Kebek
Kebek
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- Kebek
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I wish devs or mods gave at least a hint on if we can expect training mode I would even dare say soon™. I really really want it.
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Honestly even if it's breaking the rules a little bit.
I would just give camped survivor up to 25% to all emblems as a distraction reward if he has killer in his proximity for whole 2 minutes and also 2,5k BP to all categories with the same conditions. I know it's rewarding survivor for failing to escape yada yada but honestly it doesn't change anything about the gameplay for worse on either side and makes beiing camped feel far less sucky.
Both sides win, killer can play any way he wants and survivor feels less crappy and has incentive to not hook suicide.
My ideal fix honestly.
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I'd love to have them asap, even if they were just mindless gen drones. They would be the first step for finally implementing training mode.
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@Boss said:
I really dislike playing on mobile, but it suddenly got a lot more interesting now...
Suddenly I've got the same desire. I wonder why.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1455158#Comment_1455158
Yeah the discussion definitely took a turn but you wont change your mind in deathslinger even with me telling you some down right flaws. The discussion was pointless because you weren't gonna change your mind anyways.
Don't get me wrong, I see the flaws in his gameplay towards survivros. But I won't agree on any significant change until the same gameplay is adressed on survivor's side as well as I said so in copypaste of my comment on Scott's video posted here.
His gameplay is perfectly fine as long as other killers and survivors have aspects of it as well. Once we're all on even ground then we can agree on changes, so my mind can be changed, not by excuses but only by evening "fair guesses" to both sides, not just catering only one side while other suffers from same problems.
This should be good enough to close this side topic.
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@DrDeepwound said:
Arent the devs complete different teams on mobile though? Have seen mods basically say they dont even answer questions about mobile
They are but bots were originally only on mobile but then there were signs of them beiing tested on our PTB as well. That's suggesting that they might be planning on adding them to all platform as well, so I hope it's the same case for Training mode. I hope I'm right, I really really want training mode soooo much. I't been one of my biggest wishes for DBD since 2016.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1454285#Comment_1454285
I'm talking about pre cooldown nerf where she would instantly have two blinks after fatigue which gave you no room to get distance or break los especially with fatigue addons. This is the same with deathslinger as his projectile shooting so fast you cant even get behind cover.
Yes a killers power is supposed to help chases and stop loops but it shouldn't be without counter. Like oni being able to strafe in a loop can trick the survivor into moving themselves close enough to flick but that has counter, that is a mindgame. You could simply leave the loop or win the mindgame and position yourself away from him. Just like Billy's curving that can end chases quickly but that has counter.
Current nurse works exactly the same as before her recent nerf if you land you blinks, there isn't pretty much any CD time. Especially with blink recharge addons.
With the oni/billy example, I though relying on killer missing (since you're making educated guess in which directin he'll chainsaw/bambam) or prehrowing pallets to delay him is gameplay you said was uncounterable or just isn't fun. If you're in a tile where onibilly have enough space & time to make a turn and hit you, your imput is as significant as when DS is shooting at you with enough LOS.
Also, this wasn't supposed to be discussion about counterply/comparability/fairness etc of things like we've talked about so I'm stopping it now. Unless you have more to say about the main topic excuse me to no longer humor you. We've derailed long enough and I don't think it's progressive enough to be worth more time.
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Ok this discussion lasted about 8+ hours for me and I have to sleep sometimes. If anyone has any more to say and expects responces then I'll give them tomorrow. I'm happy that I've managed to bring so much attention to this topic. Thanks to all who've found time to discuss thus far and were civilised.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1454203#Comment_1454203
Ok ima start off with the fact that DS has the same problems with old nurse she became broken when you got good then thing with DS is the unreactable quickshots become more noticeable. Even a mediocre DS can make his chase really strong, once you become at least decent you can be patient and let survivors run into your shots or just get aim. It's not about the fact that they never miss it's the fact that there is no window to break los, vaults etc. This bould down to the quickshot.
The comparison from shack to DS unreactable shot doesnt even go together that's about loops and not a killers power. The question isnt even how do you mindgame it is why should you mindgame it? You can completely ignore mindgames by breaking it so why attempt something that's possible but hard. I say possible because average survivors make mistakes like that.
But if you wanna talk about both sides why does huntress still have iri head? Why havent the killer ultra rarest been nerfed? Did you know flashlight addons been useless for 3 years? We gotta keep it equal right?
How old nurse are we speaking about ? The OG nurse with base 3 blinks or old nurse as that was nerfed recently that had 2 blinks ? Since both can phase through walls and bypass all survivor defences, abilities that DS doesnt have. You can break LOS when he first hits you and has attack CD especially when he also has to reload.
Killer's power is supposed to be a tool to counter loops and if you feel like the power isn't giving you enough space to loop then it's comparable to different power that doesn't give any chance to outplay a loop. The real question is why it isn't mindgameable and is forced waste of time that lacks counters which is what your arguments againt DS are based around.
I talk about both sides from standpoint of balancing chases, not OP items or weak addons but basic mechanics. When you talk about lack of counterplay to DS you forget about things on survivors side that don't have solid counter. Both might seem unfair but also doesn't necessarily have to be.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1454099#Comment_1454099
Ah, I think we may be differing a bit on what in particular makes him hard to counter. I put almost all of the blame on the fast ADS time. If you make him telegraph that he's getting into shooting posture, that basically turns him into a Huntress. Huntress' hatchets can't really be dodged reactively when fully charged, but she needs to spend nearly three seconds moving at (I think) 80% speed and telegraphing her intention to throw before she reaches that point. For every moment she waits to throw at 80% speed, the survivor gets to build distance. And, because she's slower than a survivor, the survivor can afford to anticipate a throw and dodge a bit without her gaining distance.
As is, Deathslinger just gets 110% throughout because they can quickscope to almost entirely avoid the ADS slowdown and can even fake shots to try to gain distance. That's my problem with him. If he announces his presence with a big ol' 32m terror radius and he still finds me and lines up a shot before I can break LOS, so be it. I think it's totally legit for him to have a high chance at injuring me, just like for Huntress. So long as he is the one moving slower while my chance of dodging is very low and so long as I have a reasonable chance to avoid that situation in the first place, I'm happy.
Yes and none of that lower MM speed during ADS matter if DS or huntress already reached close enough for a safe shot. That's what would happen, counterplay would be same, slighlty less chances for shots.
I'v already said that I aprove addition of any TR change or a hum as long as a few small counterbuff come with it. His stealth aspects imao aren't as important as people make them out to be.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1454174#Comment_1454174
I will be providing videos of DS lack of counter play but I need to find one in game dont worry but I cant guarentee you will uphold your end and I think I forgot to mention your point on shack unlike DS you can break the pallet so there is counter play to shack.
I've asked for video of wraith counterplaying dropped shack pallet vs great survivor without breaking it. I won't settle for any less then fair gameplay for both sides so if your argument is based around that optimal DS can't ever miss which is unfair for survivros then I want to see counterplay for dropped shack pallet by weak killer. It's only fair that both sides have equall chances to mindgame all tiles wouldn't you say.
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@ScottJund I think this is relevant to the discussion so I'll just post copy paste of my comment on your latest video concerning guessing.
"I feel like I've impacted creation of this video quite a bit.
I would agree with you that fair guesses would be healthy for DBD if they were equalised. If there weren't things like safe tiles where survivor is always favored or things like stacked jungle gyms. If devs made gameplay fair for both sides then yes nerfs for killers that force prediction based gameplay would be deserved nerfs then. Unfortunately, survivors have large amount of overly safe tiles and setups. Once those are gone and looping can't be abused to create no-mindgame tiles then overly opressive chase killers that force prediction based gameplay would be deserving of nerfs.
Gameplay as of now isn't fair for both sides so nerfing near uncounterable / very hard to counter gameplay of killers is undeserved. Some changes can be done (like the fix for M2 spam to DS or no idication of phasing for spirit) but complete power change just can't happen now."
As stated in the comment, I can see your point about killer's prediction beiing much more favored then survivors. But as stated I can't agree that these prediction based killers should be changed until problem of unfair gameplay from survivor's POV is also adressed.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1453971#Comment_1453971
You could say the same thing about huntress because she has a windup its holding her back. If she had insta throw it would he op. You make it sound like giving survivors a chance is a bad thing.
I wont stop the video requests because if you give me solid counterplay showcased in a video to prove your point then that's all you need.
You make it sound like DS's spear is as lethal and snowbally as huntresses's hatches. If you give DS too much windup and other drawbacks on shooting he'll eventually need to have his spears deal damage themselfs and then he can just be reworked into skin for huntress.
Once you give me video solid proof that I asked for then I'll give you yours. Seems like no one is getting their video in the end.
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Only if there is a vial that causes survivor to gain ability to instantly eat the killer ;)
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1454036#Comment_1454036
It would most certainly not negate the slowdown for ADS time. Right now Deathslinger moves at 75% speed in ADS but he can ADS in .15 seconds. Let's say you increase the ADS time by 2 seconds, which is still less time than it takes for Huntress to fully charge a hatchet. 75% speed for two seconds means a survivor running directly away from you would gain 2m of distance. It would take a 115% killer 10 seconds to make up 2m of distance on a 110% killer. A Deathslinger now basically has no slowdown for shooting and gives the survivor basically no chance to dodge. With this change they'd give survivors a chance to dodge and would also lose distance as they're waiting to shoot. If a survivor manages to break LOS or bait a miss that 115% doesn't mean much; he's already lost 10+ seconds of distance versus 4.0.2 Deathslinger. Even if they can't break LOS, though, the survivor still has the ability to dodge a bit without Deathslinger having enough speed to close the gap.
Then there are the other strong bits, like the fact that he can't just quickscope you if he sees you running to a strong window because he'd have to slow down and wait a bit before he can fire. Windows would actually be useful again.
A bigger and fixed terror radius would be a big difference too imo. His current TR makes it hard to determine how close he is, and it's been buggy in my experience. You'll see slingers with no Undetectable perks and no M&A that still give extremely late Michael-esque audio cues. Fixing that to make distance easier to gauge, first of all, and secondly just making it 32m would be outstanding. One of the most annoying things about him now is when you're forced to repair a gen without much cover. Imagine those new Autohaven gens that just spawn in dead zones or gens in the middle of The Game, for example. He can just walk around a corner with M&A and be within chain range before you even hear the TR. Getting a bit of heads up means you can find that pallet.
You seem to be a confident Deathslinger, but I'm also a confident survivor :) I think this would give survivors a lot more tools to use against him and if you feel the reverse, that says to me he'd be in a better spot with these changes. Killers should feel to survivors that they have a chance against them, and killers should feel extremely powerful to killers. Both sides should feel like they have a chance to use their skill to win.
Sorry, I've overspoke, it would not completely negate the slowdown but I can outplay a lot of loops as 115% already, if DS kept his power as it is and became 115% with just a few sec on the ADS he would gain far more then he would lose. If you think that good slingers would ADS preemptively so that you can reach window they you're wrong, they would just walk around, gain more distance with their newfound 115% and again forced survivor into position where they have to make a prediction or get speared. And good slingers would hit as many spears as before since it's the projectile speed that makes it unreactable not the ADS.
I've tested slinger playing him with perks that increase TR radious (for the memes) to 32m and more. People still played the same, waited at gens due to greed and didn't know which direction I was coming from or just got forced into bad positions through my movement. A few good players would probably capitalize on it and start running earlier but that also means you aren't sitting on gens when I just migh be walking around which is good for me.
I feel like it would be overall buff that wouldn't adress the issues people have with his counterplay in any capacity while making him more straightforward and easy to play which I find boring. As of now, I feel like when I face DS I can use my experience with him to battle him better thus I have a feeling of that my skill matters. Pity that when I play survivor I don't see too many slingers, far too many M1 killers for my taste so very few chances to practise. At least I can still have decent amount of spirit games, she's luckily popular.
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@lucid4444 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1454017#Comment_1454017
I think it is a drastic change, and maybe the most simple change is to make ADS take .6s or 1s to pull the gun up, but make the reload faster or something to compensate.
I agree about the gens, I'm still learning all the perks, and I finally tried out SBFL which was a lot of fun. But like you said, gens got rushed. I've unlocked corrupt intervention and will try running that. The only snowball I've seen playing him was with SBFL or going back and forth between two survivors who keep getting unhooked. Then again, most games are down to the wire which makes things even more fun!
It's tough to judge how would such ADS windup feel in match. I just can't say without playing a few matches with such change.
I wish you the best of luck in your matches, hope you're having as much fun with DS as I do.
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@immortalls96 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1454001#Comment_1454001
Well from what a friend of mine on PC says theres two things consoles have over pc..skill checks are apparently smoother which is shocking, but also that controllers give survivors way easier movement than a keyboard , allowing extremely sharp jukes
Then I'll only say one thing. I can't wait for crossplay to vs some good console players.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1453989#Comment_1453989
What about this would make him so much easier to play? If the max range is really that beneficial, then every DS main on here talking about how hard shots are to land at a distance is clearly full of it.
The movement speed will help, but I think it'll be somewhat offset by the fact that survivors will be able to be a bit stealthier against him and they'll be better able to start chases in more favorable positions. It'd also be somewhat offset by preventing his M2 spam and making him actually take some time to ADS, because he moves slower when aiming and won't be able to gain distance as reliably by baiting a dodge.
Your suggestion involved mainly 115% which by itself for power as leathal as DS's is very strong buff. It would completely negate those 1-2s that would be given for him as ADS and he'd still come on top in all other scenarions which wouldn't even require using redeemer.
Longer and stronger chain for longshots also means it's easier to outplay longer loops which he already can do really well. Bigger TR wouldn't be as impactfull as you think since high ranked survivors won't leave gens until they really need to so you could still get abotu the same distance on them unless they decided to run always whe they hear start of your TR which no one does since it makes gen times ineffective.
Your suggestion is just too much, it makes him easier and faster while giving him many benefits and nerfing usefull but not needed mechanics. My dude you would buff him with that and make him unfair and boring to vs. And that's coming from DS main who considers him fine now.
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@lucid4444 said:
I posted this in the feedback & suggestions forum, but I'll say it here - just switch the reload mechanic to before shooting... unfortunately making him just like huntress. Hold right click to wind up your gun and aim down sights, once it's ready you can left click to fire or release right click to unscope if you need to swing instead. After firing you don't need to reload, you'll just wind up for the next shot.
This might give survivors TOO much time to react, so the "wind up" animation could be shorter, or he moves at 115% to compensate.. i don't know. I think it's worth testing out, and I wonder if that's how he was originally designed (looking at the addons that benefit you for looking down the sights)
BTW @Kebek (I love your videos) and you don't run M&A - this is a side thread but what is your opinion on that? Since playing I've felt like it's necessary but now I'm wondering if it's been a crutch this whole time, and I need another slowdown or snowball perk.
Ahh thank you, it means a lot.
Tbh I don't like changes that are so drastic that he would need 115% MM speed to compensate. I find that 110% killer that are hard to play but have very strong power are already minority so reworking good 110% killer into any level of good/bad 115% is something I'm against.
I find M&A good DS perk but it plays into his strenghts which is good chase killer. He lacks in pressure/mobility so running perks that help pressure gens and give me info about them without wasting time imao are best choice for him from my personall playstyle view. You can run M&A and do just fine but when I was running build with M&A and SBFL I've encountered several good SWF teams who just rushed gens and even when my chases were very short they could share info when I slugged and disperse so no stealth hits for me. This game that massive advantahe and I just couldn't pressure gens enoug so I decided to look into builds that help with gen defence as for me that was the biggest weakness.
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@immortalls96 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1453947#Comment_1453947
Much like demo slinger has his high points at specific tiles, but that isnt enough to make it in today's dbd..I reviewed your channel..for one..as a fellow creator I wish you luck and I'll admit those were good shots in that video..however..the game was essentially a 3v1 as kate fed you..and that was just 1 thing..they still managed 3 gens even with all of it..I'm willing to change my mind but maybe its be cause controller is a huge boost to survivors ability to move but..I'm not trying to fight about critiques
Ty, I wish you luck as well.
I'm not sure which game you watched by single match can not be good represenation of what all he can do. I don't post just the top best shots ever games but games that I had fun, show someting interesting to learn at least once or a few other reasons. Also my build is based around defending favorable areas so losing fisrt few gens doesn't matter too much as long as I've made progress in pallets, hook states etc.
I play on PC and don't know how good survivors with controller are so I can't judge that.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1453953#Comment_1453953
I'd be happy with a bit of a buff to him, especially if it raises the skill cap. My issue with him definitely isn't the strength overall. I just hate chasing through deep wounds VFX and I hate how limited counterplay is if he shows up when you're not on a favorable tile.
I think these changes would make him better overall, but not insanely much so. It would punish misses and allow for survivors to better dodge his shots, so there'd be more counterplay and he'd have to be more selective and precise with his shots. He'd also be easier to use stealth against and survivors would have more warning that he's coming. On the other hand, though, he'd be better in conventional loops with his increased movement speed and would be able to pull off some despicable shots with the increased range.
From there they can just tweak him based on how strong he turns out to be.
You probably don't realise but you suggestion would for one made him 10x times easier to play and possibly OP. Definetly boring to play too.
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@ScottJund said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1453913#Comment_1453913
You're right, Deathslinger has infinite shots.
Just like huntress, I haven't heard at least that hey put a cap on how many shots she can reload. You see how silly you sound.
EDIT - Just remember about this. You were saying XD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-We7gi9Ef0 -
@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1453937#Comment_1453937
It did require aiming what? You had to aim it at the chest I believe but still none the less aiming. The point of the comparison was to compare insta shooting/blinding without input from survivors or killers not there drawbacks but I get why you brought it up.
The windup would atleast give you time to make it to windows/vaults and who said we have to be in the open all the time now you have a window for more counterplay sure you might not be able to dodge in the open vs a good one but now you can get into los breakers instead of instantly being shot when you try to get to it.
Another thing is I'm failing to see all the counterplau you speak of if you could provide me video evidence of you consistently outplaying a DS and explaining how you did it that would be nice but we both know you arent doing that.
Again the insta blind comparison was to compare the lack of input from the killer or survivor when they are hit by them.
If by aiming you mean click a flashlight that's premanently active without any projectile without any drawbacks or skill to use then yes, it required aiming.
The windup I've said many times would lessen your chanes for shots, what skill did survivor use to reach a window before DS could windup his ADS to shoots, none. That't not counterplay, that's game mechanics holding killer back.
Can you stop with the "show me video proof of X spam", even if I did you would DISMISS IT as luck. I can make strawmans like that too, can you show me video of wraith outplaying survivor inside the killer shack wtih dropped pallet and landing a hit on him without breaking the pallet ? No, well that's unfair and killer shack should be reworked to be mindgameable after dropping pallet, no couterplay, it's ufair, no interaction. Don't be silly.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Massively nerf ADS time, somewhat nerf missed shot cooldown, and remove the ability to deep wound healthy survivors that break free from the chain. Bump him up to the 115% movement speed / 32m TR model. Fix his TR so you actually get reliable information about how close he is. Increase his chain length and make the chain harder to break.
Edit: After reading the rest of the comments I like the idea of giving him a slight cooldown after cancelling his M2 as well.
Watch out or you just might get what you're asking for.
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@immortalls96 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1453575#Comment_1453575
It's impossible for death slinger to get downs over safe pallets was my point and it very much is..that has a larger effect than youd think..hitting a few nice shots in cheeky areas is not enough to convince me..for the same reasons I dont believe nurse is the best killer anymore..think what youd like of me..but unless results are consistent i dont see it as proof..because as i iterated..the game is in shambles..
Do you know that DS can get easy hit throuh shack pallet in almost all scenarion except when it's from the inside which you can evade by forcing the chase to the outside before it's dropped ? Very few killers can beat dropped shack pallet but DS is one of them. Not even talking about the large amount of plays you can consisntely do to get hits/downs before it drops.
His pallet countering abilities are actually very consistent when played correctly by the slinger. Skill is the defining factor.
Also your opinions are your alone, I won't think less of you if you think that nurse isn't best killer. You do you, I'm just trying to show you my view and maybe teach you something that could help you see hidden strenghts of killers like DS.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1453765#Comment_1453765
The comparison isnt random it's based on the instant action where you shoot/blind in an instant which is un reaxtable that's what I'm trying to compare. Yeah and you are right I would dismiss it as them missing. Thats because they missed what tricky movement can you so run straight and dodge last minute you can always just be patient and wait for the survivors to do something and learn their movement pattern.
If he had a windup it would be the same as a fully charged huntress hatchet you would be able know that hes most likely gonna shoot so you dont dodge gor nothing like when he attempts to zone you. And what are these so called interactions? Ads spamming isnt interactions.
Yes and instablind didn't require aiming, predicting, correct reeling, proper times to shoot and had no punishments, cooldowns, slowdons or anything. Deathslinger has many limitations that instablind never had and needs skill to use unlike instablinds which were piss easy and anyone who played single match of survivor could do them. If you find someone who can play deathslinger on god level like for example zubatlel on their first game let me know. It's overall just strawman argument to evade the reality that both DS and instablind had only 1 thing in common and that is that the're both fast. But beiing fast doesn't mean they're the same.
Windup wouldn't change counterplay as I've explained before. Are you trying to tell me that it's possible to dodge fully charged hatchet in the open vs good huntress but it's not possible to dodge a spear in the open fired by good slinger ? Because you keep saying that higher ADS time would somehow be good for increasing the counterplay yet you fail to explain properly how.
ADS spamming I've adressed many times as someting I want to be changed as well so stop bringing it up please.
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@ScottJund said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1453741#Comment_1453741
See I don't get that, you basically just said "blindly guess when he is going to shoot and the dodge before that." You're saying the counter is to see into the future. You have absolutely no idea when he is going to shoot. He might not shoot at all, because you guessed wrong five times and then he just M1s you or zoned you into a place where you can't dodge.
To your example of hatchets, yes, they are unreactable once its fully charged. However, the Huntress is drastically slowed and also has to wind up the charge, and also has an audio cue when the charge is finished. Its not even remotely comparable. The comparison would be if Huntress could instantly throw a fully charged hatchet at any time.
What is the "optimal time to shoot" as a DS? The DS can shoot whenever he has line of sight to you, which is going to happen very, very often. You are going to make 20 guesses a second every time he's in line of sight?
To me no, the survivor's experience is irrelevant when being chased by a Deathslinger. Almost every good survivor I know shares the sentiment. You can understand how Deathslinger works to the very bone, but the fact is you have to make a ridiculous number of guesses per second the Deathslinger can see you, and eventually you are going to lose one of those guesses, with "eventually" being seconds.
Deathslinger is the only killer in the game that zones people by literally existing, and I think that's silly.
I know what you mean but the consept of "guessing when killer is going to use his power and the dodge before that" was in the game long before DS. You do the same vs nurse, you know she can let her power go (once it's charged) at any time but you don't know where and you can't react to it, predicting where she's going and gaing distance off it is her counterplay, on short ranges you just get hit like vs DS. Same with spirit, you need to know how her phase works (while unijured ofc) and correctly read if she for example when you vault the window is going to go around or wait before it for you to juke it by going back via slow vault. To lesser extent this is what mindgames - moonwalking, baiting pallet etc is all about, none of these skillful strategies have 100% succes rate because it depends on which player reach which better. DS just increases the amount you have ot predict which is what his power is about.
With huntress yes you have windup, slower MM speed and a few CDs also audio cues but those just don't change counterplay from survivor POV. It's either huntress has enough distance on you to make a safe shot no matter what you do or she doesn't thus she risks the possibilty of making a wrong prediction and beiing punished by her CDs. The reason why there are so many cues/slowdons/CDs is because of how was and how many she can thorw in a row and how snowbally they can be. DS has to relod and lose distance each time he lands a hit, his relies on fast ADS giving him more chances to hit. If his shots were more leathal I would agree that he needs more CDs/slowdowns/audio cues but they aren't.
Optimal time to shoot is something that varies case to case and is the hard part about predicting. I've said a few times that DS's power is based around having large amount of opportunities for shootsing. If you're in the open he has all the time he wants for an optimal shot, he'll shoot either instantly if he's confident or waits to get closer and spams M2 to gain distance to make his shot easeir. Then there are tight shots when you're catching up to a survivor around a wall and he's one wall from reaching a pallet but you have like 1s to make a shots before you lose LOS and they'll be able to get to a pallet. Optimal time to shoots there is in that 1s to predict that survivors won't dodge and make a quick scope to the perfect spot. You don't have time to wait and see if survivor is going to dodge since if you wait even 0,5s and he doesn't dodge you won't be able to shoot him and he'll reach the pallet. That's where the prediction happen and survivor needs to know if DS has long enough window to watch & shoot or if he'll just shoot to catch you off guard.
You can have an opinon as many others do, that's fine by me. My view is that you aren't supposed to make large number of guesses per second, just one at the perfect time. If you get in the open, sucks but that's a place you don't want to be in vs good slinger just like good huntress or nurse. Once they all hold their power you still need to predict them all if you want to survive. It's just that for DS it's faster and he can force such scenarios more of then which is his main strength.
I don't really expect people to view him differently since most survivors want to play reactive gameplay but I like killers like him and enjoy predictive gameplay.
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Probably Oni, he's fun and not as punishing as DS.
If you can't land your shots on DS which are more precise then hunress and require more finesse you would probably just frustrate yourself. But if you want, it's generally considered that Deathskinger is one of the most fun killers to play, if you don't mind sucking for a while or for ages until you, excuse my expression "gid gut" then try deathslinger.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Literally just remove ADS spam and he's perfectly fine. His issue is zoning, not counter-play. Fighting him in a maze tile or indoors can actually be fun but his free zoning gets ridiculous because even a bad Slinger can do it. You're forced to 'dodge' every time he hits ADS but if you choose not to he can just fire and get a free hit. Very skillful and fair amirite? I play the Slinger too so I am ashamed but dang its fun getting free Kills :^)
Also there's no real way to dodge his projectile. Why? Because if you've played an fps before its pretty fricking easy to hit Survivors with the Redeemer. If you're missing because the Survivors are 'dodging' you, I'm sorry but maybe instead of hitscan FPS games you should go play projectile based FPS games. You'll learn how to properly aim lmao
I agree (as qutie a few times before) with adding CD to his M2 cancel to prevent the M2 spam, that legitimate issue that is fair to be adjusted.
I also agree to an extent that you can't dodge his projectile if you are trying to dodge to through reacting. The only way to dodge it is via predicting, if the redeemer was hitscan I would agree that there's no counterplay and no matter what you do you'll get hit and there isn't counterplay but luckily the projectile even when very fast can be predicted and thus dodged.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1453680#Comment_1453680
Like I said give it a windup like huntress and next time dont dismiss what I say I gave an example of og instablinds to compare what it feels like to verse deathslinger.
I told you about to 1v1 because since there is counterplay like you claim can you show it off or better yet record your games against a deathslinger and show us. A windup of 1-2 seconds could give us more information to work on and when to dodge and be cant instantly unads so the zoning requires more skill.
The point of this is to add more interaction between killer and survivor instead of being insta shot.
Instablinds didn't have CD for missing, one of many many differences between them and redeemer. Random comparison is random.
Any footage I would give you would be dissmised as DS missing and survivor just beiing lucky. You can easily go and watch hours of DS footage and whenever DS misses someone who had tricky movement or did seemingly random dodge and DS aimed at the place where survivor was 1s before is the counterplay I'm talking about. It's players beiing tricky and making predictions that you so easily dissmis as luck and DS missing.
Ok, let's imagine DS has 1-2s windup. You see him charge his windup and now he can shoot, what will you do ? Dodge or what ?, he can still shoot as fast as before you added the windup so dodging is as effective as it was before, you have as much info as before, counterplay didn't change. Only thing that changed is that DS can't no longer do tight shots around corners which has nothing to do with any counterplay from survivors POV.
Interactions are there, you just ignore them.
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@ScottJund said:
Probably the only thing I can think of is adding a rapidly stacking slowdown that also quickly expires every time you ADS, just so there is at least some risk to the free zoning you get but even then, that doesn't even really fix anything does it? The threat of him quickscoping is always there and always faster than human reaction time so honestly I have no idea how to fix it.
Firstly I appreciate you taking time to respond.
People have made a few suggestion to add a slight-moderate CD when you cancel M2 to prevent free M2 spam thus a part of the forced zoning. I've mostly agreed since such change is good as M2 spam isn't really something I support and I wouldn't miss it from his base kit.
Now I've wondered if you have any problem with him as people say "not having counterplay" since his shot can't be reacted to. If you do then all other killers that have powers that survivors can't react to also need fixes which includes killers like huntress as when she charges her hatchet it's undodgeable via reacting. She can create the so called "lose-lose" scenarion just like DS but he can do so at different times and a bit more consistently which is what is supposed to be his biggest strenght.
My opinion is that he has counterplay and it's based of predictions. You need to know when are the optimal times for DS to shoots and react slightly before he decides it's time to shoots. I know that's very hard to do and can be very unrealiable but I don't see it as a bad thing since he has many weaknesses to counterweight it and survivors experince actually matters since it increases the odds of corectly predicting DS's shot. Some people (like me) also enjoy such risky playstyles so the subject of it beiing boring gameplay is kind of silly to me when everyone has diffrent definition of fun.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1453587#Comment_1453587
The thread showed that you cant counter a good DS any other words any DS that has solid aim and can get used to quick scoping it has no counter. If you find that silly I guess but yky can always do the 1v1 against a good slinger and show the counter play that you claim.
And the quick shot you dont want to be nerfed is the exact problem I get that's his strongest ability but it doesnt require any input from the survivors how do you think that's fair? You never outplay DS he just misses. Honestly DS gives the same input to survivors as old instablind.
First off, I don't want to really discuss balance here as I said but ways people who want DS to have more counterplay to suggest what kind of counterplay they want and changes how to reach it.
Now for the rest, quick scopes are a way for DS to get tight shots around corners, adding wind up for his ADS limits his ability to land hits with tight time frame and doesn't change current counterplay whatsoever. If he has time to raise his gun for his shot, it will still be super fast and you can't dodge it if he aims it correctly.
Imput from survivors is the prediction they need to make, I won't go too deep into that since it would take ages and you'd probably dismiss it as guessing so it would be waste of writing. No offence but I don't want here discussion about how counterplay works currently and if it's fair but what counterplay you want and how to reach it via your suggested changes.
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1453234#Comment_1453234
Looking back doesn't give you any information. You can't anticipate, much less dodge, a quickscope. You can zig-zag but that allows Deathslinger to quickly catch up to you and M1, since he's walking straight the entire time. Plus zig-zagging doesn't prevent him from hitting you, it just makes it a little harder to hit you.
Looking back actually does give you needed info to counter DS. It tells you how far he's from you which indicates for you how hard it's to land that shots and how much travel time it will have. Based on all that and much more you'll make a prediction if he'll shot at you at random time (doing very slight zig zags to make him less confident in his pre-aiming for quickscope) for which you need to predict when he'll do so and start the dodge a smidgen before he fully commits thus evading his shot.
It's very difficult and there are so many factors you need to take into accont but that's how prediction based gameplay that he shares with nurse or spirit works. Knowing your opponet is essencial for a correct prediction so if you've never played DS and don't fully realise ideal times for his shots he'll outplay you in almost every scenario.
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@azame said:
I seen a post from someone that said keep instant ads but a 1-2 second wind up but in addition to that he cant instantly unads until that windup before he shoot.
Also had zubat do a 1v1 with another person that Claimed deathslinger had counterplay and the outcome was the longest chase was 30 second 1st to 2nd hit.
I've already made a few responces that I can agree that CD for ADS cancel to prevent M2 spam would be good change but any all other suggestions to somehow limit quickscopes are imao a bad change since they don't change the counterplay but only limit DS's opportunities to land a shot without any action from survivors.
I've seen that thread and it's one of those silly 1v1 me to prove a point. Only thing that it proved is that if played by a great killer DS is very strong chase killer, not that he doesn't have counterplay.
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@immortalls96 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1453394#Comment_1453394
But your forgetting one important detail...on top of everything else hes the only slow killer with almost no pallet punish..if the loop has any safety at all a pallet is a force field while huntress can burn pallets for free..Sure it's possible to punish with slinger but every tree, every rock, every obstacle is a potential free get out for your target..huntress it's your hit, your damaged, no middle man..no extra steps..now slinger has some very cheeky shots he can do like haddonfield fences but that's about all he has over her
My man, it is clear you don't know enough about DS, no offence but he can punish pallet pretty hard, even some of the safest ones like shack can be outplayed even after it's dropped. Not many killers can outplay pallets as much as DS can. Yeah there are some that are really hard or even a few that he can't outplay but he can definetly get hits over pallets.
Also to your note on on rubble that breaks the chain. Good slingers get robbed of their hits very rarely by trees etc since they know how to reel in a way so that trees etc can't break your chain and mainly when to go for shots so that there's as few obstacles for the reel in.
Another note on the cheeky hits, he's the god of them. You can get insane hits through walls and if you know the techs for them you can even use many holes for not just chain breaks but for downs.
You really should go watch good slingers to understand where I'm coming from. I don't really want to self advertise but I'm actually rather high ranked slinger in the leaderboard and I've recently made a channel so if you're interested why I find DS to be really good killer you can check out my gameplay. I'm not a god DS becasue my playstyle is to go for as many shots as I can affor since I loves shooting even at lost of lower hit consistency and risk of missing but still my gameplay is pretty good.
Here is the link if you're interested:
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I think DH is fine, it can be kind of BS sometimes but overall it gives distance when you need it on certain conditions like all exhaustion perks. I definetly like it more then perks like DS that support horrible plays without any thinking, timing or skill.
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@immortalls96 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1453362#Comment_1453362
See..theres the issue..time..that's the crux..the one weakness a killer cant afford..see trapper for reference..any killer that isnt time efficient or have good slowdown will just..drop off hard at the top..issue is..I have no idea how to improve him without adding a pressure tool of sorts
See, even when his reeling, attack CD etc takes a while compared to like huntress who chains hits very fast, he saves time by getting them earlier then she ever could. In the end he gain more time overall because he gets more chances to earn hits before huntress can so he's actully time efficient. Ofc that applies when you are good with your shots and don't miss much otherwise you lose a lot of time but you can spread the damage more thanks to deep wounds buyin you time.
His preassure come from mainly 2 things, you either are god at chases and down people so fast they just aren't able to keep up with you or you defend part of the map where gens aren't too spread so you aren't as punished by your slower MM speed and CDs. He has ways to apply very strong pressure even without mobility but it all boils down to how fast can you find survivors and how fast can you down them. If you're great DS swith good perks and capitalise on all your chances even SWF death squads are beatable. Ofc a lot RNG comes into playing DBD, the map, the loops spawns, the gen spawns etc so that affect things just like with all killers.
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@immortalls96 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1453271#Comment_1453271
The slinger isnt clown tier..but he falls apart because his chase tool takes too much time..and no msp pressure tool at all..all hes really got is his stealth
His chase tools are more consistent then around 80% of the killer roster in terms of getting hits. They themself might not be fast but their utility is very high if used correctly. Paired with perks to cover his weaknesess and good decision making can make even the best survivors struggle hard to beat good slinger.
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@PureHostility said:
As someone who loves DS but understands how he can be annoying to verse the same way spirit is, here are 2 things I would introduce.
Longer reload on missed shots and chain breaks, add a buff to speed up a reload on successful hit while reeling in.
And 2nd thing, to make being in ADS actually have a point instead of 24/7 quick scoping. Make it so, chain has very low durability if quick scoping. Saying in ads increases endurance/durability of the chain, so survivor has to struggle harder to get free.
Thus, quick scope would have ~1/4 of the current chain durability, good for short range shots to secure survivor just around the corner, while fully charged ADS increase to 150-175% of current value.
Optionally make a "forced lullaby" at 24m, similar to the Huntress, it doesnt need to be as intrusive nor audible for the killer. Make it also be decreased by the addons that lower TR but not affected by the m&a.
I would argue that first change would scare off new players trying to learn him but I presonally don't see it as a bad thing overall. It just makes it harder to recover as him if you miss a few shots which is kind of fine imao especially if he would be compensated by faster reload on succesful hits. Nice trade off for good players but feels a bit like what happened to nurse.
Your idea about quickscoping is good but you need to understand that if you make his quickscope chain too weak it's creating a scenario where DS has to hold his aim to even get a chance for a reel in before survivors just run out of LOS making outplaying windows/loops near impossible since survivors will just run out of your LOS before you get enough charges for the reel in. It would need a lot of testing so that it's not punishing DS for having good reactions, aim and knowledge of properl reeling around loops which has very narrow timing and depends on every charge the chain has. It would need a lot of work to not make him useless and in the end it just might not change anything or make him worst killer in the game if it removes his chance to outplay loops. Overall it's very creative idea but it would need a lot of work to make it balanced.
The forced lullaby appear a few times and I agree that such mechanic would be fine addition to DS's gameplay but needs a few small compensatio buffs since he's losing out on a few stealth hits he would otherwise get.
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@immortalls96 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1453230#Comment_1453230
Billy maybe..he was way more vulnerable than people assumed..but..how dare you challange my doctor XD
Just an example, I'm certain great docs are very hard to loop but doc's power is still in my eyes at least, weaker anti-loop tool then DS's redeemer. I'm not a god doc but I play DS pretty well and he can counter quite a few loops if you know the techs.
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@thrawn3054 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1453244#Comment_1453244
I don't know if you would need to buff him. Huntress's hum is pretty quiet. I would assume a Slinger one would be as well.
I'm not really asking for huge buff since hum is quite small change but something small like extra 1-2s on mending or 0,25s lower CD on miss etc. Depends on how much worse it would make his approach, if by a lot then bigger buff, if not very much then a small one.
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@MeltingPenguins said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1453215#Comment_1453215
True.
And... I main Deathslinger. He's one of the few killers I can out-manoeuvre as survivor, cause I got a decent feeling for when I'll have to dodge to the side or stop and move a step back/do a 90° turn even without looking behind me
I'm by no means good, but I have managed to hold my ground against some green and a red rank (only to each time run straight into them the moment I think I'm safe... )
That's the thing with DS, to counter him (via predictions) you need to know how he thinks/plays. Many survivors are clueless against him since they've never played him enough to know how he works so they don't know how he operates thus can't be in his mind to make any solid movements at correct times.
People who've mained/played DS enough have much better understanding of whe he'll shoot since they know the optimal times when they would shoot themselfs. Ofc it dosen't suddently make you god when vsing deathslingers but it helps a lot.
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@thrawn3054 said:
I'd give him a hum radius like Huntress. Not as far as her radius. Maybe 32 meters. My only real issue is with the M&A Slingers. His already small TR with the really quiet music pretty much makes him a stealth killer.
True, he's very stealthy right now for killer with a good chase power. Still if his TR was raised or hum was added some buff would be required to counterweight it.
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@Veen said:
A terror radius?
It's suble, you need to hear well. Still I wouldn't be against increasing his TR if some buffs came to counterweight such nerf.
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@MusicNerd_TC said:
While you say not to discuss viability, slinger is far from uncounterable or OP. He has strong 1v1, but is slow and has no map pressure. He is a strong low tier to a light mid tier killer in my opinion. Slinger has many counters, his counters are pretty similar to clown. Pre drop pallets, or loop them normally. Slinger can't get you with his gun on most loops in the game, even if he can see over them. Looking behind you can also help, and if you're going to bring up his small terror radius, use spine chill. Also slinger is one of the tallest characters in the game, meaning survivors can see him over loops, but sometimes slinger can't making mindgames hard with him.
I agree he has counterplay and isn't OP. It's very hard to pull of counterplay but still a counterplay. Good slingers imao can make him high B tier or even A tier if they godly with him. It boils down to experience of each side and which one reads the other better + good decision making overall.
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@immortalls96 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1453209#Comment_1453209
Kill rates arnt really reliable in today's dbd dont you think? The matchmaking is a disaster and all the numbers will be looking higher than normal
I see your point but I've faced some god tier level survivors with DS a few times and they had real trouble beating me. They've lasted quite well (based on which one of us predicted better) but still managed to catch them pretty fast overall. At least much faster then the likes of doc or billy would.
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@HectorBrando said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1453107#Comment_1453107
Yeah but less than 6m shouldnt be easily dodgeable, he is 110 ms its not that easy to get to that distance in loops, it would be similar to Huntress in the sense that at 6 meters its almost impossible to dodge her in open space but in loops its still manegeable, being easier than Huntress at 6 meters is a trade from being unable to hit past 18 meters like her.
I dont know maybe you are right and it needs to be something else, in any case they can always try internally several options and then chose the one they believe its the better.
Reasonable but since he's not as lethal as huntress overall, mainly more consistent then her, beiing pretty much unable to earn hits 10m+ would need to come with some mobility or stall potencial as counterbuff since heightening his chase potencial would just make him broken chase wise at that point so that wouldn't be an option.
It'll be interesting if devs eventually change something about him if anything to say the least.
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@MeltingPenguins said:
People, learn to adjust to playing against different killers.
All these threads on 'alter this killer cause they have no counterplay' read as if you are saying 'please make all killers the exact same so I don't have to change my M.O. when playing survivor'
(you get the same thing the other way round from killer mains too... what the bloody blazes...)
That's what I think too. I can agree with some of them to a point, he's got very different playstyle if you want to properly counter his power. It requires you to make predictions or deny him LOS, both beiing pretty hard when vsing good DS.
Still, asking them what they don't like and make compromises will only help DBD's health in the long run, so here I am.