Devil_hit11
Devil_hit11
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3490217#Comment_3490217
The 3 gens on the new version can be bad I’ll admit, but it sounds like BHVR wants to implement a blanket solution for that.
I didn’t like the old one being so big on both sides. Big maps are bad for killer in general, and because it was so large and confusing for survivors it often led to people being left on hook in my games (because survivors who didn’t know the map couldn’t figure out how to get to hooks) and it was also too difficult to find generators with too many places to look. Although I eventually learned the old map’s layout (though it took me a while), several of my solo queue teammates never did. I also didn’t like how the front exit gate was a dead end for survivors, the outside area being accessible now was a major improvement imo.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3490282#Comment_3490282
Maybe in terms of surface area. But because it’s an indoor map you often needed to go through several hallways and/or take multiple turns increasing the distance you need to travel. Going from point A on the far end of east side to point B on the far end of west side simply took too long and splitting the map into two solved this issue.
i liked the challenge. that map took me longest time to learn out of any dbd map. the totem spots took forever to remember. the optimal looping paths, the generators. that map reminded me for when I was new player in dbd. I kinda wish all dbd maps were like that but maybe the game for survivor would be too hard.
it’s an indoor map you often needed to go through several hallways and/or take multiple turns increasing the distance you need to travel. Going from point A on the far end of east side to point B on the far end of west side simply took too long and splitting the map into two solved this issue.
You don't pressure entire map as killer. you can 3 gen the map. by shrinking the map, they made the 3 gen too notorious for survivor to play around. I feel like I am winning too easily on the map. that is not something that killer usually say about maps. usually they complain map is too survivor sided. not killer sided.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3490396#Comment_3490396
Lucky Break is versatile in a way SS isn’t. And it really does circle back to the boon being in a small, finite range. You can’t guarantee that you’ll be in its radius when you need the effect. But Lucky Break can work anywhere.
the thing is that boon:shadowstep can allow you to stealth before killer ever finds you. It also works when your healthy unlike lucky break. Lucky break has limited duration and you will run out of the duration if you stay injured. but yes. it comes down to finite range for why boon are not good.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3489291#Comment_3489291
Team Eternal missed around 40+ Skill Checks the entire match. Are you going to say that it is a skill issue when the best Survivor team there is missed Skill Checks?
Also again, this is ignoring the fact that they were using Shotgun Speakers, which is an addon that removes the notification noise for Skill Checks. Shotgun Speakers and Adi Valente Issue 1 are both addons that are insanely problematic for Skull Merchant, Ive been saying this since Day 1 and everyone seems to ignore it.
no i am saying that missing skill-checks is survivor mistakes. missing load of skill-check is better gen regression then any killer regression perk in the game. Survivors are better at regressing generators than killer is at regressing them with any perk. The survivors are the best gen defence.
@BlightedDolphin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3490360#Comment_3490360
The problem isn't that she could've won, it's that she can play around the 1 hour server shut down. No other killer can. Yes Blight can win before 50 minutes, so could this Skull Merchant player, the issue is that they WANTED to play around 1 hour shutdown and they could. No other killer can. The Skull Merchant in this game could have won, but they wanted to win through the server shutdown. THE TALKING POINT OF THIS MATCH IS THAT A KILLER CAN HOLD A GAME HOSTAGE FOR 50 MINUTES NOT WHETHER 3 GENNING IS STRONG!
As for your points.
Do you think killer had tracking problem when playing that 3 gen?
Yes actually. They spent the first half or so only patrolling 2 gens because they could see that no one was on the 3rd one. As soon the survivors decided to pressure all 3 gens the killer began to struggle. If they couldn't see where everyone was, they wouldn't know which gen was currently being working on and how many survivors were there, so they would have had to patrol all 3. She also got the opportunity to chase survivors occasionally because she knew only 1 person was working on a gen. If it was Blight he would have no idea if a gen had 1 or 3 survivors on it and it would force more pressure on him.
One shot
First off, yes Alchemist Ring should be nerfed or reworked, that add on is also problematic for a bunch of reasons. Second, Alchemist Ring is not the same thing as being one shot.
Even if the chase was short, it's still longer than being one shot. Also you would be able to remain on the gen longer before running AND lead him further away, allowing your team to work on gens a bit longer. And this doesn't take into account if he happens to miss. Then he is screwed.
Oblivious
She got no value from it because they were in a well co-ordinated SWF and called out her exact location. Yes you are right, in this game that add on would've been better, which is further proof that Skull Merchant is worse than Blight in this regard because she held it for 50 minutes and she wasn't even fully optimised. If they used that add on, they might have reached the 1 hour mark.
No one disarmed drones because they couldn't. She replaced them every couple of seconds and when they did get the chance, she was so close that they couldn't disarm it in time and had to run.
Oblivious wasn't an issue in this match, but in a normal match it would have been.
Healing
The reason they didn't heal was because they were Exposed the entire game. No point in healing if you are still one shot. They had to play safer because they were basically all injured from the start of the 3 gen because the drones Exposed them. It would not be the same for other killers, as you are not Exposed. Of course you probably shouldn't be healing constantly, but everyone being one shot made it more difficult.
Unnerving Presence
Literally no one uses this perk outside of impossible skill check Doctor or low MMR because it's not a good perk. Yes it would make Overcharge/Oppression harder to hit, but you also give survivors more skill checks to hit and good survivors that can hit Great Skill Checks reliably would welcome this because it would just give them more progress. The Blight would be better off with Call of Brine or literally any other perk not revolving around 3 gens so he could win earlier.
The only time Unnerving Presence would be a problem is if the killer had a way to further make skill checks harder to hit like Doctor or Skull Merchant. So even in this scenario you built, Skull Merchant is still a bigger issue.
TL;DR - The issue is that she can hold a game for over an hour, not that she could've beaten a pro team. Just because they are the best doesn't mean they should win every game, but NO killer should be able to hold someone hostage for an hour.
The only time Unnerving Presence would be a problem is if the killer had a way to further make skill checks harder to hit like Doctor or Skull Merchant. So even in this scenario you built, Skull Merchant is still a bigger issue.
except skull merchant cannot use that perk because her drones provide undetectable which is anti-synergy with terror radius based perks. that is why she has those add-on's namely shotgun speaker and Adi Valente Issue 1 to do that.
you also give survivors more skill checks to hit and good survivors that can hit Great Skill Checks reliably would welcome this because it would just give them more progress.
I believe otz made a video about this but you leave a generator, you have like 1/5 chance to get skill-check that will explode gen. in 3 gens, you are constantly leaving gens in and out. more skill-check chance is not good because of leaving gens that auto-explode. Also, you should explain why the survivors missed 40 skill-checks worth of regression if you think the skill-check is so easy to hit.
the issue is that she can hold a game for over an hour, not that she could've beaten a pro team.
She is holding 3 gen for an hour because of generator regression through missing skill-checks and tight gen spread from map layout/design. She is capitalizing off survivor mistakes through perk design and abusing map design. despite that, The killer is still losing. I will let you judge if the game is survivor sided or killer sided.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3490389#Comment_3490389
Fair point. Eh. All of the Boons are outclassed by individualized perks now (Lucky Break, Inner Healing, Exhaustion Perks, Made for This, etc). Boons can be situationally alright in SWF but even then they are usually just a time sink. A waste.
i think boon:shadowstep is better then lucky break but it is worse then distortion. its perk that is under-tuned because it is missing few effects. the two effect it is missing is ability to remove blood marks(only no mither does this) and it is missing 100% iron will to be a good perk. shadowstep could have game-changing effect, but it is least useful out of the boons blessings.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3490380#Comment_3490380
The issue with DT and MFT though is that DT has a finite range. Even if you managed to keep the killer in a 24-meter area for a while they’d still eventually bloodlust you down. Tbh though I didn’t see the killer who faced that person with DT and MFT fall for that. Didn’t look like he (it was a Pyramid Head) struggled at all to catch & down the survivor.
Frankly, I don’t mind if Boons fade away. They only exist because killers wanted survivors to have some other objective that didn’t involve gens. Now that survivors aren’t messing with them, they can focus on completing gens.
that is general issue with all boons. they have too little radius to be used. the problem is that if you buff their radius to good level such as 40 meters, then killer will complain about fast healing from COH and you will get more complaints of MFT+DT haste stacking then you do currently. so boon are under-tuned so killer do not complain about boons like they did in the previous COH era.
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@Ayodam said:
I’ve seen Dark Theory once or twice since MFT became a thing, but I don’t really see Boons much anymore. I do see more players running Inner Healing, though. At least there isn’t friction between those who like(d) booning & those who like cleansing totems anymore.
dark theory can be ok because your teammates might be running MFT so it has synergy. it might save them in a chase at the cost of you setting up a boon, so slower gens. the other boons are bad and not worth the time.
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universal problems of killer is usually address by universal perks like how bamboozle addresses god-windows by blocking the window. so perhaps we will see universal haste perk.
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@BlightedDolphin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3489899#Comment_3489899
I did say what my issues with her were in my other post.
- She has eyes on everyone at all times, which makes breaking the 3 gen ridiculously hard
- Every has to play with 1 health state
- She can bypass the hack period by simply replacing the drone as she has no cool down
- Overcharge was only an issue this match because of Shotgun Speaker. They missed a lot of normal skill checks as well because of this add on which dragged the game out.
- They had to play the entire game Oblivous because of an add on. Without comms this would’ve have been near impossible to beat.
Yes other killers can 3 gen as well, but her entire kit amplifies all the issues with.
I agree with what you said about maps. They let the killer pick the map and he chose one with an insane 3 gen. Had it been a map like Mother’s Dwelling, he would have struggled. But the fact that a one killer has to ability to hold a game for an hour is stupid and should be addressed.
Yes Blight can also hold that 3 gen there well, but there’s a few reasons why it’s not as bad with him
- You can heal, you aren’t one shot all game so you don’t have to play super safe
- You aren’t Oblivious, so you can actually know where he is without being in a well co-ordinated SWF
- Overcharge and Oppression aren’t that big of a deal without Shotgun Speaker. Without this add on, the game wouldn’t be dragged out nearly as long.
- He can’t see you at all times
- Yes he probably would win, but he wouldn’t be able to drag it out for 50 minutes, which is the problem everyone is talking about.
blight does not need to drag out games to 50 minutes. he wins faster than that. 50 minute games is base-kit m1 killer problem. Skull merchant base-kit chase is not strong enough to eliminate survivors out of the match if the survivor play smart with body-blocking to the level of team eternal.
She has eyes on everyone at all times, which makes breaking the 3 gen ridiculously hard
Explain why this is talking point. the gens on torment creek are extremely close to each other. Do you think killer had tracking problems when playing that 3 gen? The survivor knew exactly where the killer was and killer knew where survivors were.
Every has to play with 1 health state
This another talking point that makes little sense. Blight has add-on called alchemist ring that refreshes all tokens upon hitting a lethal rush. You make very little distance to benefit from health-states. Its not exactly 1 shot but you can almost get 2 hit-combo'd in 3 gen like torment creek.
They had to play the entire game Oblivious because of an add on. Without comms this would’ve have been near impossible to beat.
The oblivious was not effective at ambushing the survivors in that game. Both killer and survivor knew each other were for 95% of the match. The ending of the game involved no one disarming drones and everyone ignoring drones. She would got more value out of Adi Valentine issue 2 which is add-on that decreases skill-check size by 20% when inside a drone's radius. This would make survivors miss more skill-checks leading to more regression, so the build could been more optimized. your only valid point is skill-check perks synergize with drone's. Killers do have a universal perk to make overcharge skill-checks harder. that perk is unnerving presence.
You can heal, you aren’t one shot all game so you don’t have to play super safe
You aren’t Oblivious, so you can actually know where he is without being in a well co-ordinated SWF
Overcharge and Oppression aren’t that big of a deal without Shotgun Speaker. Without this add on, the game wouldn’t be dragged out nearly as long.
He can’t see you at all times
Everyone was injured after like 45 minutes because 3 gen would be impossible to break. it was not worth it to heal. The time efficiency to heal was not worth it in that particular match. It likely would be same with other killers. Not being oblivious likely does not matter because blight moves so fast that you cannot react to such speed. Overcharge and Oppression would not be a big deal however all killer can use unnerving presence to make overcharge/oppression skill-checks smaller. You only need to replace sloppy butcher with unnerving presence for other killers to have similar-level of skill-check difficulty. The 3 gen area is so small on torment creek that killer does not need to see you to know where you are in that particular 3 gen setup.
TL:DR None of these blight points matter in the context of that match.
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@mikewelk said:
Most killer mains would cry and solo queue wouldn't inflate kill rates as much as it used to.
killer would adapt if base-kit aura reading was put into the game. they would already play vs kindred and other teammate aura perks. soloq perk variety would be nice.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3490272#Comment_3490272
...What?
No, I want her to be able to set up the drones she has and actually use Undetectable because it doesn't fade out as quickly. I also only want that to be an option; as I said, Skull Merchant's power is modular and versatile. I want her to be able to do that if the player wants her to, and I want her to be better at chase, better at utilising claw traps, and just a little weaker at protecting generators and hexes.
You're aware she doesn't have to place her drones directly on top of generators, right? If you're playing her for chase even on the live servers, you're usually looking to place them between generators, and in important structures.
I do not think she is designed to be stealth killer. it would be weird for her to be better stealth killer then wraith. weird case of power-creep.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3490261#Comment_3490261
I'm not sure I'm following your point, I'm sorry, I'm gonna have to ask for some clarification.
So, you say that there's no point buffing her stealth because it didn't help the SM three-gen, but I don't want her to use the stealth to three-gen. I want her to use it like a regular stealth killer, across the entire match, to sneak around and get the drop on survivors. I don't want her to use it in a tight area where everyone obviously knows where she is because she's alternating between three close-together generators.
Why is it relevant, then, that it wasn't any help in the three-gen video?
so you want skull merchant to have 8 drones base-kit? With 8 drones base-kit, you can put a drone on all 7 generator and inflict oblivious on every generator. that buff her stealth but now you can 7 gen the entire map. I think your better off playing wraith or a killer that has undetectable status. at this point, I am confused.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3490255#Comment_3490255
...Yes. Undetectable/Oblivious has a low effect on 3-gens in general. That is why I want to buff it, and the other things that Skull Merchant can do that isn't 3-genning.
I am not aiming to improve Skull Merchant in areas that are relevant to that video. I want her to be worse at the things that video showed.
oblivious and undetectable was at its max-power level on that match. there is no point in buffing it because it is already at its peak power-level. The survivors countered nearly perfectly with speculator gen-rotations. it was impressive play. the legit only aspect that they did wrong in that match was missing skill-checks which extended the match. nothing else. everything else was near perfect.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3490164#Comment_3490164
I explained why- it stands to reason that 3-genning typically involves leveraging the threat of Exposed, and in addition, I have personally found the Exposed to be a finnicky and unreliable mechanic that doesn't really mesh with the better ways of playing Skull Merchant. Removing it should, ideally, cut down on your average 3-gen match, and it'll allow things like stealth and other builds to be more viable because that threat isn't there to make it overpowered.
I wouldn't put too much stock in that Otz video, by the way. Even setting aside the usual caveat of it only being top tier players, your other comment here makes it seem like you think my proposed changes should help in that scenario and, uh, no, I want to prevent that scenario. I want Skull Merchant to be better at doing other things, and worse at doing specifically that.
Though, for the record, mizark is right in saying that those players were probably staying injured because of the Exposed. They're oneshot either way, so why waste time with healing up?
(Also she, not he.)
they were staying exposed because healing is too time consuming vs that type of gen-lock. the map layout was to unfavourable for survivors to heal efficiently and progress generator. as a result, the team committed to not heal and ignore drones. Exposed and undetectable/oblivious had a low impact on the match outcome. The bulk of that match was kicking gens, missing skill-checks and team eternal working out how to break the gen-lock on that map. torment creek is like farm map. farm maps loops are unfun to play on as killer so 3 gen is recommended.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3490164#Comment_3490164
Everyone is injured because Exposed prevents any value from them being healthy. Disarming drones is such a bad idea, they are better off staying in the drone zones. Since they have to stay in the drone zones (as the Killer can place drones on the same area), it doesn't matter if they are healthy or injured, so healing up is a waste of time.
If drones, once disabled, left a phantom zone that prevented the drone of being plopped down over the same area (until the shoulder tracker is removed from the Survivor who hacked it), then Survivors would actually have a reason to disarm drones. Arguably the tracker should function similar to Victor at that point, where the Killer can recall it after a certain time (the current 45s? autodisable timer), or the Survivor can keep the power to deny the Killer the ability to use it on others, at the cost of giving her haste, and making pallets unsafe for them to vault.
you do not need to teach me or explain anything. I already understand how the gameplay loop works. i am just trying to understand @jesterkind point of view. For example he says to buff stealth. everyone in the 53 minute skull merchant match was permanently oblivious due to brown noise generator add-on and skull merchant undetectable for big portion of the match while kicking generators. The stealth did not help skull merchant win that 53 minute war of attrition. buffing stealth achieves nothing.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
Please no. Current RPD is by no means perfect but it’s far better than what we had before. The original RPD was way too big.
i prefered old RPD. it was more scary and more challenging to know where you are in the map as survivor. current RPD with new shrink size is another 3 gen horror map for survivor to play against.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3490179#Comment_3490179
Maybe. But even then, they made it so much worse. I'd rather play against Knight every once in a while than having to play against even 1 more Dull Merchant, if you catch my drift. And I reckon I'm not alone with that opinion.
everyone has their personal dislikes. 3 gen killers is a possible dislike. mori's or slugging is another possible dislike. either way, sadako is not looking good from PTB.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3489915#Comment_3489915
It's going to be much worse! They basically incentivise slugging one survivor until they either bleed out or they finally get enough hits to fully condemn them. Otz tried it on the PTB and while it wasn't exactly overpowered, it was still better than anything else she could do.
they nerfing sadako because survivor said she was unfun to play against. Now she can have twin-level pick-rate after the changes.
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@jesterkind said:
...Or, at least, trying to. It's a difficult task, but I think I've come up with some decent first steps to massively lower her 3-gen potential while bolstering the other strategies she already has.
Though, as a disclaimer, this rework was thought up under the assumption that 3-genning itself is going to be looked at separately. That I don't know how to fix, but it's clearly a problem on more killers than just the Skull Merchant, even if she's the best at doing it. So, then, our goal here is to bring her more in line with the rest of the roster when it comes to defending 3-gens, while making her stronger in other areas so the average player can perhaps start to see what else she's capable of.
I typically prefer to avoid dramatic overhauls to killer powers a la Freddy's rework, but I did stray a little close to it this time. There's one change in particular that is pretty dramatic, but I believe that it's justifiable and I'll do my best to justify it. With that out of the way, I suggest the following:
- Remove Lock On. While I would recommend keeping the Exposed effect that comes from failing or otherwise interrupting the drone hacking minigame, I don't believe that survivors should become passively Exposed while standing in an Active Drone's area. I believe this because I find it to be inconsistent and annoying when doing anything other than 3-gen setups, and in those setups it's the passive pressure that pushes survivors to waste time on drones while progress is eaten away from their generators. This change is dramatic and undeniably a nerf, but I recommend some other changes to accompany it.
- Reshuffle her addons, and rework a few. I put this second because the Skull Merchant's biggest barrier to her more reasonable builds is that they rely relatively heavily on expensive purple addons, like the one for inflicting Hindered, the one for revealing auras, and the one for giving yourself Haste and action speed bonuses. Those addons, or at least addons with those general effects even if they have to be a little weaker, should be lower rarity and more numerous, while certain addons like the silent skillchecks addon and the Oblivious addon should be reworked entirely to do something else as they're bordering on useless if you aren't 3-genning. The Skull Merchant's biggest strength in terms of core design is how versatile and modular her power is, and her addon design should better reflect that by not locking the more active, chase-focused effects behind purple-tier price points.
- Increase the Claw Trap's battery timer. This may sound like a nerf, but I believe it'd overall be more of a buff to the Skull Merchant, while strengthening counterplay against her at the same time. That may be paradoxical, but I view it like this: Because the timer on the Claw Traps is relatively short, it's difficult for the Skull Merchant to actually use the benefits they apply (either basekit or from addons), and it's equally hard for survivors to keep drones away from specific areas if the Skull Merchant doesn't actually have to come chase them and force it off them. If it weren't for her Haste, I'd recommend making them permanent until the survivor is downed or vaults a pallet, but as it stands I think just increasing the timer by a noticeable amount would do. Another strong element of the Skull Merchant is that her counterplay should allow her to be flexible and adapt, bringing a shifting dynamic to the trial, but that's difficult to achieve with her live balance.
- Buff her stealth. The Skull Merchant has a stealth element to her power! You'd be forgiven for not realising that, considering how low the numbers are... without the threat of Exposed to make this too scary, I think her Undetectable could be buffed such that it kicks in quicker, and lingers for much longer after leaving the drone's radius. This would give the Skull Merchant even more versatility to weaponise, by making stealth builds genuinely viable on her.
So, then, what would these changes achieve? From my view, they'd bring her 3-gen capability down to basically what any killer can achieve with the right perks. If she's patrolling a 3-gen, she'll only get the Haste that tracking survivors achieves, and those survivors could choose to simply ignore the active drones in favour of working on the generators because she still has to walk over there and harass them off- and since they aren't Exposed, they can freely take a hit without going down.
On the flipside, though, a Skull Merchant who cares about unlocking the character's real potential would have much more freedom to experiment and tinker, because her power would have more versatility and would be empowered when her drones and claw traps are used in a more strategic, skilful manner. Drones would function better as traps to steer survivors towards, they'd function better as bait to lean into the Claw Traps more, they'd function as a web she can weave between while Undetectable, and they'd function less as simple generator defence, while still being able to defend things in general with a little work.
These changes would just be a start. Skull Merchant herself would surely still need looking at after this, and 3-gens in general absolutely would, but it would be a solid foundation to build from in my opinion.
one question. why is the exposed a problem? Watching otz video on competitive skull merchant game. Just look UI for survivors.
everyone is injured. The expose is not doing anything in 45-50 minutes. everyone is already exposed. something else to notice is that nobody has claw trap at 45-50 minutes.
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@VaporLion said:
Does Vigil work on Skull Merchant & Ghost Face exposed status effect or does it only lower the timer if the timer is visible in the UI ( The red circle-timer around the exposed ) ?
only works on perks that apply exposed status effect with a timer. examples are make your choice, hex:haunted grounds, dragon grip, hubris and starstruck. also applies to add-on that inflicted exposed for specific duration. examples are like dredge wooden plank add-on or nemesis iridescent umbrella badge.
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I like playing against good players if I have decent chance to win. facing baby survivors is boring because you win all the time but playing weak killer vs strong survivors when your playing weaker killer means you will lose all the time.
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@Clockwork_Enigma said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3488771#Comment_3488771
That's the speed in each tier. 3% (tier 1), 5% (tier 2) and 7% (tier 3). The movement speed itself should NOT be as rewarding as it is and trying to overcommit to a chase should be discouraged heavily.
20% is brutal strength. survivor will still get to the next loop. You can watch tru3's wraith video where he showcases wraith with 60% break speed. survivors still got to the next loop with 3x the bonus. you could try anniversary pallet break as base-kit.
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3490066#Comment_3490066
I haven't played or played against Hag since the change honestly so I'm not sure I just remember having my own 20-25 minute Hag games back when she was peak lol.
That being said I can't imagine a Clown holding that 3 gen for the same amount of time the SM did or come anywhere close. Part of the equation is the skill checks were silent due to the shotgun speakers and how much lost progress that added up to and add in the fact how much the clown player would have to stop and reload Clown is holding that 3 gen 8-10 minutes tops not 53 minutes.
clown 3 gen is weaker then skull merchant 3 gen. he has no 3 gen add-on's. he can still 3 gen. Just not as well because he is weaker. perhaps someone should do a torment creek 3 gen clown build with pinky finger and cheap gin bottle to test viability of 3 gen clown. the same thing can be said about hag. Hag moves at 110% m/s. she cannot chase people. she needs survivors to run into her traps and she plays territorial. territorial is 3 gen focused just like skull merchant. you get hag web-traps instead of skull merchant drones.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3490080#Comment_3490080
You are...aware that other Killers don't need Wesker's Infection to tunnel?
He already has a good enough power to tunnel effectively.
Also, Wesker can't hold Survivors until the game ends lol
he doesn't need to. you'll be dead before that occurs.
@nars said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3490080#Comment_3490080
or, and hear me out here, tunneling is still possible without infection
yes but it relies on survivor playing poorly in the chase.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3490059#Comment_3490059
WHAT
This literally just stops him from having one of the best tunneling abilities in the game.
yes and it encourages him to find a different strategy to beat top-tier survivors.
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@Pulsar said:
I think we can nerf his Infection by pausing it after being unhooked until that Survivor does a Conspicuous Action or uses an Item. I haven't seen anyone have an issue with this yet.
Other than that, I believe he's completely fine.
all your encouraging is for wesker to 3 gen to get use out of the infection and deplete sprays. your change is encouraging 3 gen skull merchant unhealthy gameplay.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3489975#Comment_3489975
I think she had plenty of opportunities that she either didn't recognize or didn't care to take.
she didn't have opportunities because knightlight/petro body-blocked for Dan to protect him from dying. if skull merchant tried to chase Dan outside 3 gens, she would lose 3 gen faster.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3489965#Comment_3489965
They were 10 minutes off of winning via server closes.
i know that. if you use slightly different perks, skull merchant could tunnel dan out and create a 3vs1 to do server-close win.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3489958#Comment_3489958
The SM's goal was the win via server close.
They specifically didn't try to hook people.
Did you watch the match? Not all of it, I know people don't have that sort of time, but some of it at least?
i watched all of it. 4 man server-close win condition was weakened specifically to prevent that. you need to win by hooking survivors. you can still server close but you need to kill 1 survivor to do that.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3489925#Comment_3489925
Because it shows that even an average SM who has only played for 800 hours is able to hold the most skilled, comp death squad SWF in a 50 minute match and nearly win.
If you actually watch the match, you'll see that the only reason SM lost was because of inexperience. If Eternal had made one more mistake or if the SM had another 500 hours, the game would've been over.
You should care because this is an average player who uses a strategy so strong that it can lock the best players in the world for 50 minutes. How can anyone in Solo Q or even pubs SWF compete with that? They can't.
she lost because of gen kick perk nerfs. not inexperience. eruption no longer incapacitates you for 25 seconds and overcharge is weaker gen regression. also COB does not exist. I remember Ohtofu said that the reason why 3 gen are occurring was COB. survivor can break 3 gens but the 2.5% regression and those perks continue to be strong stalling game options in 3 gens. it also shows that there are many 3 gen maps that are have unfair gen spread. that is all it shows. it is not exclusive to skull merchant. you can test this out as blight and instead of losing after 50 minutes. you will win.
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@Leachy_Jr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3489738#Comment_3489738
Then you loop her so she doesnt get her power back quickly. Rewards survivors for looping her and rewards the killer for getting quick downs which is the literal definition of decent power design isnt it?
problem is that that survivor will not pick arm-traps until they are forced to pick arm-traps. that is why you are technically forced to 3 gen on skull merchant because you get no power until the survivor is forced to interact with the drones. survivors are forcing 3 gen and skull merchant player is complying with their 3 gen request.
Since you weakened geo read out and put strobes base-kit, skull merchant is weaker because geo readout is unconditional bonus where as arm-traps are conditional bonus. 3 gen merchant is incentives more since base-kit chase is weaker but 3 gen skull merchant chase stays the same or is even better potentially.
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@BlightedDolphin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3489519#Comment_3489519
I don't think that's a fair comparison. In this game, the killer lost and the survivors weren't running full meta. The comparison would work if the Nurse still won but then you'd just get "but they still won anyway so who cares!" comments, so no, I don't think people would be freaking out.
I think the main reason people aren't really taking this thread or match seriously is because it's been derailed about Overcharge discussion. Skull Merchant is an issue and this match perfectly shows why she is, but Overcharge is fine as it is. If the OP didn't add that edit I don't think thread would be as controversial.
but you never explained why she is an issue. you just said, "she is an issue". I explained why overcharge and regressing generator is a problem in 3 gens. my explanation is that killer can regress generator effectively such that they are doing 1000% regression in a match which means that survivor have to do 10+ gens to escape. that is why it can take long time to escape.
The other issue behind 3 gens is the maps. 3 gen spawn next to each other in a corner of the map like torment creek is a problem. there is too short of distance for a killer to walk around kicking gens. survivor cannot yoyo effectively to break 3 gen-locks when gens are in the corner of the map like that.
I watched the game. I do not want to say anything about builds but there is a build for skull merchant that allows you to beat eternal-type survivors. that build is overcharge, eruption, play with your food and sbtfl. the idea is that you go around hitting survivors for 10+ minutes until you hit 8 stacks of stbfl then once you hit 8 stacks stbfl. you find obsession which skull merchant found plenty of times in that 50 minute match. you charge 3 tokens of pwyf with her arm-traps and then you use stbfl+3 stack of pwyf to machine gun 1 survivor. Dan for example in that game was on death hook. If skull merchant had these perks instead of sloppy and 80 second oppression, then skull merchant could go super fast and tunnel Dan out of the game to create 3vs1. You do the same thing over and over till you kill entire team and you use the overcharge+eruption to regress gens through skill-checks and eruption proc's.
that is how you win with 3 gen strategy with an m1 killer like skull merchant. every single killer can 3 gen like that. all killer's can sit around and kick gens for 30+ minutes. The stronger killer do not need those plaster-fix anti-shift w plaster fix perks.
for example Blight can do that exact same 3 gen but he can just run 4 gen perks such as..... cob, overcharge, eruption, oppression. I think there is even add-on for that 3 gen gameplay. I believe add-on is purple add-on called soul chemical that just add overcharge checks when blight bouces near a gen. 3 gen gameplay is not exclusive to skull merchant at all. every single killer can 3 gen. the higher tier killer is, the more powerful they are at 3 gens. This is just in general. It is possible that a killer is low tier and can 3 gen but higher tier killer should win 3 gens more often. If blight was doing that exact 3 gen, he would likely win.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3489332#Comment_3489332
I'm not blaming SM, I'm saying her kit exacerbates the problem, but also exposes it: overcharge still needs nerfs.
your asking them to weaken a 6 year old perk. doctor already exposed this problem a long time ago. people just forgot about it. I also forgot that they did nerf it. it is no longer 15%. it is 14%. it got weakened by 1% from 6.7.0 patch. Like I said, skull merchant is just modern version of hostage doctor that people used to complain about.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3489328#Comment_3489328
Did you miss what I said? I didn't say the killer kicked gens 42 times, I said the survivors failed the SKILL CHECK 42 times. The number of times the killer kicked gens is far too many to count in one lifetime. And 105% regression is absolutely nothing when the game lasted 50 minutes. 105% regression is just barely 94.5s of aggregate gen time. The total gen regression (along with the basekit 2.5%) counting Overcharge is 735%, with 630% coming from OC skill checks alone.
do you not see anything wrong with this? your post is blaming skull merchant for 630% generator regression+125 gen-kicks. you get 312% gen regression+all over-time regression. your almost nearing 1000%+ regression. this is why I don't understand pulsar or edgarpoop. Many killer player ask for this and faster regressing generator. your living the consequence of those requests.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3489309#Comment_3489309
The killer applied Overcharge 42 times in that match. There is not a single person in DbD who is going to hit 42 consecutive Overcharge skill checks in a tight 3 gen situation.
every generator kick is 2.5% regression. 42x2.5% = 105% regression. that is enough regression for an entire full gen. it is dangerous to allow killer to continuously regress generator effectively because of that 3 gen gameplay. At least they won after 50 minutes. I am sure pre-patch, it would been hostage game. i think the long games like that need a faster ending like the hatch but that is just my opinion.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3489291#Comment_3489291
So the best survivor team in the world not being able to consistently hit Overcharge isn't proof enough that the skill check is hard to hit?
i don't know. I played dbd in a time where I had to play against old hex:ruin every... single game. that was truly a polarizing experience. some games, i had to do all 5 gens under that hex:ruin effect. I don't even know if survivor would ever put up with that perk if it was like that today. If skill-check is too hard, perhaps they can make it easier I guess. doctor has snap out mechanic. maybe make skill-check as big as snap out though some people might still miss.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3489294#Comment_3489294
Uh huh. SM can stall out games long enough that it's impossible to hit EVERY Overcharge skill check AND she has add-ons to make it harder.
Are you really going to sit there and accuse the best Survivor team in the world of playing Survivor poorly??
uh yeah? in what world do you think that missing skill-checks is playing survivor good? you seem to be suggesting that we should now balance around survivors that miss-skill checks.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3489291#Comment_3489291
SM's design enables that to be viable.
Plus, Overcharge's skill check is bad design. It's entirely RNG, as shown by Eternal missing skill checks.
Also, that's like saying, "The Survivors aren't at fault that MFT gives a 3% speed boost." That's just a really bad argument.
right but if your missing many overcharge skill-checks consecutively then many killers will have extended 3 gens because of non-stop regression. 15% regression is like free old pain res. that is also why that whole call of brine+overcharge at 300% regression was problematic because even if you did not miss any skill-checks, you still got punished with hyper fast regression. Now you only get punished for playing survivor poorly.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3489270#Comment_3489270
The issue is it provides free powerful regression, which is exactly what the problem was with old COB/Overcharge. For simply missing one skill check, you lose 13.5s of progress from your gen. Either make the skill check regress only 5%, or add a huge cooldown to it. It shouldn't incentivize killers to continuously kick gens and hope they get the one teammate that always fails them, especially so on SM or Doctor.
but failing skill-check is skill issue. how is that the killer's problem? overcharge punishes survivor for gen-tapping if they fail skill-checks and you need to gen-tap in 3 gens to break 3 gens. it is not skull merchant problem, it is a perk problem that can be solved by playing survivor better.
@Pulsar said:
Hey, wow, that's what I've been saying for months.
She's beatable only through intense coordination and even then, it takes so long that few teams are going to bother.
The penalty for DC'ing is less than the SM game 💀
but skull merchant is at no fault for survivors missing the skill-check.
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@1ettuce said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3489264#Comment_3489264
Really.....that's just god pallets, mid/unsafe pallets and most windows are very mindgameable
Really.....that's just god pallets
good looping players make safe pallet vs m1 killer into god pallets. you cannot mindgame them because of good survivors know check spots. that is why BL is ineffective vs good looper's if the pallet is mildly safe. there is no mindgames if you reaction slide a pallet slide. a safe pallet is safe by definition of you being able to reaction slide a pallet. Like the killer cannot lunge and hit you. he will miss and his lunge will hit the pallet. don't believe me? watch comp DBD. that is why like 70% of pallets or so for m1 killer are just instant break at that level of play. no anti-loop for killer = no way to express skill at the loops.
Literally just dropping chase when it becomes the slightest bit too hard for you, that's not thinking about macro, that's lazy.
When I am gideon's map. I am not leaving loops because I am lazy. I am leaving survivors because I know that survivor knows how to loop and will be chaining 10+ pallets before I get a hit on him. it is not about lazyness. it is about no real gameplay at loops other then pallet break simulator. that is why hit & run is needed for that map. this is true for most of the maps but it depends on survivor skill-level in looping and how well they can make loops safe.
@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3489264#Comment_3489264
Very true. Which is another reason why I put skilled macro play as way, way more skillful than micro play.
i think micro play is skillful but not for m1 killer vs good loopers. you cannot express skill as m1 killer on garden of joy. the survivor express their skill onto you because loops are in their favor.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3489228#Comment_3489228
You could finnagle the wording to make nearly anything bad for solos. Being in a swf and on coms is going to make nearly everything better for them. This really isn't a point.
I also don't think it's that bad at all for solos.
Sneaking up, outplaying to get the hit if they see you coming and especially being able to multitask and juggle different survivors across the map is the epitome of skill. Understanding the macro gameplay of DBD as killer is way more skillful than the micro in simply understanding how to play a loop.
the micro in simply understanding how to play a loop.
to be fair, the vast majority of loops on survivor side run themselves and you have no control over them as killer other than survivor messing up as an m1 killer.
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@TeleportingTurkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3489223#Comment_3489223
it doesn't because, like I said, it doesn't let you do anything you couldn't before with 3 genning. all it changes is makes survivors EMP a pod before they start doing a gen instead of holding onto EMP until they can react or puts them in a threatening situation.
Literally no way it actually noticeably buffs genrush and you can say how BHVR won't implement it all you want because that is true since they don't really take suggestions into account anyway, but your argumentation is simply wrong here. You can already do what you could before and you already had and would still have all those restrictions and weaknesses except now survivors would have to be actually smarter about dealing with that, while also biopod uptime would actually matter.
if we take this area right here. i am going pretend that RNG of this tileset is T-L wall with generator and I am going assume some random tree spawns. you can place camera's like following. green = trees with camera high up and I assuming both camera's are far apart where you cannot use 1 emp to disable both.
currently, if survivor hold an emp and you shoot them, you can disable EMP shot and kill the camera. Let's say they disable that. they make it so that you can instantly shoot them and it has no cooldown after infection.
you can shoot from top camera, the survivor runs to EMP the top camera and disable his infection. you switch camera to bottom camera and now you re-infect the survivor and since there is no cooldown, you can tp on them if you complete the charge-up a 2nd time.
so let's imagine this. you chase someone, you hook them. a basement hook happens like on this map. let's say basement is at shack.
you move out of the basement. you check your camera's. you see survivor on gen. they do that interaction i described above and now you can tp from shack to your 3 gen. this logic applies all your gens. if you try to do this now, the only thing you get is 1 infection. nothing else. the survivor has plenty of time to walk away and will not get teleported on cross-map away. you can only cross-map teleport if survivor purposely is already infected i.e survivor messes up.
now survivors would have to be actually smarter about dealing with that
I am saying you can plan around them being smart and counter their reaction EMP strategy with potentially unavoidable cross map teleport's.
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@TeleportingTurkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3489210#Comment_3489210
this buff changes nothing singularity already couldn't do. actually powerful 3 gen singularity doesn't sit afk checking cameras waiting for a person to get on gens to infect & tp to them and it wouldn't work like with the change as well.
In 3 gens you're close enough to infect people & tp to them manually. waiting out that cooldown before TPing hurts you more than it helps.
yes they want you to manually infect and teleport. not 3 gen from the start while simultaneously apply hook pressuring and defending 3 gen from the start. this is what I mean by it buffs his ability to 3 gen. for reference, I do agree. buffing 3 gens makes every killer more viable.
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@TeleportingTurkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3489210#Comment_3489210
2 pods strat isn't really working like that, trust me.
you are either unable to place 2 perfect pods to cover all sides of the gen so survivor just ignores it.
or you're placing pods so far that survivor runs out of their range before you teleport to them, because if they're within 20 meter diameter of EMP, they're gone.
so good luck fulfilling 3 of these conditions on 3 different gens. and still being a victim to people splitting in 2s and preparing EMP beforehand.
to put it another way, the possibility of you actually managing to get 3 gens controlled by perfect 2 biopods is virtually impossible.
I am going assume that your p100 killer so your experienced and recognize the shape of what map this is. here's diagram explaining it. The map is father chapel.
you place 1 pod within generator area, say within 14 meters and you place another pod 14 meters away from other pod so total area between both pods is 28 meters both pods cover the 3 gen. it means survivor need to use 2 emps to disable both pods. they're trying to prevent singularity from being good at 3 gen's but simultaneously punishing the killer for using his power effectively. that is just classic BVHR for you.
removing cooldown would allow him to distantly pressure the map and setup a 3 gen from very start in which one of them posts says that they do not like killers that 3 gen from very start. Irony is that you can still 3 gen from the start but it is more tedious and not as effective as it could be due to internal cooldown preventing chain infections and chain-teleportation along with EMP mechanic.
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@TeleportingTurkey said:
A few days ago I have finally achieved that impressive milestone, being the first prestige 100 on my account. I am really enjoying Singularity and even though this killer isn't the most consistent one, I find him to be incredibly satisfying when he works. I feel like he's in overall good spot with having crazy potential, but very difficult ability to use & consistent counter play, however there's one part of his counter play that I find unfair and in a need of change.
I feel like survivors, repairing a generator & holding EMP instead of using it right away shouldn't be left unpunished by the killer as long as they're quick enough to react. The time it takes for survivor on a gen to react, charge and release EMP is much shorter than Singularity infecting them & waiting out cooldown & teleporting to them.
This, essentially, makes it so survivors have only one correct option in any possible scenario against biopod's threat - repair a gen with EMP and wait till Singularity decides to check the biopod. When that happens, start charging EMP and release it if Singularity manages to infect you. There's nothing Singularity can do about it, there's no risk to holding onto EMP, no strategy. It simply gives survivor too much agency in this scenario while providing very huge punishment for Singularity.
The time it takes for Singularity to infect survivor and teleport to them at once should be just SLIGHTLY shorter than it takes for survivor to cleanse with the EMP, but enough to not suffer any noticeable distance loss from being slowed down by using the EMP.
This would mean that survivor on a generator now has a strategic choice:
- Do they use EMP right away, ensuring killer cannot switch to them, but limiting their stay on a generator if the generator is too in the open
- or they keep EMP, knowing they have a cover against biopod to charge EMP in safety & dispose of the biopod later
- OR they have a pallet/window nearby and can risk killer appearing onto their location regardless.
This would add a lot more depth to Singularity's & survivor gameplay against them as now different generators would have different ways to be played around depending on whether or not survivors have immediate cover within 10 meters of the biopod or not.
You might say this would buff 3 gen, but you would be wrong. In 3 gen, Singularity just walks between all gens constantly replacing cameras and never truly relying on a full infection+tp cycle. You move between 3 gens, replace pods, place new ones to quickly infect survivors, drain resources and so on.
With this change, however, Singularity would be able to pressure gens far away, meaning this killer would be less encouraged to resort to 3 genning in the first place. It wouldn't grant him an ability to hold 3 gen literally anywhere, since survivors could still deny him cross map teleports, but now that would mean they have to be smart about it due to different circumstances affecting their decision.
Just one small, little change, literally 0.5-1 second off Singularity's camera cooldown between infecting/TPing and this killer would get just enough to be in the perfect spot.
You might say this would buff 3 gen, but you would be wrong. In 3 gen, Singularity just walks between all gens constantly replacing cameras and never truly relying on a full infection+tp cycle. You move between 3 gens, replace pods, place new ones to quickly infect survivors, drain resources and so on.
-The change you are requesting is to remove the cooldown after infecting a survivor with the camera and disable ability to use an EMP for ~5 seconds after being infected.
this buff 3 gen because you can put 2 pods far away from each other. if your able infect the survivor and teleport to them before EMP can counter it then you can shoot from 1 camera, switch camera and directly teleport from the other second camera.
this encourages singularity to directly 3 gen from very start of the game akin to skull merchant drones using pods. 3 gen singularity is already possible currently with said strategy. no need to buff it to be most powerful then skull merchant which survivors already find problematic.
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@ProudRinMain said:
Is running them now more of a hindrance than help? Or am i missing something here?
The supposed “recovery” aspect of the duration add-ons being removed means that running a duration add-on will incur a cooldown that’s longer than 15 secs or am i mistaken?
correct. Spirit has total duration of 5 seconds and she recharges her power at 0.33 charges per second for total 15 second cooldown.
if you use yellow duration. the total duration will become 6 seconds. 6/0.33 = 18 seconds. you will incur a 3 second longer recharge. The purple add-on increases duration by 3.5. 8.5/0.33 = 25.75 seconds. this is 10.75 second penalty. grey add-on is 16.66. 1.6 second penalty.
The benefit of duration add-on is that you can travel more total distance but speed add-on directly boost your total distance without incur any negative.
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@Wiccamanplays said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3488098#Comment_3488098
The point is that all of those steps are finicky, imprecise and subject to sabotage by Survivors with no real effort.
I suppose. singularity does take getting used to. if you ask me, singularity power is artificial skill-ceiling. he's over complicated for nothing for marginal reward. I think he would been more attractive killer if his design did not include infections or EMP's. he could just been hold-gun out, TP and the camera could been just some side-tracking and global map teleportation. If you teleport out of a camera, it could have like a cooldown similar to freddy gen teleport of like 30 seconds. perhaps he would been more popular if his artificial skill-ceiling was simplified. either way my issues with him is overclock not being potent chase tool over playing other chase killers and low variety add-on set.
The joke holds true. He was not programmed to harm the crew. My joke? He was programmed for the survivor's fun.
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it already did get nerfed. that add-on used to instantly heal you two full health-states. now it is just over-time heal. In the ptb, it was weakened to 24 seconds but the change was reverted to keep add-on potent.
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@1ettuce said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3488929#Comment_3488929
uhhh...no... in case u forgot, when chasing a healthy person, they become injured, and then get all those possible benefits, but only after getting that first hit on them which could take ages if they react to a terror radius. and after whatever effort it took to get a first hit on them, they only become injured. if they start injured....then the next hit on them will be a down. sure theres all the pallets and whatever trash map design there is while they're injured, but thats no different then when theyre healthy? suffice it to say getting a down on an injured survivor is easier than getting a down on a healthy survivor, im pretty sure thats kinda just objectively true tbh, except in the cases of instadown killers which we're not really talking about so, yeah
after whatever effort it took to get a first hit on them, they only become injured. if they start injured....then the next hit on them will be a down.
you described hit & run. issue is that good player have awareness and will put themselves into positions where it is difficult to instant down them. It is not that easy to hit & run a coordinate team. that is why I said that stealth killer are kinda of newbie-stomp killers. loops are just as strong when healthy as they are when your injured. I believe only Spirit and Oni punish staying injured but spirit has directional audio cue & Oni's ability has too many restricts like too long artificial cooldown build-up, punished for downing, slugging not being rewarding and somewhat unrewarded skill-curve compare to blight. being injured in dbd has no real risks if you play around it correctly.
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@1ettuce said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3488677#Comment_3488677
but getting an easy injure off gives an advantage in chase in itself. also ghost face is hardly a hit and run killer anyways, he has stalks and marks and all that, playing him like wraith is hardly a good idea with his lack of mobility and his recharge. also....yeah, a pure hit and run killer shouldnt be strong and really shouldnt exist unless maps and whatnot become more in a chase powerless killers favor, depends on however that whole thing works out. and u gotta realize thats how things would be anyways if solos had better info, theyd easily be able to heal up in safe areas and you probably wouldnt be able to get a down without commiting to a chase after getting an injure, assuming the survivors play it well that is
but getting an easy injure off gives an advantage in chase in itself.
no it does not. it just removes second-chance. there is no anti-loop from the killer when being injured. being injures mean nothing to the killer till you go down. In the face of all those safe pallet loops and strong window vaults. being 1 hit means nothing if you do not get hit. If anything, the survivor was more powerful when injured in the past because Iron will and old DH empowered for staying injured. those perks got changed but new version of being rewarded for injured is MFT. your odds of hitting survivor go down. not up. the chases are harder when the survivor is injured. I bet some player would describe it as survivor gaining anti-loop towards killer powers but that is a weird interpretation.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3488549#Comment_3488549
So, first of all- Borrowed Time was a popular perk prior to 6.1.0, but you couldn't fairly call it "meaningfully basekit" unless you self-select only to the very top tier of players, and even then they didn't bring it all the time. The fact of the matter was that you were at the mercy of whether or not your random teammate thought to bring BT, and that's not a roll of the dice you were guaranteed to win whatsoever.
Second, prior to 6.1.0, Borrowed Time did not give Haste the way the basekit mechanic does. Even if you're hit immediately, you're operating with two degrees of a speed boost to get you far enough away from the killer that you're probably at a loop, and that's where you start having agency. That putting you in Deep Wound is definitely annoying, and I personally support changing that mechanic to not be true Endurance for that reason, but there's no way of conceptualising that as anything other than better than you would've been before 6.1.0. There's a difference here between "not perfect" and "meaningfully a buff to tunnelling", and we are very squarely in the first camp.
I went back and checked your original post to see where this idea of four layers of anti-tunnel came from, as there were only ever two and one of them wasn't in your control, and if you're going to count Dead Hard and the syringes as anti-tunnel then you must necessarily count every other perk that isn't actually anti-tunnel but might help you out while you're being tunnelled. How about Sprint Burst? That wasn't changed and works just as well. It's certainly not anti-tunnel, just as Dead Hard certainly wasn't anti-tunnel, so there's absolutely no reason to count one and not the other. Why not Made For This? Lithe? Quick and Quiet? None of these are anti-tunnel and only might help you, exactly like Dead Hard-- with the difference being that none of them are as overwhelmingly, disgustingly overpowered as DH used to be, of course.
So, then, if what we had before was 0-2 sources of actual anti-tunnel (Borrowed Time and Decisive Strike) and a handful of tools you could also leverage while being tunnelled, what we have now is... 1-3 sources of actual anti-tunnel (Basekit Endurance + Haste guaranteed, then Borrowed Time to throw off killers waiting out the ten seconds and Off The Record's other two effects more than its Endurance) plus a handful of tools you could also leverage while being tunnelled.
Honestly, reading that back as I type it, I think we should acknowledge the other anti-tunnel tool that your teammates can bring, Guardian. Nobody does, I'm aware of that, but it is technically a potential source of anti-tunnel if we're counting Borrowed Time.
This is pretty clearly an objective improvement over where we were before, regarding tunnelling. The RNG is gone, you now cannot be downed immediately no matter what, and there are tools that can help mitigate how powerful tunnelling is. It's not perfect, and it could stand to be improved a lot, but that's not the argument we're discussing here- the argument I'm contesting is that tunnelling was buffed in 6.1.0. It wasn't. It was nerfed, albeit not by as much as it could've been.
How about Sprint Burst? That wasn't changed and works just as well. It's certainly not anti-tunnel, just as Dead Hard certainly wasn't anti-tunnel, so there's absolutely no reason to count one and not the other. Why not Made For This? Lithe? Quick and Quiet? None of these are anti-tunnel and only might help you, exactly like Dead Hard-- with the difference being that none of them are as overwhelmingly, disgustingly overpowered as DH used to be, of course.
the exhaustion perks are anti-tunnel. they are some of the most used perks in the game for exactly that reason. they help unconditionally both when you are getting tunneled off hook and in general chases. anti-tunnel just means it wastes the killer time often through extending chasing.
part of the reason why some people are upset at med-kit and coh healing changes is because it is easier to tunnel survivors that are vulnerable and injured. Just like how OTR grants endurence for an extra hit, healing gives extra hits making the killer spend more time in chases. DS was not only anti-tunnel perk. survivors always stacked anti-tunnel mechanics to maximize their survival chances. As a result of these second-chance stacking, there were series of changes to weaken second-chance stacking with DH+DS+fast healing which was old previous meta.