Firellius
Firellius
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@jeremycarinio said:
NO. FREE INFORMATION should NOT be part of his power, and he's the only killer who has this power.
his power is very nice on closing in loops. the length of his tentacles closes a lot of gap, and it is even non-conditional and permanent. his zombies are already good enough to protect gens.
his zombies getting stuck is a bug, and should be fixed. but zombies getting stuck are like 1:50 games. If aura reading is not removed, i suggest to shorten the aura reading for zombies, maybe around terror radius at maximum.
That free info is part of his power, and he's far from the only one with free intel.
Besides, look at the overall picture: Nemesis is really not that bad to face. If he's fine with the intel, why nerf that out?
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2458101#Comment_2458101
Proving my point more. Red ranks are basically meaningless. I'm talking about top tier players that would be like, rank -1.
The data that you are talking about also says that nurse is the worst killer in the game. Do you think that is true?
This data is obviously irrelevant. This says freddy is top tier killer and doc is next? Pig is top tier too? But nurse and blight are the worst ones in the game. Makes sense....
Yes, sure, let's balance for rank minus one, so no one else can bloody play anymore. Let's make that 70% an 80%!
Everyone knows Nurse is the hardest killer to play.
And she -still- performs just fine at 57%, winning more than losing.
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2458076#Comment_2458076
Your rank is still showing. Too bad your steam profile is private so i can't prove it. But i'd say you are playing at a lower level and don't encounter these problems. it is pretty known and obvious that at the highest levels survivors are OP and dead hard definitely contributes to that. When MMR got flipped on, i basically had to play nurse/spirit every game or i got destroyed by organized teams that would easily finish 3 gens in less than 2 minutes.
Unfortunate: https://dbd.onteh.net.au/playerstats/76561198019687649/
I don't have a problem, therefor I must be bad?
Question mark?
Red rank killers touched almost 70% average kill rate with the latest data.
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2457922#Comment_2457922
Again, your rank is showing.
How about some math shall we?
Imagine a scenario where a survivor hold w and runs in the opposite direction.
- They don't use pallets
- They don't use vaults
- They don't use perks.
- They don't try to mindgame
- They do nothing but hold w.
Doing so, will make it take 47 seconds for the killer to down the survivor. Now factor in finding the initial survivor, picking them up, walking to a hook, and hooking them, and you just spend around 60-70 seconds. By the time you can walk to any other gen, 80 seconds have just passed, you just lost 3 gens and got 1 hook.
Now let's factor in that the survivor can use pallets, and windows, and vaults (and yes the killer can use their power) but, even if the killer guesses right for both hits to do a mindgame, the survivor is still going to take at least 20 seconds for each hit. Dead hard, when used for distance, effectively gives you a third health state, meaning, even if the killer guesses right 3 times (even with them being 50/50s that is really unlikely) it will still take them 60 seconds to down the survivor. Again, factor in picking them up, hooking them, walking to a hook, finding the survivor etc.
When used correctly, dead hard is a third health state.
That's all well and good, but you're also assuming the survivors have no trouble finding a trio of safe gens to do. Safe in terms of both the killer's location and proximity to other gens.
If all four survivors spawn together, at least one survivor has to move at least two gens further to avoid 3-genning, and all the while has to avoid drawing chase.
Yes, it's possible to lose 3 gens in one chase.
But that's not even close to the whole match, is it?
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I think that's considerably too much. Nemesis is a decently strong killer that needs to get his zombies fixed first and foremost, and zombie hits should grant (reduced) mutation. He's not in need of some grand overhaul. He's got a solid in-chase power, and a little bit of free pressure and intel.
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Locker thrown across the patio, Lady Dimitrescu confirmed.
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@Bearded_Owl said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/8F02G8HNECW0/killer-tracking.png
Here is how often I've gone against each killer over 200 matches as a solo survivor at red ranks (currently rank 2).
I play on the Asian servers.
I only consider a win an escape through the exit gate (hatch is too cheap to be considered a win).
I run Smash Hit, Any Means Necessary, Blast Mine & DS, so....not busted perks nor weak, too. Also used yellow med kit with 8 extra charges.
Not really sure what the point of this post is, just thought it was quite an informative piece of info.
Will repost when I get to 400 matches :D
For clarification: is the wins column indicating your wins or the killer's?
Did you escape in 17 matches against Wraiths?
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2457749#Comment_2457749
Again, your rank is showing. If all 4 survivors split up on gens, a single dead hard buys 30 seconds and you lost 3 gens and didn't even get the down.
Those 3 gens took 80 seconds, not 30.
And before you say 'that's just ignoring the factors that hinder your theory', that also applies to yours.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2457726#Comment_2457726
1) In the case that HG gets found first, survivors still see 2 glowing totems. I guarantee you, that someone will cleanse that totem. Which will expose survivors and possibly give hooks. While Undying is simply gone. Sure, it protects that other perks. But totem spawn aren´t great to begin with. With totems spawning on top of a hill, next to gens or right in front of the exit gates. So even when Undying protects Ruin, it won´t survive much longer. Currently i often hear 2 thunderstrucks with a time difference of 30 seconds or less. When the killer uses this obsolete combo.
2) You make this sound like survivors aren´t a team of 4. Its not necessary that the hooked survivor goes back to that gen, when other survivors can go there. Survivors have several ways of communicating the position of a (progressed) gen. Oh and with the exception of Devour Hope, there is not a single Hex perk that i would consider "damn powerful".
3) During the 5th anniversary surprisingly many survivors switched to killer, because they thought (wrongly) that killers earn more bloodpoints. The result was killer queues between 2 and 5 minutes during primetime. The day after the whole event ended, killer queues became instant and survivors had queues between 2 and 5 minutes during primetime. This amount of time isn´t exactly what i would call a shortage. I remember a time a few years ago, where survivors had queues of up to 45 minutes. THAT was a shortage.
Killers have a additional objective to their 12 hooks, while 4 survivors collectivly have 5 gens and nothing else to do?
4) I won´t comment on other forum users.
5) I play without DS and do fine. Your point is?
6) nevermind then
7) camping has been around for 5 years. Survivors got several ways to deal with camping. A good group can unhook with BT, body block and if everything fails the survivor usually has DS or a flashlight. Those tools are in fact so strong, that survivors started to weaponize them and use them outside of actual camping situations. A survivor who gets unhooked with BT, will DH into the killer to avoid that his savior gets downed. A freshly unhooked survivor in front of a opened exit gate is unstoppable, when he has DS. Killer gets punished here for not tunneling DS out earlier. Flashlights are a scourge of their own. We had the Howling Grounds event, where flashlights got "fixed" and turned into unavoidable torches. There wasn´t a single match where survivors wouldn´t bring the weaponized flashlights.
Another obligatory objective wouldn´t kill the game. It wouldn´t suddenly turn all killers into campers and it certainly wouldn´t ruin the survivors fun. All they have to do is give survivors a meaningful objective thats different from what we have now. Like, for example, gas cans that have to be refilled and used on gens. They could become a whole new item (like toolboxes). The gas cans wouldn´t be required for all gens, but for the strategic gens. So survivors would have to make the choice if they ignore those gens and only do the normal ones, but exposing themselves with less favorable positions. Or doing the gas can objective and finish the strategic gens first, which makes the lategame easier.
1) No, if HG gets found first and cleansed, only Ruin's totem remains. If one of the HG totems goes down, the other becomes dull. Yes, HG gets you more value if -it- gets found first, but if it doesn't, Ruin is gone and HG is only going to give value if the survivors chance it. And even if they do, that's not HG protecting your totems, that's just getting value out of it. Whether Undying does a good enough job is a moving of the goalposts. Yes, there will be cases where survivors find both really quickly. But there's also going to be scenarios where survivors find one or neither.
2) The most common gamestate is one where one survivor is on the hook, one is coming to rescue, one is being chased, and one is on gen. This doesn't leave anyone to cover the gen of the person being chased. Yes, Swiffers can communicate where their lost gen is, but even then, the only one at liberty to stop its regression will likely be the person currently doing a gen. And if they lets go of the gen they're doing, they're gonna lose -their- progress. This is why Ruin is so devastating if it's still up by the time the first person's on the hook. And you may think Ruin isn't strong enough as a perk to be a hex, but even with that drawback, Ruin is still one of the most-picked perks. So unless you have an alternative explanation for its popularity, I'm going to assume that the vast majority of killers disagree with you.
3) They thought -wrongly- that killers earn more bloodpoints? What? Unless you get absolutely stomped, you'll -always- get over 15K points and often go up to 32K if you win. Survivors tend to hit 25K for a -really- good match.
Also, survivors not having other gameplay elements, what? Have you ever tried playing a match by just walking up to gens and holding M1 without -any- reaction to -any- other game elements? You think the average survivor just holds M1 on the gen when the killer comes in to grab them? You think you can win by just leaving someone hanging when the killer isn't camping?
Survivor gameplay is broad and varied, killer gameplay is narrow and monotone. THAT is the problem.
Well, that, and the fact that killers are forced to play alone. We need a 2 player killer, á la HotS' Cho'Gall.
4) You utter hypocrite. You had no problem complaining about survivor mains and labelling them entitled, but as soon as I show you the other side of the coin you think you can take the moral high ground by proclaiming you won't pass judgement on other forumgoers? Grow a spine.
5) The point is that you don't need to miss those times where the killer could play without tunnelling or camping. They never went away.
6) -
7) A good survivor will DH into the killer to bodyblock... What? DH disables your collision, you're gonna phase through the killer! Yes, BT is still being used offensively and I want that gone as much as the next person. Ideally, BT should just remove unit collision for the duration of the endurance effect. But you also have to remember that in your impassioned fervour, you are automatically assuming that survivors are bringing BT, DS and DH. That's three of four perk slots gone. And two of those perks practically never fire against me.
Those perk slots could've gone to Botany Knowledge, Prove Thyself, Desperate Measures, We'll Make It, Quick & Quiet, For The People, Inner Strength... Any number of perks that can offer serious benefits.
The fact that you confidently assume that BT and DS are part of the standard loadout of survivors illustrates how much of a problem camping is. Players are willing to gimp their customisability, their enjoyment of the game and their chances of winning to have a shot at dodging these tactics.
Another obligatory objective wouldn´t kill the game. It wouldn´t suddenly turn all killers into campers and it certainly wouldn´t ruin the survivors fun.
Nothing we know suggests this to be true.
So you extend the games. You up the kill rates from around 70% to an even higher number. It won't fix the problem. Killers still have very little gameplay to them. Killers will still get frustrated. 3Ks aren't enough. Sometimes 4Ks aren't even enough.
Killer just isn't fun to play.
Focus on that, instead.
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@VikingWilson said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2457775#Comment_2457775
The counter to NOED, like every hex (aside from Haunted, of course) is to break it. Full stop.
Yes, but that is not what the 'do bones' meme means.
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@VikingWilson said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2457613#Comment_2457613
The counter to NOED is breaking bones, but " the problem is that that doesn't counter NOED"? Ok, bud.
It isn't the counter. And it's very easily illustrated with the following:
If ANY totem is left standing when the fifth gen pops, NOED activates without any deduction to its power. Therefor, at absolute best, 80% of totem cleanses do not do anything to deter NOED.
That is of course a very crass way of looking at it, but it's no less crass than 'do bones'.
@GoodBoyKaru actually commented on how 'doing bones' against NOED usually fares in this thread here: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2457495
He describes another common issue, which is finding the four totems that are easy to find and thereby forcing NOED to sink into the one totem that ISN'T easy to find. Which makes 'doing bones' not just ineffective, it makes it downright invert on itself and empower NOED instead.
He also points out that without comms, survivors struggle to find all five totems as a team and risk spending too much time on it, as some survivors might still be looking for a totem that has already been cleansed in an area that has already been swept. While this, in and of itself, isn't an argument against 'do bones', there's one little condition under which it -does- become an argument against 'doing bones'.
Imagine wasting all that time to get totem 5, and then the killer -doesn't have NOED-.
Because then NOED is the strongest slowdown perk in the game by far, and without even being equipped.
Trust me, I tried 'doing bones'. And in all the times I did, I managed to kill a NOED once. But I have killed NOED three times by NOT cleansing totems, and instead just memorising their spots and revisiting them later. Sometimes by accident, but one very memorable instance was where I was working on gen 5, saw the dull totem and considered for a second whether I should cleanse it in case of NOED. I actively made the decision NOT to cleanse it just in case it lured in NOED, and it lit up as soon as my gen was done.
You do FAR better against NOED by not cleansing totems.
Thank you for listening to my TED talk.
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2457634#Comment_2457634
It is still by far the most powerful survivor perk in the game where one good use of it on a single survivor can win the entire game for the team. It needs to be dealt with.
If you get trounced that hard by one DH use, you weren't winning anyway.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2457613#Comment_2457613
1) Haunted Grounds does exactly what Undying does now. Only the chance of triggering isn´t 100% but 66%. Oh and it exposes survivors. While Undying does nothing more. The moment a survivor sees a glowing totem, the perk is gone.
2) Yes, actually in most of my matches i ignore Ruin unless i stumble on it. Because the killer can only chase 1 survivor away from the gen. So the others will do gens, totally unaffected from Ruin. But even when the killer chases me away from the gen. The regression is 50% of the repair rate of a single survivor. So lets say the gen stays 60 seconds alone, a single survivor would take 30 seconds to undo the damage. 2 Survivors would take 16 seconds. Doesn´t really sound scary. Especially since Ruin is supposed to be a endgame perk, where its more likely that several survivors hug the same gen.
3) Survivors always had a chance to escape. In fact, the game never had a survivor shortage. But several killer shortages. Because, as surprising as it might sound, a killer also wants to have fun. What we have now, isn´t fun. At least not for the killer.
4) Survivors don´t want a balanced game. Or how would you explain all the complaints and threats when it was announced that DS would be nerfed? Survivor mains declared that they would stop playing (they didn´t), that it will increase the tunneling (it didn´t) and that the game would be unplayable (maybe for killers, but definetly not for survivors).
5) I miss the times when the killer could actually afford to hook survivor A, then survivor B, then survivor C, then D, before starting with A again. Everyone got a nice amount of points and survivors died with 20k+ bloodpoints. Nowadays survivors escape with 11k to 14k bloodpoints and call the match ez. No killer will ever complain about survivors doing bones. After all, a survivor doing bones is a survivor who isn´t hugging gens.
6) please don´t call me a clown. We had such a nice discussion here. So no need for insults. Wouldn´t you agree?
7) Camping ruins the game for 1 survivor. Gen rushing ruins the game for 1 killer. Having additional objectives would improve the game experience for both sides. Keeping the game in its current state will ruin the game for both sides. Because both side will camp and rush.
1) That's not how it works at all. Let me sketch the scenarios;
Ruin/Undying, scenario A: Survivor finds Undying, cleanses it. Then has to find Ruin.
Ruin/Undying, scenario B: Survivor finds Ruin, cleanses it. Undying becomes Ruin. Survivor then has to find Ruin.
HG/Ruin, scenario A: Survivor finds HG, cleanses it. Then has to find Ruin.
HG/Ruin, scenario B: Survivor finds Ruin, cleanses it. Survivor doesn't have to cleanse anything else.
HG makes Ruin slightly harder to find and punishes survivors for guessing wrong. Undying mandates that survivors must ALWAYS find and cleanse two totems.
Undying is what protects other hexes.
2) Yeah, it's 'only 30 seconds', but that's taken out of a pretty restrictive time budget depending on killer skill, and doesn't count the time it takes to move back to gen. If a survivor is working on a gen solo and gets chased and hooked, are they really likely to be back there in 60 seconds? And this all happens passively. There's a reason Ruin is a Hex perk: It is -damn- powerful, and would be incredibly unbalanced if it could not be cleansed.
3) Didn't it have a survivor shortage during the 5th anniversary? I remember complaints about long killer queues. And yes, killers aren't having fun. But that's not due to balance issues, because, as stated, the only statistics we have is that the game overall favours the killer. The reality is that killer gameplay is tense and monotonous in most cases, since you only do one thing: Track and hunt survivors. Survivors on the other hand vary between totem hunting, evasive maneuvers, altruism, gens and chases. This gives survivor gameplay diversity that killer gameplay lacks.
If anything it's killers that should have additional options.
4) Do you think killers are any better? You are here saying that you want the game slanted further in the killer's favour than it statistically already is! Literally every survivor perk that gets any usage at all gets complained about. Survivors have their Sluzzy, killers have their Lord_Tony.
I remember a clip of... I think it was True? Whinging all match long about how overpowered Swiffer was, while he was A) Misplaying according to another clown player, B) Not up against a Swiffer, and C) GETTING A 4K ANYWAY!
EVERYONE is prone to bias.
5) I play without tunnelling and camping and I do -fine-, with the exception of playing pre-buff Trickster and my first couple of PH matches when I had zero experience in the game.
6) I didn't say you were a clown, I said you were a clown if you buy into the 'do bones' drivel.
7) Camping ruins the game for -everyone-. The killer has no fun, the hooked survivor has no fun, the other three survivors have no fun. Camping is the absolute worst experience that DBD has to offer, and making it more powerful by taking away its counter is going to make it -more- of a problem, not less. Fix camping, then there's plenty of breathing space to pace the game. Otherwise, you're just going to get this game killed faster.
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2456577#Comment_2456577
You missed the point.
You said it only gives you 2 extra seconds of chase, i'm saying it doesn't. It also isn't earned, because you get injured to get it, and it covers for your mistakes.
Yeah, it doesn't, -if you use it properly-. But doing so requires you to set it up and use it at the right moment, turning a 'press E to win' perk into a 'use it tactically to win' perk. That means you need to put in effort. Which means you earn it.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2457500#Comment_2457500
Lets analyze what you said:
- Undying doesn´t need to survive more than 60 seconds. Thats a useless perk for me. Why? Because the killer spend a perkslot on this "protection". Which vanishes and doesn´t even expose survivors like Haunted Grounds does. As a matter of fact, Haunted Grounds is a stronger gen protection perk than the new Undying. Now, did we see a lot of killers that used Haunted Grounds to protect their other totems? The answer is no. Because no one ever complained about the Haunted Ruin combo.
- Now regarding Undying Ruin. Survivors didn´t had to cleanse all 5 totems. They could, but they certainly didn´t had to. Why? Because Ruin on itself has absolutely no effect on a gen that is being worked on. To make Ruin do anything, the killer needed to patrol gens and switch targets. Aka the killer wasn´t tunneling or camping. <--- supposedly a good thing for survivors.
- But survivors didn´t like that the killer was chasing them away from the gens. Almost like they didn´t care that the killer wasn´t camping anymore. So instead of ruining the game for a survivor who got camped. The killer "ruined" the game for survivors that tried to do gens by chasing them. Doing gens is one of the most boring aspects of the game. Thats why prolonging the gen times would be the wrong step. No one wants to hug a single gen for 2 minutes. Now chases, chases on the other hand are the fun part of the game. But a killer who constantly chased survivors away from the boring gens was disliked?
- This sounds like survivors don´t know what they want. They want the killers to stay away from the hook, while also staying away from the gens. They want the killer to avoid going for the same survivor, while he also shouldn´t switch targets to get them off the gens. They don´t want to do gens only, while they also aren´t happen when they can do totems or chases. Weird, isn´t it?
All right then.
1) Haunted Grounds does nothing to protect your other hex. Have you even looked into how Haunted and Undying work? Because this is an absolutely baffling take. Haunted Grounds isn't a protection for Ruin, it just gives you an opportunity to punish survivors for going after your Ruin. It doesn't protect it. If they find Ruin and cleanse it, HG isn't going to magically make it retain function. Undying does.
2) Have you ever tried to win a match without cleansing Ruin? Any time the killer approaches you, all the work you did on the gen is likely to be undone. This extends the match tremendously, and since no chase can last forever, you are on limited time, so losing the time you worked on the gen hurts your chances at winning. Since old Undying could require you to cleanse all five totems before you can actually work on gens without risking losing all the progress to the killer dropping by, it became an extremely oppressive combo that made it incredibly hard for survivors to do -anything-. Yes, campers didn't benefit from this. But survival rates still crumbled.
3) The killer didn't ruin the game, the game itself did. Like it or not, survivors need a chance to win if you want them to keep playing.
4) Survivors know perfectly what they want. A balanced game, -without- camping. Killers don't know what they want. They don't want to lose camping because 'just genrush', but the also don't want people to genrush and they want survivors to do all kinds of other things. And what makes you think survivors don't want to do totems? Is it the old NOED 'do bones' meme? Because you're a clown if you still buy into that drivel. I'm perfectly happy to do bones, the problem is that that doesn't counter NOED.
Seriously dude, camping is the lodestone of DBD's biggest issues. Take that out and you can clean everything up. But for some reason, if you suggest camping be removed, people drudge up a 5 year old experiment and claim that that's evidence that there's not a single possible format under which this could work.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2457490#Comment_2457490
Show me a match where Undying survives longer than 60 seconds. Survivors even get a notification, that Undying is active.
What was exactly broken about the old Undying Ruin combo?
Undying doesn't need to last longer than 60 seconds. That is literally not its purpose. It's there to expand the lifespan of whatever other Hex you have. In this case Ruin.
The old Ruin/Undying combo could force survivors to cleanse all five totems to get rid of Ruin, and Ruin itself is an incredibly powerful perk. The fact that it could extend its uptime to such an extreme extent was what broke the combo. In the average match, if Ruin isn't found before the first hook, the killer wins. Now imagine needing to find Ruin -four times-. That's why old Undying was broken.
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- Not very frequently. Not sure of the exact tally, but I'd say around one in five.
- Personally, maybe one in three cases where it fires. Someone drops to NOED if it fires, in almost all cases, but it's not always me.
- It depends. I've spent some matches hard-focusing on wiping totems with the aid of DetHunch, but after a while I stopped doing that because it never works. Either the killer didn't have NOED and I wasted all that time, or I cleansed 4 and the killer got NOED anyway, and I also wasted all that time. I think there's been -one- instance of a 5-cleanse against a killer carrying NOED.
@GoodBoyKaru said:
1) Up until recently, not very often (1 in 15/20 games), however recently it's for some strange reason shot up to between 1 in 2 and 1 in 5 depending on the day. Ranks 5-1, depending on how close to the 13th it is.
2) Actually, quite frequently, because teammates seem to be incapable of finding a glowing totem and I end up being chased for about 8 minutes. It's a miracle if that chase buys enough time for them to figure out that gens only take 80 seconds and they can look at a bush outside.
3) If there isn't a hex totem already in play, and I don't have Inner Strength, then no I do not. I do, however, remember these locations for later in the trial. This is for 3 reasons:
- If all 4 survivors are running around the map attemting to cleanse totems, with no communication on where and how many totems have been cleansed, then the game has been thrown. Instantly. Unless the killer is AFK there is absolutely not enough time in the trial for all 4 survivors to become dead weight as the killer continues to snowball more and more pressure.
- If I am the only one cleansing totems, and I cleanse 4 and cannot find the 5th, if NOED then activates I will be unable to find the one hidden totem, which NOED is bound to. If no totems are cleansed, then there is an 80% chance of the NOED totem being an obvious one I have seen before.
- It's very hard to cleanse totems when you're being chased
If all 4 survivors are running around the map attemting to cleanse totems, with no communication on where and how many totems have been cleansed, then the game has been thrown. Instantly. Unless the killer is AFK there is absolutely not enough time in the trial for all 4 survivors to become dead weight as the killer continues to snowball more and more pressure.
If I am the only one cleansing totems, and I cleanse 4 and cannot find the 5th, if NOED then activates I will be unable to find the one hidden totem, which NOED is bound to. If no totems are cleansed, then there is an 80% chance of the NOED totem being an obvious one I have seen before.
These are exactly the reasons why I -hate- the 'do bones' meme. It is such a terrible counter to NOED, it often ends up actually making it stronger instead. Because as an addendum to point 3 of my questions above: I've shut down more NOEDs by saving totems for post-5, as NOED-traps.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2457462#Comment_2457462
During the short period when Undying released, i experienced far less camping killers. The forum wasn´t full of the usual "camper" complain threads. Instead it was full with threads complaining about "having to do totems" and "killer getting free wins" because of the Undying Ruin combo.
This was a additional objective which required killers to constantly switch targets, patrol gens, move constantly. Because campers/tunnelers didn´t get any benefit out of the combo. Yet, survivor mains were not happy.
Which is something i can´t explain. Since finally, all the survivor complain points regarding killers camping, tunneling or applying pressure were solved. Everyone got nice long matches. But survivor mains wanted a nerf. For unknown reasons. We were actually pretty close to solve camping forever, but then the devs gave in to the complaints and nerfed Undying into a meme perk.
It could have something to do with old Ruin/Undying being absolutely broken and crashing survive rates. Possibly.
Also, calling current Undying a meme perk. Lol.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2457380#Comment_2457380
But the data only showed the killers rank. Not the survivors he faced ranks.
That also doesn't matter under the current circumstances. Because those circumstances aren't changing, or at the very least, not yet.
It -might- be possible that kill rates go down if SBMM becomes a thing. But we firstly don't know that, and secondly don't know when, or even IF SBMM becomes permanent. So if we decide to just blanket nerf all survivors in the meantime for what is evidently a minority of killers that can't seem to manage anything, we risk doing far more harm than good.
And that's on top of the camping concerns.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2457349#Comment_2457349
I can only provide you with my escape rate/hook rate.
That's not good enough. The DBD data was compiled over a ton of red rank matches and came out to 68% average kill rate, suggesting that this 'killers can't win' idea doesn't actually line up with reality.
That's the only data we have.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2457315#Comment_2457315
You don´t get rainbow matches? Always survivors and killers of your exact rank?
I'm not saying that.
I want your source on red rank survivors having 'much higher escape rates'.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2457305#Comment_2457305
Fun fact about those kill rates: Since the matches usually are rainbow matches, a red rank killer will stomp green or yellow ranked survivors. Which drives the kill rates up. Meanwhile red rank survivors have a higher escape rate. A much higher escape rate.
Source, please!
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2457241#Comment_2457241
But gen rushing every single match beats the concept of "only a camp counter". Don´t you think?
That doesn't matter. With genrush, there's too much camping and average killrates at red rank are 60%. Remove genrush, that kill rate goes up, and we get more camping since it's more effective.
It's pretty much a lose/lose scenario unless there's some countermeasures.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2457115#Comment_2457115
I think we are having 2 different conversations here. You speak about making camping easier. I speak about making gen rush harder.
Genrush is camping's only counter. Nerfing that is a buff to camping.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2457077#Comment_2457077
No, we are talking about adding another objective so killers don´t feel as pressured as they do now. Killers camp&tunnel because if they don´t they won´t get any kills. Most of my matches the killer loses 2 or 3 gens before he gets his first hook; 3-4 hooks by the time the gates are powered and 0-1 kills at the endgame screen. All this when the killer doesn´t camp&tunnel.
So camping and tunnelling are objectively better tactics according to you and you want to not rebalance them with normal play, but instead just make survivors weaker against them?
If camping and tunnelling are the best tactics now, they'll be the best tactics if gens take longer.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2457017#Comment_2457017
So following your logic, the killer would get 2 kills.
Isn´t that the balance the devs strive for?
It's 2 kills -or better-.
And we weren't talking about balance one post ago, we were talking about what killer players would do. So if camping guarantees that you cannot lose, why not keep doing it?
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2456951#Comment_2456951
Giving survivors another objective isn´t buffing camping.
Anything that slows survivors down buffs camping. Giving them another objective they need to do on top of 80 seconds per gen on 5 gens is a buff to camping.
Every survivor camped to death takes 120 seconds, so in that 120 seconds, the other survivors need to be able to finish the game. If you give them more to do, they won't make it within those 120 seconds, so the killer gets another kill. This is already precarious at the moment.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2456814#Comment_2456814
But you just recognized yourself. That Insidious Basement Bubba would be very effective.
The reason why we see so few killers playing that way, is the same reason why we won´t see a rise of camping killers once survivors have a additional objective.
And I disagree. I don't think that buffing camping will make people camp less.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2456775#Comment_2456775
So, despite Insidious Basement Bubba being the easiest and most effective way to get kills. We barely see Insidious Basement Bubbas.
Now, when we apply this to a secondary objective, the exact same thing would happen: We won´t see a sudden rise of more campers/tunnelers because its easier. The numbers will stay where they are or (what is more likely) lower, since killers won´t feel the NEED to tunnel/camp.
We don't see a lot of insidious basement Bubbas because Insidious isn't that helpful.
And we don't see that many campers because camping overall isn't that effective.
But if you slow survivors down, camping goes from 'guaranteed 1k, decent chance at 2k, low chance of even better' to 'guaranteed 2k, decent chance at 3k or better'.
And at that point, why bother playing any other way?
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2456741#Comment_2456741
But you just said, that Insidious doesn´t make the killer invisible...
So, do you see many Insidious basement Bubbas?
No, I'm talking about how effective Bubba is in regards to camping. It's why Bubba players are more likely to camp, and campers are more likely to play Bubba. Because it's easier.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2456712#Comment_2456712
Do you see many basement Wraiths?
No. Because that's still not very effective.
Compare it with basement Bubba, or facecamp bubba in general.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2456686#Comment_2456686
To stay with the Insidious analogy... Which undoubtly is the easiest (and most boring) way to get kills.
Do you see a lot of Insidious killers?
Insidious doesn't turn you invisible though. It's extremely ineffective.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2456601#Comment_2456601
Just like Insidious would encourage killers to camp?
Sure, there will be a few that won't play nice no matter what. But the majority of the killers will play nicer, simply because they won't feel forced to tunnel out someone asap.
And what support do you have for the claim that people won't use the easiest methods for them to get a victory?
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@VikingWilson said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2442604#Comment_2442604
"Not everyone will play nice" is no reason to not make changes
No, but "these changes encourage killers to stop playing nice since those methods will guarantee wins with a quarter of the effort" is.
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While Chris Redfield is the most man-candy video game character ever, I do think that in terms of DBD renditions, Autumn Beard Felix has him beat.
Therefor: Felix.
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2449243#Comment_2449243
Your rank is showing.
Dead hard is easily the best survivor perk in the game, when you use dead hard to "dodge a hit" yeah, it doesn't do anything. Dead harding "for distance" when you round a corner and dead hard to a pallet or window that you otherwise missed, extends the chase by an extra 20 seconds at least.
And you miss the point.
The argument was that DH is unearned, that it rewards players for playing poorly. I point out that it doesn't, unless DH is used properly, which isn't some skill-less endeavour.
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It was tried five years ago when DBD was a completely different game and it didn't work then, so that obviously means that there's zero chance it could work now.
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No.
If the perk's intent is to punish 'not doing bones', it shouldn't come swinging full force out of a single remaining totem, nor should it come without a totem counter.
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I don't mind the killer's perk meta. I've never been bothered by any killer perk outsid of NOED, really, and NOED is a pain due to its horrendous design.
For the survivor meta, I hate why it's there. Some killers just want to minimise gameplay and about half the survivor meta perks are about countering that aspect. Really, only Dead Hard comes to mind as a meta non-counter pick. There's no proper solution for tunnelling, but I want camping and slugging to be addressed so at the very least, UB can go off the list, and possibly BT and DS as well.
But as long as there's camping, tunnelling and slugging, the survivor meta will include those three picks.
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@Killing_Time said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2452161#Comment_2452161
Stop playing that was mostly dude to hook suicide and DC
As evidenced by...?
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@Raccoon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2452045#Comment_2452045
Do you think killers have a 'perk tax?'
Sort of. I think most killers will agree that some form of slowdown perk is almost mandatory. Most will go for Ruin Undying or Corrupt.
We do still get to choose though, as there's multiple options to fill the niche, and you can suffice with two or even one slot filled, so it's less egregious than with survivors.
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FTP and Autodidact are some of the most fun survivor perks. FTP can be a phenomenal playmaker, even if it's rare. I had one instance where me and another Felix were getting chased by Huntress in the badham preschool undercroft. She downed him just as he reached the godpallet, and I immediately used FTP to get him up, after which he slammed the pallet on her. We both got out after that.
Autodidact is pure garbage 90% of the time and helps the killer more than the survivors, but that 50% hit is fantastic.
For killer, I quite like overcharge. The panic pops are excellent. I like Surge too, a well-placed one feels very satisfying.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2452242#Comment_2452242
A) Why is it not gameplay? If waiting on a gen is gameplay why is waiting on a hook not? Its part of playing the game and the match interaction loop between players, I think by definition that is gameplay.
B) If the camp detector is only 1 tile the killer can just camp from right outside the tile. This is one of the fundamental problems with this system. If its small then killers can just camp outside it, if its larger survivors can just loop inside it.
You'll trade hooks eventually but this still leaves the problems of survivors abusing it to get more time on gens with less pressure, the person on hooked getting camped for longer, and the killer getting punished for "camping" because the survivor forced them into that situation.
The problem didn't exist because survivors could loop longer, it existed because survivors could extend the hook timer to get gens done with less pressure and the killer had no good option to work against it. All those problems are still there as far as I see.
I honestly don't think there's a way to get this particular system to work fairly.
A) Because there IS no gameplay. You have no choices. You either do nothing and get removed from the game, or you remove yourself from the game earlier.
Even on a normal hook, you have more gameplay, because you can take stock of your surroundings, track the killer so you know where to go or if you have time to get healed. A facecamper makes that pointless, since you can't get rescued. Thus: no gameplay.
Even sitting on gens has gameplay, since you constantly have to make decisions. Should I move to a different side? Which way is the killer coming from? Should I help a hooked/injured teammate? Is this a safe gen?
A lot of those do fall away if the killer camps, but it's still got more agency than getting facecamped.
B) The problem is that that tactic benefits the killer compared to normal play. Because the alternative is that the killer has to find the survivors to then play out the exact same scene, but this time they're not able to block a rescue at the same time.
If a killer is looped around the hook long enough for this tactic to be a problem, then the killer just isn't good enough and would suffer the same consequences no matter where he gets looped.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2452145#Comment_2452145
A) I don't see why not. it is. I don't like it, but it is. I understand its boring and uninteractive. But the devs put it in the game, they keep it in the game and have stated they're fine with it, its part of the game. Its not for you or me to say its not. If you want to decide what counts as part of the game you'll need to make your own game or be a dev for one.
Its like gens, I don't like the mechanic, its boring and all you do is sit there and look around while a bar fills up, but its part of the game. I don't like the on hook mechanic, all you do is sit there and look around while a bar goes down, but its part of the game.
Saying you're not playing the game just because you're on a gen is silly imo, as is a hook. DBD is a game that has moments where you just sit around waiting for something to happen.\Just because you don't like the situation doesn't mean that changes, its still part of the game.
B) Because nothing has changed that would effect the way it was abused. Other things have been changed absolutely, but nothing has changed that would somehow make the system less abusive now than before. All survivors did was be near the hook to keep the killer there and by extension the timer paused. You put it in today, they do the same thing because nothing has changed in regards to that situation.
Keep in mind this entire time that survivor on hook is camped even longer than the current system since their timer pauses. It was worse for both the killer and the person getting camped because of their teammate. If you put that in today, what would be different about it?
Other things have changed around that problem, but the problem itself would still be there. What has changed that would make this situation not happen? AFAIK nothing.
A) It's part of the game, but it's not gameplay. It's the functional equivalent of waiting for energy in a mobile game.
Genrushing against a camper IS gameplay, just really boring. But being on the hook against a camper isn't gameplay.
B) The old system had survivors stay near the hook. But that was back when windows didn't lock, when there was no bloodlust, when survivors could always fast vault. If you restrict yourself to one map tile now, you -will- go down, no matter what. So if you try to abuse this by looping under hook now, you just trade hooks, -at best-.
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Reworked Freddy before his latest nerf had the highest red rank kill rate.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2450737#Comment_2450737
"hanging on a hook while a killer is staring at you isn't 'playing the game'."
You're in the game and its part of playing it, so again just because you don't like it doesn't mean its not part of the game. Its similar to hiding in hide n' go, are you actively doing anything? No. Are you playing the game. Yes.
Its not for you or me to decide what is and is not part of the game, thats the devs. To my understanding, according to them its part of playing the game/is allowed.
"Camping is a complete game design failure and must be rectified."
Not really, you just don't agree with the playstyle. The most I can give you is that its subjective and that's your opinion.
"Right, the mythical 'genrush', where you hope you can clear the gens and open the gates faster than the killer can stare at the first hook. Great counter, fantastic gameplay, 10/10."
If I can do it, and other people say to do it because it works, and it has been shown to work, its not "mythical". It is a counter. If more survivors did it camping would go down, but they don't. Oh well. They're playing a large part in their own campy misery as far as I'm concerned and can see.
"Then let me quote every single killer main on this forum when faced with any gameplay critique: Git gud.
OR
Accept that camping is a problem and both sides of the game can make a trade to solve both issues at the same time.'
But when the players "git gud" is exactly where the problem arises. Because (usually) theres not much the killer can do with the current game balance against a good team, even if the killer is also good.
gitting gud is exactly the reason why the problem exist. So thats already happened.
Unless you're just trying to use it as a cop out for your lack of an argument, in which case: you struggle against camping? Git gud skrub.
Camping is not a problem to me. I don't believe its a problem in general as its not causing a balance issue as well as it has a base kit counter. It is to you for whatever reason. If people like you want it gone you have 2 options in your direct control that you can start working on right now:
1) Counter it with the base kit counter you already have so killers can't climb with it and stop doing it because it makes them lose
2) Come to a compromise with the killer community and the survivor community to play for fun and not to win
"The concern is that you, and about half of these killer-main infested forums are adamant that this counter should be removed. (And NOED exists, whose counter is mutually exclusive with that of camping)"
I don't want gen rushing removed so please do not assume, but at least put on par with tunneling in terms of speed, which its not. Both of these are optimal strats for either side, they should be equivalent. I also want an actual adequate counter to gen rushing because as of right now there isn't one. Survivors will still win if you tunnel since in 3-5 hooks at most thats a 1k, so a survivor victory.
Thats a survivor victory just because they held m1 and the devs decided thats going to be way faster than the killer actively chasing and downing for their objective.
If survivors want to play to win by focusing gens then fine. If killers want to play to win by tunneling then fine. But these should be equal in power. Right now its survivor skewed.
What I really want is for both gen rushing and tunneling to be designed out the game.
As for NoED, if they camping when they got time to NoED anyone? If you did it right you guys will be out well before the 2nd person dies, the the killer isn't chasing anyone they're camping. If you didn't your team did something wrong.
"And in addition, it's not fun. One person not playing, the other three just holding M1 on gens without any threat from the killer, and the killer himself just watching a screensaver. I keep saying it: If every killer started facecamping tomorrow, the game would be dead before the end of the week. No one wants to play this. The only reason the game hasn't been crippled is because the majority of killers either prefer fun over victory or are actually good enough to not need to camp. But we shouldn't need to hang by on a thread of sheer goodwill."
On this I can agree with. Its boring on both sides. I can't stand camping as a killer because I don't just want to stand around. I am one of those players who prefers fun over victory. However, thats my decision and my opinion. If people think their win is more important then their fun, then so be it. Some people have fun by playing to win. Might not be fun for me, but to them it might be. People can play to win, thats fine. However these same people will stop camping if survivors used the counter against it and stopped giving them wins since the only reason why they are camping is because it gets them wins.
I have a friend who camps every game, when I asked why they said "because why am I going to go and look for survivors when they're going to come to me and give me the win themselves."
"Except the increase in sacrifice timer means survivors aren't under as much pressure to get unhooks,"
Imo, the pressure to unhook should be because the killer is downing your team and making you weaker, if all 4 of you are hooked at once the game is over for you. Not because of some arbitrary timer. The timer can be 5 years, but the gens just have to take long enough where its reasonable for the killer to down your entire team before you can finish them if you don't get a good number of saves and for the killer to get however many hooks we want killer's to aim to get, popular number seems to be 12. I don't consider ~4 saves and they survivors escape because the gens were done in 5 minuets or less a "good number".
If the sacrifice timer took 1 hour, but the killer can get 12 hooks if they play well/better because gens don't fly, camping evaporates and you have more interactive games.
As long as the survivors feel pressured to get an unhook because of some timer, the killer can camp because they don't have to put the pressure on, the timer will. The pressure needs to be shifted away from the timer and onto the killers own actions, but that cant happen with current gen times as the killer cannot put out enough pressure on their own in the gen timeframe.
"again, killers average around 60% kill rate or higher on red ranks."
Again, those killrates are unreliable to draw any concrete conclusion as stated by the people who released them themselves.
"Top 1% balancing"
I do NOT want top 1% balancing, I really dislike top 1% balancing, I want good player balancing. We don't even have that much. With good players survivors stomp and outside of 3-5 killers (depending on who you ask), the killer roster isn't viable.
Heck, a lot of my friends are just decent and that's enough to roll over a lot of killers if we play together. Right now killers need a bad player on the survivor team to stand a chance. Its frustrating for both sides. Killer's feel like they can't win because they survivors just aren't bad, and the survivors feel like they lose just because they had a bad teammate.
"You said it yourself, there's plenty of potatoes in red ranks"
Fix matchmaking/ranks, balance killers accordingly.
"So hook progression is slowed when the killer is under the hook and not in a chase"
They tried this before and survivors abused it. So you can blame them for that not being a thing anymore.
As for your suggestion, again you'll need a better anti-camp measure as that won't work as it'll favor the survivors way too much. But otherwise I can see it maybe working, but my concern is "ok killers in chase 3 way a gen. Oh he's here someone lead him away. Ok duo the gen now since he can only chase one person."
Wouldn't hurt to test with a better camp system, but honestly just increasing gen and hook times to be to where way more of the match plays out would be much simpler imo. Make the killer have to apply pressure but give them the time to do so and you don't even need to make a whole new system behind it, just slam up some numbers. Camping solved the killer needs to make pressure themselves, gen rush solved if you give the killer enough time to do so, all that's left is tunneling.
The problem with tunneling is that its optimal. So we'd need to make it not optimal. Possible solution could be something like: survivors no longer have individual hooks, once the killer fills up the 12 hook gauge to 8, the next hook for each survivor will sacrifice them. Just spitballing so that probably has some kinks, but you should get the idea.
I'll make a proper reply later, when I'm not on my phone, but
A) I can't take 'waiting for the game to end is part of the gameplay' as a good-faith argument.
And
B) You're content to discredit moderately recent statistics out of hand but declare a five year old experiment's results to hold to this day, even though the game underwent gargantuan changes, most of which benefited the killers.
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@ThiccBudhha said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2452114#Comment_2452114
Turn mmr on and those kill rates will become sub 50% with ease. Rofl.
I wanna see that. Because I really believe that you're wrong.
@TGB said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2452114#Comment_2452114
Stats, in general, in any game, are really hard to take seriously. For a plethora of reasons, for any given game.
In DBD, the difference between solo queue and SWF is the biggest reason.
That being said, my balancing suggestions are the following, without even touching the actual gameplay or balance of it:
- Put on an option to not be matched against SWF's. This option will be default off, so you are defaulted to match against SWF's. That way, the large majority of people who don't care enough to go into their options menu, or who don't know about the option or read patch notes, will still have it enabled. HOWEVER, those that don't want to fight SWF's will be able not to. (And let's be open about the reality that this game, for 5 years, has been openly NOT balanced around SWF's even existing.)
- Make a separate ranking bracket for when you're against SWF's. Whether or not this is a separate queue could go either direction, with keeping them the same queue probably being ideal.
Just two ideas, so not many, but pretty good considering they don't even touch the actual game, I'd say.
Just picking one of these would improve the gaming experience, in my opinion.
As for actual gameplay balancing, oh boy, I could really sit down and brainstorm that for days on end...
Sadly, a non-swiffer queue would split the playerbase too much, but some MMR adjustment for swiffer might work.
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@TGB said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2450471#Comment_2450471
This type of argument is very frequently used in every discussion in every game, because it is generally a very bland and "filler" kind of point to try to make.
First - if there's a problem at the highest level, then that still means the effects bleed out into all levels. We aren't playing a different game. Additionally, the difference between the top 1% of players and the top 2% of players is so minimal, YOU yourself wouldn't even be able to identify the tiny differences. That being said, you don't really understand what you're saying when you make the "point" you're trying to make. Skillful players account for a deeper percentage than the 1% you seem to think. And frankly, the only place where Killers are having "easy games" is against newbies who don't even know what loud noise notifications are.
Killers are OP when everyone's on day 1.
But to suggest that they're up to par after that point? Well, that's just silly.
So what, taking into account the 70% kill rate at red ranks, is your balancing suggestion?
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I try, but if two survivors are out and there's more than one gen left, it's dumpster-divin' time.
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@FancyMrB said:
I love Amanda so much. That being said I think her power and add-ons both need a do-over.
In today DBD rng just doesn't cut it. It is both frustrating for the killer and survivors. Map rng combined with box rng makes Amanda feel very hit or miss and that is never fun to play as or against.
You are right. Tampered Timer combined with the gears is stupidly strong, but it is the only way to make her rbt a threat. Standalone they are joke and no one takes them seriously.
I would really like Amanda's kit to be changed. The crouch, the lunge, the boxes, rbt, all of it! Don't get me wrong, like I said I really love playing her but she is sorely out matched by a lot of other killers ;_; Having to rely on TT and a big map for her power to have any bite is silly. I wonder if the devs can even doing anything about her since she is not their ip.
People take them seriously, because they will rush to get rid of it. The problem is the full RNG nature of the threat. Clearing the trap on box four feels bad for the survivor. Clearing it on box one is trash for Amanda.
And dying before you can get to box five is the cheapest death you can get outside a hook 1 facecamp.
It should always take two or three, bumped up to three or four with the 'plus one box' add-on.
And tampered timer needs to be removed.