Kaitsja
Kaitsja
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There isn't a perk out there that hard counters tunneling. Perks like BT and DS act as deterrants. They exist to deter the killer from tunneling, but they don't stop the killer from doing so. Sure, it's a monumental waste of their time but you aren't getting to do anything else but be chased which is kind of boring.
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@Trickstaaaaa said:
Well there goes the artist fame and glory lol. Kind of reminds me of what they did to the trickster... Like a couple of weeks later they announced that the resident evil chapter was going to get released. But I actually think the artist lost her fame even more quickly than the trickster, like she was popular on the day she got released, but pretty much everyone has forgotten about her. Despite her not being weak.
In my opinion, that's because anti-loop killers are boring to play against as survivors and they're boring to play as since you deny the only skillful interaction survivors have.
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@MrCalac123 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2694858#Comment_2694858
Deathslinger got BUTCHERED and I have yet to see anybody who approved of it besides the most staunch Deathslinger haters.
This is the problem, they make changes but are so bull headed about it that even when everyone HATES the changes, they refuse to budge. It's borderline childish, NO ONE wanted Hillbilly to have the overheat mechanic.
The overheat mechanic is useless unless you're actively trying to overheat the chainsaw. That aside, people wanted Billy to have a mechanic that would stop him from infinitely zooming around the map.
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@NatzAshe said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2685208#Comment_2685208
Ugh.. Apparent surv main who haven't ever played killer seriously. Tunneling is a tactic to get MORE kills because the gens are slower after removing a survivor. NOT tunneling often results in 1k that you blabb about, or less.
I have 800 hours on this game. I get tunneled pretty frequently. By time the killer gets their first hook on me, 2 gens are done. They tunnel and lose the remaining 3 gens and the gates are 99'd by time they get their second hook on me. If they do manage to kill me, the other three survivors are already inside the exit gate.
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I used to prevent this exact problem before DS got nerfed by tunneling for DS. Tunnel the survivor, down them and pick them up. If they DS then let them run off and heal. If they don't DS, drop them and leave them slugged.
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If they do it immediately after being hooked, killer is camping.
If they're getting close to second stage and they start waving rapidly/fake yeeting, then it means "Come get me". That's how I interpret it anyway. Too often players will just be left to die on hook.
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@Viamont Given that NOED is primarily a crutch perk used to secure an endgame snowball, I'm inclined to disagree with it being fine.
Survivors aren't too lazy to do bones; they simply don't have the luxury of doing bones. Even in low MMR, killers want to eliminate one survivor as fast as possible, so they tunnel. The person being tunneled doesn't have time to do bones, and if they're solo queue there's no way for them to know if other survivors are doing bones.
Being preventable doesn't mean that survivors shouldn't know it's in play before someone gets hit with it.
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@Marc_123 said:
NOED is fine. I´m also often surprised by it - but hey.
Perk Small Game has a number how many totems are done and it pings when you are near and look at a totem. That´s good.
I always cleansed them because of the points (and NOED) - has changed since boons.
But to cleanse totems as you come around the map during the game is really not that hard.
If you are afraid of it - cleanse the totems by yourself. And over time you really get to learn the totem spots at the maps...
The problem with doing bones is that killers of varying skill ranges are aiming to eliminate one survivor as fast as possible. In a 3v1, you don't have the luxury of doing bones.
You also don't have the luxury of doing bones if you're being chased for 3 gens. Being afraid of NOED and wanting it to be fair are two very different things.
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@jacindazs said:
There should be some penalization, if killer hooks same surv twice in row. Or maybe not after 2nd hook, but definitely if killer tunnel one person until third hook.
Meanwhile I am writing this comment, I wait in lobby after nutshell game. I was tunneled by consol player with lags. 5000 points for game and 10 minutes waiting in lobby until my friends finish this trash game. He ignore others, he ignore everything. Just brainless tunneling.
The devs are not interested in penalizing killers for tunneling. Why use the stick when you can provide the carrot instead? There should be something to incentivise killers to go for the rescuer rather than the unhooked survivor.
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While NOED may not be OP, and it may not be completely unbalanced, that doesn't mean it couldn't use tweaks that would make it fairer overall.
In the grand scheme of things, this is a relatively small ask given that the killer gets a speed boost and an insta-down that lasts until the hex is found and broken. All that changes is you don't get that element of surprise anymore.
Survivors know from the moment the killer gets their third stack of devour that they're exposed. They know that when they're completely marked by Ghost Face that they're exposed. They know when they're in the terror radius for Starstruck that they're exposed. This change would just bring it in line with other abilities and perks that apply the exposed status effect.
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@Starrseed said:
It already is balanced cause you can prevent it before it even activates.
It's already not a perk 80%of the game but the little surprise is nice to get these cocky body blockers
I'm inclined to disagree about it being balanced because you can prevent it before it even activates. Most of the time, in my experience anyway, the final gen pops mid-chase and the unlucky survivor gets hit by NOED.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2676727#Comment_2676727
Yeah, no. Not good enough to force end a game on me I don't want over yet.
If two people DC and you want out so bad, you can go right ahead and DC right after them if you feel that passionately about quitting. I want my bloodpoints and challenges done.
That's nice and all, but that's just adding another problem to the already existing problem.
Your only gripe with it is that you just want to do a tome challenge/daily because it absolutely cannot wait until the next trial, and you are seriously suggesting that the survivor who doesn't want to stay should just cop the dc penalty.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2674928#Comment_2674928
It doesn't.
Find a glyph? Sure.
Fall from a great height? Still doable.
Escape the trial while using a specific perk? Hatch, here I come!
It does, depending on the daily/tome challenge. Regardless, I'm relatively unconcerned with that since this is a solution to avoid wasting the time of the killer, and the remaining two survivors.
All three players would rather move onto the next trial than play hide and seek for however long it takes the killer to find the survivors.
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@Fnatic47 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/297313/we-100-need-built-in-anti-tunnel
And Killers need a huge anti Gen Rush build 😏 You survivors just need calm down with Gen Rush and the Tunnel and Camp may end... Easy
Killers tunnel and camp regardless of whether or not they're being genrushed.
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@Starrseed said:
That's actually not a bad idea and believe me I'm trying my best to find a way to exploit this like I always do with this ideas and apart from what roaderfrost said I can't find anything and even that is easy to cancel if you say it don't work if the majority of the survs are swf or it only works every other game so you can't rinse and repeat till you got what you want
You'd be hard-pressed to exploit it seeing as it wouldn't remove the dc penalty. Those who dced would still be punished accordingly. It's only beneficial to the remaining three players.
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@WesCravenFan said:
Sounds like a neat way to screw over someone trying to get a Challenge or Daily Ritual done.
As if two survivors disconnecting in the first 15 seconds doesn't already do that.
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@RoaderFrost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2674731#Comment_2674731
And what about items, offerings, add-ons? Trial canceled, they are refunded?
Let's see. Example. I'm a survivor, part of 3 player SWF group. I use R.P.D. offering. Trial started, map is not R.P.D. so two my friends disconnect before 15 sec is up. I get offering refund, next game I use it, it's R.P.D. and now we can abuse the killer!
In that particular scenario, the two who dced still suffer the disconnect penalty.
Yes, everything brought to the trial would be refunded in the same way that it is when there's a dc during the loading screen. What I'm suggesting is a mutually beneficial solution to a problem so as to avoid wasting the time of both parties.
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@RoaderFrost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/297948/cancel-the-trial-if-more-than-one-disconnects
You aren't supposed to win every trial. If game is busted from the start - play smart. And if you see that you can't escape after too many teammates disconnect, just walk to the killer, drop your item and wait.1-2 DC isn't fun for killer too. He can just let last survivor to escape.
I never said anything about wanting to win every trial. If there are two disconnects in the first 15 seconds, the trial should just cancel otherwise it's a waste of everyone's time.
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If the survivors aren't very good, I'll feel bad if I 4k so I'll pick the two most annoying survivors to die, and let the remaining two do gens and leave.
As killer, I don't need the 4k so long as I had fun. Fun, for me, is not about winning; it's about testing my skills against the skills of the survivors. As survivor, testing my skill against the skill of the killer is what's fun.
What feels bad as survivor is being tunneled because the killer themselves lacks any real sort of pressure. 90% of the time in situations where I am being tunneled off-hook, the killer ends up losing three, maybe four if I'm lucky, gens. They end up having two - three hooks the entire game because they over-committed to a chase.
I don't feel punished by teabagging survivors and think the game would be more fun if killers had other ways to interact with survivors like Ghostface and Pig do.
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I'm inclined to disagree. She's solidly A-Tier.
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@Adjatha said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2671765#Comment_2671765
Honestly, EVERY killer needs some kind of 1v4 mechanic. Something to make survivors do anything other than sit on gens when one of their friends is being chased.
Absolutely, and it has to be something that isn't able to be controlled by survivors.
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@Feyd said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2671783#Comment_2671783
I don't disagree, but my post was mostly to troll the killers that rage over each of these perks. It was not a serious, "this is sound, meta gameplay" suggestion. Hell, if I put a boon totem on now, it's just to trigger the killer, cause for the most part, they're unreliable and not worth the time.
Though on RPD, the shadowstep/CoH combo up in the library is definitely stupid.
Killers get triggered just by survivors doing gens lmao.
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@Feyd said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2670536#Comment_2670536
Use overcome first chase. Get hooked. Exhaustion is removed by being hooked. Use dead hard when being tunneled and cannot heal.
Eh, seems like a waste of a perk slot.
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@Adjatha said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2670522#Comment_2670522
Well, Pinhead's chain hunt was, legitimately, a 4-player slowdown power and all the addons that actually made it function got nerfed. But you're right: we DO keep getting weaker killers whose powers focus on on 1v1. But then those powers also get nerfed anyway (Freddy, Wraith, Spirit, Pyramid Head, Deathslinger, Twins, and even Trickster's totally worthless Main Event).
The only new killers that haven't been nerfed are Blight (who is basically running Nurse: strong but extremely hard to play at first, so most killers just get a bunch of 0ks and give up, keeping the Stats low) and Nemesis (whose 1v4 power is a buggy AI mess and whose 1v1 power gives survivors a third health state and effectively reduces his downs-per-gen).
We already seen this with Plague where allowing the killer's power to be controlled by survivors is a bad idea. That's unfortunately the problem with Pinhead. He becomes a glorified 1v1 killer with weak anti-loop capabilities once survivors control the box.
Honestly, a lot of the weaker killers deserve buffs to parts of their kits that feel clunky or weak. If bhvr decided to move away from the Hold W Meta, we could get some stronger killers.
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@PleassBuiltInNoed said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2670027#Comment_2670027
the point of third health state is for you to survive longer, overcome does the exact same thing and sometimes even better
in the example that this guy gave, overcome is clearly better
nurse already can't catch up to survivors quick enough without cooldown addons if they shift + W from her in straight direction after getting hit
Overcome cannot compete with any halfway decent Nurse. Especially not if they run blink recharge add-ons or range add-ons.
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@Feyd said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2670033#Comment_2670033
Better. Run both! That way when they tunnel you for using overcome and don't want you getting to CoH, you can dead hard to make them ragequit.
Overcome is an exhaustion perk. Dead Hard is also an exhaustion perk. Exhaustion perks cannot be used while exhausted.
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The reason we have weaker killers being released isn't because bhvr is afraid of making a strong killer or because of whining survivors; it's because we keep getting killers whose powers focus on the 1v1 rather than the 1v4.
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Devotion 3, level 97
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@[Deleted User] said:
Well, they can't solve the issue with balance, which makes MMR the issue. MMR isn't fit for an asymmetrical game. It's just not fun.
If the community stops crying about MMR, and starts demanding better balance changes in a constructive way, then maybe we'll see better results.
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I don't think there is really a way to make MMR feel better for people at the top. I understand why these veterans are upset, but at the same time, I feel like there's this lack of understanding that they don't need to win all the time.
MMR isn't really the problem so much as it's just highlighting the already existing problems with how the game is balanced.
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2659254#Comment_2659254
It's still bizarre to lose points on something that survivors will do naturally and - with CoH - is not something that's possible to prevent with any sort of reliability. Some builds revolve around injuring survivors and letting them heal - but if you use those builds, the system counts it against you.
Not only that, the system actively punishes you for killing survivors too quickly. So if you let them heal, you get punished, but if you kill them too quickly, you also get punished.
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2658598#Comment_2658598
See, this is the problem.
For you to have less sweaty games, the system has to match you up with less skilled people.
Which in turn makes things a lot less fun for those people.
I know that it's not great to have to play sweaty or lose, but under the rank system, this is going to be the case for a lot of new/intermediate folks. Because for you to have an easy time, they have to have a much less fair matchup. And sure, you could say 'well, I'll just go easy' (which from your own statements I doubt - it sounds like what you enjoy doing is stomping people) - but that's not going to be the case elsewhere.
Again, my own experiences were terrible until MMR and if I hadn't been basically trapped in my house with nothing else to play, I'd never have stuck it out. I wonder how many potential players didn't stick it out because they were constantly being matched up against endless smurfs or people far beyond their skill level who just wanted easier games to just smash the faces of people less skilled than them.
And yes - killer has issues right now, but these aren't to do with MMR. You are just noticing them now because you are being put up against other high MMR people.
What should be the focus is fixing these issues: reworking maps, fixing infinites, buffing about half the killer roster, addons and perks.
I agree with this post. Before MMR, nine times out of ten without fail I would play against red rank killers who were all about being efficient. Meanwhile as killer, every third game was against red rank swfs who brought full meta builds or just went for the "bully the killer" route by using head-on to disrupt a chase. The only way I could win as Ghost face was to 3-gen them with ruin/surveillance and force them to make mistakes.
Games were miserable. I didn't want to play but I stuck with it to hopefully make these miserable games learning experiences. Under the new system, I'm having a much better time as survivor and killer.
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Around 800 hours. Mostly survivor now. Started out as a killer main, but between the horrible matchmaking and the constant performance issues, it was just too stressful.
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2656832#Comment_2656832
That wouldn't really fix gen speed, it would make it worse.
It's actually really good strategy to have each survivor on different gen, because that is way harder to stop them.
It would get 3-gen way harder tho.
Big problem imo are spawns, because you can get spawn where each survivor is on different gen from start and there is not much killer can do about that. Survivors should always spawn together.
In my experience, I've had easier games when the survivors are all split up on different gens versus when they're burning through gens co-op with Prove Thyself, knocking the gen speed down to about 36 seconds.
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@themoobs1984 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2656815#Comment_2656815
Gens go way too fast. That is the truth. However, smaller maps hurt some killers like Pinhead, Ghostface, and The Pig. I think fixing generator speed is the main issue along with limiting the amount of the same perks on survivors. For killers, perhaps making survivors just off the hook invincible to attacks for a few seconds will discourage "tunneling" attacks. The main issue is gen speed. They just go too fast and it's a big problem.
One of the ways to improve gen speeds would be to have more single person gens and less two+ person gens. Some maps need scaling down, while others just need to have their gen spread changed. Blood Lodge is one of the worst offenders for this.
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Before the MMR system, roughly every second round I played against a tunneling killer and got tunneled out within the first 60 seconds purely because it's efficient. As killer, games weren't much better than they are now.
Clearly, MMR isn't the problem here. It's the overall game balance. Gens go too fast, maps are too big with too heavy an emphasis on Hold W, and tunneling/camping is too efficient.
I like games that are fun and fair, where everyone has the opportunity to play the game the way it's meant to be played. On average, rounds last 15 minutes for my SWF group so I'm happy if I die after 3 gens are done. What isn't fun is a tryharding killer running Ruin/Undying/Tinkerer/NOED because they want a 4k in 2 minutes.
On the flipside, sweaty survivors running a full meta build isn't fun either.
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Remarkably, this is one area it seems console works better than PC. I have never had an issue revealing ghost face on console.
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Adding comms to solo is the wrong idea. Making informational perks basekit for solo is much more beneficial since these perks won't actually make SWF stronger or more coordinated when they're already using voice comms that provide the same information but without restriction.
As an example, kindred basekit. This would help solo queue immensely in knowing whether or not the killer is camping and wouldn't really affect swf since they can just say "killer is camping, do gens".
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2655824#Comment_2655824
it still does? lol I remember hearing about this issue like a year ago or even older than that.
It's been an unfortunate problem since at least 2018, from what I can remember.
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As someone with I'd estimate 800 hours, the new system works better for me. Under the old system, every single trial I'd get tunneled out within the first 60 seconds for no reason other than tunneling is efficient.
Under the MMR system, I rarely get tunneled out of the trial within the first 60 seconds. Usually I'll die around the third or fourth gen and I'm happy with that. I've probably done enough to merit a pip at that point.
I do think the system is a little too skewed towards survivors.
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@SunsetSherbet said:
The only change I would support to NOED is having the "exposed" come up as soon as the gens are done and NOED activates. That way there is no "first guy caught gets a surprise down." and IMO it's completely fair then.
This. NOED is only unfair in that it's kept a surprise until you get hit, otherwise it has more than enough counterplay. I'm all for a base totem counter, but given that they added that to Small Game, I'm guessing they'd rather not go that route.
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Anyone who genuinely says boons are perfectly balanced has no idea what they're talking about. Boons should have a timer so that killers don't have to snuff them out. I'd say 60/70/80 seconds feels fair. Tack on a relighting limit of 2 per totem, for a total of 10 times per trial, to make using them more strategic.
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@landromat said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2632396#Comment_2632396
If you're not winning 80% of your games in SWF you're doing something wrong. Those "simple callouts" is the difference between Win and loss most of the time.
You don't have to be a decent looper. Your teammates will do 3 gens on first chase and last 2 in 2nd and then game is over.
Don't think just because your team doing bad means everyone's team doing bad
Don't think just because some teams are doing good, everyone's team is doing good.
My teammates manage two gens by time I'm hooked, and that's when the snowball begins. I lose more games than I win, and I'm okay with that because it's fun.
It'd be boring if all we did was sit on gens with everything related to speeding up gen progression. There are other likeminded SWFs, but you don't ever see killers mention the SWFs that decided to meme or the SWFs that kept them on their toes but made a mistake that allowed a snowball. It's always "SWF Bully Squad Destroyed Me, Nerf SWF."
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Can we not act like all SWFs are death squads that finish all gens and have the gates 99'd by time you have 1 hook?
Most commonly, SWFs are just average survivors playing together with comms. I play SWF and the best I manage are simple callouts like "Killer's on me", "Shack pallet's gone" or Killer's at some notable location like main building or shack. I can loop, but I'm not great at it. If you mindgame, I'll probably screw up and vault into you.
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I don't play killer very often anymore, but when I do, I actively refuse to tunnel and/or camp unless I'm forced to (BT Bodyblock, Attempting to blind, doing a gen in my face, hook sabo, etc).
If a survivor has just been unhooked, I'll let them run off to go heal but that's the only free pass they get. If I come across them after that, I'll slug them and continue patrolling for the extra pressure.
Being tunneled and being camped are about as unfun for survivors as being genrushed is for killers. It's boring, it's frustrating and there's absolutely nothing you can do to alleviate that feeling.
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Wraith is definitely not in a good place right now, but I feel like the extra lunge was definitely unfair when you take into consideration his buffed movement speed which could then be stacked with windstorm add-ons.
It lowkey shut down certain short/medium loops, and looping is about the only skillful thing a survivor can do. That being said, I think Wraith would benefit more from a decreased cloak/uncloak time, which would probably make cloaking/uncloaking feel less gimmicky and more natural.
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@Tr1nity said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2624612#Comment_2624612
Just dont slug lmfao
Oh I don't, but the tales killer mains at high mmr like to tell on here suggest that slugging will no longer be a valid tactic.
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Boon: Exponential will definitely need changing, otherwise that is going to be the most meta perk in the history of ever.
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Old DS was too strong, and wasn't used to prevent tunneling. You could go for an unsafe rescue, have the killer grab you, DS them, get the rescue with BT and get away because your teammate took a protection hit for you. This was absolutely unfair.
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Alternatively, since there are 5 dull totems per map, they could just be limited to two blessings per totem, per trial. Survivors would then need to be more selective in when and where they choose to bless.