GoodBoyKaru
GoodBoyKaru
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- GoodBoyKaru
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2655803#Comment_2655803
Yes, 1 person isnt "dozens and dozens". Mathematics.
Well we have @ReikoMori from the start of the thread, Karen and MiladyConfetti have both been mentioned before so that's at least 4 I could think of in less time it took for me to write this comment. Wait we have Lilliepie actually so there's a fifth.
I'm sure I could find more for you.
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@Mooks said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2655764#Comment_2655764
It wasn’t only about that one streamer though. ‚SistasOfTheFog‘ for example is a community of black women (and I think including others like non-binary people) that have expressed their feelings and experiences about it as well. I am personally not watching streams much at all so I haven’t directly witnessed harassments like that. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
"Black women, femmes, and non-binary content creators" is I believe how they describe themselves
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@fogdonkey said:
So are you saying me that a not well known streamer (only 1k followers) is getting constantly purposefully targeted by Bubbas wearing the Claudette cosmetic? Kind of hard to believe (send me links to streams where it happened, I didn't see links on this thread, but didn't check all the pages). Sounds more like an attempt to get visibility (based on the length of this thread it was successful). The first video that I saw on the streamer's profile was flashlight clicking at Bubba... No wonder if you get face camped after your annoying clicking.
Tani? We're ignoring MiladyConfetti and Karen then?
Also if you look at the clip it was uploaded long after the tweets on Bubba 😶😶
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2655740#Comment_2655740
I'm not interested in discussing this. I said that.
*asks question
*gets answer which has been said time and time again in the thread
*begins to discuss it before backtracking and removing comment
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2655717#Comment_2655717
Do you think that removing it will decrease the amount POC are targeted by...unsavory members of the community?
How many times do we need to sya that taking away this tool makes them have to stop or become explicit about it, one of which decreases racist activity and one of which increases clear racist activity leading to a large number of bans leading to decreased racist activity.
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@AkiTheKitten said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2655614#Comment_2655614
And why does your friend's opinion matter more than anyone else's?
It doesn't. If you believe it should stay as a poc then great, your opinion is equally as valid. Nobody would share an opinion 100% of the time.
I'm not saying that I speak for every Black person, I'm posting somebody else's opinions and providing extra context to them, and as they are my friend and I believe them to be far more knowledgeable on the subject I am supporting her side for removing it.
If people could change my mind from the point she has provided then my viewpoint would change as well, as I used to be entirely for keeping it in the game (and old comments of mine betray this).
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@Clowning said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2655584#Comment_2655584
Damn, do you have a Twitter or something so that next time dudes start playing Magic the Gathering with black people's tweets, I've some legendary cards to pull out?
Except you can use forums comments for it. Since she doesn't have a forums account I posted her tweets.
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@AkiTheKitten said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2655514#Comment_2655514
Yes ❤. You don't speak for black people, you aren't the emperor of black people. It's more racist to remove it
No, I'm simply saying the opinion of my friends who don't have forums accounts. Please refer to previous comments for said people ❤️
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@GeneralV said:
Not deleted yet? Then I have time for one more remark:
LEAVE MY SMARTFACE ALONE, BHVR.
No. ❤️
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@giorgi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2655489#Comment_2655489
Or is it possible for Antichet to ban me?
That's what EAC is. You won't be actively pursued but if something to do with EAC changes and it then bans you then BHVR will not lift the ban. You'd have to appeal direct to EAC
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@Olokun said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2655458#Comment_2655458
I juste sais in 80's WE were able to joke on everything more than now , now everyone take everything as an offend . The World is less free ATM than it was before, respect included
.
Were you able to joke more, or have people just realised that joking about race/sexuality/gender/sex when you're a cishet white man isn't actually all it's cracked up to be?
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Just @ topic again, especially the people saying that no minorities have issues with it. In addition to tweets linked before, here's five Screenshots from Tanibeax on the subject.
She is the person I've gotten the modtmost information on the topic from. And yes, if you can't tell from her profile picture, she is black.
Stop pretending that it's only white people asking for it to be removed and that only seeing race in it is racism in and of itself. Because there are absolutely black people asking for it's removal, like there are Asian people asking for the removal of Jake's face.
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@Olokun said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2655403#Comment_2655403
here we go , self victim begin i was born in 80's so i can talk of this .
What
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@ThePolice said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2655355#Comment_2655355
Well, I mean if someone tunnels only black or Asian survivors, them having the mask on doesn’t make it MORE racist or anything
No, it makes it much more obvious what the intent was and subsequently much more uncomfortable for people to sit through. Like it's about removing the tool to help people feel more comfortable in the game idk what's so obscure about that.
And let's face it, who even uses any of the Bubba faces? Outside of having them for the sake of having them, which would also be the case were they to be replaced with items of clothing or other accessories, I don't think I've seen a single Bubba wearing one of those faces outside of facecamping the black/Asian survivors in a trail.
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https://twitter.com/Karu_TC/status/1454544163115044867?t=osHB858PTWDXIb_Sz5CCyg&s=19@Mooks said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2655346#Comment_2655346
i can only speak for GoodBoyKaru and he made it very obvious he is directly speaking for his friends who are people of color and he talked to about this.
one of the devs already confirmed they are trying to negotiate with the license holders to change this. And I think it was explicitly about the blackface problem beneath the mask (could be wrong about that though).
one popular proposal is to make the masks not about the skin (and skin color) but to add other features and objects from the original survivors (such as Claudette’s/Dwight’s glasses, Jakes scarf..) since Leatherface actually does this in the movies as well when wearing the skin of his victims
You may need to backtrack a bit in the video for full context but here's not_Queen talking about it.
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@ThePolice said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654519#Comment_2654519
What tool? How does the mask help racists be racist? Theyre still gonna spam slurs and tunnel people
The tunneling doesn't have to be for racial issues, however when it's been done exclusively to Black survivors while wearing the cosmetic then it's a lot more... Obvious what the reasoning behind it is.
And as for slurs? They're bannable. The issue comes from when they're being racist without saying slurs.
@topic
https://twitter.com/thesistakaren/status/1454882749563736065?t=7cBjRLSeUf9yPeyROYLDKQ&s=19 https://twitter.com/Lillipie101/status/1455583849010900993?t=7cBjRLSeUf9yPeyROYLDKQ&s=19Last I checked both of these women weren't white and were advocating for its removal- took me around 20 second to find.
https://twitter.com/DyllonKG/status/1459262244861190146?t=7cBjRLSeUf9yPeyROYLDKQ&s=19As well as this article written under the advice of Karen and Tani, both of whom are black.
People are complaining about it, and not just white people.
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@Lucifer17 said:
So it's okay just to leave white faces and not any other race? Makes alot of sense. Anything for attention.
If you'd looked at the responses for more than half a second you'd know this to be false jfc.
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@Voodoo_Thirsty said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/43G7FNAA7DTU/smartface-hypocrysy.png
This entire conversation in a nutshell...
Checks out except for the fact that I've been repeating almost word for word things that poc friends have told me about it and their experiences 🧍
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@Mr_K said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654582#Comment_2654582
You're a big supporter of a LGBT character being added to DBD. If a character was added and ######### begin using that character to harass LGBT streamers, would you advocate for that characters' removal? Or would you just want the ######### ban.
No, just like I'm not advocating for the removal of all non-White survivors. What kind of ######### strawman is this
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@GentlemanFridge said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654688#Comment_2654688
...Then I actually just don't see the issue. If the racist keeps their opinion to themselves, then what's the effective difference between a 'normal' bubba player using the cosmetic, versus an actual racist using it as a blackface...thing. (I'm too tired to think of the correct terminology anymore.)
Because being implcitly racist isn't keeping your views to yourself, it's displaying them in a way hard to prove however still entirely capable of causing the desired effect.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654677#Comment_2654677
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654670#Comment_2654670
I'm just giving it as an example that "removing a tool" is just utlimately futile, in my opinion. This is my logical-to-a-fault reasoning that removing the tools to express racism isn't going to solve the core issue, being the racism itself.
No, and nobody is arguing that it will. However, you can be implicitly racist, and explicitly racist, and what you described is the latter. It is also much easier to prove, and thus much easier to ban for. Removing the tool for implicit racisim means they'll either have to be explicitly racist- and thus risk a ban- or keep their views to themselves- which enables people to be far more comfortable while playing.
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Me, sobbing as I activate Decisive Strike, overcome with greif for the poor shoulder of the killer I'm about to stab:
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654634#Comment_2654634
If I understand the argument, he's saying that it could also be used by bigots to display bigotry. This was, if I recall, the first reply to BHVR's announcement of the charm (something along the lines of 'oh yay now I'll get tunneled for wearing it).
In both cases, you have an innocuous, if not well intentioned element of the game that could 'enable' bigotry.
What he's essentially arguing is that it sets a silly precedent.
At least that's my impression.
However there is a difference between the pride charm and blackface Leatherface.
Nobody uses blackface Leatherface to represent themselves and display pride in their identities in the match. It's not like there's some movement to do so either, when you have several characters for representation (such as Dwight, Meg, Claudette, Adam, Elodie, Jake, Zarina). However people do use the pride charm for that.
Furthermore, people equip blackface Leatherface to be racist, people equip the pride charm and have homophobic/transphobic actions against them. A better comparison would be asking about removing every non-white survivor, to which the logical answer would be "######### no".
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@GentlemanFridge said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654643#Comment_2654643
I've had a bizarre encounter where a guy in the pre-game lobby asked if I could also play as "the [n-word]". All 3 others were Claudettes. The guy then proceeded to write out an onomatopoeia of monkey sounds.
It's really not just smartface Bubba users. I really shouldn't think we're removing Claudette from the game, now would we?
Nobody is saying it's just the Bubba players, however it's a tool allowing implicit racism. That was explicit racism and entirely bannable
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654596#Comment_2654596
Good!
Never apologize for giving your opinion, unless you are giving it in bad faith or refusing to cede a point that you know is wrong.
Regarding your analogy...um.
I swear, there's a name for this that escapes me but what you are doing is conflating two very different scenarios.
I'd go to the Lawyer for specific legal advice. I'd go to the brain surgeon for advice on neurology.
However, that does not mean that their opinions on, say, baseball or the morality of a welfare state would be any more valid than mine, assuming we all watch baseball.
It also (and this is key) does not mean that I am incapable of having a valid legal opinion or making a correct point on neurology.
Now, I don't think your analogy is bad, but I think you've taken the wrong conclusion from it.
The reason being, everyone has a race (unless you are one of those 'white isn't a race' NBP types - I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here). Race relations are something we all have to negotiate together.
'Offensiveness' is and always will be in the mind of the beholder. A very wise man once said 'offense is seldom given but always taken' and I agree with that. I've had some hilarious experiences in Japan (my absolute favorite was 'hey you're from Africa right? Do you have AIDS?'). And don't even get me started on the representations of white foreigners in Japanese media...
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/DVXAMXEDZYB3/image.png
However, I would never take offense at that. Because I truly believe that where you encounter ignorance, your reaction should be mild amusement and, if you feel the need, a desire to discourse.
Here, we have a videogame with an aspect that was likely designed to be inclusive. I don't think that, without a significantly more robust discussion with the playerbase, the devs should change it because a few people declared it to be 'offensive'. I think that's a very bad precedent to set - the sort of precedent that turns you into Ubisoft, pumping out deliberately bland media to avoid offending anyone.
And yes, I'm glad that you agree that some things go too far.
Can you see that, from mine (and the perspective of my missus) that this is an example of that?
Regarding your analogy...um. I swear, there's a name for this that escapes me but what you are doing is conflating two very different scenarios. I'd go to the Lawyer for specific legal advice. I'd go to the brain surgeon for advice on neurology. However, that does not mean that their opinions on, say, baseball or the morality of a welfare state would be any more valid than mine, assuming we all watch baseball.
You're correct in that I wouldn't go to either of them for baseball advice- I'd talk to a baseball player. And I'd assume the opinion of the baseball player to be more valid than that of you three, as this imaginary player has more experience with baseball than the imaginary lawyer. You see what I mean?
It also (and this is key) does not mean that I am incapable of having a valid legal opinion or making a correct point on neurology.
Correct, it does not. However, people will be more inclined to believe the opinion of someone with more experience and knowledge in the subject. If you can back up your opinions with experiences, be it legal documentation and prior court hearings you've seen, or a video of you playing baseball professionally 15 years ago, then people will also likely provide a lot more validity to your opinion than they would have prior, as they know you come from a place of experience on the subject.
To use a much more real world example, I'm currently studying economics (among other things). My friend, who I'll call Darlah (which isn't her real name), is studying psychology (also among other things). For economics advice, people would obviously go to me over Darlah, and for psychology advice, they'd do the opposite. In terms of getting advice for, say, criminology, they'd naturally go to someone else.
I hope this is making sense now?
Race relations are something we all have to negotiate together.
Which is absolutely true, however this isn't an issue of race relations, but instead of a lot of POC being racially targeted and harassed while a cosmetic enables the intentions to be made clear. Obviously, this won't suddenly solve racism, however making people feel more comfortable while playing their game seems like a good thing, right? Race relations would, imho, be something entirely different.
Here, we have a videogame with an aspect that was likely designed to be inclusive. I don't think that, without a significantly more robust discussion with the playerbase, the devs should change it because a few people declared it to be 'offensive'. I think that's a very bad precedent to set - the sort of precedent that turns you into Ubisoft, pumping out deliberately bland media deliberately to avoid offending anyone.
I believe that while intentions may have been pure, it was tone-deaf at best, and a lot of people I've spoken to seem to agree. It's been taken by racists as a tool for targeted harassment and since a lot of people- or at the very least a vocal minority- of POC players have spoken out against the cosmetic, I believe it at least warrents some looking into (which has been confirmed by not_Queen to be something they're looking into doing).
Can you see that, from mine (and the perspective of my missus) that this is an example of that?
Kind of? I get that it may seem extreme but I'd rather support people who are advocating for more comfort in playing the game than deny their opinions and experiences simply because of a cosmetic. The cosmetic itself has no monetary value and can be easily replaced with something else equally as iconic with far less problematic undertones. And while this may look like PC gone mad to you, to me it seems like a reasonable request for people to feel more safe in the game, and remove a tool to be implicitly racist, as explicit racism will lead to punishments.
Taken to the extreme would be the commentsmade against you and your wife, for example. I don't think this is an extreme at all.
EDIT: sorry for the long comment but I felt like it was warranted in this case.
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@Clowning said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654615#Comment_2654615
I didn't say anything all too insane last time either and yet things happened. You know well how that goes yourself too, if memory serves right.
Anyway, the developers are looking into the Bubba situation, which means we might see a change in a few years.
inb4 NFT blackface
Oh no believe me my ban was entirely warrented, there was a rule I broke very explicitly multiple times lmao
@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654615#Comment_2654615
I'm all for a better reporting system since the current one is trash.
You're speaking it enables people, that's why earlier I brought up the pride charm as an "enabler" since it also can be used like that. Does that mean the pride charm should be removed because people can use it to be bigots? No.
People who show obvious bigotry just need to be banned.
We ban the bigots and remove the, at best, tone-deaf enabler. It's two birds with one stone.
Also I've already explained time and time again why the pride charm is not a good example to use for this.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
To just state my opinion on the matter, I personally don't see it as a necessary thing to change. I will be opposed to flat-out removal, however. As GBK has stated, though, that is (hopefully) not the case.
That said, I'm naturally going to be biased. Being a white Dutch guy, I've grown up with the yearly tradition of Sinterklaas (which is, fittingly, around this time of year), where actual blackfaces (and, admittedly, not very flattering ones at that) appear commonly. Zwarte Pieten, they're called. Literally, Black Petes. It's something I just never considered as being offensive until a few years back. Strides have been made to improve the situation, but it only takes a quick google image search to see why even the current iteration ("roetveegpieten" - chimneysweep Petes) is still problematic. Even so, it hardly affects me at all. I'm too old now to be affected by any major change in the tradition (it's primarily aimed at kids around the age of 8-10), and the whole matter leaves me largely indifferent anyhow.
With that out of the way, I can perfectly understand why a poc would be offended by the cosmetic, and if that's indeed a shared sentiment, by all means, I'll support that. Though, I really don't think flat-out removal is the way to go about it, as that seems like positive discrimination. Quite simply, it just doesn't make sense if we don't also remove, or indeed, change the other cosmetics. That isn't me taking offense to just Dwight and Meg's faces being the only ones, I just would greatly prefer a more elegant solution, if something were to change.
(I am currently running on 4,5 hours of sleep. If this topic still exists tomorrow, I'll try to elaborate)
A lot of the people who advocate for the removal of the cosmetic suggest they replace it instead of outright deleting it with something equally as iconic, except without the problematic elements. My friend Tanibeax first suggested this one to me, I believe, and it does seem like the best solution.
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@Yords said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654444#Comment_2654444
Remove both, there is no reason for either to exist.
We can't suggest something too sensible it'll never be implemented
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654608#Comment_2654608
Then nothing to be changed about Bubba, if it's not about him.
Just ban the players being racist. Removing a cosmetic will not change the fact that they're racist.
Or, and hear me out here, we improve the reporting system to ban these players and remove one of the enablers allowing them to be racist? :0
@Clowning said:
Damn, I just got out of forum jail and you guys are already tempting me.
If you take a ban because of this topic then idk what to tell you, the only way you could really achieve that is through making a racist or insulting remark which are both clearly against forum rules lol
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654601#Comment_2654601
It isn't racist, tho.
How it would be racist:
Bubba only killing claudette and using her face because of her race.
Bubba never using claudette's face because of her race.
He sees everyone equally, he doesn't care about race. People making it a "blackface" thing, when it's not even close to the definition.
It would be "blackface" if he used it to mock claudette for her skin color. He doesn't.
idk how many times to say this but it's not about the character of bubba, please stop making it about the character of bubba
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654586#Comment_2654586
Good. I'll agree with you on this.
But again, which people?
Before I changed something like this, I'd make very sure that I was doing it because it actually offended a lot of people. Maybe an ingame poll would be apropo?
Otherwise you risk falling into the trap of making changes to your product because of a tiny minority opinion.
The slippery slope isn't always a fallacy, and you risk sliding right down it once this happens.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654591#Comment_2654591
This, right here, is the absolute core of my problems with a lot of this stuff.
When you start complaining that having black enemies in Far Cry or Bubba wearing Claudette's or Jake's face is racist, then you water down how wrong and evil racism actually is and - if anything - you risk making actual incidents of racism viewed as less serious.
If I'm being genuinely honest, I am not 100% the best person to ask for how to gague community requests to change the cosmetic(s), however I have some friends I could ask on what they believe the best way of doing this would be (and you absolutely could do the same if you wanted).
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@nostrada96ass said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654565#Comment_2654565
no, thats just pc based idea
they screwed one remastering and showed they don't care about their customers like before
did you saw how diablo immortal presented? thats true reason
it doesn't matter what happend there, people don't give a damn about it
i never heard any person suggesting to hate them for any whistleblowon stories,
also majority pissed about what you said just because they added soldier76 and tracer is homosexual
No I think the sexual assault victims would absolutely argue that it was due to the sexual assault lawsuits and not because of a few bad game reveals..?
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654586#Comment_2654586
The same way you can say this is an issue for certain people, I have the right to say this is a non-issue for other people.
Bubba wearing a mask made of skin, that happens to be black, is not blackface. It's not racism.
Saying this is racism, actually takes away from actual racism happening in the world, which already is a lot, why add even more to it?
Saying that something that people who experience racism have defined as racist- though I appreciate not everyone will, which was my bad since comment 1 on this thread- doesn't create more racism in the world, it just allows people to deal with something that was racist all along but simply wasn't recognised as such
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654563#Comment_2654563
I agree. These are very important discussions that need to be had, so long as they remain civil. And media is an excellent framing device for these discussions.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654567#Comment_2654567
Which POC?
What I'm putting forward here is primarily the opinions of my wife (and I hope that being married to a Caucasian hasn't become grounds for disqualification) who is sitting about 2 meters away from me at the other end of my living room.
This is a core part of my disagreement here. You seem to be more than willing to consider all POC a monolith and are you, yourself, speaking over them where they disagree.
Also - let's be nice here GBK. That last thread ended badly.
Also also - as I said then, I will never accept any sort of ideological segregation. Anyone can (and should) speak on any issue that interests them. Nobody's opinion should be discarded because of their race, sexuality or identity. And that cuts both ways.
It saddens me as a progressive of yesteryear, who marched against Apartheid himself (and ended up with a pretty awesome scar), that this seems to be the way we are going now.
What I'm putting forward here is primarily the opinions of my wife (and I hope that being married to a Caucasian hasn't become grounds for disqualification) who is sitting about 2 meters away from me at the other end of my living room. This is a core part of my disagreement here. You seem to be more than willing to consider all POC a monolith and are you, yourself, speaking over them where they disagree.
And then her opinions are also entirely valid. I've been using POC all thread when I should be using some/most beforehand, which was entirely my bad and I apologise.
Also also - as I said then, I will never accept any sort of ideological segregation. Anyone can (and should) speak on any issue that interests them. Nobody's opinion should be discarded because of their race, sexuality or identity. And that cuts both ways.
Correct, everyone's opinion holds some weight. However, again to use the analogy of the lawyer and the brain surgeon, they will have vastly different experiences in life, and so you wouldn't go to one person on advice for something they aren't experienced in. If you have experienced something for a large portion of your life, then you are just naturally going to be able to give better advice on the topic at hand, hence why your opinion should be weighted higher since you're more knowledgeable on the subject matter at hand.
It doesn't matter if this is about sexuality, race, gender, religion, science- the topic is irrelevant. The general principle remains the same of "your opinion matters more if you have experience in the subject"- and so, absolutely no offence intended, I'd value your wife's opinion on the subject moreso than your own. Like I'd value an Asian person's opinion on the subject of Asian hate than I would anyone else.
(Also, in terms of your previous talk about the comments you received when marrying your wife, I'm genuinely sorry to hear that. That's been taken to the extreme of the extreme and provided both of you were legally of age to marry then absolutely nothing should've stopped you, with no comments or judgements made. People will take these things too far, and I believe this was one such example of that).
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@Tr1nity said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654574#Comment_2654574
Its really close though. I think rn the threads more or less a powder keg
We just need to wait for 1 spark to blow the whole thing up.
And when that spark comes it will be dealt with accordingly.
@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654570#Comment_2654570
"an issue they face", an issue that they made up sure. There was no issue in the first place.
Pretty sure there is way more POC thinking this is a non issue than what some people are making it out to be.
People have been advocating against this cosmetic for a while- well over 2 years. This isn't a recent development. Who are you to say what is and isn't an issue for people?
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@Mr_K said:
Is there something wrong with Claudette's face?
@GoodBoyKaru racists will be racists. Removing it won't stop harassment as the face isn't a catalyst to it.
Taking away a cosmetic simply because its a different color is racists. Claudette deserves her place as the original 4 survivors.
"as the face isn't a catalyst to it" except it is
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@Tr1nity said:
I was right - page 3 and the thread is out of hand
Last I checked nobody has actually resorted to name calling or anything else against Forum rules. Whilst this debate may be heated, it has yet to evolve into an argument.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654560#Comment_2654560
Definition of things, yes, but that change is not made by nobodies on twitter.
Now IDK about you- actually I do, you won't change, so this argument is entirely pointless and is just going around in circles- but I'm more than happy to accept the definition made by multiple people about an issue that they face if it can be commonly agreed upon. In this case, a lot of POC have agreed that this is blackface/cultural appropriation, so I'm more than happy to accept their definition and support their attempts to remove something that is being used to purposefully harass them
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654532#Comment_2654532
Shrug. Again, this isn't a hill I'm willing to die on - I barely even play the Bubster :).
I'm saying that I think the arguments being made here are thin at best and is illustrative of an aspect of modern progressive activism that I think has become mildly absurd.
DBD Forums users stop speaking over POC on issues they face challenge 2021 (failed)
accurately sums up this comment.
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@nostrada96ass said:
canadian people loves pc
but even canadians who love pc will laugh at the question of whether this is a PC or not because of this dichotomous accident
hahaha!
this thread shows why people not loving blizzard anymore
People don't like Acti-Blizz because of mass sexual harassment allegations and them shredding up a lawsuit idk how that's relevant.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654547#Comment_2654547
"noun: black-face
- 1.
- used to refer to the practice of wearing make-up to imitate the appearance of a black person. The use of such make-up was associated with minstrel shows in the United States from the 1830s until the mid 20th century; it is now regarded as highly offensive."
He isn't wearing makeup, he is wearing a literal face.
What is the benefit to keeping a cosmetic that carries so much weight and trauma?
The definition of things can, shockingly, change over time.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654536#Comment_2654536
You're still saying the issue is people using a cosmetic to target others. Which also could be applied to the pride charm. So no, it's not much of a stretch, it's just that it makes no sense, like saying bubba is doing "blackface" just bc he wears a random face from a random person he skinned.
Pride charm allows representation of onesself. Blackface Bubba is blackface. His skin tone beneath the mask is literally darker than usual.
They're really not the same.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654519#Comment_2654519
I really don't think "taking away a tool" is the way to go about it. I can't speak for any poc, since I'm the palest guy I know, but I do think that reasoning is a very, very slippery slope.
"taking away the tool" is what I've seen POC say time and time again, so that's probably the best way of putting it. At least from what I've seen from a lot of people.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654519#Comment_2654519
So should we also remove the pride flag since homophobic people exist?
Congratulations you've massively missed the point. Like it's genuinely impressive how far out that reach is; really hope you stretched else that'll really hurt tomorrow.
Bubba's faces isn't representation or expression of yourself, pride charm is.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654501#Comment_2654501
I'm having a real hard time gathering your viewpoint on the matter of the cosmetics themselves. Surely it'd be more racist if they were removed now? Positive discrimination is also a thing that I'd rather avoid. Regardless of the terms used, it hardly matters to the character itself. He just wears people's faces. As I just said, it'd be worse imo if he actively avoided faces from people of colour.
People haven't said to remove them outright but change them. Make them collectables from the survivors instead- suck as Claudette's glasses, Jake's scarf, Dwight's tie, Meg's... hair I guess? You could easily take her cap from that one common outfit too. Remove the faces, remove the issues, make it something substantially less obvious while keeping the cosmetics.
That's a suggestion I've seen a lot, and is probably the best compromise.
@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654457#Comment_2654457
Is he though?
Or is Bubba just wearing the face of a victim that happens to be non-white?
I know what you are saying, but comparing this to the Asian equivalent to a minstrel show...I don't think that's fair. It's definitely not what the devs intended it to be (BHVR are among the most progressive companies out there).
I think that Bubba refusing to wear the face of someone simply because they were POC would be far more problematic.
It's a lose-lose scenario for the devs, sadly.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654474#Comment_2654474
'Yellowface' is a term that refers to someone imitating an Asian person (and this next clause is key) to denigrate or make fun of Asian people at a racial/cultural level.
I'm pretty sure that's not what Bubba/BHVR actually meant here. Thus, I don't think it's applicable.
Firstly, again, stop making it about the character Bubba and start making it about the players and their use of it, since that's the major issue people are having with it. Fog Whisperer DyllonKG put together this article on why the definition has evolved over time, and it isn't based entirely on minstrel shows anymore.
What is the benefit to keeping a cosmetic that carries so much weight and trauma?See above for the suggested changes to the cosmetics- not outright removing, but changing.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654501#Comment_2654501
It's not cultural appropriation since Bubba isn't do it with the intent to be offensive to a culture, he literally just kills everyone and skins them.
Going back to @ReikoMori's post, since I think they worded it really well- "I get the whole, Leatherface isn't racist argument, but it ain't about the character and people should stop making it about the character."
Stop making it about how Leatherface isn't racist for doing so, because nobody is disputing that he isn't. It's not about proving he's racist, but about taking away a tool and allowing POC to feel more comfortable in the game. If people are using it to be racist and if people are finding it uncomfortable for these reasons, especially then listen to the community and remove it. If you aren't the people who have been historically oppressed from it, then you of course won't understand why it makes people uncomfortable because you simply don't have the experience- it's like asking a lawyer for advice on a brain surgery. Both have different experiences leading to different types of knowledge which makes their opinions far more valid on certain things (as in, for legal issues I'd absolutely go to the lawyer).
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@GrayEyes said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654395#Comment_2654395
Oh I'm sorry GBK I didn't mean to offend you I assumed it was a screen name although I suppose we all have reasons behind the names we choose I know I have one for mine I shall take note of that for future reference
And yeah I love your breakdown posts you do they always come across so thorough and composed
Oh I'm sorry GBK I didn't mean to offend you I assumed it was a screen name although I suppose we all have reasons behind the names we choose I know I have one for mine I shall take note of that for future reference
Oh, it's absolutely fine! It's not something that's entirely recent however when I'd changed my Forums name for the first time I was perfectly comfortable with Karu, but then due to the circumstances I began to get really uncomfortable with anyone outside of my friends calling me it. But you didn't know so, no harm no foul.
And I'm glad you enjoy the breakdown posts! They're definitely the more high-effort ones so I'm really happy to hear people are enjoying them! :)
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654457#Comment_2654457
I'm pretty sure calling asian people yellow is considered racist? At least in Europe is quite frowned on.
Right- apparently "yellowface" is the more Americanised term- just checked in with a friend (and yes, calling Asian people yellow is horrendously racist) and it's better to use cultural appropriation over it as it's less offensive (they're also not an expert on the subject, neither am I, however since they're iirc half-Chinese I thought they're better to ask and get opinons from rather than use my own knowledge).
Regardless of the term, though, it's something that was portrayed in media frequently and still is rarely to this day. It's far less recognised than blackface, however is still a problem, and Jake's face cosmetic is cultural appropriation like Claudette's face is blackface.
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@VikingDragonXii said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2654441#Comment_2654441
Yes but those didn't directly affect gameplay, the DH bug is a major buf that's affecting gameplay and the only Dev that has said anything is MandyTalk and they have said they reported it to the others repeatedly.
Also you beat me to it I just reread your post wrong lol. Brain not working right today.
it's chill lol, happens to the best of us
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Yes, yellowface. As in, the Jake Park face. Because Bubba is still white immitating an Asian person. And yellowface does exist, as does blackface; look it up.