Dino7281
Dino7281
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@AnObserver said:
What I've wanted to see:
Survivors can base-kit pick themselves up from the dying state (after some additional time) but are Broken for a duration if they're not helped by another Survivor
The Killer is incentivized to Hook different Survivors and leave hook by giving Survivors DS/BT base-kit, and Hooking different Survivors will disable this effect after a threshold, and will let you Kill a Survivor after a point.
Corrupt Intervention as base-kit to move Survivors around at the start instead of immediately starting M1 simulator (which is boring).
NOED becomes base-kit by having all remaining Dull Totems become Hexes once the final generator is completed. The Killer can snuff out these Hex Totems to Expose all Survivors for 60s.
Comparing this to your suggestions:
Totally agree with DS/BT/UB, however DS/BT need to be disabled after generators are repaired.
Ruin is far too passive to be base-kit. Pop would be cool, but without the Hook requirement and reduced effect.
Yeah, no.
Some killers just have to use slugging to be viable. This would be super broken against Oni, or Twins...
"NOED becomes base-kit by having all remaining Dull Totems become Hexes once the final generator is completed. The Killer can snuff out these Hex Totems to Expose all Survivors for 60s."
That's super useless. You don't have time for this and not all killers benefits from exposed status.
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@Nathan13 said:
BT and DS seems a little OP as basekit mechanics.
DS + unbreakable is even more broken. Like what can you do? :D
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@nikodemo said:
For the health of the game and play experience, what perks do you think should just become base kit? Numbers can be tweaked, of course, but I think it's ok to make everyone stronger to address some gameplay concerns.
Surv: BT, Unbreakable, DS.
Slugging, tunneling and camping are so unpleasant that these perks are run almost all the time just to get a chance to play the game.
Since they improve the quality of the experience so much and encourage better play, just make them base kit already.
Killer: Ruin, Pop.
Similarly, genspeed can be so oppressive that killers are often running multiple gen regression/stalling perks just to buy some time. I wouldn't expect them to be as powerful as they are now.
I do think kicking a gen needs to apply some percentage of reduction to justify the time spent, and regression after kick should be faster. Also, survs should have to take time to stop the regression, no more instant tap.
At base I do think gens and exit gates should be regressing when not actively being fixed, either at current normal regression speed or slightly less, but less fast than a kicked gen. This would of course mean that a killer could kick a gen that was in passive regression.
What abilities do you think should be made universal to improve both the flow of the game and the variety of perk options?
I can see BT and DS, but unbreakable would destroy lot of killers. RIP Oni
Slugging is important and that would be only way to counter DS, it's stupid to give them both.
It's kinda funny, total of 8 extra perks vs 2...
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Can we also add validation to a Doctor?
So you will not be able to vault, or drop pallets in that last second...
Clown would be nice too, so you can't fast vault.
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@AGM said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2598054#Comment_2598054
That's not how rates work. 33% of something is not the same as a 33% rate increase. The formula is:
(100%/sum of rate increases in %)(16 seconds) = heal time
100% base heal speed + 33% from Botany = 133%
(100%/133%)(16) = about 12 seconds.
Thank you for info, I wasn't sure about this, so didn't want to argue that much about this part.
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This game is balanced for few killers. Then you have a lot of killers, where it's really not.
Then you see changes like Wraith, or Deathslinger nerf and you just lose hope...
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2598080#Comment_2598080
If CoH is a problem, the Developers will fix it. I'm sure they're watching it closely. I just think a lot of Killers have "Lucky-Breakitis". The numbers just aren't on the Killer's side.
2- You are not taking into account that it GIVES self care, you don't need to find another survivor to heal
If someone heals you, compared to healing yourself, does it matter if the time works out to the same.
3- You count the time you need to get to there and heal but you dont count the time you need to find a survivor to heal and coordinate, that seems oddly convenient
If you are talking about coordinating with an SWF, you just tell them what gen you are at, run to it. If you aren't, survivors are always at gens. Heck, if the survivor that unhooks you doesn't have a single healing perk, he can still heal you in 16 seconds. That's 96 seconds for 3 heals off hook compared to 82 seconds for CoH. That's a 14 second time different without even using a perk.
4- You are still ignoring that even if it was true that self-care + botany is better than circle of healing on an individual case, it takes 8 perk slots, Circle of Healing takes only 1 slot. Do you see how stupidly imbalanced this is?
You can get healed off hook for 32 seconds without a single perk compared to 42 seconds with CoH.
I'm not saying CoH is a bad perk. But I am saying that it's not a meta perk. You can get heals from anywhere in DBD. You can't get DS, BT, UB, Exhaustion Perks, Adrenaline, Iron Will, etc from anywhere.
"DS, BT, UB, Exhaustion Perks, Adrenaline, Iron Will"
Yeah, imagine that everyone can use those perks instead of stacking self-care +botany knowledge...
"If you are talking about coordinating with an SWF"
So now we talk about SWF? Then your whole argument about problem with totem is just not valid. That's really not an issue for decent SWF.
You don't always have an option to heal with someone else, but you always have option to do it yourself. That's the biggest difference.
The fact that everyone can play alone, that is nightmare of every killer.
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2597849#Comment_2597849
33% of 16 is 10.72 seconds, looking at the page it does say it's "approximately 12". With Botany Knowledge, survivors would general find each other at gens, so travel time would be in Botany Knowledge's favor, but lets ignore that. However, I would say you need to add the time finding a totem. If you don't have a totem finding perk, you would spend much more time finding a totem, than if didn't. I'd say, without a perk, it's going to take you 20 to 40 seconds finding a totem. With a perk, it will probably take about 10ish. However, lets ignore that also. We'll just go with your numbers.
62 seconds compared to 72 seconds is pretty much equal.
I would argue that Botany Knowledge really wouldn't have travel time because survivors usually find each other at gens. Also, time finding a totem wasn't added in for CoH. But even with your numbers, I'm not seeing how it's a big problem.
You usually find totem while traveling between gens, so with that logic both doesn't matter.
It's still just you vs whole team. What if you are the one injured all the time? What if you are on hook / chase and other players need to heal?
Everyone in your team have to use med-kits and multiple perks just to get effect of 1 perk.
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@R1ch4rd_N1x0n said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2597972#Comment_2597972
I think it would be nice if it were an option for the Killer though, to let them choose to destroy the Totem entirely or just remove the blessing.
hey sure, that would be best, but I will just rather always destroy totem than don't be able to do it at all.
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@R1ch4rd_N1x0n said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2597383#Comment_2597383
Okay? What's your point? They could go put the Boon on another Totem after you destroy that one, which could result in you destroying all of your Totems and thus, not letting you use your NOED.
It turns the Totem dull instead of breaking it so it'll leave that Totem there, so NOED or Plaything can potentially light up on it later if it isn't re-blessed.
Both of those perks are worse already, because of boons. It wouldn't really change much.
It would be actually better for NOED, because you have higher chance it will spawn on totem, they didn't find yet, so it will last longer.
Plaything is #########.
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@GoshJosh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2597760#Comment_2597760
For next time, the animation is visibly different for each.
Yeah, I saw only his back from around a corner, so there was no way for me to know... Sorry, I will wait next time to take a look. He might destroy that totem meanwhile, but I will know for sure at least.
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@slendermansmoom said:
how about we add this as a new perk
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/YKMPS8393AI5/e2c00e8fb2b52bb6e81d669407c11e7b.jpg
Alright, seems fair...
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2597689#Comment_2597689
The idea is different so it scares everyone, because it's never been done before. So you really have to break down the numbers to see if it's really as different as it sounds. Since we have not had something like CoH, we have to use the closest thing to it to compare it and we have to find a bases to compare it from, so lets use survivor time.
Based on my example before, 3 heals from CoH requires 82 seconds of survivors time. (I'm rarely seeing boon totems last more than 3 heals, so far, so I'm using that as an example)
Now, if a "Botany Knowledge" survivor actively uses the perk to heal survivors. It's still a single perk that the whole team can benefit from (it's not exactly the same but it's the closest thing we have to compare with). If a survivor heals 3 times with it, it costs both the survivor and the survivor being healed 10 seconds each. So 20 seconds a heal. Used 3 times, it's 60 seconds of survivors time used.
So, as you can see, the time used is relatively the same, Botany Knowledge edging out CoH in time effeciency. Again, they aren't the exact same perk and require difference conditions, but based on time efficiency, they are pretty much the same.
What I'm saying is that it sounds scary but once you compare them for how much time survivors are using, they really are pretty darn close.
Your numbers are not correct. So looks like you wanna ignore travel time, ok.
3 heals CoH 14 + 3x16 = 62s, that is alone noone else have to move from gen.
Botany knowledge heal is 12 second, so 24 * 3 = 72s
It's based on wiki, but I am not sure if it is 12 / 10, but it doesn't matter that much...
Problem is that it works only if both survivors have Botany knowledge. Just 1 is not enough.
So, you can see, the time used is not same. CoH edging out Botany Knowledge in effeciency
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No, if so then pig's trap would do it too and that is really bad idea.
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@Mandibutts said:
As the title states, placing a boon on a totem does not interrupt Decisive Strike, even though cleansing a totem does. Can this be added as an interruption to Decisive? I encountered while playing killer, where someone was in the middle of placing down a boon mid-chase and I grabbed them only for them to have Decisive. It's not a big deal but it does feel like an oversight.
I was actually baited by this once. I saw him on my hex, so I downed him and then was surprised by DS...
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2597515#Comment_2597515
I'm using Botany Knowledge as an example but there are other healing perks I could use as an example.
Botany Knowledge affects your entire team also. With CoH, the only difference is you go to the healing perk instead of the healing perk going to you. Well, that and the fact that, as killer, you have absolutely no control over Botany Knowledge. CoH, you can at least destroy it.
Botany Knowledge doesn't make others heal faster. You have to be involved. So that's nowhere near same thing. It also doesn't make them heal alone, that is main problem.
You can't destroy it, you can only remove it for some time, but it also wastes your time.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2597618#Comment_2597618
I mean, yeah, but that's because Inner Healing is kind of a mediocre perk, a lot of healing perks are stronger than Inner Healing.
If the killer can see it and knows that snuffing it permanently disables the totem it's on, then it is a good idea to ignore chase and go stomp on that totem regardless of chase or gen patrolling. The counterplay wouldn't be the same- you'd get it out of the way as quickly as possible every time you see it, and then the game just doesn't have the totems in.
Now, I can practically sense the Hex comparison coming, and once again: Not the same mechanic, shouldn't function the same way.
The counterplay would be the same -> Killer can remove it. Right now, it's just not worth it. That's the difference.
You know that alternative to make it balanced is nerf that effect, right?
Even as survivor, I will rather nerf it in terms of using it than effect.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2597570#Comment_2597570
It's not a safe haven if you can't relight the same totem. If you can't relight the same totem, Shadow Step is markedly less useful and CoH is just a single-use heal that you can place down a few times. If it's a safe haven, it has to be more permanent than that, that's kind of what a safe haven is.
And no, I don't see the problem in telling you to time when you snuff a boon totem more effectively than just abandoning a chase to do it. You do it when that's the best option, not because you feel like you're actively being harmed by the totem simply being up. Either nobody's using it and you're free to finish the chase, or someone is using it and you can chase them instead. It's just a resource that survivors have, it's not losing you the game passively when nobody's using it.
Snuffing totems could be more impactful via cooldown or slowing down how long it takes to bless a totem that's been kicked a few times, but if the totems are broken or the perk only has a few tokens, it completely neuters the whole idea behind the perk.
So it would have same system as any other totem requirement perk. Imagine Inner healing that could just use from same totem over and over again... and that would still be weaker than CoH
but still would be for your whole team and killer would still have to leave gen to actually remove it.
So bad...
You act like killer can just instantly destroy it, everytime. He sees it across the map and know exactly where to go. It's still safe haven, place where your whole team get to heal and benefit from 2 free perks.
If you can get only 1 heal from it, well. Maybe you didn't really used it smart way...
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@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2597512#Comment_2597512
I'm not saying it can't be nerfed, I'm saying you need to be aware of what the mechanic is supposed to do before figuring out how to tweak it. The totems being relit is the core concept behind the perk and the thing that makes it work for both sides, not a problem aspect of some other focal point.
Yeah, I agree, snuffing a totem isn't worth losing a chase or leaving a patrol, so... don't do it then? No matter what other changes they make to the mechanic, even if they totally neutered it by making totems broken on snuffing, you'd still only want to snuff the totem during downtime after a down/hook, not in the middle of a chase or instead of completing a chase, I feel like a lot of people are not managing their time efficiently when it comes to snuffing a boon.
I don't mind the idea of blessing taking longer for each time a killer snuffs a totem, though. That's not a super bad idea to encourage keeping a boon up for as long as possible on the survivor side and to make snuffing more impactful, I could just see it spiralling out of control if the values are too high, so it'd have to be done very carefully.
"The totems being relit is the core concept behind the perk."
Is said where? Core concept is safe haven based on totem location that can your whole team benefit from.
Who ever said you can do it infinetly?
"don't do it then?"
You don't see nothing wrong with that?
This is basically 8 perks in 1 and killer can't get rid of it unless he kills that player, which is way harder, because of that perk...
There is no reason for a killer to keep that totem. Don't you think it's weird that survivor can destroy totem, but killer can't? Survivors are moving hands around it and destroy it, killer stomps on it and it's fine... Someone skipped leg day
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@vacaman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2597302#Comment_2597302
It wouldn't be a big deal if it only affected you. It's a perk that everyone can benefit from for just 1 perk slot. If you can't see the obvious design failure i don't know what to say.
Yeah, it's just so annoying when you know that you can't snowball by spreading injuries. You are forced to commit on chases, that you know it's bad idea to do...
Tunneling is just best way to deal with this, which I don't think is good thing...
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@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2597438#Comment_2597438
I would definitely support a cooldown before you can change where you put the boon down, because you're right- it does undercut the idea of committing to a safe haven if you can just rebless it whenever. I don't think it's the most needed balance change ever, but it'd make it more consistent and I'd be fine with it. Similarly, I think that a boon totem having a cooldown after it's snuffed (but only a moderate one- thirty seconds, maybe) would help them think about where to put it since the killer snuffing it would have a little more impact. Again, I don't think this is a dramatic need but it is a little more warranted than the first idea.
CoH isn't a safe haven when the killer is inside. Shadow Step is supposed to benefit you when the killer is inside, but to be fair, that's the weaker half of it.
Hexes and Boons are not the same mechanic. They're not designed to affect the same things, they don't work the same, and they're not intended to have the same effect on the match. Trying to make one-to-one comparisons between the two simply, straight up, just does not work, period.
I am not saying it's same. I am saying your argument is weird.
"It can't be nerfed, because that's how it is supposed to work."
That's not really good approach to balancing the game...
It's super broken compare to Inner Healing and killer just can't do much about it now, unless you find out who has it and tunnel the ######### out of him.
Snuff it, so they can just do it again? Yeah, that's just not worth leaving gens, or losing chase for it. There just have to be some motivation to get rid of it. Don't forget it's time spent by 1 out of 1 vs 1 out of 4.
If you don't like removing totem, then fine.
Cool-down is really not good enough, unless you make it overkill like 2 minutes, noone cares. You would just use 2 of them, so 1 is always active and before killer can get rid of second one, you will have first back.
Possible way would be to punish survivors for each time their totem gets removed. Like that healing, or blessing will take longer for each time killer snuffed it.
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2597344#Comment_2597344
It's not hard to find a totem, you have several guaranteed spawns on most maps.
This takes time and there have been several times I haven't found a totem the entire match. Running a totem finding perk is the only way to reliably make sure you can quickly find a totem quickly enough, so it's not effecting your time doing gens.
Everyone healing there after it heals in 16 seconds. That's alone, without any help, without any perk, any item. Just because someone used 1 perk.
This is inaccurate. You are not counting the time to bless the totem and you are not counting the time to find the totem. It is not 16 seconds. If you want to pretend that travel time and finding a totem doesn't exist, it's still a 30 second heal the first time you use it. If 2 people use it, the time efficiency is 23 seconds. Again, that's without counting finding a totem and traveling to the totem, which you still have to account for. If someone is running "Botany Knowledge", every heal they do is 10 seconds. "Botany Knowledge" is a single perk and works for everyone on the team. "We'll make It" is 6 seconds, about 3 times as time efficient as CoH. And trust me, if you are running "We'll Make It", you going for hook saves. 1 hook save with "We'll Make It" equals 3 uses of CoH. So you don't have to make ever hook save to get time efficiency out of "We'll Make It".
"Self-Care and Botany Knowledge"
Interesting, so you need 2 perks on every survivor to have effect of 1 perk in whole team? 8 vs 1
"Botany Knowledge" is a single perk and works for the entire team. 1 perk for the whole team. And it gives you 10 second heals, compared to 27 seconds. It's almost 3 times as time effective.
there have been several times I haven't found a totem the entire match
Then you must learn more, I guess? Only map where I can take it is Raccoon city, that map is hell for totems. I have never had game, where I would have problem to find totem. Well, I have used Detective's hunch for like a hundred games, so I just know spawns, but I just don't value perk based on someone who can't actually use it well. Yeah, if you don't know totem spawns, then it's not that good for you and use something else. With SWF you have multiple people that can search while traveling between gens and tell it to you...
You are not counting the time to bless the totem and you are not counting the time to find the totem.
That's why I said after. Your heal takes longer because of it. Not others and they can do without anything. They don't need any perk, any item and they can do it alone. If you don't have those things, then you have travel time to someone who can heal you. I am not saying it's not there, I am saying you would do it anyway.
Botany Knowledge" is a single perk and works for the entire team.
No, it works for you and when you heal someone. It's not entire team.
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@OopsAllHexes said:
Why not just... put the Boon on a small cooldown when snuffed? Wouldn't that fix the issue?
Not really, unless you give it like 2 minutes :D
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@jesterkind said:
It's not a good idea- the whole point of the boon mechanic is to make sure survivors are returning to the same spot over and over so that they can get utility buffs and so the killer at least knows they're going to be in one spot. From the survivor side, it's also supposed to be a safe haven you can return to if you need to, and that's not achieved if you have to seek out another spot- it's definitely not achieved if you run out of places it can go.
If the effects of boon perks are too strong to be up semi-permanently, then the effects should be tuned down; there's no point in just completely abandoning the boon totem mechanic by making it that temporary.
It will still work like that. Killer doesn't have to get rid of it, if he wants them to stay there.
And it doesn't really work like that now, because they can just change location even when boon is active.
This would force them to think where and when they will use boon totem. Right now, it's just brainless.
It will still be their safe haven till killer finds it. I am pretty sure it's not supposed to be safe haven with killer inside...
If your argument is valid, then why you can remove hex? It's supposed to be strong perk killer can use, but survivors can get rid of it, but it would be bad if that could happen to them? hmm, weird...
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@R1ch4rd_N1x0n said:
I think the reason they made it to where it doesn't break the Totem is so NOED can still activate. But I think it would be cool if it were an option for the Killer to simply remove the blessing, or destroy the Totem entirely.
It can't over boon...
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I don't think they can do it. It's just how it works in this game.
But yeah, you have basically double range.
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@Munqaxus said:
Speaking specifically about Circle of Healing...
- Very few survivors can find a totem reliably, so the large majority of survivors are going to run Small Game or something else. So most times Boons are taking up 2 spots.
- Next, let's do the math on healing speeds for boons.
- Boons take 14 seconds to bless, 16 seconds to use. So 30 seconds for a heal.
- However, you also have to find the totem, say that takes about 16 seconds. But to err on the side of caution, let's say you're really fast at finding a totem, so 8 seconds. The heal time is now up to 38 seconds
- Since survivors won't be around the totems area of effect, they will have to travel to it. I would say on average, you will have people in it about 1/3 of the time and survivors that have to travel about 8 seconds to it the other 2/3s of the time. So 4 extra seconds for travel. The heal time is up to 42 seconds.
- First Heal - 42 seconds
- The 2nd Heal would add 16 more seconds for healing and 4 seconds travel time. So 2 heals cost survivors a total of 62 seconds, divided by 2 is 31 seconds for each heal.
- The 3rd heal would add another 20 seconds, so 82 seconds. Divided by 3 is 27 seconds for each survivor.
- If the Killer breaks the totem, which the probably will before 3 people gets heals, then you add 14 more second and 8 seconds finding the totem.
Now take Self-Care and Botany Knowledge
- If you heal yourself, you are getting 21 second heals. 21 second heals is much better than 27 second heals.
- However, if you heal someone else, you are getting 10 second heals. Boon totems will never beat Self-Care and Botany Knowledge for the speed of heals and Killers can't "snuff out" Botany Knowledge and Self Care. Botany Knowledge works for the entire team.
We'll Make it
- Single perk that gives you 8 second heals. Again, much more time efficient than Circle of Healing and benefits the entire team except yourself.
Do you see why Circle of Healing isn't a big deal. You can ignore it as Killer until you are going past it and it only hurts survivors, time-wise.
It's not hard to find a totem, you have several guaranteed spawns on most maps.
Everyone healing there after it heals in 16 seconds. That's alone, without any help, without any perk, any item. Just because someone used 1 perk.
They will have to travel to it? Yeah, you don't run somewhere with med-kit? You do it in front of a killer? You always run somewhere, this just changes where you go. That range is not small, so you are not that limited unless it's really in corner of the map. So you can't really count your travel time only to CoH.
"We'll Make it"
Only if you are the one who unhooked and again you can't do it alone. So this doesn't really negate hit&run, nor 3-gen.
"Self-Care and Botany Knowledge"
Interesting, so you need 2 perks on every survivor to have effect of 1 perk in whole team? 8 vs 1
Do you see how it is big deal that killer can't get rid of it?
Unless you find out who has it and tunnel the ######### out of him...
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Yeah, just try to compare it to Inner Healing.
I think killer should just destroy that totem.
There is just little motivation for a killer to care about it and leave gens for it.
There is little punishment for using your boon where it will be found fast. It's super braindead to use now.
And NOED / Plaything should be able to spawn over Boon, if there is no dull totem.
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@Kira4Evr said:
The Deathslinger nerf was needed in my opinion. But I can agree that they took it too far. But I don't really think there was possible to nerf him in a way that wasn't too much or too little.
- Because the biggest issue was his quick scope and how fast he could aim and stop aiming because there was literally nothing you could do about that. And because that was literally everything he had that actually was good, the nerf really made him weaker, less special, and less fun from many people.
- And the terror radius nerf was okay I guess. Because Deathslinger with Monitor was literally more stealthy than Ghost Face. You could get shot before even hearing his Terror Radius. I guess they nerfed it because of Monitor. And instead of nerfing Monitor itself, they made Deathslinger's Terror Radius larger.
These two nerfs together really made Deathslinger quite weaker. So yea, they nerfed him too far, but I don't think there was a way to keep him as fun and "decent" as he used to be.
Why was quick-scope issue? It's not true there wasn't nothing you could do about it.
It wasn't hard to predict, if you ever played him and you could react to it with Dead Hard, because of travel time, unless he was really close. Like can you react to Nurse? Can you react to Spirit? or Nemesis? Only difference is that you know you will get hit in advance, but there is not much you can do about it, if their land hit. So that is just placebo effect.
I would agree with longer ADS, if he was hitscan (0ms travel time), that would be actually thing of better aim, but it's not, it's quite slow instead. Or he had huge hitbox for his projectile like Huntress, but it's not, it's super small.
Issue was ADS fake nerf, there you were #########, but now you have ADS walking instead...
Deathslinger has limitations other ranged killers don't, so why was it so bad to have something good other ranged killers don't too?
He is less unique, more clumsy, less fun and just worse. There is no reason to play him now, unless you like his hat.
ADS reduced FOV and sensitivity is terrible and any FPS player can tell you that.
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@Nobody_TM said:
This data was taken from a released article dated 1 year & four days to the posting of this discussion, and considering nothing was done or changed from Deathslinger until September 28th 2021 in patch 5.3.0, I feel this is an accurate representation of Calebs abilities & popularity. At the time of this article, less people were playing Bubba & Nurse, than Caleb. This is to say, he is a niche killer; and frankly I was fine with that. I didn't expect anything in terms of making some of his useless add-ons more viable or perhaps making his Irediscents, alright. But Deathslinger to me always hit that nice sweetspot, of a killer who was not too strong, but powerful in the right scenario. Likewise his average kill rate reflects that in no way was he overpowered, or underperforming. He was sitting just at the threshold of 55% kill rate, otherwise known as a draw between survivors & killers. Isn't that something you should strive for? Anyhow, before I go more into the problems of nu-Deathslinger, I'd like to talk about my perspective on the Old Deathslinger.
Caleb Quinn (Deathslinger) was the Perfect Side-grade to Anna (Huntress)
Think about the Philosophy of use between these two Characters. Its honestly more well thought out than perhaps you'd be willing to admit. Huntress has 5 hatchets to start. Realistically, they have no cap on their range & are only limited by the environment & skill of the player. Huntress is able to get downs that other killers can only dream about; over pallets, several meters away, and still have a few more rounds of ammunition before a brief pause to reload. Her Terror radius is huge factoring in Lullabye, though this layer of confusion & information often brought its own advantages, & considering the range & potential down, didn't serve as that much of an impediment, realistically, despite being a 110% killer.
Caleb on the other hand, cannot down at range or over pallets. His range likewise, is limited to 18 meters, and hitting a shot let alone getting a successful reel on an 18 meter shot was rare if its ever happened to anyone at all. His shot took time, his reel took time, and a hit would take time. To balance these disadvantages, he was given what Huntress did not have; an element of stealth & reload on-the-go (though limited to one shot at a time). At 24 meters of terror radius, Calebs glaring disadvantage was eased, as he could close distance quickly and be well within the range to use his power. There were counters for this of course, SWF communication (as DS is very tall and easy to spot) and the almighty spine chill. But it did its job and allowed Caleb breathing room to use his power. Likewise, his unlimited ammo & 1 shot capacity were a give & take. True you were always in the fight, but a missed shot had its own consequences. The longer the miss the longer the back reel, the reload, and the movement speed penalty. Caleb was the King of the 1v1, yes. But he had realistically no gen or map pressure capability. He relied purely on pressuring people & doing that quickly.
The Complaints about Counter Play Seem almost illusionary.
Listen I've dumped a substantial time into Survivor too. I get it. That said, as a survivor I knew what hurt Deathslinger the most; high objects, long wall jungle gyms, dead harding at corners just like Huntress. But people seemed to focus in on the fact that skilled Deathslingers would drop instant shots at a certain range. I for one was a master of this and loved using Crosshair overlays to secure quick scope + draw ins for a hit. From a survivors perspective, there was nothing that could be done. That said, his stats never showed over-performance despite a supposedly uncounterable power. Why? Because Deathslinger was in fact, balanced to begin with. This was his power. Winning 1v1's incredibly quickly.
Nevertheless, he did have counterplay, one of the easiest counterplays in the game. In the same vein of making Legion a relatively powerless killer, all you had to do to counter Deathslinger was spread out. In the same way Legion couldn't punish a team with injury if you spread thin, Deathslinger couldn't snowball effectively from hook to hook. Likewise high geometry loops of which there are plentiful on many, many maps, served as their own personal hell for Deathslinger. Combine this without Legions mobility, and a quarantined team could easily give Deathslinger a brutal, unforgiving time.
But what do I mean by illusionary perception of counterplay? Well think about it. The real complaint is you can't see him ADS before a shot, no prep time (despite the fact that the chain is not hit scan and longer shots can easily be Deadharded with even a cursory understanding, not to mention juked). The act of seeing something seems to be the issue, despite the fact that other killers achieve similar effects with, well no counterplay. Slapping a survivor with an Intoxication bottle directly doesn't allow for a lot of counterplay, but hey, you could see it right? Pinheads chains if used correctly, just drop on top and hit M1, but hey you could see him warming up and maybe perceive the 1 second of the chain. You can see doctor prepping a charge, but does that do you any-good in the shock at a window or a pallet given the question of take hit or take a hit? Asking for counterplay or nerfs to these already mediocre powers would seem a tad ridiculous, and most people don't ask for them. Why then is it different for Caleb? There are many instances where you just have to accept a hit or a down. Calebs strength for all his faults, was that with high enough skill, open terrain or normally semi-safe pallets, could be where your power shines.
Calebs original downsides have been compounded to the point of total frustration.
Now that you have some insight and understanding as to the killers strength & weaknesses, lets look at 5.3.0's effects on Deathslinger.
- The Deathslinger must now wait for the Exit Aim animation to complete before being able to attack (0.6 seconds)
- Increased movement speed when aiming down sights to 85% (was 75%)
- The cooldown when a survivor breaks free is now the same duration as a successful hit cooldown
- Increased terror radius to 32 meters (was 24 meters)
- The Deathslinger must now wait for the Enter Aim animation to complete before being able to fire (0.4 seconds)
- Add-on – Gold Creek Whiskey: Removed movement speed penalty
- Add-on – Marshal’s Badge: Removed movement speed penalty
- Add-on – Iridescent Coin: Decreased range requirement to 12 meters (was 15 meters)
- Reworked Add-on – Hellshire Iron: When a Survivor is speared, gain Undetectable. The effect persists for 10 seconds after the Survivor is no longer speared.
All and all you'd probably say, thats just a typical rework; he has received some changes and two soft buffs. They are far more significant than you think.
Lets put aside the add-on changes, the take away from them is they've either been changed to support Nu-Deathslinger or made into something totally not useless. I for one just generally don't run Iri's anyhow, but they are at least powerful now in a realistic way.
Lets focus on his Power Changes. For one, exit & aim speed animation has all but gutted the ability to quick scope opponents. In all likelihood now, you will see Deathslinger ADSing before a shot. His movement speed was increased to 85% from 75%, so the intention is to continue to chase while ADSing or at least be moving. Survivors now have so much counterplay to Calebs power its on par if not worse than Clowns Intoxication abilities.
Please, I beg of you, just put aside your own personal prejudices towards killers in general, and hear me out. Caleb is 110% killer already. In pursuit of a long-shot that would normally be available to him, he has a long delay, in which case the shot may already have dissipated. Furthermore, juking at range is going to be far more effective, you can tell he's aiming why not serpentine a little? In all likelyhood, Deathslinger will either lose that long shot to time, but lets just say Deathslinger misses a 15 meter shot. He had a 0.5 second delay in lining it up, he now has 1.5 seconds to reel the harpoon back, and another 2.75 seconds to reload, which he will do if he wants to use his power again. All the while during this time, Caleb was moving at 85% speed for the lined shot, which is 93.5% movement speed (6.5% slower than the survivor), then throughout the shot & the reload, 66% movement speed for the next 4.13 seconds. Presuming the line shot was .5 seconds, all and all Caleb now loses in 4.63 seconds 72.5% movement relative to his survivor. In 4.63 seconds, in terms of speed being relative, that is more distance created than by any exhaustion perk in the game: Lithe, Sprintburst, Balanced Landing, Smash Hit, take your pick. They only increase movement speed by 150% for 3 Seconds. Caleb now is punished to such a degree that the best time he can hope for on a missed shot is 4.63 seconds wasted for the equivalent of a survivor having 172.5% movement speed.
Due to the absolutely ridiculous nature of the punishment now at hand, Deathslingers are encouraged to play boring, & unfortunately for them, predictably. Since you can't afford to miss and now that your long shots are more slated against you than ever, whats left but to be a slow, less talented version of say Nemesis or Pyramid Head, only taking shots at guaranteed points, or at semi-safe pallet loops, albeit in the most painful & clunky way possible. PH has no movement speed impairment while using Punishment of the Damned. Nemesis is lowered to 95%, but again, he can down at range & over pallets in addition to being a 115% move speed base. Ground is still being gained, and both can do something Deathslinger cannot do. Hit over pallets. One can even drag their AOE over a space for a confirmed hit, the other through walls. They likewise do not have to deal with the 125% increase in Zoom (literal tunnel vision) or waste time reloading after their miss slow down, which is equivalent to a hit anyhow for both. One has no penalty to prepping a shot & both lose significantly less time over-all the Deathslinger in addition to downing at range.
Caleb on the other hands maximum speed while ADSing is somewhere between 93.5% of with the addons an addition 3.5% for 97%, or if my order of operations is messed up here, 97.35%. Either way, any survivor or killer for that matter can tell you the difference between a measly 5% movement speed. People live and die by those numbers, and we have a killer here who cannot down at range, has a limited ranged of 18 meters (good luck on that reel) and has to lose ground by a colossal amount for any missed shot, being penalized up to 6.5% movement speed for his trouble.
What this translates to is an addon dependent killer, as you must ADS to use your power, so you might as well stack both movement speed addons, or at least one of them. Additionally taking keys, reel speed or chains will become a must as virtually all of them give you some semblance of a chance. The better solution of course, is not to take risky shots, which will realistically be anything below 13 meters, and more preferably, 5-8 meters.
Now Deathslinger will chase around pallets with bunny hopping crouch walks as the players draw out the inevitable, wasting everyone's time, but more importantly the killers for this hit or down. Windows & vaults will be the most common point of injury for the nu-Deathslinger, as the power encourages you to never use it unless you have utter certainty, and for often enough, little to some reward.
Chain breaks are still a dubious waste of time. It does get a chuckle out of me that the buff to his no vision limited movement speed after a chainbreak (which again, cannot down, only injure) was called a QOL improvement. Not even BHVR considers this a buff, because realistically, chain breaks are what they have always been. An absolute last resort. Chain breaking someone at distance is almost never worth losing the target, which will happen when you consider the speed not to mention total line of sight cut off. The removal of Chain Break addons has only compounded this as an almost regardless effort. Chain Breaks are only done as a last resort, ideally they shouldn't happen at all. 3 seconds from what I imagine was originally 4, is still a huge price to pay for not being able to see your opponent, and then having to again, spend an additional 4.13 reloading while they run the length of a football field with an additional speed boost on top of the relative 66-69% actual speed created by this encountered. This does not even factor in the time wasted on a chain break itself i.e. the reeling process.
These changes would still be enough to destroy Deathslinger in my opinion, his weakness are tuned up to 11, but we now arrive at the nail which drives its stake right into the heart of Deathslingers gimmick: His terror radius. Having changed his terror radius from 24 to 32, players will now start running with ample time to prepare for Deathslinger. Combined with his limited 18 meters max range & his 110% movement, Survivors now have their pick of when and where Deathslinger will be engaged. Gutting his elements of suprise to compensate for no map control, gen pressure and most importantly, his limited range, Deathslinger now starts & ends with nothing but disadvantages in the fight he is up against. He needs psuedo-stealth to close the distance, to create a disturbance; to use his power. Trickster & Huntress have lullabyes because their powers have limitless range & can down theoretically at any distance. Deathslinger can do neither.
While Trickster gets buffs Deathslinger gets nerfed, I can't help but see a double standard
Trickster seems to have a lot going for him as of late. He reads like the worst of all worlds and frankly in some ways, as a ranged killer, I feel that statement is warranted. Trickster has little thought into his use of his ability. The consequences for a missed knife have never been less severe with the reduction of 8 to 6 for an injured state. He has 44 knives, enough to cause roughly 7 injured states, or 3 downs & 1 injure before needing to reload.This does not even factoring in main event which creates a limitless supply during its time. In exchange trickster moves at 96.5% while firing his knives and a 4 second (likely 2 with Iron Maiden) pit stop every now and again. He has ranged down potential for realistically 1 down 1 injure to 2 downs realistically speaking and he still moves faster than Deathslinger while doing so.
How about the skill involved? Can anyone seriously argue someone quick scoping for a 14 meter shot around geometry or through the corn took less effort, game knowledge & prediction ability than holding M1 in the general direction of the person you are chasing? Whats the consequence for a missed knife versus the consequence for a missed Harpoon shot? In every way Deathslinger is punished, Trickster has genuinely nothing but upsides by comparison.
People might argue again, that its about counterplay, but what counterplay is there to a short loop with trickster slowly chipping you to death? How about Main Event camping a hook? Do you realistically have counterplay despite the fact that you can visualize the element of your chagrin?
Trickster by all accounts in comparison to the Huntress & Deathslingers Yin-Yang of good balance is a killer who gets all of their positives with none of their drawbacks, and worst of all, has a very high skill floor with a very low cieling. I am not hear to start a fight with Trickster fans or anything like that, but please acknowledge what you do isn't comparable at all to the effort involved for a Deathslinger, let alone a Huntress main.
It feels like were trending towards mediocrity with changes like this. Whats the point of investing years worth of time into a killer who isn't even on anyone's radar, just to have him demolished because someone somewhere feels his gimmick is a bummer for SWF's group, despite the fact that the killer by all statistical accounts performed fine?
What are my alternatives, if any, to Deathslinger as he is now?
Preferably, I'd simply ask for a revert. I think the numbers and philosophy of use, with very reasonable counterplay to beating DS are enough. But if changes must be made, please consider what I have told you hear when I make these suggestions:
1) Make the Redeemer a LAR with multiple shots before a reload. It'll take testing and tweaking to find the right number, somewhere between 3-5 shots. Animation speed for a miss / chain recall can be super accelerated (animation wise) until the time of actual reload in which case the already existing slowdowns will take effect. This would allow for breathing room to still make those awesome shots at range, allow for survivors demands at counterplay as he still has to ADS, and encourage development and risk taking. If simply x50% speed of animation is to clunky, well, as a LAR, just add a new animation of slapping a new harpoon & chain in each shot. A meager time penalty is fine before having to load up, relative to the shots expended, with the max being the same as already existing time penalties.
2) Either restore or incorporate something original for his terror radius. 24 meters in my opinion, was perfect, but if you want to do something interesting, make his terror radius a stackable for each set of seconds (lets say 3-5) he's not in chase. Make it like furtive chase or some such non-sense, with each set of time reducing his terror radius from 32 by 4 meters each stack up to 4 stacks (16 meter reduction), and lose all stacks in a chase. This gives him an edge if he's being W-Gamed or Spinechilled too long so that he can actually ambush and use his power.
3) If neither of these changes can be accommodated, then Chain Break has every right to down at range.
These are merely my thoughts after several hundred hours in the game, most of them invested in my Favorite Killer. I apologize for any spelling errors or typos, I'll be working to sort those out here shortly.
I would love to hear the communities thoughts.
I really would, thank you for reading.
Edit: I have made a few corrections in both typos & calculations.
My main problem is not that he got weaker, because of ADS fake nerf, or bigger TR. He was always worse Huntress.
My problem is quick-scope nerf, I would still play him without that nerf.
I play FPS games a lot, so Deathslinger was interesting killer to me, because of quick-scope. He was unique for it compare to other ranged killers. He just isn't interesting anymore.
He is clumsy, less fun and worse Huntress. He has limitations that other ranged killers don't, so I don't get why he couldn't have something good they don't.
His ADS is so bad. That reduced FOV and sensitivity is just terrible. It wasn't an issue before, because of quick-scope.
Current Deathslinger can be viable only if you use zoning a lot, which I hate and find super boring. So he gets hard NO from me after over 200 hours just on him.
Playing Trickster as ranged killer and he is actually quite fun.
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@SleepyWillo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2595607#Comment_2595607
Killers camp and tunnel without a survivor unhooking in front of the killer.
If the killer is face camping the survivors HAVE to unhook in front of the killer.
Killers can and do prevent survivors from taking protection hits to tunnel someone out early.
Getting multiple downs isnt difficult - especially on killers with high snowball potential...
Depends on what killer you play. If you think any killer can prevent protective hits, then you are not good at it.
It's funny to see how all killers tunnel and camp and survivors are so poor players, when it's quite rare. It seems that common, just because survivors don't know what is actual tunnel -> if you don't try to prevent it, it's not tunnel.
getting multiple downs is not difficult? Avarage chase is around 30-40 seconds, unless you are potato, during that time you can easily recover.
Unless it's Oni, or Twins...
Again, depends on who is the killer.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2595564#Comment_2595564
Good survivor perks should probably help them recover from mistakes, since they're the side of the game that can actually be completely removed from the match by making mistakes. Not saying these aren't strong perks or that there's no reason to consider nerfing/tweaking them, but there's a weird obsession with "earning" effects and "fixing mistakes" in this community.
DS is perfectly fair after its changes, BT is a very balanced and reasonable addition to the game, and Unbreakable only works once so it's more like a resource than anything else. "Second chance" is a perfectly reasonable perk type so long as the game is balanced around them, which is where I think most of the issues come from.
I am not saying it's not balanced.
I just disagree with his comment that survivor perks have to play and killer gets carried :D
It's funny when in next comment, he said that killer needs to play too...
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@SleepyWillo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2595564#Comment_2595564
getting camped/tunnelled or slugged isnt a survivor "mistake".
"Earn" those effects by playing the game normally...? At most you can say that about Pop and kicking the most progressed gen. Even then sometimes its better to let a poorly placed gen go to ensure a good 3 gen from the start...
Unhooking in front of a killer is mistake. Get multiple downs is a mistake. Not taking protective hits is a mistake.
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@SleepyWillo said:
Theres a difference between the meta perks on both sides.
Survivor Meta Perks: Needed to actually play the game.
Killer Meta Perks: Provides pressure for you.
Killer Meta Perks: Have to earn those effects (Pop, Surge, BBQ etc.)
Survivor Meta Perks: Fix their mistakes (DS, BT, Unbreakable etc.)
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@DaWeezerd said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2595362#Comment_2595362
And actually making No Mither a good perk.
Nah, I wanna keep some meme perks...
I don't get why it's not 100% reduction tho
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@dspaceman20 said:
Imo I think ita probably best to nerf ever survivor and killer meta perk there is. What do you think?
Best course of action is to buff every non-meta perk. That will piss off least players and everyone will be happy testing new perks
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@slendermansmoom said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/290590/validation
i hate when it starts the grab animation and then it cancels and makes you swing
Yeah, I have posts about that too :D
It actually lost me a game twice already. I don't get why it's not guaranteed hit.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2595327#Comment_2595327
I mean if it would be possible for DBD. Because with a delay after any interaction, the game would probably feel very clunky.
Current version is not really better and killers are going to see way more often
but it's going to be rare for survivors now, so it's fine
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@vacaman said:
Killers still have a killrate above 50% so expect even more nerfs until it's "balanced" to this number since it's this what seems to be their idea of balance. Last stats they posted it seemed that killrate went down by quite a bit but its still far from 50%.
There is little problem that this number is boosted quite a lot by how game works.
Even if you are bad killer, you usually can secure 1 kill. So it's not 0-4, so 2 is balanced....It's 1-4 in most games
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2595134#Comment_2595134
Right, however the numbers actually line up, something along those lines.
I would show grade as +/- MMR, so everyone can see how matchmaking worked and show exact MMR as personal info
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@dugman said:
I don’t mind the grades other than that there’s really no reason to see your opponent’s grades after a match since they’re not used for matchmaking at all. I’d prefer if instead of showing the grade it showed a roughly matchmaking rating bracket identified (e.g. divide the SBMM ratings into 5% or 10% brackets and give that rough percentile bracket on the endgame screen). That would give a more accurate impression of where the game believes you and your opponents were skill-wise.
Easy
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2594875#Comment_2594875
So when they decide to raise the MMR cap, because too many people are above 1900, what then?
They could do it on 13th, where everyone is used to rank change, so everyone's rank will be changed based on new softcap values.
Still not an issue...
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2595031#Comment_2595031
But his idea would nerf Boons more than yours. How is that a Survivor mindset?
Yeah, I have no idea...
There is just no reason to keep that totem for a killer, because that totem is useless for killer at that point -> already found.
It's not like my idea would nerf killer's side, they just have motivation to do, what they already are supposed to do. There is no downside for killers in my idea :D
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@playhard said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2594915#Comment_2594915
lol are you survivor main, you know killer objective is become more and more than survivor which so monoton and easy game now.
Killer now have objective which really ruin gameplay, you need to find stretchmark, breaking the walls, find boon totems. damn i think you really never play killer.
I play killer like 90% of the time.
My problem is that boon totems are super easy to use, because you don't really have to think about how and when to use it.
Killer also has 0 motivation to leave gens and get rid of it, because they can do it again.
If I will be able to destroy it, then it will work same as other totem perks (Inner healing etc.) and survivors will have to make some effort in using it.
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@tippy2k2 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2594542#Comment_2594542
That's...not a bad idea
I feel myself getting actively tilted and frustrated dealing with this BS and obviously if it happens a few times, it'll just keep happening in that game. Just call it getting BHVR'ed and go chill in the corner and watch funny cat videos or whatever it is these kids do today on The Internet Dot Com
My logic here is, that when it happened twice with 25 ms, that is most likely survivor's thing and it will most likely happen again, so why should I be the one frustrated?
I got ######### by server, so they will not enjoy rest of the game.
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Or just let me destroy that totem, easy fix.
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@alex511 said:
It's the worst rift so far imo, the charms are better than the skins, it's themed around Yun-Jin and Trickster but who gets two cool skins? Feng, while Yun-Jin gets one bad skin that looks like a leftover from the summer rift that was taken out because it's too ugly. Why didn't they give her a glamorous skin in line with her lore? Also the Nexus ranger would have been great on Yui but no, also third clown skin in a row... and why are they Halloween themed when it's just one night while the rift is three month, i guess everybody will totally fancy pumpkin skins unlocked on xmas.
Trickster skin is ugly too but at least the weapon fits to his black suit skin but why on earth is the bat sized like an airfilled toybat for children? And of course a generic Dwight skin number 26 that no one asked for and yet another Ace skin... it's a bad rift, only skins that i like is Feng's, Plague's and Elodie's if it hadn't a backpack, can we please stop with backpack skins? Guess no. One thing i noticed through the rifts when they give you a recolor of an auric cell killer skin they love to not give you the weapon just a cheaper one or from another skin to make sure you'll want to buy the weapon with real money, yeah thanks.
Rant over.
I really like new Rift.
Best is Feng, Jeff jacket is also good and Trickster too imo... I don't care about rest, because I don't play those.
I have definetly seen worse rifts.
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@OmegaXII said:
I stopped playing since half a year ago because all the bullshit killers have to face (Yes I’m killer main). I was totally sick of it.
I just came here to see some updates.. holy they’re not good.. it seems like the game is now even more unfun for killers than before. I don’t have the slightest desire to play this game after seeing the updates.
Never felt so good to leave the game i loved before in my life. It feels like a relieve for not stuck in playing this game, to be honest.
PS: Just want to share my feelings here.. please don’t hurt me :). If anyone here happens to feel the same burden of playing killer, i advice you to take a break. It totally worths it (even if it feels bad for first or second week)
Nah, I like to hurt myself...
But Deathslinger is just too much even for me.
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@GannTM said:
You also have to realize that survivors have to go out of their way to replenish their items. It takes time to go to a locker.
It's not like it wastes more than those 12 seconds. You don't leave gen for it, you get into locker on your way to next gen and you almost always have some lockers nearby.
It's not really worth going for those 33%, that can be maybe used for sabo, but 99% and 66% is worth it.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2594835#Comment_2594835
It's a softcap, which means it's uncapped. They can change that 1900 cap as and when necessary, so how do you assign values for everything below?
There's a soft minumum too, of 1100, which everyone starts at, but you can drop below it.
So there's a tentative 800 range, that can change.
Is 1800 a "Iridescent III"?
What about when the softcap gets raised to 2200? What's an "Iridescent III" then?
So you have:
bottom softcap 800
starting value 1100
top softcap 1900
realistic limit is supposed to be 3000
SBMM really doesn't care that much if it is above / below softcaps, so there is no need to show it in grades, I would show it as personal info. I can't be bothered to type grades, so I will just use ranks instead.
Those numbers doesn't have to be written as a number, they can be variables in code, so it's not like you have to change it every time MMR changes in values... It would change based on current softcaps