Firellius
Firellius
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@Zozzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2814415#Comment_2814415
I only say this because i have been playing him just to land shots and it is rare to ever land a shot when they can see me.
I also never mentioned mmr. If that is what you are referencing. I doubt i am even that high since i spent a long time throwing games to have some fun.
To be fair, you don't always need to get the hit to get value out of the power. If you're looping a pallet, you can prep your power to fake the survivor out, making them not drop the pallet when they should.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
Honestly old Undying was an issue because solo queue and nothing more 🏃 boons are mostly fine as a mechanic, could do with some slight tweaks like a cooldown before you can re-light a totem but outside of that I don't think they really need a change.
And then there's COH, which needs to be nuked.
What I think should be reconsidered about boons is giving all of them the same parameters.
Exponential can do with a bigger radius, while CoH should have a smaller one, for example. Stacking multiple boon perks should just set the radius to the smallest one among the perks equipped, as another limiting factor.
Bless time could also be taken into consideration, with some perks taking longer to bless into a totem than others.
A flat, rigid '14 seconds/24 meters' restricts design space and I don't think there's a good reason for that.
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@Bennett_They1Them said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2813834#Comment_2813834
wait, I thought A was "powerful", B was "solid" S was "OP" and D was "underpowered".
I also thought that most of the balancing issues were on the survivor side of things.
That's the difficulty. The scales have no benchmark or definition, so squabbling over them is pointless. Unless we know what a 'C-tier' is supposed to be, 'A-tier' is meaningless.
@CyberDragoon656 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2813927#Comment_2813927
Ok first off where did you go to school a grading system normally doesn't have an E grade it's A,B,C,D,F so to that logic again it is still middle and secondly, try saying that when you have a terrible matchmaking systems an over abundance of rng and with how forgiving survivor perks are now all mixed together and tell me how "decent" it is after that.
Also just wanted to add this but take a fighting game or any character pvp game and a new character is being released but it's shown that they are on the lower gradings it doesn't matter if they are fun concept wise, who in there right mind would spend 7.99 or so for a character that you will use a handful of times and never look back to again.
I went to a school with a percentual system, instead of a lettering system that apparently randomly skips one.
But if that is the case, I suspect it's the 'F = fail' thing, right? Which'd make a D passable, and a C adequate.
How would it not matter if they're fun or not? I could just sweat it out on Blight/Nurse all the time, sure, but I'll still want to play Pig, or either PH. Fun concepts will also make money. Their perks will make money. And mastering a kit will make a difference. The best Hillbilly will do better than the worst Blight, in disregard of how strong either pick is.
Some people play for fun, some people are skilled. Not everyone is looking to play only S-tier killers.
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@kate_best_girl said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2813834#Comment_2813834
Every killer should be A tier since top survivors still have a chance to win but top killers still have a chance to 4k as well. It's good balance not OP.
That's just a matter of how the scale is benchmarked.
@CyberDragoon656 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2813834#Comment_2813834
No it doesn't, a c grade is right in the middle and why not have them be A rank especially for an asymmetrical game where you have one strong vs 4 weak instead of making them weak and unsatisfactory before they are even released.
Or do you secretly like the game to devolve down to match streaks consisting of 2 killers.
No it doesn't, a c grade is right in the middle
C is above the middle. F is the 6th letter. There's no 'middle' in a string of 6, it's a gap between 3 and 4. The middle is the gap between C and D. So C is above the middle.
and why not have them be A rank especially for an asymmetrical game where you have one strong vs 4 weak instead of making them weak and unsatisfactory before they are even released.
Because you're dealing with balance and you can't just keep pushing killers to higher power tiers. A C tier, realistically, should have a decent shot at getting their hooks in. An A tier would do so with high consistency.
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@kate_best_girl said:
I keep seeing people say "Killers being C tier is perfectly fine!" And I can't help but wonder why you'd think that? Killers being at C tier literally cannot win and seeing as you're forced into constantly being matched against people who are great at escaping specifically you (MMR) I don't see why its okay for a killer to be in a bad position. Wasn't the standard previously "Every killer should be A tier."?
In a scoring system from A to F, C is an above average grade. 'Every killer should be A tier' doesn't seem right, since that'd mean killers would need to lean towards being overpowered, as opposed to a middle of the road point.
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@PlaysByShady said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2812115#Comment_2812115
I don't need to disprove a point you've not made with any coherence. I've literally exposed the flaw in your logic in the most basic form possible, and asked for your clarification on the matter. Thus far you've refused to provide anything of the sort and have just resorted to a variety of logical fallacies that only highlight your ignorance on such matters.
It's a simple enough question... do you believe that a killer who achieved their objective (in your case) should face easier survivors so they can continue killing them (and thus go against easier opponents again), whilst you - even though you died and failed as a survivor (in a clinical sense) - should go against more adept killers, where you'd likely continue to die? Make that make sense. That's literally what you're arguing for, and if you can't make it make sense, then that should be cause for reflection.
"get off of my thread"
Last I checked, you don't own threads, nor have any authority to dictate who may or may not engage. It's a public forum. If you don't like it, or you don't like your opinion being challenged, don't post.
You cannot argue from a base position that flagrantly refuses your opposition's argument.
Karu is saying that the system is an inadequate measurer of skill.
Your counterargument is the following:
It's a simple enough question... do you believe that a killer who achieved their objective (in your case) should face easier survivors so they can continue killing them (and thus go against easier opponents again), whilst you - even though you died and failed as a survivor (in a clinical sense) - should go against more adept killers, where you'd likely continue to die?
Your argument survives only on the presupposition that the system's assessment of skill is correct. However, take this specific match into account and invert your question:
Should this Nemesis, who struggled to get 4 hooks out over the course of the entire match, despite help from a Steve and a Claudette, be made to face more challenging opponents?
Should Karu, who ran the killer for a 2 gen sprint -after- the team had been substantially slowed down, go up against easier killers?
Your argument isn't logical. It hinges on the exact point that Karu is trying to argue: The skill assessment in this system does not serve its intended purpose.
IF you go off the assumption that 'kill = good' and 'die = bad', and that that is all the nuance this game possesses, then yes, your argument holds water. But that's exactly the assumption that Karu is pulling into question here. And I think that the majority of players will side with Karu on this matter.
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@NOEDENJOYER said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2809465#Comment_2809465
I hooked a Claudette, went to chase another survivor and downed them relatively quickly. Hooked them, went to the other side of the map, downed Claudette (who was actually baiting me) and then went to pick her up.
So it was probably a 59 second Decisive Strike, but regardless, I got hit by an anti-tunnel perk when I did the very opposite of tunnelling.
There's no argument you can make that doesn't agree with this being unfair. You can tell me the Claudette was practically AFK for the minute, or that I should've gotten 6 hooks within those 60 seconds (because apparently a 1v3 for less than a minute is an insta win) but whatever, the case is, DS isn't a true anti-tunnel perk, it can be exploited.
And funny enough, the Claudette's friend did the exact same thing, deliberately didn't do anything so they could hit me with DS, out of spite of tunnelling Claudette after she didn't have DS anymore.
There's no argument you can make that doesn't agree with this being unfair. You can tell me the Claudette was practically AFK for the minute, or that I should've gotten 6 hooks within those 60 seconds (because apparently a 1v3 for less than a minute is an insta win) but whatever, the case is, DS isn't a true anti-tunnel perk, it can be exploited.
What was the outcome of that match?
Because if two survivors both spent a minute not contributing anything to their team, I imagine you wound up with more than enough time to 4K.
The perk is not exploitable because it requires you to not contribute at all in order to maintain it. If you circle back to a survivor and they DS you, they've put themselves at a disadvantage.
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@JonahsTablet said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2809714#Comment_2809714
DMS, Boil over, Pain Resonance, COH.
I don't think there were concerns over boil over becoming OP, but more that the buff was turning it into a bully tool.
That said, undoubtedly -something- will be made out to be 'super meta', 'evidence of dev bias' and 'the reason the game is dying', and then it peaks at a 2% pickrate for half a week before never being seen again.
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@fulltonon said:
"result: 4k"
People seem to be skating right past that one.
Seriously, is a 4k not enough anymore or something?
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@Peanits said:
To go into details on that a little bit, removing them is not as simple as selecting tier 1/2 of each perk and pressing delete. In order to reduce each perk to one tier, you'd have to update the bloodweb to support it (and additionally, add support for any already-generated bloodwebs that contain perks below tier 3). Likewise, the perk tiers would have to be removed from the UI wherever they appear, and any place a tier 1 perk could appear (e.g. In the Shrine), you'd have to update it to show the tier 3 version of the perk instead.
So while it sounds very simple and can be said in a couple words ("Remove perk tiers"), it would actually be a substantial amount of work.
As for why it's not a permanent solution: Each time new content is released, not only does the amount of perks increase, but the number of characters you need to unlock all those perks on increases as well. Since you have two different factors increasing here, the grind is increasing exponentially over time, not linearly. Even if removing perk tiers would make it manageable for now, sooner or later it would catch back up and become a massive grind again. We've made changes in the past to reduce the grind, such as reducing bloodweb cost/size, adding additional perks to bloodwebs, etc. While these worked great in the short term, the grind always caught up eventually.
Would it reduce the grind pretty significantly for now? Yes, absolutely! But if we're going to spend a bunch of time on something to fix the grind, it makes more sense to spend the same amount of time and work on a permanent solution instead. (And for what it's worth, we do have something else planned for it!)
Long story short, it's not to shoot down the idea of removing perk tiers. It would reduce the grind, absolutely. It would just take as much time as a more permanent solution.
As for why it's not a permanent solution: Each time new content is released, not only does the amount of perks increase, but the number of characters you need to unlock all those perks on increases as well. Since you have two different factors increasing here, the grind is increasing exponentially over time, not linearly. Even if removing perk tiers would make it manageable for now, sooner or later it would catch back up and become a massive grind again. We've made changes in the past to reduce the grind, such as reducing bloodweb cost/size, adding additional perks to bloodwebs, etc. While these worked great in the short term, the grind always caught up eventually.
A suggestion I proposed for that a while ago: Prestiging a character permanently unlocks one/all of their perks for -everyone-. That way, any character on P1 permanently cuts grind, even for new characters.
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@throwaway79465468797 said:
Definitely Monstrous Shrine... dont think anyone is even using it, not even Basement Bubbas
Ah, see, but Monstrous Shrine is memorable for how garbage it is. A truly forgettable perk has to be just passable, not bad enough to be impactfully bad.
I think Nemesis is a decent candidate.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2806794#Comment_2806794
Things that people 5-10 years younger than you are into are by default 'cringe'.
But in all seriousness :) The theme of DBD is 'old school slasher flick' villains. And those persons/creatures would also need to be easily incorporated in the mold of one of the DBD Killer. Nemesis opens up the realm of video games, but I think the only other one that doesn't really fit the mold is Demogorgon (but Stranger Things was a big fad there for a while, so not sure if it caused a bit of an uproar when it was current. Maybe someone who's been around that long here could shed some light :) )
The theme of DBD is 'old school slasher flick' villains.
I think they've veered off of that and now describe it as the 'horror hall-of-fame', where every major horror franchise has a place. In that kind of reading, FNAF can be argued for, since regardless of people's opinion, it is an extremely high-profile franchise.
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@CyberDragoon656 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2800627#Comment_2800627
Ok this is getting old, first off yes they can since there are perks and a boon that can hide scratch marks along with that lockers and some vault points that can help hide survivors among other things, alot of your arguments sound more like a case of victom blaming because for the most part what I read from any hook argument you have is basically "if anything like bt or that isn't in a survivor's perk build they can't do anything about it at all so ds must stay that way" right does that excuse constant running survivors or people body blocking? To me I would say no cause it should be a bad play but to you I guess it's just fine that's why I keep saying it's a survivors ######### up because if it wasn't for the plethora of second chance perks and the bullshit they allow, most survivors wouldn't be trying to make excuses and try to say the game is balanced when it's not along with most of the ######### survivors having inflated egos for a game that made one side easier than the other at its core.
Secondly, no slugging is not an answer to the original argument I had because of two main reasons first the more simple issue is that since hit validation is the shits there's a chance a hit can be registered as a grab and yes that's more internet than the game but the fact it is an issue for a a game notoriously ######### about dealing with cheaters I might as well bring it up and for the more game based issue, you can try to justify it as putting pressure on the survivors but thanks to UB, adrenaline, one of the boons along with at least two perks that have an effect on the wiggle bars progression it will not work because unless the killer parks their ass on the survivor and wait out the time due to the perks I brought up. And along with that it doesn't stop the survivor crawling and getting healed as well. No a competent killer wouldn't have that problem because since ds is an anti tunneling perk if a survivor is altruistic no matter what your level is you wi still have to deal with it.
And for that little bit about saying stats from the devs and otz are better, tell me this then why is that neither video factors in things like swfs, the rng, specific maps used to show its balanced, and the potentially grim reaper of this game the ######### matchmaking system. Also it's becoming more and more apparent it is survivor biased thanks to more buff to perks and garbage nerfs that fix nothing and the fact that just as a business standing why not appease the 4 instead of the 1. It may not be obvious but it is showing more and more.
Ok this is getting old, first off yes they can since there are perks and a boon that can hide scratch marks along with that lockers and some vault points that can help hide survivors among other things, alot of your arguments sound more like a case of victom blaming because for the most part what I read from any hook argument you have is basically "if anything like bt or that isn't in a survivor's perk build they can't do anything about it at all so ds must stay that way" right does that excuse constant running survivors or people body blocking? To me I would say no cause it should be a bad play but to you I guess it's just fine that's why I keep saying it's a survivors ######### up because if it wasn't for the plethora of second chance perks and the bullshit they allow, most survivors wouldn't be trying to make excuses and try to say the game is balanced when it's not along with most of the ######### survivors having inflated egos for a game that made one side easier than the other at its core.
I want to point out here that you are arguing that DS shouldn't fire if the survivor gets caught, so now you're advocating for pairing DS with perks that make you more difficult to find after you've been unhooked, like Off the Record or Babysitter.
You are legitimately so frustrated with the fact that DS exists at all that, in your opinion, it shouldn't be usable if the survivor gets caught. Which is the only position in which DS can potentially fire.
This is how badly killer-biased you are: One of the easiest to counterplay perks is a problem to you because you believe that, while the survivor can be blamed entirely for things outside their control (Should just evade killer with extra perk sacrifices and magic), the killer is absolved of all guilt when they tunnel someone off hook and instead of slugging them and moving to the next target, they pick them up and risk getting DS'd.
If DS fires, 99% of cases, it's the killer making a mistake. It is the single easiest perk to counterplay.
Secondly, no slugging is not an answer to the original argument I had because of two main reasons first the more simple issue is that since hit validation is the shits there's a chance a hit can be registered as a grab
I'm pretty sure that's actually impossible. Grabs can turn into hits, not the other way around.
and for the more game based issue, you can try to justify it as putting pressure on the survivors but thanks to UB, adrenaline, one of the boons
UB only works once. Adrenaline only works when the last gen fires up. Exponential only works in a limited radius around a totem that had to be blessed beforehand, and can be snuffed before it can benefit the survivor in the unlikely event they went down in its radius. These three perks have a chance at remedying the lowest effort counter to DS, in which case you can just opt to camp out the timer on DS to still have no trouble with it. Or you can just leave and let them expend UB so they won't have it next time you slap them down.
Either way, the survivor is losing extra time.
"But I did too, I chased them and now I don't get a hook!"
Then stop chasing a freshly unhooked survivor. Find another target. DS only works if you focus on this one target.
And along with that it doesn't stop the survivor crawling and getting healed as well.
In which case you're pressuring both the slug and the healer.
I don't know what you're expecting here, really. DS has one (1) singular job: To deter tunnelling. And now you're arguing "But what if I'm tunnelling really hard!?"
You don't just get to ignore survivor perks just because you feel you should be allowed to toggle your brain off.
And for that little bit about saying stats from the devs and otz are better, tell me this then why is that neither video factors in things like swfs, the rng, specific maps used to show its balanced, and the potentially grim reaper of this game the ######### matchmaking system.
Literally every factor is factored in. There's nothing about either Otz' experiment or that of the devs that was procured from a curated environment. Otz just hit the play button like you or I might do: He was dealing with swiffers, with RNG, with maps, and with matchmaking.
And likewise, the dev's stats dealt with all of that. They did say Swiffers had an up to 15% increased escape rate over solos, but the overall escape rate was still below 50%. All of the matches they pulled data from were subject to RNG, and they specifically highlighted two maps: The most and least kill-heavy maps. Surprise surprise: The most 'survivor-sided map' still had a 50% kill rate.
Both of these were dealing with the matchmaking in the exact same way as you or I. The only difference that could be marked is that if the matchmaking is working, Otz would have a harder time than you or I. If it isn't, then we'd potentially have a harder time than him.
But a bad matchmaking doesn't make the game 'survivor-sided'.
Also it's becoming more and more apparent it is survivor biased thanks to more buff to perks
The vast majority of survivor perks are garbage, and they still need more buffs in order to be impactful enough to justify picking over something like DS. Which, in itself is also a bad perk, but at least it can get boneheaded killers who just hardcore tunnel into it.
and the fact that just as a business standing why not appease the 4 instead of the 1.
That's a motivation, not an actual piece of evidence.
It may not be obvious but it is showing more and more.
No. You know what's going on?
Kill rates have dropped. But they're dropping TO 50%, not FROM 50%. The game is slowly inching towards the survivors' side, that is true. But it's coming from a place where the average kill rate at red ranks was 70%. By the only metrics available, the game WAS heavily killer sided, and is now only -slightly- killer-sided.
And that -feels- unfair to you.
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@SOULWARRIOR71K said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2802940#Comment_2802940
I still 4ked but that’s not the point. If I wasn’t as an experienced killer main I would have gotten steamrolled without being able to stop it. I find it problematic that we are just supposed to accept that 40% of gens will be done before the game even starts.
You do realise how much you sound like a sore winner here, right?
"I got a 4k, but it's bullcrap that the survivors stood a chance in the first place!"
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@CyberDragoon656 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2797232#Comment_2797232
Yeah when did I say they shouldn't run? I never said they shouldn't run what I am saying is that survivors should be punished for being obvious.
I know they get the notice right after hook that's why bt exist yet you expect me to accept that if a survivor ######### up that they should keep their perk because of fuckups that caused.
Also for one let me ask you this since apparently it's considered "whining" if a survivor runs to a spot and gets in a situation where they get caught what do you suppose the does cause from what you decided to answer you want to say the choice is either eat the ds or ignore them maybe instead of considering it whining maybe actually figure why I'm saying this instead of just jumping to "KiLLer waNt 4K" like most who don't accept people saying certain things.
Also for ds I said flat out I understand what it is meant for however much like I asked why should it be used in ways that encourage it and instead you decided to basically say that ds should be used in ways to encourage it because it is for aggressive play which the perk was not made to do.
And lastly yes I do have the moniker for survivor complaints boiling down to "don't get caught" because the game atm fluctuates on how the survivors play now. So IMO right now camping ,tunneling, slugging are now viable thanks to both the balance and survivors.
Yeah when did I say they shouldn't run? I never said they shouldn't run what I am saying is that survivors should be punished for being obvious.
'Being obvious'. IE: The killer getting a notification when you get pulled off the hook and then having to run away with bright red marks showing where you went.
I know they get the notice right after hook that's why bt exist yet you expect me to accept that if a survivor ######### up that they should keep their perk because of fuckups that caused.
Again 'survivor ######### up'. What are you supposed to do when the killer comes charging in, two seconds after you've been pulled off the hook? You're still injured, you're easily traceable and the killer knows exactly when you get off the hook.
Not to mention that you're casually throwing in another perk, and this one isn't even in the unhooked survivor's control!
cause from what you decided to answer you want to say the choice is either eat the ds or ignore them
Or, option 3: SLUG THEM. They ain't helping their team when they're tuckered out on the ground, and they haven't been helping their team since they got pulled off the hook. They've practically taken themselves out of the fight for a full minute, and you got extra pressure all that time.
Also for ds I said flat out I understand what it is meant for however much like I asked why should it be used in ways that encourage it and instead you decided to basically say that ds should be used in ways to encourage it because it is for aggressive play which the perk was not made to do.
No, you misunderstand: DS is meant as an anti-tunnelling perk, but it is one of the most easily counterplayed perks in the game. If the killer opts not to tunnel, the perk doesn't work, at all.
And so people will try to use it aggressively so they can get SOME value out of their band-aid perk. And I would like to remind you: Against a competent killer, this has a near zero percent chance of working, and is much more likely to cost the survivors.
Whether DS has any value at all is entirely down to the killer.
or atleast use it as evidence to say "the game is not survivor sided" or "the game is balanced" it cannot be used as much as they want it to be.
It doesn't need to be used 'as much as they want it to be'. It can be used, period, and that is enough, considering there is NO evidence pointing to the game being survivor-sided. So as flimsy as the stats and Otz' experiment might be as data, it still beats out the 'anecdata' propping up the idea that the game is survivor-sided.
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@AngyKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2798477#Comment_2798477
doing five totems is the bad choice unless the killer is so absolutely garbo that the survivors have all the time in the world.
Or, and the one thing you and every Survivor ignores; you can keep an eye on totems and see if one lights up. Then, you only have to do ONE totem! Wow!
But you, and every Survivor, keep acting like this idea does not exist and all 4 Survivors are expecting to do 5 totems each. Because that sounds so much harder than 'Do 1 totem each, plus 1 more.' or 'Keep an eye on totems & see if one lights up'.
Funny thing is; Survivors 'dont have time to do 5 totems', ever, but sure as hell have time to re-bless totems 50000000 times to get Circle of Healing to work. Almost like it's a lie to demand changes/nerfs to NoED instead of getting off of gens to counter a Killer perk.
Face it; your idea ruins NoED, and it's designed to ruin NoED. You're making the same bad faith argument of 'Doing 5 totems is SOOO HARD!' as if one person has to do all 5. Because it's easier to cry to nerf NoED while lying that it's 'For the health of the game' instead of getting off gens when you see a totem.
NoED is fine. Get off gens. It does not need a change or lazy-arse hand-holding nerf that benefits Survivors under the same bullshit warcry every Survivor uses 'It's for the health of the game!'. 99% of the time; 'The health of the game' = 'The enjoyment of Survivors'.
NoED is fine. Do bones. Survivors don't deserve to know it exists just because they want the game to spoon-feed them information they're too lazy to think about.
The only part I agree with, with a caveat: Anyone NOT in an SWF should have a totem count on screen. Or have one pop up when they clean a totem. This way, they know if totems have been worked on when they contribute to totems being worked on.
Or, and the one thing you and every Survivor ignores; you can keep an eye on totems and see if one lights up. Then, you only have to do ONE totem! Wow!
Oh no, I don't ignore that. But everyone else does when they say it's the survivors' mistake for letting NOED pop!
And even then it's not a perfect solution because the totem is assigned at complete random, making the perk RNG. 'But that goes for every Hex!', and none of them grant a persistent 4% movespeed boost + instadown. Proportionality is a thing.
4 Survivors are expecting to do 5 totems each. Because that sounds so much harder than 'Do 1 totem each, plus 1 more.'
Good luck coordinating that in solo queue. Remember: No totem counter! No communication! You'll just have to guess that your teammates all did one and no more than that, or else you're gonna keep looking for totem number 5 which is actually already gone, or you get on gens after you did what ever killer main shouts down your face and 'did your bones' only to find that you were the only one to do bones!
Nah lad, great design.
Funny thing is; Survivors 'dont have time to do 5 totems', ever, but sure as hell have time to re-bless totems 50000000 times to get Circle of Healing to work. Almost like it's a lie to demand changes/nerfs to NoED instead of getting off of gens to counter a Killer perk.
Another smoothbrained killer main take: "They can do one totem with the ability to recuperate their time by either benefiting off the perk or having the killer expend time to counterplay it, so they can absolutely do five totems for zero gain!"
It's almost as dumb as 'Hexes should be relightable because boons are'.
Face it; your idea ruins NoED, and it's designed to ruin NoED.
By 'ruin', you mean making it actually a consistent game mechanism and giving it a fairer counterplay while buffing killers on the side. But that ain't good enough for you, you want survivors to be at the mercy of RNG while also calling it a 'mistake' if it fires.
You're making the same bad faith argument of 'Doing 5 totems is SOOO HARD!' as if one person has to do all 5.
It's solo play. If you aren't doing all five, you're not countering NOED. The default doesn't allow any communication. Even if everyone tried to do their bit, they'd just as easily risk wasting extra time.
Because it's easier to cry to nerf NoED while lying that it's 'For the health of the game' instead of getting off gens when you see a totem.
You get off a gen to cleanse a totem, you're throwing the match. Because you are actively making sure that IF NOED does spawn, it doesn't spawn right next to you.
You still haven't wrapped your head around this, have you?
NoED is fine. Get off gens.
You want NOED to get people to cleanse totems, make it baseline. Layer upon layer of risk to 'doing bones' just ensures that it's better not to.
I would ask you to stop centering your entire perspective on a baseline principle of 'the survivor is at fault', but hey, I think your username says enough about the chances of that happening.
There's no point in continuing this discussion because you are absolutely too stuck in your anti-survivor mindset.
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@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2798477#Comment_2798477
It doesn't though. Is it really that hard to get to end game. THEN find it ? I don't think so.
That depends entirely on RNG and the killer's performance, don't you think?
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@BabyCameron10 said:
I know it’s getting a change soon but for now, How do you guys deal with it?
I felt like a POS for a slugging a Nea who brought Boil Over and a Crow’s Eye offering. She kept going to the top and wanted to get downed there so she can get use out of Boil Over and I can prevent hooking her. I didn’t bother hooking her because there wasn’t any hooks around.
I didn’t really struggle to keep her there as I was playing The Twins. It was pretty funny as I kept her on the ground with Charlotte and went to apply pressure with Victor. I would’ve really like to see her reaction but she was on a different platform. I felt pretty scummy for doing that to her but she kinda had it in for her. She ended up getting killed because of the timer for being slugged so long.
Is there any way to get to the hook in a situation like that or do I keep doing that for now?
I felt like a POS for a slugging a Nea who brought Boil Over and a Crow’s Eye offering. She kept going to the top and wanted to get downed there so she can get use out of Boil Over and I can prevent hooking her. I didn’t bother hooking her because there wasn’t any hooks around.
Sounds like Nea got -exactly- what she wanted. Just in a monkey paw kinda way.
Don't feel bad. Nea was trying to ruin your game.
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@AngyKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2798451#Comment_2798451
You want it to stay a gamble, so that killers can benefit from the perk -without having to equip it-.
What? I'm the one saying it should NOT be base-kit, because that ruins now knowing if the Killer has it or not! I'm the one wanting it to stay a perk!
You said:
the perk would be considerably more fair if it and a totem counter were baseline
Implying you want NoED to be baseline alongside a count of totems still in a match.
I don't. Making NoED baseline means it never sees end-game, because Survivors will ALWAYS know it exists. Survivors won't pop the 5th gen until they're sure all totems have popped. At that point; what is the point of NoED's power? If it can't be used; why does it exist as it does?
At that point; you could remove it and just say 'All 5 totems must be cleansed along with 5 gens done, or Survivors are Exposed', because NoED would NEVER pop.
You seem to be ignoring that, for NoED to BE NoED; it needs to be UNKNOWN, so Survivors can make mistakes.
Instead, you demand Survivors have their hands held with yet ANOTHER bullshit mechanic, and the ability to make mistake involving NoED MUST be removed, because Survivors making mistakes the Killer can use is bad, apparently?
You seem to be ignoring that, for NoED to BE NoED; it needs to be UNKNOWN, so Survivors can make mistakes.
Instead, you demand Survivors have their hands held with yet ANOTHER bullshit mechanic, and the ability to make mistake involving NoED MUST be removed, because Survivors making mistakes the Killer can use is bad, apparently?
This is the exact point.
Objectively, PURELY objectively, undeniably, doing five totems is the bad choice unless the killer is so absolutely garbo that the survivors have all the time in the world.
And you are labelling it as 'the survivors making mistakes'.
It's NOT a mistake. It's just that the counterplay to NOED is such an absolute dumpsterfire tier of risk/reward ratio that it is just flat out tactically bad decision-making to commit to it. But SOMEHOW, you arrive at the conclusion that 'the survivors made a mistake'.
That is the part that needs to go. It needs to ACTUALLY be a mistake if the survivors let it pop, and you can't have that happen if there's a very real chance that the counterplay has you torpedoing your own team for literally zero reward.
It can't be a gamble.
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@AngyKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2798405#Comment_2798405
The 'bad thing' is that it's EFFECT would be useless. May as well rewrite the perk to say 'Survivors can't open the exit gates unless they cleanse all 5 gens'. Because it's effect would be non-existent, and only exist as a big enough threat to force Survivors to do bones.
Give SOloQ a totem counter. I agree with this.
But NoED HAS to stay an unknown threat or else it counters itself. It cannot be a known factor in every match, or Survivors would know to totem hunt before popping that 5th gen. If you can't understand this; either you should not be talking about perk balance, or you're ignoring it to fit your arguments.
But then the 'entire point' -isn't- to pull survivors off of gens, is it?
Sure, if you want to keep your instadowns, it won't fix it, but it would at least be fair. What you are proposing is a combination of both: You want it to continue having an unfair counterplay -in addition- to a really strong effect if/when it pops.
You want it to stay a gamble, so that killers can benefit from the perk -without having to equip it-.
If you can't understand this; either you should not be talking about perk balance, or you're ignoring it to fit your arguments.
I absolutely understand the impact. Point is: I don't care. And two posts ago, neither did you, because you described the perk's 'entire point' as being 'to get survivors OFF GENS'.
Have it be a hex perk for instadowns and speed boost? Fine.
Have it be a slowdown perk on par with a permanently maxed out Thanatophobia? Fine.
Driving its counterplay on RNG and creating a hardline 'damned if you do, damned if you don't? Not fine.
You want it to be a gamble, so it can stay out of survivor control, which feeds back to my original argument about how this forum treats killer autonomy vs. survivor autonomy.
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@AngyKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2798348#Comment_2798348
If It and a totem counter were baseline; It would NEVER see endgame play. Ever.
Survivors would ALWAYS know it was in play. You may as well just make 'Cleanse 5 totems' a requirement for exiting through the gates, at that point, because NoED would not exist by the time 5th gen pops.
I can get behind 'have a totem counter' be baseline if you're not in a SWF. It helps branch the massive gulf between SWF and SoloQ.
But the POINT of NoED is not knowing if it exists. This way; Survivors can possibly be punished if they 'genrush'. You make NoED 100% exists in every match and, sure, Gens slow down slightly, but it would NEVER see end-game. Ever.
There would be no more risk vs reward. No more punishment for making the wrong call because the risk has been removed to make Survivors happy. It goes from 'Do they have NoED? Can I pound this gen?' to 'Time to 99% the last 3 gens, then totem hunt! Because they always have NoED!'
It's more hand-holding bullshit meant to make Survivors happy while kicking Killers in the balls. It removes the threat of NoED, and any chance of it making end-game at all. Because Survivors don't like making bad calls, IE: Deciding to 'genrush' & getting slapped by NoED.
"The ENTIRE POINT of the perk is to get Survivors OFF OF GENS."
"If It and a totem counter were baseline; It would NEVER see endgame play. Ever."
So you're saying it would succeed at the thing that is, according to you, 'its entire point', and you somehow also paint this as a bad thing.
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@AngyKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2798276#Comment_2798276
Sorry but I'm tired of seeing the same bullshit almost once a day:
'It rewards failure!'
No, it does not. The Killer has not failed just because 5 gens pop.
'The Killer has basically lost!'
No, he has not. He has not lost just because 5 gens pop.
'Doing 5 gens is unfair!'
The ENTIRE POINT of the perk is to get Survivors OFF OF GENS. It's an anti-'genrush' perk. Note: I put 'genrush' in quotes because there is no such thing; 'genrushing' is Survivors playing their goal efficiently. But the term serves for my point; It exists to slow down gen speeds by forcing Survivors to look for totems.
It's a risk vs reward:
- You risk cleansing totems. Either your risk pays off & you stop NoED before it happens. Or you do gens and get smacked.
- Alternatively: You risk doing totems, and you wasted time because the Killer never had NoED.
This perk literally has the most Survivor interaction of any Killer perk, in that they decide if it even activates, and have to be aware of it's threat in every match.
And all Survivors can do is whine and snivel that 'doing totems is unfaiiiiiiir!' because they want to lick gens, flashlight-clicky, and twerk out the exit gates ASAP. So they invent lies and bullshit fail-state scenarios in order to push this false narrative that NoED is somehow this Uber Perk that gets 4Ks automatically when it activates.
But I don't see NoED teleporting Survivors onto hooks. I don't see it giving Killers aura-reading or Killer Instinct. So I don't get how Survivors can gurgle 'It gives FREE KILLS!' and expect anyone even slightly intelligent to believe them.
It's all bullshit and lies screamed every day until they actually start to believe their own false narrative, and then they scream LOUDER because they went from 'lazy liar' to 'It actually gives free kills! Just don't ask how!'
The ENTIRE POINT of the perk is to get Survivors OFF OF GENS. It's an anti-'genrush' perk. Note: I put 'genrush' in quotes because there is no such thing; 'genrushing' is Survivors playing their goal efficiently. But the term serves for my point; It exists to slow down gen speeds by forcing Survivors to look for totems.
That is precisely why NOED is such a dumpsterfire of gamedesign.
It's a risk vs reward
You risk cleansing totems. Either your risk pays off & you stop NoED before it happens. Or you do gens and get smacked.
Alternatively: You risk doing totems, and you wasted time because the Killer never had NoED.
And that is why. The counterplay is an investment of five totems against no guaranteed reward. As a coordinated effort, this might work, but survivors don't get those tools as baseline, so that's out of the window already. This gets compounded by the fact that it is a lengthy process and only full, 100% completion offers ANY benefit, and then ONLY if the killer actually did bring this perk, which survivors have no way of telling. Then, even if you do manage to get all totems done against a killer who DOES have NOED, as mentioned before, it competes with Thanatophobia for a slow-down perk.
And in theory that is all fine...
But the fact that it's 100% risk with little to no chance for an actual reward, means the 'counterplay' is massively disproportionate.
And then you have to remember the way it works if you fail to get all five totems: It will find that last totem and take that one, which means if you cleansed all the totems you COULD find, all you accomplished was both wasting time AND guaranteeing that the perk is shunted into the totem you CAN'T find. In which case your effort is rewarded by making the perk a bigger problem than it would've been if you hadn't touched -any- totem.
Which, in short, means that NOED actively discourages the cleansing of dull totems.
Legitimately, the perk would be considerably more fair if it and a totem counter were baseline. Because then it -actually- is in the survivors' control.
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@AngyKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2797232#Comment_2797232
NOED is a strong perk with unfair counterplay.
Oh no! Being able to TURN OFF AN ENTIRE PERK by doing 5 or 1 totem is SOOOOO UNFAIR! 😥
Survivors won't be happy until they remove anything that can kill them. This statement basically proves that. Clearly, having to do totems is 'unfair' because Survivors want to lick gens and twerk out the exit in sub-5 minutes. Anything that stops the genrush is just automatically 'unfair'. Boo-hoo. 😭
Thanks for your insightful contribution, I guess?
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@fulltonon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2798043#Comment_2798043
It's viable and valid tactic, but at the same time BHVR added a punishment (which doesn't really change anything because you can "counter" it) and bunch of counter perks (which doesn't work against facecamp king, the cannibal), they are still trying to stop it too, they just don't know how to actually stop it without breaking game.
You know, "game is not survivor sided because you can facecamp a survivor to death" is pretty weird, especially when BHVR is more or less trying to fight that very tactic.
Actually, I believe BHVR have gone on record to say that camping, slugging and tunnelling are valid strategies. The only thing they've stated is that they want to remove -face-camping, not regular camping.
But in disregard of the devs' stance, it is the current state of the game that camping is a very powerful tactic. As are tunnelling and slugging. You can complain about having to use those tactics to win, and I'd be sympathetic. But you're also in the minority on these forums as evidenced by how many times complaints about camping, tunnelling and slugging get brought up by survivors and subsequently discredited.
I'd be all for a big balancing overhaul where those three tactics are kneecapped and survivors are toned down to compensate. But that requires a strong enough consensus from the community to convince the devs to do that for the sake of game health. And as it stands, people just want to nerf the opposite side without losing what they have themselves.
@AsherFrost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2798020#Comment_2798020
1. How much is consistently? From the videos I've seen he posts about 2 wins to each loss, which, if every one of his matches are shown (which we know they aren't) he's at about a 66% win rate. That's certainly good, but hardly amazing, and these are (ostensibly) against randoms teams picked by the mmr to face what should be one of the highest ranked killers (if again, we assume all the gameplay we've seen is both legit and complete)
2. Because the mmr system is hot garbage.
Out of a string of 75 matches, he lost one. That's pretty good consistency in my book. Even by the metric you post, a 66% win rate is pretty damn high and it shows that a competent killer can easily win much more than lose.
Matchmaking being wonk is a fair counterargument, but that also throws a spanner into the idea of the game being survivor-sided, since we clearly don't have a way to actually assess what the average game is -supposed- to look like due to matchmaking errors.
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@fulltonon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2798020#Comment_2798020
You know, I DO consistently win my matches, too.
winning match against randos is pretty much nothing... I can count their mistakes every time, and I know I had no chance when they didn't make one.
even if killers plays "perfectly", there is no chance to win when survivors plays same.
Even though you can secure kills by cheesy camp tactic, that's not emblem efficient nor BP efficient, which is meant to be a guide to "how you play this game".
There is some actually decent killers who can do good against those people though.
Even though you can secure kills by cheesy camp tactic or using actually decent killers, that's not emblem efficient nor BP efficient, which is meant to be a guide to "how you play this game".
Really? Because whenever someone complains about facecamping, there's about a dozen people on this forum who'll come out of the woodwork to say it's a viable, valid tactic that is entirely intentional by BHVR and should never be addressed.
Can't have your cake and eat it too.
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@fulltonon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2798014#Comment_2798014
Wanna see objective evidence?
que time, in most region there is no time of the day killer is faster, it shows how most people can't have fun in killer games.
That's funny, the 'objective evidence' showed me that queue length fluctuated throughout the day, and that morning/early afternoon queues were faster for survivor than killer, which would reverse by the end of the day.
It couldn't be because an asymmetrical PvP game built on a 1v4 system has fluctuations in population based on time of day, could it?
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@AsherFrost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2797985#Comment_2797985
I mean, some of those teams literally weren't running full builds (2-3 green perks, no/brown items with brown addons) it's difficult to imagine they are at the same skill level as a guy who literally plays because it's his job, and who specifically brought in the best full loadout he could get for each killer.
He also ran perkless with a 30 second delay. And even then, those are matches the average killer can get as well.
@fulltonon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2797985#Comment_2797985
No, it's just that both shift+w and safe palette (which consists 80% of chasing) is uncounterable for normal M1 killers beside using time by breaking palettes/holding W, and those things will make enough time to finish generators.
So, yes, killers are never bad, because anything they do doesn't affect outcome... aka chase time.
So then why does Otz consistently win his matches, when according to the forums, the average killer barely struggles to average 1 to 2 hooks? Unless the forums are, for some reason, consistently matched against higher survivors than a killer player who is apparently too good to be compared to, but I think that would be indicative of a very different problem.
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@AsherFrost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2797746#Comment_2797746
1. Still trying to pretend any current match has 5 dull totems? And even with that there's still a 1/8th difference. When you look at the 2-3 that are actually likely, it's 28-32 seconds... Hardly a "hefty" impact. As far as time searching, you're going to count that for totems but not gens? Really? Both have a limited number of physical places they can spawn, and are usually pretty close to each other.
2. Killers have 4 perks, all of which can be seen by the survivors. I don't buy the argument that people always think the killer may have noed. Maybe in the first few seconds, but once you've seen gens blocked at the beginning of the match (CI) killed 2 lit totems (ruin, undying) and saw the killer head straight for a teammate after getting a hook (bbq) it's plain as day they don't have a 5th perk. (And that's just using the build I've been playing against pretty much consistently for the last few days)
3. Thats why it can be completely removed. If you think the killer has it, you have the option (in addition to dispelling as you would any hex) to remove it before the game starts. You can't do that with DS. As no matter what, you have to play around it to keep it from activating, and it's far more difficult to work out what perks each survivor has until they actually use it. (Not to mention just a bit harder to keep track of 16 perks than it is 4.)
4. As far as deliverance goes, the only way any killer is stopping that is through blind luck in hooking the survivor with it first, even though they have literally no way to tell who that is. Red Herring? Unable to be stopped. Sure, it may not work (if you mis-time it and hit it while the killer sees another survivor, or get one that's given up on gen defense entirely), but then, noed may pop and the killer unable to find a single survivor until the single totem it's on is snuffed. (Happened twice just last night in survivor matches I played, once against a trapper, the other against Freddy) Flashbang? Literally as good as your aim (assuming no lightborn, just as we've assumed you're trying to cleanse all dull totems without the perk specifically designed to help that endeavor) and there's no way Any killer can stop you from making grenades, outside of playing such great 7 point defense that you never get to touch a gen. I will grant that both hex perks you mentioned can in fact be found and removed before serious gain is given, but then since you have stated dispelling dulls is "hefty impact" I don't see how you claim dispelling lit totems (which literally takes longer per totem) isn't any impact at all. Like with time searching for gens, it seems the clock only moves when you say it does.
5. The us vs them nonsense you keep putting in? Not really addressing that. For some reason it seems you are really stuck on DS, which I have not seen a serious argument against as a perk since it was last reworked. (Are you sure you don't mean DH?) The "forum is just killer sided" arguments don't do you any favors either, as that's the same line of BS our most... Infamous forum members consistently play on to bait. Anyone trying to use a professional streamer playing against randoms to prove anything is just wrong. All it shows is that otz is playing Dbd. (We don't even know for sure they are all legit matches, he's an entertainer, not a pro gamer, and there's literally no oversight of any of his matches)
Still trying to pretend any current match has 5 dull totems?
It still takes 14 seconds for every one of those 5 totems. Boons definitely make things much better on NOED, since they repay some of the investment in the counter so you don't run the risk of cleansing 5 for zero gain, but they're perks of their own accord and that needs to be taken into account as well.
As far as time searching, you're going to count that for totems but not gens? Really? Both have a limited number of physical places they can spawn, and are usually pretty close to each other.
I do hope you're not going to try and argue that it's just as hard to find gens as it is to find totems. And you bring up the limited number of physical places: Gens have two extra.
Killers have 4 perks, all of which can be seen by the survivors
No. Unless the killer has hard identifiers on all four of their perks and you, personally, happen to observe ALL of those identifiers, you don't know whether or not they have NOED.
and saw the killer head straight for a teammate after getting a hook (bbq)
Even that is nothing more than an educated guess because the killer could just be using their gamesense to make their own educated guesses. BBQ & Chili can only be recognised by Distortion and Object of Obsession, nothing else hard confirms BBQ & Chili.
There's plenty of perks that aren't identifiable, and even if they are, you still need to see that yourself or be in a swiffer and have a teammate confirm that perk to you. The killer might've blocked five windows with Bamboozle over the course of the match, but if you never witnessed them do it, you still have no way to know he doesn't have NOED.
Thats why it can be completely removed. If you think the killer has it, you have the option (in addition to dispelling as you would any hex) to remove it before the game starts.
But doing so requires a time investment that is equivalent to other slowdown perks, and it's a massive gamble because if the killer does -not- have NOED, you just wasted a ton of time. And the slightest imperfection will see your effort go unrewarded, too.
As no matter what, you have to play around it to keep it from activating
Yes, but this counterplay consists of -not pressing a button-, as opposed to spending 70 seconds minimum to root it out.
As far as deliverance goes, the only way any killer is stopping that is through blind luck in hooking the survivor with it first, even though they have literally no way to tell who that is.
But that does allow the perk to literally never fire, contrary to what you said about NOED being the only perk to do that.
Red Herring? Unable to be stopped. Sure, it may not work, but then, noed may pop and the killer unable to find a single survivor until the single totem it's on is snuffed.
Even then, NOED gives a speed boost, so it always gives at least -some- value. And when there's only three gens left, the chances of not finding a survivor are pretty slim, since there's very few objective locations left for the survivors. It's one of three gens, then one of two gates.
It is technically possible for the totem to go down the moment it goes live (Had that happen once), but that goes back down to being RNG based, much like Deliverance.
Flashbang? Literally as good as your aim
And the killer's ability to look away for a second.
For some reason it seems you are really stuck on DS, which I have not seen a serious argument against as a perk since it was last reworked.
The post you responded to was in response to someone making a legitimate complaint about DS. And it's not the only one. It is still being named in the same breath as DH, with the same connotation of a 'second chance perk'. The principle of that is the crux of my argument: Killer autonomy is disregarded.
Anyone trying to use a professional streamer playing against randoms to prove anything is just wrong.
That can certainly be argued. However, the ongoing insistence that the game is some degree of survivor-sided falls on even shakier support, but has long gone uncontested. Otz is actually one of the few people to argue against it, the video that caused this thread is just the fuse to the powderkeg.
The fact that the notion that the game is survivor-sided has survived for as long as it did without any discernible, concrete evidence to support it, strongly suggests a bias in the community.
That is all.
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@fulltonon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2797931#Comment_2797931
Yes? especially when they are noticeably bad survivors.
Oh, so we're back on the 'survivors just bad lol' train.
Killers are never bad, they're just UP tho.
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@fulltonon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2797919#Comment_2797919
It does matter because he loses against good survivors.
So because he lost one match, the other 74 matches are discredited?
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@fulltonon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2797912#Comment_2797912
It's not about otz though, it's about survivors.
What does that matter? High skill is high skill.
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@fulltonon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2797890#Comment_2797890
Why can't refer to high skill players?
Because when Otz shows he can consistently win without perks, and spending the first 30 seconds AFK, -that- gets disregarded under the argument of 'He breathes DBD, he's too high skill to be used as an example'.
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@fulltonon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2797866#Comment_2797866
Because data is literally worthless when killers can secure one or two kills no matter what and majority of players are "bad".
Also well and good, but then how do you support the claim the game is survivor-sided? Data can't be used, and you can't refer to high skill players, so then what?
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@GeneralV said:
Otz is a good guy, but it is plain wrong to take his or someone else's opinion and call them the truth. People who play this game over and over again for a living have a very different view of things that may not represent the reality most of us see in our matches.
That's all well and good, but when taking the averages, the game still doesn't show itself as survivor-sided. Kill rates are all still above 50%. Definitely lower than what they used to be, like the 68% kill rate in red ranks before SBMM, but there's nothing to show the game is survivor sided.
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@AsherFrost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2797232#Comment_2797232
"But again, that is somehow always the survivors' fault, but killers aren't responsible when they faceplant their way into a DS proc."
Pretty much there. Drawing a comparison in your reply to me that had nothing to do with anything I have said.
Yes there is always some benefit, ideally all perks should offer at least a little benefit in the match, that's why you bring perks. That doesn't make it op.
"At worst, it's a single exposed down (Haunted Grounds, anyone?), at best, it can turn a dead loss into a 4K."
1. Not quite haunted grounds. More like getting to borrow Billy's saw for a single hit. The biggest benefit of haunted grounds is the fear it creates.
2. Literally any killer has the capacity to snowball against an uncoordinated or unskilled team. That's not unique to noed at all.
"If the fifth gen pops and NOED doesn't fire? You got about as much value as you could've gotten had all four survivors run No Mither into your Thanatophobia."
I would love to see the math backing that assertion up.
"It's much, much, MUCH easier to find one hex totem than to find all five dulls, especially in regards to the solo/swiffer dichotomy. You can easily clear a single hex by yourself. Doing five dulls by yourself is going to seriously set your team back, if you even succeed."
Indeed it is. However removing all 5 does something that you can do to no other perk, completely stop it from activating. Otherwise it's still a single totem to dispell, just like devour. Shouldn't it be much easier to dispell a perk than it is to keep it from activating at all? And let's be honest, with the boon meta, is there ever a match that has 5 dulls? Because in every game I've played as survivor since the release of the witch, it's been 2-3 booned totems per game, meaning that instead of the "much much harder task" of removing 5 totems to stop a perk from activating, you really only need to do 2-3 at most.
Pretty much there. Drawing a comparison in your reply to me that had nothing to do with anything I have said.
That is the argument you stepped in on. I brought up DS vs NOED to illustrate the point of how the forums confer all autonomy to only the survivors.
Yes there is always some benefit, ideally all perks should offer at least a little benefit in the match, that's why you bring perks. That doesn't make it op.
That's a motte and bailey. You stated that NOED can be stopped before it activates, I point out how that doesn't keep it from having a hefty impact on the game.
This in contrast to DS, which has virtually no impact if you counterplay it.
1. Not quite haunted grounds. More like getting to borrow Billy's saw for a single hit. The biggest benefit of haunted grounds is the fear it creates.
How is that 'fear' a relevant benefit that NOED doesn't also offer? You're not scaring any survivors that you're not near when Haunted Grounds pops, but you are scaring survivors all over the map when you slug someone with NOED.
2. Literally any killer has the capacity to snowball against an uncoordinated or unskilled team. That's not unique to noed at all.
Yes, congrats. But NOED still reduces the requirement for such a play by more than half.
I would love to see the math backing that assertion up.
Sure.
Thanatophobia slows down repair speeds by, at max, 20%. Gens take 80 seconds to complete. 5 x 80 = 400. 20% of 400 is 80. Thanatophobia will buy you 80 seconds here.
Totems take 14 seconds to destroy. 5 x 14 = 70. NOED bought you 70 seconds here.
The difference is only 10 seconds, except Thanatophobia requires all survivors to be injured, all the time, while NOED doesn't even need to be equipped to potentially get this benefit. This is also not counting the time it takes for the survivors to actually find the totems. Any search time will likely push NOED over 70 seconds, and in a solo team, it could easily take even longer as survivors cannot coordinate with each other, making searches take longer and possibly costing search time after all five totems are already done anyway.
However removing all 5 does something that you can do to no other perk, completely stop it from activating.
No, it turns NOED from the strongest hex perk in the game into a very competitive slowdown perk. And that's assuming the killer actually does have NOED, because remember: You need to commit to that quintuple cleanse -before- NOED is declared, meaning NOED can fulfil this slowdown role -without being equipped at all-.
And on top of that, it is absolutely not unique in being the only perk that you can completely stop from activating. DS can easily never activate. Deliverance can easily never activate. Red Herring can easily offer no value. Flashbang can easily offer no value. Devour Hope can go down before it gets tokens. Ruin can go down before it regresses a single gen. Huntress' Lullaby can go down without gaining tokens, or it can simply fail to throw a survivor off.
NOED is basically the only perk you CAN'T stop from having an impact.
Which feeds into the main argument I was making: The forums have an attitude where, if the killer wins, the survivors just sucked, but if the survivors win, it's not because the killer sucked, it's because survivors are OP.
DS vs. NOED shows this. It's one of the most counterplayable perks being heralded as a part of why survivors are OP, versus the least counterplayable perk that survivors are often held fully responsible for if it fires.
Killer autonomy is entirely disregarded and their skill is not considered. The game is survivor sided because 'Look at tournament play!', but Otz consistently winning matches on a perkless build with a 30 second AFK timer at the start is met with 'you can't set that standard for killer players, that's way too high skill'.
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@CyberDragoon656 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2797048#Comment_2797048
Because they get caught and right now with how survivors tend to be at times they don't do a good job at either hiding or since constantly running is something all survivors do they make it too obvious for the killer location wise.
You are right on one thing ds was ment to be a tunneling perk. So, then why then do survivors who have it tend to use it in ways that encourage it insinstead. That's the reason I say it rewards bad play because thanks to how long the timer is other than slugging and waiting for 30 seconds or so the killer has no real way to punish the bad play.
Their position is declared to the killer the moment they come off the hook! What are they supposed to do against that?
'They got caught', yeah, big ######### whoop when the killer knows their exact location. Who wouldn't be able to catch that?
'Don't run then!' But then how do I make distance from the killer? They still know where the survivor is if you don't leave tracks, because they know the survivor can't be far. All they need to do is sweep the area and just kill the survivor when they inevitably find them.
You are right on one thing ds was ment to be a tunneling perk. So, then why then do survivors who have it tend to use it in ways that encourage it insinstead.
Because outside of an aggressive use, the perk is dead weight in almost all cases. Is that your balancing metric? Should survivor perks just be blank slots?
That's the reason I say it rewards bad play because thanks to how long the timer is other than slugging and waiting for 30 seconds or so the killer has no real way to punish the bad play.
You're getting a free down. Quit whining. They wanna waste half a minute lying on the floor, helpless, that's to YOUR benefit. You have no right to just slam your face into that perk and demand that it bends for you. Survivor perks are supposed to help survivors, not killers. You argument here legitimately comes down to "I should be able to fully ignore this perk".
@AsherFrost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2786718#Comment_2786718
At least you've provided an answer. So instead of going by advantage gained, you want to go by the threat of the hex. Also you think 2 totems is fair for stopping a perk from ever having any benefit.
Yes, the killer has a better move speed and insta-down. You by that point should have map knowledge and an understanding of how well that specific killer loops. It's difficult, not impossible, as it should be for a hex perk. It may take a bit of time, but frankly until the gates are opened time is on the survivors' side, and again, you have the option to remove it from activating, or just stop it when it does, so you can decide on a case by case basis. Michael with noed? Fun, but not scary. Blight? Definitely going to make sure there's no dull by the time my team does the last gen.
Devour Hope at full strength is about as powerful, I would say, however the fact that it isn't just locked to after 5 gens are powered, and can be up for a large part of the match itself makes it far more powerful. Yet somehow even with 5 stacks survivors are still able to find the single lit totem to kill it, even through they would have less map knowledge by that time.
Noed isn't "for free". The cost is playing a perk short for most of the match, for a perk that may be prevented from even activating. It's one of the biggest gambles a killer can take with their loadout. (though, to be fair all hex perks are a roll of the dice)
This whole "fault" thing? It's trash. Looking at any perk proccing as someone's "fault" or as a "punishment" or any of that other bullshit is what leads players on all sides to complain about valid game mechanics (like say, being baited into taking a DS hit). So in your example I would say neither is the "fault" of the other. Both are simply players using their perks to try and win the match.
I'm not sure where you are getting the idea that I am out here bashing people for using DS, but I'll make you a deal. If you can find a single post where I personally have derided a survivor for using DS or any other perk, I'll edit every noed post I've ever made to say "Firellius was right" if not, then I'd kindly ask you take the friend you keep bringing into this discussion back to Oz, where he can help Dorothy and get himself a brain.
It may take a bit of time, but frankly until the gates are opened time is on the survivors' side
That depends on the killer's performance. Put out enough pressure and time absolutely isn't on survivors' side.
Blight? Definitely going to make sure there's no dull by the time my team does the last gen.
Case in point. A good blight is definitely going to punish you for wasting time on five dulls on the off chance that he's carrying NOED. Remember: You're not guaranteed any return on investment for clearing 5, and if you miss one, you get even less.
Devour Hope at full strength is about as powerful, I would say, however the fact that it isn't just locked to after 5 gens are powered, and can be up for a large part of the match itself makes it far more powerful. Yet somehow even with 5 stacks survivors are still able to find the single lit totem to kill it, even through they would have less map knowledge by that time.
Devour Hope is not up for most of the game either, though, and it can be demolished with just one totem, before it becomes a problem, and there's a near guaranteed return on investment for doing so. It's much, much, MUCH easier to find one hex totem than to find all five dulls, especially in regards to the solo/swiffer dichotomy. You can easily clear a single hex by yourself. Doing five dulls by yourself is going to seriously set your team back, if you even succeed.
The cost is playing a perk short for most of the match, for a perk that may be prevented from even activating.
This is something that people need to realise too: The only way you don't get any value out of NOED is
A) It gets cleansed the moment it comes online
OR
B) The fifth gen is never completed.
If the fifth gen pops and NOED doesn't fire? You got about as much value as you could've gotten had all four survivors run No Mither into your Thanatophobia.
It is almost impossible to not get value out of NOED. The value will differ, sure, but you're going to get something out of it. If it doesn't fire, it slowed the survivors down about as much as a sixth gen would've. If it does fire, you get the movespeed boost. And if you get a hit on a healthy target before they cleanse it, you got the instadown.
At worst, it's a single exposed down (Haunted Grounds, anyone?), at best, it can turn a dead loss into a 4K.
NOED is a strong perk with unfair counterplay.
I'm not sure where you are getting the idea that I am out here bashing people for using DS
When did I say you did?
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I'm pretty sure it used to decay while you're on the ground. Not sure about what'd happen while you're on the shoulders, I think that never regressed, but while down on the ground, I think it regressed.
Which didn't make sense, and I don't think this is going to hurt killers all that much, if at all.
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@AsherFrost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2785956#Comment_2785956
Not for DS, but for DH? absolutely. Though I notice you didn't actually answer my question.
And again that's to prevent the perk entirely. When it does activate, a single totem is all you have to deal with to remove it, just like any other hex. With the current boon meta, you don't even have to check all 5, as (if my own experience as a survivor main is anything to go by) there will end up being at least 3 boons in play, giving you a 50% chance to find the right one out of the 2 totems left. Hardly a major hassle.
And that's my point. Noed has the exact weakness of every other hex perk, yet people act like they are forced to remove all 5 totems every game. Well, it's up to you, as it should be. You can break 5 totems (or rather break the 1-2 that aren't booned) and make sure a dangerous advantage is never given to the killer, or roll the dice and deal with it when/if it appears.
Not for DS, but for DH? absolutely. Though I notice you didn't actually answer my question.
Sure, go for it. DH gets blocked if the killer spends 3.5 seconds interacting with 5 different objects scattered around the map at random. I doubt it'll make things better, but knock yourself out.
As for your question: The amount of totems would depend on the effect. Something strong like Ruin should go in one totem. Devour Hope could maybe get away with having two, due to its ramp-up mechanism. But NOED is way too strong to require 5 totems.
When it does activate, a single totem is all you have to deal with to remove it, just like any other hex.
But at this point, the killer instadowns, and has 4% extra movespeed. You still have to do an objective, the killer's attention isn't split across the map anymore, and you might have some people on death hook, or you might already be missing someone.
Unless that totem spawns right under your nose while the killer is too far away to save the hex, NOED is going to do damage.
there will end up being at least 3 boons in play, giving you a 50% chance to find the right one out of the 2 totems left. Hardly a major hassle.
Those three boons will likely be the most central totems, which means NOED is now off in some out-of-the-way corner somewhere. And if the two totems are on opposite sides of the map, you're still going to waste a ton of time if the first totem isn't the correct one.
And that's my point. Noed has the exact weakness of every other hex perk
But it is way more powerful than any of the other hexes. It offers almost the same benefit as Devour Hope, except that one requires a considerable build-up to get going, while NOED pops for free.
And none of that is taking into consideration how NOED interacts with camping.
But again, that is somehow always the survivors' fault, but killers aren't responsible when they faceplant their way into a DS proc.
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@AsherFrost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2784444#Comment_2784444
Cool, so when can killers expect to gain the ability to stop ds from being activated in the match by the simple act of interacting with 5 items on a map?
Oh wait, that's not happening, no survivor perks work like that, and noed is just a terrible perk to try and use for an analogy.
I keep asking, but none of y'all will answer, what do you believe the correct amount of totems to remove would be to stop 1 of 4 killer perks from ever being able to activate in the match? To me, that's a pretty significant advantage you gain, as there are no other perks that can be removed before they provide any benefit.
Do you really think you'd want that? Do you really think it'd be an okay trade-off to spend a full minute scouring the map for five interactable objects just so you can disable DS, with the added benefit of not actually knowing whether the survivor has DS beforehand, either.
You'd never take that option. You'd never waste that much time on the off-chance that the survivor has a perk that you could also disable by simply going for a different target.
That's the point of the analogy: NOED requiring either a ton of extra work or a ton of luck to 'counter' is fine, but DS is a problem because apparently killers are too dumb to switch targets.
@CyberDragoon656 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2784444#Comment_2784444
So let's me see what I can understand from this.
So for one if a person gets off one hook then turns to helps swarm another hook they should keep their ds for doing a bad play? If a person gets off a hook and just runs ,not even doing a run then walk set up to try and hide their scratch marks but just runs into into locker where it's obvious they hid there they should keep ds.
NOED: well guess what if boons can be constantly lit and relit over the span of a game it shows survivors have enough time to cleanse totems also lately the placements suck anyways.
Right now the meta for survivors is rewarding bad play ds and bt for getting caught and downed, DH flat out is a safety net perk ,UB now thanks to boil over can easily make multistory maps unbearable, same with adrenaline but that one isn't seen as much
And if you are saying killers act like they want their hand held then atm survivors are getting their hand held thanks to how forgiving the perks are.
So for one if a person gets off one hook then turns to helps swarm another hook they should keep their ds for doing a bad play?
They can't. If they touch that hooked survivor, DS goes down. They can bodyblock, sure, but then you can just slap them down and leave them on the ground.
If a person gets off a hook and just runs ,not even doing a run then walk set up to try and hide their scratch marks but just runs into into locker where it's obvious they hid there they should keep ds.
Which is it? Are they running into a locker and making it obvious where they are, or are they hiding their tracks? Either way, how much effort does it take for you to NOT walk up to that locker and NOT press the interact button?
NOED: well guess what if boons can be constantly lit and relit over the span of a game it shows survivors have enough time to cleanse totems also lately the placements suck anyways.
And here's another example of how dumb the killer bias can get: Yes, survivors have time to deal with totems IF DOING SO COMPENSATES THEM FOR THE TIME SPENT ON IT.
There's an enormous gulf of difference between blessing a totem so you lose scratch marks or get massively increased healing versus breaking a totem for no benefit whatsoever. Because remember: Over 80% of snuffed dull totems contributed NOTHING to stopping NOED.
Right now the meta for survivors is rewarding bad play ds
This is the exact point.
Survivors aren't being rewarded for bad plays by DS. It won't do them any good against a killer that keeps that perk in mind. It's not survivors getting rewarded for bad plays, it's you being punished for making a misplay.
Which loops back to the point I was making: The forums are stuck in a mindset of 'survivors win = survivors OP, killers win = survivors were just bad', with absolutely zero nuance. The constant mention of DS as a contributor to 'survivors OP' perfectly shows that sometimes killers just lose because they played poorly.
Bitter pill to swallow for these forums, it seems.
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@CyberDragoon656 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2780708#Comment_2780708
Cause it is all controlled by how the survivors are in the game but, along with that most meta perks are also way too forgiving so when you have people ######### up and be constantly saved due to DH , hook swarmed a survivor and got downed but ds is still activated or ds activated even though they run into a locker unsafe then it's hard not to think so.
Also for the usual end game build it is reliant on hexes that can be destroyed or hooks that can be avoided.
DS is the perfect example: it is one of the most counterable perks in the entire game. If you get hit by it, you played into it.
And yet, it's not the killer that's at fault here, apparently!
NOED? 'lol, just cleanse all five totems'
DS? 'I can't go after a target that wasn't just pulled off the hook!'
Again: survivors need to 'git gud', but killers just need their hand held, apparently.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2783497#Comment_2783497
Like I’ve already addressed, donating to a charity with zero direct legal power or say over legislation is not even remotely comparable to donating AND voting for politicians who DO have that legal power AND actively use it to push for anti-LGBT legislation. Trevor Project can’t put forth an anti-discrimination law. Anti-LGBT politicians can and do push for legislation that will strip human rights.
Except the Trevor Project also operates on advocacy and public education, meaning that that money will be put towards swaying voters away from anti-LGBT legislature. The Trevor Project is pushing against anti-LGBT legislature, and Scott supported that.
Unless money directly buys legislative power in the US, the money that the Trevor Project got has just as much voter-swaying power as what any politician gets. Except while the politicians will have other issues to campaign on as well, the Trevor Project would be purely focused on pro-LGBT campaigning, so its funds would be more focused on that particular issue.
And if money DOES directly buy legislative power in the US, you have way, WAY bigger fish to fry.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2782163#Comment_2782163
Yes, "outrage culture landmines" like "Man, I wish the creator did not vote for and donate thousands of dollars to politicians that explicitly promised to fight to tear away LGBT+ human rights."
Didn't someone else mention that he also donated $50.000 to the Trevor Project?
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Keys need a revamp overall, IMO.
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@GiveMeBoops said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2782721#Comment_2782721
DS, BT baseline would be nice for survivors, because it would allow so many builds.
Problem is that killer experience would turn to #########.
Some killers that rely on slugging would be super bad, mainly Twins and Oni. Because anti-slugging would be main replacement for those two perks.
Also gen rushing perks, yay... There will always be a meta build, you can't change that by baseline perks. It will only be meta build with 6 perks instead of 4.
I don't think there's much of a threat to anti-slugging because the anti-slugging options survivors have range from bad to worse. Unbreakable is good, but can only be used once. Soul Guard requires the survivors to not destroy a Hex, which is probably not going to be worth it. Then there's Exponential, which requires time to set up and can simply be snuffed out, and it only gives value if you get slugged in or near its radius. And the last option is... Well... It's No Mither.
Gen-rush perks are actually also pretty rare. I think it's just Prove Thyself and Resilience. And I think they'd be off-set if the killer side of things got some innate slow-down baked into their kits, too.
There's always going to be a meta build, but at least we can have perks that facilitate play, as opposed to perks that just band-aid the worst things the game has to offer.
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@fulltonon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2782626#Comment_2782626
Simply because that's how chase works, you'll know mindgaming is more or less gamble and doesn't work against people who actually good, and looping is pretty much palette tour with no real way to improve.
And since any average SWF can casually crap average (or, little stronger than average) killers thanks to "legitimate" cheat tool called "voice comm", you can only win against people who is bad (unless you use actually decent killers or the bubba).
As evidenced by what?
Everyone repeats this mantra and no one proves it. Several killer streamers have shown the opposite. Kill rates are over 50%, and have been for over a year.
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@GiveMeBoops said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2782629#Comment_2782629
DS / BT just can't be baseline. It doesn't work when killer knows for 100% that it's active.
Do you really think that killer will ever pick you up with DS baseline? No, you will get slugged each time for a minute.
I will just count it, or use something as a timer (I usually use videos on second monitor).
That's fine though. Opens up other build options. Flip Flop would be good for such a scenario for example.
And even if they want to leave you slugged for a minute, that's a minute that the killer can't afford to wander off without risking giving up the take-down. That's a whole extra 60 seconds, making tunnelling far less effective, baseline, as opposed to DS firing to slow the killer down by maybe 30 at best, if the survivor does a good job?
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I don't understand the complaint here. DS is a terrible perk unless the killer tunnels, BT is extremely situational. Killer got a 2K, so the match was pretty fair both ways.
What, are they supposed to just nerf survivors until 4Ks become the norm?
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Honestly, DS is at a point where it should just be made baseline, along with either a minor version of PGTW or Corrupt Intervention. The game could really do with baseline integration of a few 'must pick' options.
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@Zozzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2780708#Comment_2780708
Keep living in your bubble. 🙄
Technically my Trickster is "OP" because i win more than i lose with him. Then you look at what the survivors are doing and they just sit there on the gen and let me get close, Then they just hold W and let me land all my knives for a quick down. They don't understand how to use tall structures to waste copious amounts of my time or to run early when the lullaby starts playing .
Eventually i get a team with a combined 20k hours (i am not even kidding or spitting hyperbole) and at best i can land 2 or 3 knives between all the trees and junk they keep between us as i chase, while always running away super early. They never run in a straight line and do a quick side step as they run that doesn't seem to slow them down at all but makes the majority of my knives miss.
Body blocking is also common amongst good survivors. as seen here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcRZ7BMFGn4
Killers win when the survivors are severely below their level.
Unless you are convinced that you are playing 100% optimally with no way to improve in any way, shape or form, none of that shows anything against what I said.
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Well, they did go from an overall kill rate of 68% to something more like 52%.