Emeal
Emeal
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@imabakedpot8o said:
Rituals is better, I'm not going to lie. Quests makes it feel like I'm playing D&D, and I am NOT a fan of D&D. It makes it sound medieval AF. I thought this was a horror game, and they got me doing Quests. Corny mfs 😂
Please Nancy, You must defeat the Three Goblins in the Huntress's House, the Safety of the Village depends upon it!
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@SkeletalElite said:
I think they changed it to quests because they want to avoid ambiguity since it's replacing the daily ritual system. They dont want anyone confused that they're a different thing
Could be, its just terrible they are wasting a great thematic opportunity on something people will get confused about anyway.
Like that's the same thing when they changed Ranks to Grade, people still call it Ranks and still think Rank works with MMR.I don't think the solution for these problems need to be in the name. 'Oh we changed the name so you understand it now right?'
Most of my friends who play this, Don't even know what the difference is on most stuff in this game? I doubt they have ever opened the ritual tab, like this is a Videogame the name isn't important really, its the fact that the systems work for players.
And I really doubt the name will have any educational impact on the matter. Because if the system works great and they interact with it Dayli then they will learn through repetition, The Grade system? We dont even see that system, most dont. We only see blood points roll in every 13th. I doubt my friends will know what it is If I asked them.
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Because everyone is playing the new Killer, the queue is full.
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Seems that Map Variants have been re-enabled in Custom rn, Does anyone know if they are back in the Match Game Pool?
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I have always wanted there to be Thick Generators, which take longer to complete, or Old Generators which are more prone to skill checks and making more noise. I think is a really fun idea to add some changes there.
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@VolantConch1719 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3904564#Comment_3904564
I didn't expect I'd change your mind, and I'm not exactly the best at expressing myself (you have no idea how many times I rewrote things trying to get across what I wanted to say before basically giving up and sending it), so I'll leave it at that. Just one more point here:
"Its because you repeat yourself, dont float any diagnose about here. please don't say others are things like that here.
Name-calling is the worst."My dude, I wasn't diagnosing anyone. I'M autistic, hence "Maybe it's just the autism speaking here". If I'm calling anyone names, it's MYSELF.
Don't feel bad about not changing my mind, I don't write to do the same, to me its more about a process, a process of giving an idea a fair chance to be criticized. See it as an exercise in expressing yourself, you will get better at it. It also helps knowing a lot about logical structure, arguments and those logical fallacies.
Sorry, I didn't realize exactly what you meant by your point 4, that fact that called your that and then took a jab at me in point 5 was kind of suspect and confusing. I would have written, "my autism" honestly referring to it as the and not who has it, don't leave it up to me, so I shall refused the whole subject no matter what.
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You know the same reasons it got removed from Wraith, should be the same it gets removed from Nemesis.
It makes perfect sense.
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@VolantConch1719 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3904258#Comment_3904258
Hmm, it's clear I won't be able to change your mind and you won't change mine (it's kind of why I DIDN'T tag you, since I knew it would get us nowhere, though you also failed in your own logic by not pinging Mandy earlier), but I'll humor your points for a bit.
- In a game where maps are so rarely truly balanced without leaning to one side or the other, I find this hard to believe, ESPECIALLY when four of those were Badham. The fact that the feedback they got, as Mandy said, was "inherently negative, with the majority of players disliking them," as well as they weren't as good as the originals tells me that most people DIDN'T think they were fine to play, for one reason or another.
- That's… how map selection ALREADY works (At least, how I thought it worked given their previous statements, but now I'm not sure given that Reddit statement. But I already typed this whole thing out so I'll keep it, fully expecting you to dismantle it and throw it aside like you seem to do with everyone else's points). It's the whole reason why map offerings bring you to a realm (with the irritating exception of the Dvarka maps). However, for the map repeat prevention, they counted as different maps, so it was entirely possible to get THE SAME MAP, with a slightly tweaked layout, several times in a row (it happened to me with Ormond. Multiple times, and not once during those streaks did I get the Mine). And if they're going to go with realm repeat prevention, that would just make it HARDER to get a map you want if it's in a realm with a variation (I again point to the Mine. I would love the get that map since it looks really cool instead of multiple Resorts back to back). I will say though, your statement to Cryptic does have some validity to it, but I'm not sure DbD's spaghetti code would be able to manage it considering the game was never built with variations in mind.
- Unless you're able to pull a new player out of a hat, I'm not sure what kind of tangible proof you're looking for here. However, I can apply basic theory and common sense. Every 1.5-3 months (depending on whether or not they want to throw a Survivor only mid-chapter in for some reason), up to 6 new perks, and entire new character, and potentially a new map get added to the game. And when you add map variations, that only compounds how daunting it all gets. The loops are procedurally generated, and could perhaps be more procedural, but you're still able to learn the main layout of the map over time, which is good game design. But suddenly, you get a map that has the same name as another map and all of the same structures, but has an entirely different layout. Not only do you have to learn this entirely new layout, you have to figure out how to differentiate between them when you do get them (especially since I don't remember seeing any of the Ormond maps being numbered like Badham was, but that could be me being annoyed at not getting the Mine… again). That is the exact opposite of good game design. And since BHVR seems to actually be trying to improve the new player experience for once, not having 13 tweaked versions of other maps to memorize will only benefit newcomers. The rest of these issues I don't think can be addressed (kind of a natural part of being a live service game), but it's something.
- Maybe it's just the autism speaking here, but I'm not sure why this needed to be a separate point. So… refer to point 3.
- Perhaps I worded this wrong, but the fact that you are one of only THREE people I've seen complain tells me all I need to know. I suppose I will concede this one though, since I sure as hell didn't ask for D&D and still wound up with my favorite Killer and Survivor out of it.
- After my initial statement you quoted, you're just putting words into my mouth. I never claimed that BHVR WILL better balance the maps (although, as we'll get to with point 7, I do believe it will be better than the nothing it currently is). What gives you the idea that BHVR is under no impression that the maps were awful? You keep asking for proof for everyone's claims, but unless you work on BHVR's map team, I don't think you'll be able to provide proof of your own. Absence of evidence (in this case, not directly saying the maps were bad) is not evidence of absence.
- Having more map variants would actually make things harder for BHVR. Instead of, say Badham, having 5 versions to constantly check and update, they have ONE, singular version to monitor. That puts CONSIDERABLY less work on the map balance teams and does allow them to more quickly change maps that are problematic rather than trying to figure out if changing something on one structure to fix one variation winds up screwing up all of the other variations (since they're the same tiles, any change to one would affect the others). Whether they will or not remains to be seen, but again, BHVR does seem to be trying to listen to the community for once.
Personally, I think the way they're doing things with Forsaken Boneyard, having Dead Sands be a "variation" of Eyrie while still having its own unique identity, to be the correct way to go about variations (whether Dead Sands is actually any good balance wise right now has yet to be decided).
I understand your perspective, and normally I'd agree that removing content is the wrong way to go. This is just not one of those times. But again, I don't expect to change your opinion and I don't think you'll be able to change mine, or really anyone else's, since you're basically off in your own corner on this.
The Community Manager does not respond to everything she can, this is not how developer feedback on us works, she read it anyway cause its her job to read it, even if I screw up pinging her. Mandy clarified the position of BHVR and I still think its worth the critique. Which is ironic because you say I cant change your mind, yet in the end of your reply you say we basically agree on the same thing. Removing content is bad. There is no question about this.
- Take a look at the unofficial map stats trackers then, none of them are more grossly unbalanced than the current map pool.
We also lack severe confirmation from BHVR that the maps are considered unbalanced by them, its not a point BHVR has brought up so its up to others to demonstrate it. - (You dont need to make a point to make a point if you find conflicting evidence, just acknowledge the point.)
Yes. the point about not treating Map Variation as Map Types of a Realm. It has gotten a good response on reddit too.
Idd like to see BHVR respond to that. - "Unless you're able to pull a new player out of a hat", I can infact, I just recently added 4 new players to the game via the 2v8 from before the RE 2v8. We have been playing since then. And it really stunned me, 4 adult men, cant even remember basics when it comes to where anything is in this game. Small sample sure, but they play well enough that I dont believe the claim that, New players need to learn where everything is and that Map Variants somehow makes them so confused that they cant play anyway. I don't think it is so confusing as people have made it out to me here.
- Its because you repeat yourself, dont float any diagnose about here. please don't say others are things like that here.
Name-calling is the worst. - "the fact that you are one of only THREE people I've seen complain tells me all I need to know." what is this supposed to mean? There is nothing wrong with me, this just seems to be a jab at me rather than making a good faith discussion here.
Yes, good you concede it its a very bad argument. Why even make it a point then? Great you enjoy Lich, I do too. - I am not putting words in your mouth, I didnt say you claimed heaven here. I said others had, because its all based on that BHVR COULD fix all the maps according to you, but It falls over when I ask, well how do you know that will happen?
6.2 "What gives you the idea that BHVR is under no impression that the maps were awful?" When you say Awful do you mean unbalanced to the point they need to be removed or just "disliked" to the point of being removed, Cause I think there is a very meaningful difference. Additionally, Yes I ask for the reason what people say. I even asked BHVR they have not agreed. I agree "Absence of evidence (in this case, not directly saying the maps were bad) is not evidence of absence" but that isnt evidence for anyone and I was not the one who claimed the maps were unbalanced. That was someone else. - Considering how they have not made many significant changes to the maps over the years, It clearly isnt very hard to maintain. Ofc that assumes that BHVR does their job, which I am fine with assuming. But since you don't you still have a burden of proof. Furthermore I am responding to points most of the time
If someone claims a map is unbalanced, they should provide evidence.
If you claim the map is balanced, you should provide evidence to counter their argument.
If you just say "I don’t think so," you're expressing doubt, not necessarily making a claim.
(You're questioning their assertion rather than asserting the opposite.)
And honestly, people love expressing unbalance without providing evidence on these forums.
Even if I assume BHVR is doing their job, its still up to anyone else to prove that its unbalanced. Not me.
Thanks for the Tango, tho you dont need to respond to humor me, I am on these forums clearly as both a excise in logic and love of the game. And I know the developers do enjoy seeing discussion here with a bit more logic structure. (They told me.)
Ill also slam BHVR when I think they do something wrong, because that is what feedback is all about and BHVR still responds very well to logical and reasoned arguments in regards to their plans, maybe they find I make really good points and revert it.
Mostly Im just hoping for deeper explanations of what's the reasons for its removal, because I certainly think I challenged the given reasons well so far. It could also be that they double down and say, "no really buddy, map variations were really bad for us"
which is fine, Im not demanding perfect logic from BHVR here either. -
@Daniel_Silva04 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3904343#Comment_3904343
It's quite simple, there are some variations that are balanced, and others that are not. So besides having to balance the original map, they still had to worry about balancing all the variations.This only made it more difficult and took more time. And this made it difficult for new players because they had to learn about 500 different variants of the same map.
Fair enough, I mean more maps does mean more work. But this could easily then just be an argument against more maps.
I would like to be convinced that new players actually need to learn new maps to play well.
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I completely understand why people think Ghoulboy is OP, because the way this Killer is designed is strongest against Survivors favorite strategies that being. 1. Hold W and 2. Not Hide.
I think the first hit is supposed to work like Legion, but unlike Legion, Ghoulface has 0 map detection, so hes like 1000% weak to hiding. I don't have a SWF team atm, but I would think my playstyle against Ghoulman would be:
- Hide and move through maps unseen.
- Leave a generator early. Preferly when the Ghoul hooks or heads your way.
- Don't drop a pallet until I have been injured and Ghoulface isn't in power.
- Keep separated.
I think the reason Ghoul is OP right now is that the meta is Aura reading, and BHVR does not seem to want to give that Aura warning from 2v8 to normal mode.
Best advice right now??? Use distortion.
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@Daniel_Silva04 said:
I think it was good that they removed it. Map variations only made it harder for new players to learn the maps and also made it harder to balance them.
Do you feel like you need to learn new maps? and honestly from my personal experience even casual dbd players cant find their way around even non-variant maps. So I honestly dont believe that removing the map variants will help.
Also how do you figure having Map Variants makes it harder for BHVR to balance maps?
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@kit_mason said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3904324#Comment_3904324
You dismiss statements about badham because "You have 0.5% chance to be sent to a map, where Survivors could win 1in10 over you. Anyway."
The SM changes will be mathematically identical in outcome. I'm calling out an inconsistency in logic.
The logic is not inconsistent, yes, the changes of running into Skull merchant is small, but that has nothing to say on the actual reasons which BHVR has given about the problems that Skull merchant has. Your chances of playing Badham 5 would still be insignificant, but the difference being that while a map is distributed evenly, a Killer is played my people so those problems happen to the same people way for often. Context is important to logic, you should not ignore it.
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@kit_mason said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3903995#Comment_3903995
Excited for you to loudly argue against Merchant changes since her pickrate is 1% and her winrate will likely move by less than 5%.
It's a 1% chance for survivors to win 1 in 20 less than they are now, right?
Why would I argue against Merchant changes, BHVR laid out perfectly logical and provable reasons for why she needs to change. Do you not read the preview? or thing its just all opinion? I genuinely don't understand why you think I would argue against that… Can you give me the logic for it?
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3904258#Comment_3904258
Map tweaks and reworks have been happening for YEARS, so there's no reason to believe that changes won't continue to be made, as you seem to be implying. As stated before, if and when they finally decide to make maps like Badham less Survivor-sided, they'd only need to rework one map rather than five. Map variants also don't actually provide variety as you believe. Instead of getting five chances to get Badham, you only get one. That means a better likelihood to get a different map entirely. That is variety.
Your comments are just your opinions, which is absolutely fine. But it seems weird to me that you only counter others' opinions with "you have no proof," as if trying to invalidate their opinions. You don't have any proof for your opinions either, but that doesn't make them any less valid.
You seem to ignore the me addressing that the problem of Treating Map Variants as full maps instead of Variants could have been addressed by making changes to the way Realms are selected. I don't want to have to keep repeating myself, but it seems I have to:
it should work like this:
Roll for Realm. Ormond won.
ormond has 2 maps, 1 with 3 variants.
rolling for maps. Ormond Lodge won.
Rolling for Ormond Lodge Variant
variant 2 won.
to game.Ergo no reason to remove the, we could keep both for even more variety.
Honestly If you have a problem with me demanding proof for claims made in defense of the Map Variant Removal, I find that weird too. Things ought to happen for good reasons, so provable and demonstrable reasons have to be present to justify its removal, I hope you can agree to at least that. The second being I don't make wild unsubstantiated claims to defend the things I talk about and if I do, I make it obvious that it its a guess by me, by saying that.
I know I know, it sucks to get asked to demonstrate why your beliefs correct, which is why I don't try to offer feedback based on what I believe is a good idea, I do it based on if it makes logical sense and has good reasons justifying it. Which is why me analyzing comments for logic and good reasons.
But honestly, you are right, BHVR are the ones who should supply the good reasons why they are doing things, that would be much much much better for discussion, most of the time I just get spitballed by someone who think they are correct about everything and instead of justifying their ideas to me, they just end up repeating themselves. Luckily I do find it entertaining to sort through someone's logic for a suggestion.
Maybe my approach is bad, but I dont think Game Design should be a democracy, I still think BHVR should make changes for a good reason rather than, Oh people dont like this. Which is why I took issue with Mandy's response, people not liking something is a reason to dive into it and figure out why its not liked. Not just removing it.
But @CrypticGirl if you think there is a part of my discussions where I made bad logical sense or made a claim I could not demonstrate without making clear it was unfounded, then please point it out so I can correct the record, its what Im all about.
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How big a sample are you working from and what are any other factors that could contribute?
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@VolantConch1719 said:
About time. The only thing they did was make learning the maps harder, and in the case of Ormond, borderline impossible to get the Mine (I've literally only been on it ONCE since it released).
I never did figure out which Badham was which, and I was around to see their creation (and hated their inception even back then).
And to the person who's crying about their removal, can you honestly tell me ANYTHING about ANY of the variations that made them worth having? Anything at all? Anything that made each one unique and worthy of being a separate map? All they did was serve as bloat that made the game less accessible to players. No one asked for them, so many people outright called them a hindrance to game accessibility, and they were just a downright bad idea from start to finish. Maybe now they can actually balance the maps as they are instead of band-aid fixing them by making them less common (okay, we know that will never happen, but my point stands: instead of having to balance multiple variations of one map, they can focus on what makes that map bad IN THE FIRST PLACE!)
Sure ill take you up on that challenge, You could just @ me if you want my attention, instead of hiding behind "to the person who"
- The Maps were fine to play, about as equal to other maps in the game. There were no leaning to one side to be worthy of note.
- If you felt like the bloated the map system, then BHVR could have made the choice of selecting Map types in a Realm before picking Variants. There is absolutely no need to waste 100s of hours of Map Team team time. BHVR has not answered this question yet.
- The claim that was less accessible to new players is not something that has been proven, I find it much more likely that new players are somewhat always confused about where they are, even on maps that have 1 version like RPD.
I would like BHVR to pull out the proof for this, but I dont think they have it I don't think new players are magically going to improve their playstyle from this update forward, seems very unlikely to me. If you think overwise please demonstrate it. - You double down on Point 3 like 4 times, I refer to you to point 3.
- No one asked for it, is such a weird argument. Because indeed many things in this game isnt exactly asked for, so we should remove anything that someone didnt directly asked for? I dont know why people make this argument, or why they think its worth mentioning. Like BHVR isn't a restaurant, they make changes they themselves ask for.
- "Maybe now they can actually balance the maps", People treat the removal of Map Variants as a new paradigm for Map Balance with like 100% evidence that will happen. I dont even think BHVR is under the impression that the maps, where awful balancewise they dont even say so.
- In your final point you say, that removing Map Variants will reduce the things the map balance team has to do. I would refer you back to point 6, you have no proof this will happen. But a better counter is actually, the more map variants there are the the more places BHVR could change a map for the better with minimal effect on overall balance to see whats better.
That being IF the Map Variants where unreasonably balanced which does not seem to be the case.
Indeed now BHVR has even less ways to train on map balance.
To me its simple why you are wrong. Refer back to points 1 to 7.
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@[Deleted User] said:
To be honest a small handful of the new variants were good, if not better versions of there originals. Suffocation Pit & Family Residence 2 will be missed.
But a good amount were just worse or in Ormonds case bloat. I'v only played on the Ormond Mine map twice since it's release while seeing Ormond Resort at least once every 3 games, not only that it's pretty much the same variant of Ormond every time, i have no idea what the third variant layout look's like and i havn't seen the normal Ormond since the variants were added.
I agree, but tell me why BHVR opted to treat Map Variants then on the same level of as any map type under a realm?
Honestly this seems to be the core problem when you ask why, which could have been solved by simple reprogram of the map selector. But instead we waste 100s of hours of work, that has to be the WORST decision ive seen in a long while.
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3903556#Comment_3903556
I feel like the variants changing up the layout only confuses newbies, and even then they still have WOO, which does that job for them.
While variety can be good, I'd rather see new maps added into the game, instead of a lazy reshuffle of an existing map.
And as for Ormond, it was by far the worst offender after the update to map selection, because the 3 variants of Ormond (who needed 3? Really.) blocked the Lake Mine from appearing.
confusion isnt a problem, only if you tell them you are supposed to know where you are going at all times.
Rather people are just supposed to remember what they ran past the last min and plan an escape route while moving around the map.I think reshuffle of existing assets are fine, its getting more content our of already existing work. It isnt lazy.
The reason it blocked Lake Mine from appearing is that BHVR for some reason, treats Map Variants as Map and not Variants of a Map in the map selector system, instead of making appropriate changes, they opted for wasting 100s of hours of the map team.
Honestly I dont buy the "everybody disliked it" reason they give out for removing Map Variants, people always complain about the maps, because they blame the map, when they themselves are just bad at the game. Otherwise you would have better reasons to remove the map than "everybody disliked it", you would collect stats to show what problems the maps had. But then damn you would be on your way to fix them.
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@kit_mason said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3903959#Comment_3903959
If they don't focus on maps, then I'm right to think that deletion would be better long-term for the game.
If they do focus on maps, then they'd stand to benefit from being able to polish the ones we have rather than having to polish badham five times and ormond thrice and shelter woods twice and- you get the idea.
Also, Unofficial stats do back up Badham - of all the realms in the game, only two boast sub-50% kill rates on nightlight. Forsaken Boneyard and Springwood. Whilst not necessarily accurate to the game's actual numbers, comparing it to the rest of the unofficial data, it's clear Springwood is survivor sided.
Sure, im sure if BHVR does exactly what you say, then that will prove you correct, dont really care about predicting the future right now. I dont understand what you think telling me this would do for your argument here, like either you are wrong or your are right about the facts you fling out. Speculation regarding BHVR following your orders make no sense to me whatsoever.
Also a stats claim, Interesting do you mean these stats?
Yeah by 10% which means every 10 matches, Survivors win 1 more than they need to, which is extremely meaningful ofc.
You have 0.5% chance to be sent to a map, where Survivors could win 1in10 over you. Anyway.
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@kit_mason said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3903935#Comment_3903935
I'm not wrong, generally.
- Badham variants are all famously incredibly survivor sided. Making them less common (especially given there were five of them) is a good thing, imo.
- Ormond variants both have issues with gen spreads that lead to uninteractive gameplay.
- Most Macmillan variants make for maps with problems, especially their size and their tile layouts (although that might be more or less true now that tile logic is busted).
You could argue I am wrong about select variants (Suffo 2 I think is fine but Suffo 1 is also mostly fine tbh, Sanctum of Wrath makes a generally balanced map worse but not in any super egregious way, I literally could not care less about Family Residence II so no opinion there) but on the whole, I think this was the right play for game health. Most of the variants removed were a net detriment in quality. This lets BHVR focus their map balancing efforts on just one map, rather than a map and 1-4 extra shuffled around versions of that map.
These are all claims that could be tested, if the Badham Variants were survivor sides then they would show up as such on stats.
But none of these are things we have evidence currently to substantiate. Without evidence not much I can say to this other than speculation.You are also just repeating and doubling down on what you said two responses ago here.
BHVR has not even acknowledged anything you said could be a thing, Sure they could focus more on less maps, but will they? -
@Rokku_Rorru said:
I didnt see the new ormond map at all since it came out on PTB coz of the variants, good riddence lol
How many matches you play a week?
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@kit_mason said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3903920#Comment_3903920
The logic I am working on here is that I would prefer the maps cease to exist rather than believing that they will be meaningfully improved in the rest of this game's lifespan.
Besides. It's not like BHVR can't still fix maps. Badham may only have 1 variant but that 1 variant still needs fixing.
Well it would be up the BHVR to demonstrate that those maps are indeed unbalanced, if they really are.
What if you are wrong then, what if the map is just about as balanced as any other? Just destroy them anyway? -
@kit_mason said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3903839#Comment_3903839
The issue with this is the speed at which these changes occur. We get maybe one map retune every 4-6 months.
I don't really wanna wait 2-3 years to have a map setup thats passable whilst those maps spend those years being an ever-present issue.
So the logic you are working from here is, BHVR is working too slowly regarding balance of the Maps, and since that is unacceptable to you and that Map Variants seem to be the worst offenders, just delete them?
Like they are like 100s of hours of work from the Map Team and you don't even fix the problem of the speed at which rebalance occurs, we will get more maps next year and those maps will be balanced equally slow.
Dont you think there is a better way to approach this problem then if you dont really solve the core issues and just burn some maps?
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@buggybug said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3903868#Comment_3903868
Did you missed where I said about trash loops, pallets and all kind of clutter? It not just the 3 4 gen reason
Sorry, yeah which trash loops do the variants have over the original?
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So I was looking at if BHVR has given a proper justification and I found this:
Which idd agree with, YES playing the same map over and over sucks (why do you have map offerings then?)
But this isn't an argument against variants of maps, its an argument against Map variants not counting as much as the map when a map is selected.Honestly why dont you just program an exception in the realm selector, to see all variants of a map as a specific type first?
Why waste like probably 200 hours of the Map Team's time by removing the maps`??
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@buggybug said:
While I valid your opinion op, no they where awful specially Ormond. The Ormond variants was king of 3/4 gens situations and killers abused this alot. Also when I think about it, maybe that is maybe why WOO the perk that had 10 billion complaint nerf it topic because it was used so hard by new and old players alike.
I do not use it myself however but that can be a possible reason. Also sure variety is nice but all these variants was clearly copied and paste homework that gave trash loops, trash pallets, 3 and 4 gen situations. People yes may love to experience different things but at the same time people get tired of having to experience new things almost every time. Who knows, maybe less WOO use.
If 3 gens were a problem on the Ormond variants, why dont we just tell BHVR that and fix the maps?
Why do Map Variants just get to get freely nuked, while other maps that definitely have the same problem gets a pass?
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3903768#Comment_3903768
They were in a lot of cases confusing and not very well balanced either. In most of the original maps, things felt like they were placed in certain positions deliberately and carefully whereas a lot of the variants completely lacked that flow and felt like things were moved around solely for the sake of change, which made a lot of them not feel good to play on. Some of them had problems with gen layouts, some of them had issues with loop placements, it varies. But if you asked me to pick the best version out of each map with variants, almost all of the original maps would win.
What is it about the variant maps that you find confusing? Like you don't know where you are or you cant figure that out?
The way I work is; I don't care where I am, if the Killer shows up ill run the nearest tile and run to what I see.About the balancing of the Map Variants, which you are the second person to say are unbalanced, like nothing could be done for those maps then? Like what specifically was unbalanced?
About flow, How could flow be improved?
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@kit_mason said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3903749#Comment_3903749
Both of these Ormond variants encouraged holding 4 gens because their gen spreads were tipped towards 3 or 4 around main.
It's good that they're gone, because neither of them encouraged interaction between the two sides.
If The Ormonds variants truly encouraged 3-genning, then matches on those maps should should end significantly more in such a stalemate. That is at least testable, and then we could spread those Gens out more, Agree?
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3903776#Comment_3903776
They just have always been for me. Could just be how my brain works but everytime I go to a different map variant I feel like my brain is being put through a blender. Everything is all switched up all the time for so many variants. Its frustrating.
What exactly do you mean with "your brain is being put through a blender"?
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@MechWarrior3 said:
I disagree. I never liked the 400 different styles of badham's. Map Variants are frustrating.
Sure you can disagree, but idd like to question why. Why specifically are you saying Map Variants are fustrating?
And frustrating how? I find Nurse frustrating. -
@sizzlingmario4 said:
Removing them is mostly a good change simply because the vast majority of the variant maps were just not good maps. Disregarding the fact that they were variants, a lot of them had things arranged in ways that just felt completely out of place or not well laid-out, they felt rushed if anything and they were mostly downgrades compared to the original maps. It also added an additional barrier to learning maps (especially for newer players) and overall this was not worth the variety it added to the game especially when we already have as many maps in the game as we do even without the variants.
In my opinion, the only one that was actually better than the original and should have stayed was Suffocation Pit 2; Suffocation Pit 1 is a bad map because of its layout (creating 3-gens on either side of the map with a strong center area in between encouraging the killer to mostly stick to one side if they can), a problem which Suffo Pit 2 did not have at all because it was a completely different shape.
As for Badham specifically, 5 variants was simply way too many. I have over 5000 hours in this game and I still could not tell you the exact differences of all the Badham variations and where the buildings spawn on those maps even if I knew which one I was playing on. Also, the entire Badham realm was unbalanced anyways, so hopefully the map design team can now rebalance Badham more effectively now that they only have 1 map to worry about and not 5 of them.
Tell me why the Variant Maps are bad, I don't think so, I have no issue playing them. Didn't seem much different from other maps. like what specific thing is wrong with them?
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@Jaysax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3903660#Comment_3903660
Thats not whats going to happen. The badham 'variants' are just one map, variants of one map. Theyre not suddenly going to remove 3 coldwind maps so theres one map for that realm, because those are maps, not variants. If there were 5 variants of fractured cowshed specifically then removing 4 of them would be comparable to what theyre doing with badham.
What do you mean with:
"Theyre not suddenly going to remove 3 coldwind maps "Look ingame, they are GONE. POOF.
2 Ormond Variants DEAD, ceased to be.
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[to Mandy and BHVR.]
I get the logic of “players don’t like this, so let’s remove it.” But surely, the decision to remove content should be based on more than just general dislike—it should be rooted in strong, causal reasons. What exactly made these variants bad? Was there clear data showing they led to significantly worse gameplay experiences? Were they unbalanced in a measurable way?
From my perspective, map design in DBD has always had some level of procedural generation, and part of the challenge is navigating an unpredictable space. If maps are being removed simply because players "dislike" them, rather than because they fundamentally break the game, then this is a massive departure from the original philosophy of Dead by Daylight, even if it is just a slight reduction in unpredictability. And let’s be honest—this is happening at a time when many in the community are already saying that the game isn’t scary anymore. Making every match more predictable isn’t going to fix that, it will make it much worse.
I made a thread about this (link), and the main complaint I’ve seen is about the Badham variants being too similar, which is fair. But Ormond 2? That’s a perfectly fine variant, and I haven’t seen a single solid argument justifying its removal.
BHVR, I hope you have real, objective reasons for removing 13 maps because “they don’t like it” seens like an incredibly shallow justification for such a major decision. If you do have those reasons, I would love to hear them—because from where I’m standing, this feels like a massive mistake.
To me, from the responses I have gotten people seem to have much bigger problem with realm repeating, which is unrelated but come Ormond.. what are the reasons that the B and C Ormond experiences are so much worse than A. If you ask me, they are the same, but the slight differences make the game much better for me. But now I feel weird because I don't blame the map for not downing survivors as fast and as far as I can see, everyone else is blaming them maps for it.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3903693#Comment_3903693
Are those good maps we lost in this room right now?
What do you mean the corpses on the ground? Yeah, if you didnt ask BHVR to shoot them, they would still be good.
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This is probably the worst patch in a long time, we lost 13 maps and your all laughing.
BHVR could have retired the worst map variants and remade them, but no, we lost so many good maps and why?
No good Official reason given. -
Like honestly, if your problem is with the Badham Variants then ask BHVR to make them more unique.
Don't ask them to remove all variants!I'm seeing the idea floated that its fine to support this because Badham is so bad in their opinion that sacrificing 3 other fine variants, keeping your eyes on the price is fine and all. But destroying perfectly good maps to make a point is horrid.
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@UknownShredder said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3903647#Comment_3903647
But removing all of these maps then we get different realms with different maps. I know i will be enjyoing seeing more of Elementary school. Mental hospital and other maps where i will crush people with ghostface/nurse
But that is only because they dont adress other issues, they treat the map variants as a full map themselves instead of a variant of a map. But that isnt the map variants fault.
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@Na1ts1rhc said:
They should focus on making more maps if the game's lacking variety, different layouts of existing maps are just bloat. This was a good and welcome change and I must say you aren't entirely wrong - variety is undeniably good. 4 versions of the same map is stupid. I know it, you know it, Joe knows it, let's be real.
I can agree, that the Badham Variants specifically are the worst offenders, but that's not a reason to destroy other perfectly fine content. Then they should do something about the problem, not just AXE it.
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@UknownShredder said:
No.
Yesterday i got 3 coldwind and 3 of that haystack map in a row.Then maybe, the map selector should pick by realm. But this isnt a variant issue, is a realm repeat issue.
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@caipt said:
map variants make the new player experience and pathing in general more confusing than necessary. this change was likely made for the influx of players fnaf will bring.
Any of which I address this in the post, if you would read it more closely.
Its not bad to be confused about whats behind the next bush, its part of the game.How do you think Laurie Strode felt in Halloween?
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@ThatRyanB said:
Popping in to confirm that, yes, all variants are removed as part of today's update.
What the heck? What are the good reasons to remove the variants? Variants are perfectly fine.
Yes, they are another thing to learn but that isn't a bad thing.
A truth that has always been in the game is that you run with what you got in the area where you are chased. I know most Survivors want to know where the strongest tile is in every map and run there directly at the start of every chase, but I tell you as Killer when Survivors know where the strong stuff on every map, I get real tired of seeing the same walls every game as Killer.Most of the time if you just focus on playing the game instead of wanting to know where the best tiles, you dont need to know where the best tiles are. Honestly this has totally ruined this release for me, a major content downgrade.
Is this the dbd we want now? where every player knows the location the most abusable tiles so they can run there and abuse it?
By this logic why even bother with making tiles, just make one tile there and keep it like that forever. Why even make new tiles?
Nah, dont make new tiles, cause why? Because someone always says they suck and its another thing to learn.I find this logic INCREDIBLY BAD and immensely unreasonable, what happend to you BHVR, what made you suddenly lose faith in like 15% of your map content. Whats the logic you are going to be working with forward?
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How much is the Trapper lacking behind the other Killers? like what 10%?? I think other Killers have issues too.
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@TieBreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3903169#Comment_3903169
Is it a livestream or something?
yeah, its the Run of the show for tomorrow's live steam.
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@TieBreaker You might actually get your wish tomorrow.
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What's your Power Supply able to produce vs. what is the theoretical consumption of your rig?
What is the cap between those two, cause I used to have like 300 watt to spare and it didn't like me playing DBD.
Now I have like 500watt extra and everything runs as it should,Not saying you have the same issue, just trying to help with my experience.
ALSO, make sure every lil chipset is updated too, Ive also had such an experience.
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Nah, I dont think I wanna see Balanced Landing and Dead Hard or Sprint Burst and Dead Hard.
Sorry mate, we tried it once with multiple exhaustion perks and it was really bad.
I think most agree Dead Hard is in a fine balanced place atm. -
Some perks could have that effect in general, but as a basekit? no need for everybody to see where dropped items is.
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Me when I feel validated in my ENDLESS critique of the LoadingScreen tips being SUPER vague and unhelpful.
She said it, She said it. Do you hear me BHVR??? Those loading screen tips need a VAST upgrade Pleaaaaasee!
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He seems to be a lil harder to play than before, but its fun to play him, its not easy by any take.
It takes a lil to get used to when the chainsaw goes off its a lil unstable like "WOOOOOAH #########", but its not an issue to me.
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I still dont know what Onryo does, like she comes at you and I have to grab I tape I guess.
This is one of my majorest problems with BHVR, its how they almost INSIST of trying to avoid writing to players how you counterplay, like in loading screen. "Nononono, you get no help. cause we want you to have an experience of discovery."
Please BHVR there is like 40 Killers in this game, I cant contain it all.