Devil_hit11
Devil_hit11
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both of these make the perk worthless….
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834430#Comment_3834430
Im aware of that.
I do think that you can design good chase perks. However, a status effect like haste should never be given out easily due to how strong it is.
A good example is play with your food. It provides a very strong effect, however, this is locked behind heavy restrictions to keep its power in place.
Perks like Stbfl and blood favour showcase that a chase perk doesn't have to include the haste status to he effective.
Dissolution with a few tweaks could also become a decent chase perk.
The problem is haste. Not the idea of a chase perk.
i'd consider stbfl more of exposed perk. that's technically chase perk but you don't see expose type perks that much either. Sometimes you see occasional mangled but it usually has very little impact due to the debuff expiring. dissolution and blood favour are jokes perks because you can outrun duration of the perk by running forward or looping windows.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834500#Comment_3834500
the thing to talk about his green add-on called Video Conference device. To my understanding, what this add-on does is reduce amount of time it takes for infection to tick 1 charge. there are 100 charges to his infection.
You worded it a little strangely, but your maths works out... so just for myself, and the sake of clarity, I don't believe Video Conference Device changes tick rate. If it did, that would mean 0.8 charges every 0.7s, which gives a charge rate of 1.14286c/s, which actually is approximately a 42.8% increase.
This would be a very strange and misleading implementation and given how other areas of the game are implemented, all this add-on does is change charges per second from 0.8 to 1.04c/s, which is exactly what you did in your maths, but that clears up any confusion 😅
So why is 4% still strong for wesker? Moving slower means that you can sway from right to left less. so if wesker is able to use his ability at correct time, he is guaranteed with good aim to hit his bound on you because it is impossible to sway enough left or right due to hindered ability.
Knowing this, Cleansing wesker's infection should be done immediately in almost every situation.
// ...
If you want to use his infection as tunneling tool, you can look at white meter to avoid perks like decisive strike and his grab still punishes you for using anti-tunnel perks like Off the record.
I think everyone understands that being infected is a problem to avoid, the 4% as you rightly state makes it much harder to turn left and right to avoid hits, and you combine that with the fact you can be instant downed as well, that's absolutely something you want to avoid. The problem is off hook, it basically has no threat cause it takes too long, even with add-ons, so it can be effectively ignored for at least a good half a gens worth before it realistically becomes a concern.
I would also argue that being able to reliably wait out Decisive Strike, especially over 2 cycles is an investement of time that isn't really worth it in grand scheme, and kinda has this idea of being fixated and determined to tunnel, rather than a genuine consideration of if its actually beneficial for you to do so or not. I'd argue you're usually better off trying to down the survibor ASAP and taking the DS if you're so determined to tunnel, cause now your next tunnel off hook is immediate, no counting required.
We've had this back and forth quite a few times with regards to killer powers when discussing Pig, Sadako, even Knight, so I imagine we'll continue to disagree here 😅
You have a tendency to see little to no value in survivor slowdown at a macro level. A non-tunneling playstyle attempts to keep survivors engaged with as many tasks as possible, and knowing survivors are occupied dealing with the threat of your power, be it RBTs, Condemn, Infection, Jailer, Hex: Devour Hope, whatever it is to seek a chance to put survivors in an unrecoverable snowball position. It also attempts to keep control of the game via overloading survivors to keep them dealing with your slowdown, healing and unhooking instead of working on gen progress to by more time for that moment to occur. This is not your playstyle I gather, where if it doesn't directly facilitate killing a survivor quickly, then it's use kinda gets written off for you.
The classic example I recall is our discussion around Pig, where you see RBTs as a mechanism that allows you to predict where the injured survivor off hook is while doing RBTs, thus allowing you to intercept and throw them straight back on hook for a second hookstage, thus making it easier to tunnel. This is again true, you are not wrong, and you can do this, but I hold the opinion that by doing this, you're a weak m1 killer not making use of your slowdown, whi h is Pig's main strength. If you fail to down this survivor quickly, get caught by a DS or a Dead Hard, and/or end up wasting lots of time focusing more on pushing this survivor off boxes repeatedly, you can easily throw the whole game. You can even lose this survivor depending on RBT rng. The Pig to my mind is more about identifying your trap pattern while trying to maintain a 3vs1 to then squeeze at the right time when you know a 4 box headtrap is in play and the good options available to survivors are significantly limited. This is what slow down mechanics facilitate, the ability to exert presure on multiple survivors while the other survibors are occupied.
Returning to Wesker, none of what you've said is wrong perce', but we're once again on this discussion of the value of survivor time pressure. Mechanisms like Wesker infection force survivors to take time off gens to deal with the killers passive threat, and by extension buying more time in the trial. It's a problem for survivors that coming off hook survivors need to run somewhere safe (because of the tunnel threat), take the time to heal, then cleanse the infection. Ideally the helper brought a first aid with them, but if not the unhooked survivor has to go and grab one from somewhere which can add 20s or more to their down time just from all the walking they have to do. All of this amplifies with Wesker's build, whether is gen regression, healing time increase, hex builds, whatever he's trying to do.
If you're doing especially well, this cycle continues to play out, overlapping different unhooks, and the survivors are having to take longer and longer routes to run across the map and cleanse your infection, alleviating gen pressure for Wesker, while also having the ever mounting threat you find the survivor you need to tunnel out of the game. This seems to me where your playstyle doesn't seem compatible with slowdown killers, because in all our discussions, you seem to continually hold the stance that there is nothing of value in any of this, and instead seem to prefer to tunnel, which is fine, but it's not the only way to play.
My goal with this change is to ensure that infection is a consistent time sink survivors need to deal with when facing Wesker, which in turn creates windows where a timely down limits the options available for survivors for things like unhooking, healing, trying to make saves, etc, etc.
This is the unique combination for traits Wesker brings. Decently strong chase and map traversal power with a weaker slow mechanic vs. Blights very strong chase and map traversal power and no slowdown mechanic at all vs. Pig's weak chase power/map mobility supplemented by stealth, with a strong slowdown mechanic.
Wesker having a weaker, but consistent slowdown in his kit is a buff that makes a killer that strikes a good balance of strengths, without him being oppressive or unfair with any of them.
it is 5 second time sink. really it's a little better than mangled for hook heals. if you aggressively search for chests when killer has 0 map presence, you can hold a spray bottle for entire match and disinfect. the strength of infection was its chase capacity which is why it got nerfed.
now it's just glorified decisive strike timer for killer. you have slow burn the survivor now to gain chase benefits. realistically if you slug like 3/4 players and only 1 hook person, you can keep 3/4 of survivors infected and tunnel the one person by avoiding decisive strike. that what i do with him if i play him.
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@AMOGUS said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834500#Comment_3834500
"Wesker's design is something like Oni where he's killer that build-up a debuff. When survivor are not infected fully by debuff, he has little to no control over chase because his variables for his chase power at base are too weak but when he does successfully fully infect the survivor, he's in control of the chase."
Hilariously terrible design then. "Just lose gens until you finally get full infection on a Survivor" What is this opinion? Even Oni gets his power back faster AND his techs aren't getting deleted, like Wesker's most likely will be (hug tech is most likely getting deleted permanently in a few months), Wesker is dropping in tiers because of him being mega counterplayable because we're focused on him tunneling.
Maybe buff his power out of tunneling and not delete his techs if we want him to not tunnel? lmaowe're focused on him tunneling.
sounds about right. i find funny they called update minor because those changes were kinda major.
Maybe buff his power out of tunneling and not delete his techs if we want him to not tunnel? lmao
if you read their post carefully, there is impression that he is already strong. i think he is incredibly average and only maintained consistent strength through niche tunneling play-style.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/ZULRZQSSENDJ/screenshot-20241105-095053-firefox.jpg
A Great Change
The last round of changes to reduce his ability to tunnel and score a free hit via hindered if he sucked at chase/using his power was a great change. A Wesker who comes back to hooks should have to actually be good if he wants to tunnel and shouldn't realistically expect a hit to come for free if he waits long enough.
Is there a problem?
After playing Survivor against a number of Weskers now, one side effect of this change is this gives a LOT of time for survivors to heal, to complete gens and largely ignore the infection (it's a whopping 125s to get infected from 1).
Originally after being unhooked the infection timer was 62.5s. After healing this comes down to 45s before coming back to max infection, even worse if you then heal the teammate who unhooked you. As Pig main, I enjoy these macro elements of killers (even as Survivor), and the old Wesker had this feeling that his infection was a strong threat... you kinda couldn't really to afford to ignore it.
Since the above change came into effect, Wesker infection kinda feels toothless and unintimidating... I don't really fear the Uroboros infection, I feel like I can deal with it at my leisure without much concern. This allows time to heal teammates, time to complete gens, etc. without really having to care... which was my main defence against the 30s extra timer on the Pig during her PTB.
Does Wesker need a buff?
Wesker is a good killer, and this is where I know I'll get the pushback. He is still strong, so why buff him?
I agree in the fact that Wesker has all the tools a good killer needs. His main threat is it his map mobility and lethality, but that is tempered by a pretty long cooldown and a larger TR giving his approach away... While his mobility and lethality is pretty good, it's not as strong as a number of similar killers in the same band such as Blight and Hillbilly... Wesker is simply outclassed in this regard by other killers, which asks the question... why play him when similar killers are better?
His Uroboros infection is what evens the playing field here, but with it in its defanged state after he hooks, the need to deal with his infection is hurt significantly... and there isn't really a way he can do anything about that... his infection is an afterthought... so there isn't really a reason to play Wesker over Blight or Hillbilly.
A Tiny Buff - Fester
So in the spirit of pushing unique elements of killers, I'd like to maintain the intent and purpose of the above nerf, but make his infection something survivors have to actively deal with.
After being unhooked the Survivors infection festers (mark it yellow on the survivors HUD). While festering, the rate of infection is doubled while performing conspicuous actions until the infection is removed.
Intended Effects
This would mean you can't just sprint back to hook and get an easy tunnel, and in fact your are better not tunneling, because if this survivor tries to ignore the infection and gen rush you, they actively increase their own infection rate and bring it back to old Wesker threat levels.
It forces anyone who is infected to actively look for first aid sprays to remove it before carrying on with gens, which gives that little bit of slowdown that makes Weskers kit a little more unique and interesting, and gives you a real reason to play him over the raw lethality of his counterparts.
I believe this is a good healthy change for the killer; it helps Wesker out a little bit while also making his infection feel intimidating to survivors, while also discouraging tunneling since Wesker knows the survivor has to deal with his infection or run a greater risk.
He also benefits more from spreading his infection around, and is rewarded for good use of his power.
Thoughts?
first we have to talk about some aspects of how infection works.
the thing to talk about his green add-on called Video Conference device. To my understanding, what this add-on does is reduce amount of time it takes for infection to tick 1 charge. there are 100 charges to his infection.
the infection ticks at 0.8 rate. that means that for every second that passes, you get 0.8 infection. so if you had 0 infection starting, you would take 125 seconds to become fully infected. Video conference device makes you gain 30% infection rate which 0.8 x 1.3 = 1.04. 100/1.04 = is 96 seconds.
The next add-on to talk about is Red herb. This add-on increases your initial infection when hitting a survivor with his ability. The initial is 20 charges and add-on boosts its by 6 for 26 charges.
If a wesker tunnels survivors off-hook by hitting their borrow time, the infection time takes 71 seconds to occur. something that this timer is good for is that it allows wesker to precisely, i mean super precisely tick the amount of time that decisive strike has. So if wesker is good, they can almost perfectly pick up a survivor as soon as decisive strike expires.
So why is 4% still strong for wesker? Moving slower means that you can sway from right to left less. so if wesker is able to use his ability at correct time, he is guaranteed with good aim to hit his bound on you because it is impossible to sway enough left or right due to hindered ability.
Knowing this, Cleansing wesker's infection should be done immediately in almost every situation.
Wesker's design is something like Oni where he's killer that build-up a debuff. When survivor are not infected fully by debuff, he has little to no control over chase because his variables for his chase power at base are too weak but when he does successfully fully infect the survivor, he's in control of the chase.
the changes simply changed time sink between how long it takes for him to be in control of the chase. if you want to use his hindered debuff, your best to use his iri add-on and green add-on and continuously slug because slugging people doesn't reset infection.
if you want to use his infection as tunneling tool, you can look at white meter to avoid perks like decisive strike and his grab still punishes you for using anti-tunnel perks like Off the record. He is still effective tunneler. He simply takes more time to get kills which i suppose was Bvhr's goal within these changes. They seem to be fine with encouraging wesker to slug entire team every game but few people play wesker in a manner that makes him strong so i guess he's fine.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834430#Comment_3834430
There's out of the box and then there's conceptually busted.
You're basically suggesting the killer version of (old) Made for This, which was incredibly busted. Your idea is just inherently flawed, and not even theoretically, it's been tried and tested.
tested on survivor. the problem with made for this is that made for this was universal tunneler modifier that applied to entire team. survivors could stay injured and all survivor would have made for this which would punish all killers for doing any chases.
typically for survivor, a modifier like this should be more centered around people that are closer to death hook which incentives killer to go for fresh hooks over death hook people because death hook people are harder chases. I'll end on that for survivor.
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For killer, it is been tested on skull merchant and for the most part, it was successful on killer end. Skull merchant was unanimously known for being a killer that had a poor chase capacity prior to her changes and encouraged killer to play as inactively as possible to simply kick gens until server closes. If the player decided to chase survivor's, they're immediately lose but killer player was attempting to be as resilient as possible from losing. BVHR reworked skull merchant to gain claw traps which would apply a long term haste bonus. this would encourage player to setup up claw traps to gain cross-map haste and setup up drones outside of playing turbo defensive from very start of the game. it would enable skull merchant to play more offensively despite being a defensive trap character. For the most part, it was successful for killer.
The problem is that when a killer is actively applying pressure, survivor would simply disconnect because they didn't enjoy the match. As a result, BVHR axed skull merchant. I am going to go back to this killer after i talk about few other killers.
Let's talk about another killer. Clown. Clown is a killer that has a particular ability called haste bottles. haste bottles with Cigar box last 8 seconds and clown has 6 bottles by default. if we were to say that clown uses only haste bottles entire game, you can get 8 seconds x 6 bottles of ammo totally a 48 seconds of haste. While there is a reload time for clown, you can be speed-up for 48 whole seconds in the chase. The haste isn't permanent but it might as well be permanent because of how long it lasts. The first question to ask is whether clown conceptually is a broken killer? Your post suggests that. I don't see anyone talking about this and there are not many mass disconnect reporting on him. For reference, the way clown plays is that he spams yellow bottles in his gameplay and than during his haste duration, he has to insert a slow-effect at correct time to get large burst of speed. that is realistically his chase power. Similar to how skull merchant can have long-term haste and can insert a slow effect onto 2nd survivor, Clown does something similar.
Ok, going outside of particular killers, there are many killers at this stage in dbd that gain large amount of speed in burst fashion. For example, chucky has Slice & Dice which moves at 200%+ speed every 10 seconds. even if we account 10 second cooldown, you get like 3-4 meters of relative distance for pressing ability. that is like 10% haste on average for map mobility. it is important to note that relative burst speed in loops or between loops is more important than total distance gain. Spirit is another killer that also has 5 seconds of 200% speed with her mother daughter ring and has similar green add-on for recover to gain similar mobility results. Dracula is new edition to roaster and he is also has bat form to move around map and has relative speed increases towards bat form and wolf form pounce. The most notorious killer to talk about is Nurse that has burst gap-closing tool in chase for all loops but than she also skips building objects where for example, a killer has to walk around building to enter a building while nurse just blink through it which is easily in 30%+ haste category. You can go down list. blight's another killer with unrivaled mobility. I said i would come back to skull merchant. All these killers don't have to do anything to get their ability work but than we have Skull merchant that has to setup traps to get lock-on tokens and spend personal time to get measily 3% haste. Apparently that is too broken and requires survivors to disconnect constantly.
So your right. it has been tested before on killer and a lot of killer that it has been tested on are able to play more offensively and have more flexible wins in their gameplay. For reference, the reason why people are talking about fire-up is because fire-up is possible gateway perk to killers exploring non-aura tunnel builds, non-generator delay builds and focus on pure offensive play. A killer might consider to run perks like Fire-up+Brutal strength+Enduring+Spirit fury. One would wonder if BVHR is perhaps attempting to slightly shake up the meta for killer? I mean they're changing freddy who is arguably worse m1 killer in the game and Myer's who is arguably most m1 killer in the game? Maybe there is something in their changes.
At the same time, you and @radiantHero23 might be right. perhaps it is just regular perk update.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834236#Comment_3834236
So any chase related perks have to include haste now?
Edit: haste given out for free?
i did not say that. i said i am saying that for killer to consider changing their build play-style into something different than this large laundry list of game-delay perks:
Haste perks are main potencial of chase builds for killer. besides bamboozle which is plaster fix to bad window design and slow-burner brutal strength, there isn't much for killer in relationship chases builds. arguably the most chase oriented builds in the game in my opinion right is Franklin demise+Weave attunement which gives aura's in loops for killer based off survivor's inability to manage their item. but that is like Opps, we made chase build, better get rid of that one.
A lot of the perks in the killer game encourage efficient soft-tunneling like aura perks, 3 gen like gen-kick perks, early hard-tunneling like gen-blocking perks but don't really promote killer for playing offensively and playing loose. Part of why playing playing loose and offensively is rarely seen on killer is because there simply aren't any killer chase perks that promote that gameplay style on killer end that are perceived as popular/good choices. The reaction you expect whenever you suggest out of the box is @GeneralV reaction or @ReverseVelocity reaction.
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@HolyDarky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/431700/no-developer-update-today
I guess we have to wait until either Thursday or Friday because that their usual dev update day.
likely next tuesday.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3833976#Comment_3833976
I'm against haste perks in general. Mft perfectly showcased that.
A status effect like hast should never be given out easily and especially not without any effort.
my expectations for killer perk changes are rock bottom.
attitudes like that will not promote any perk variety on killer side. your response effectively bans any chase oriented builds from being relevant in the game.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834102#Comment_3834102
Its because you can't balance a party game the way people want dbd to be. Its literally impossible.
And its still a party game. Just now its a really bad one.
sounds like excuse for keep crap killers in the game.
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i'd just make aura around chest permanent. no timer.
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i feel like dbd is stuck in the past where anything that dev change → please revert to old version. there is like 0 adaption to any of changes now a days. the killer, the perks, the global changes. everything.
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@OrangeBear said:
Because the viability of slugging vs hooking has been a hot topic lately and knock is a perk designed to make slugging more effective.
It does do that, but i think the difference in it's effect between solo q and swf needs to be addressed. Beyond that, behaviour would need to evaluate if they want slugging to be a part of the game at all.Just makes bond more mandatory to run then what it already is. Maybe they should change the perk where you deplete 20 seconds of bleed out timer if you down a survivor with a basic attack. my experience with pure slugging is that you either win because entire survivor team makes loads of errors rapidly or you get this long drawn out game of survivors picking each other up vs swf.
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i would suggest to add 1% haste per gen done.
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visioner is worthless perk after first 250 hours of survivor. it's beginner perk. beginner survivor don't understand that there is head-light polls to find generators. experienced survivors memorize all generator positions on every single map.
the hardest map to memorize gen location is midwich but even that comes with time.
i cannot see any long term version of this perk that makes the perk worth using for experienced player. i think it needs additional effect. my thought would be that visioner allows you to see next skill-check dial's position. In order to not have any fancy UI, the UI would be Visionary buff on bottom.
The numbers range from 3 to 11. 3 = 3 clock skill-check. 11 = 11 clock skill-check.
@AhoyWolf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3833835#Comment_3833835
That's why I'm giving it a buff
your buff encourages survivor to 99% gens in order gain haste in chase. cooldown on the perk is not needed. the scale of the perk should work like empathy. 32/64/92 meters to see aura of generators. the perk need something that a player get an edge outside of being good at the game.
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because skull merchant got nerfed. when a killer is weaker overall, the killer plays more defensively to attempt up disadvantages from offensive nerf. Skull merchant is where she was before rework where going for chases is unrewarding, pressuring map is unrewarding, getting claw traps is pointless.
As a result, the player is 3 gen because there is nothing else left for killer to do. The survivor that are competent easily break 3 gen, killer loses and the killer player goes next. Skull merchant before her changes was not effective at offensive gameplay. Her base game and fall-back plan was always defensive. Since skull merchant now loses for playing offensive, your more likely to be playing on defensive because offensive play does not work. unfortunately her defensive is not good enough either so until her rework and reverts come along mid next year. She's going to be taking L's where many games are unwinnable.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3833717#Comment_3833717
I think most of the speed increases would be pretty benign here, the major potential problem is gen repair. Even then, six percent isn't that much, I think it could at least stay for a PTB testing period.
Aura reading also doesn't need a nerf overall, it'd just be neat to have more choices for answering it.
gen-rushing certainly isn't it. one of main issues with killer at the moment is how difficult it is to hide your build as killer. aura perks are the only perks in the game that tend to be hidden enough to mask your build as a killer. i wish killer builds had more of surprise factor. a gotcha moment in their perk selection.
this version of spine chill would make weave attunement a gen-speed perk for survivor. If you use Mettle of man+OoO, you would have old OoO and old Spine chill because anytime the killer is near you, the spine would alert you but if killer doesn't target you, you gain repair speed bonuses. the build would not be good because Mettle of man is difficult perk to trigger but if Mettle of man's 2nd effect becomes accessible in any shape or form, these perks will become consistent info perks.
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@Ohyakno said:
They've said their code doesn't allow for replays before. My understanding is that it's a native Unreal feature, but I guess they've built it up to where it doesn't work anymore.
no. the whole problem is that to make replay system, it is usually integrated into the game before you make the game. the way replay functions are made is that you have to make bots replay the player action and the actions sequences are stored into file where when you click it, the bot plays the game == to players actions.
here's the problem. DBD for long time didn't have bots and the current bots don't exactly use all the perks. there is also the fact that… there isn't bots for killer to replay their gameplay. I am sure BVHR behind scenes does a little bit of work making bots for each killer they make but…. there is a lot of killer right now in dbd and making a bot for each killer is a lot of work.
after you successfully make a bot to replay the game, you need create interface to replay the game. common feature include a pause button, rewind button(5 seconds), a speed-up button(1x,2x,3x,8x), slowdown button (1/2 speed), forward button to 5 second ahead and restart button.
lots of work, doesn't bring any income. probably why they haven't bother do it.
@TieBreaker said:
I have no idea if a replay function would work. The servers seem to be uncertain as to what is happening in many matches. I don't know if a replay would be accurate to the match from the player's perspective. The replay would probably include quite a few errors.
If BHVR could make it work, it would be a neat addition. But I don't trust the servers to be able to map out an entire match without making mistakes.
replay systems don't have anything to do with servers. most of replay functionalities are almost always done local on computer.
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it is like almost 80% increase vaulting speed. i think the perk needs more drawbacks than just exhaustion. maybe your permanently broken for the entire trial.
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hud was specific designed to help soloq survivor. there is technically status effect that deprives information called blindness but just about every single content creator and player that has always stated that blindness is poorly designed mechanic because it doesn't work vs swf but punishes soloq.
to this day, people still debate that Knockout being an unhealthy perk because it deprives slugging information.
Killer already have a way to spy on survivor and it is called aura-reading. there is hex perk related aura reading, hex:face the darkness and it is closest thing to gathering global information on survivor for killer.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3832717#Comment_3832717
I would disagree. Blight needs objects to bump into, meanwhile Nurse can teleport exactly on to a spot that she wants to teleport to. She'd have much more control around many loops than Blight I fear.
blinking through objects in current form has more control over all loops than without. Nurse has to charge blinks. Blight has less charge time in his rushes and he also covers more total distance than nurse so he'd be superior nurse. Nurse would not be as strong. Nurse has edge right now only because she ignores loop design and has adequate anti-hold w mechanic.
Blight only has anti-hold w mechanic. He used to have anti-loop mechanic called Hug tech but this was nerfed.
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likely because Myer's and Freddy got higher priority.
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i suggested 3 changes about 2 months ago on ghostface. the 3 changes i suggested were following:
→ Increase leaning stalk time from 200% → 250%.
→ When a survivor is first marked, Ghostfaces hinders the survivor for 10% for 3 seconds and ghostfaces gains 10% haste for 10% for 5 seconds.
→When a survivor is marked, The survivor's generator's repair speed is reduced by 25%.
I further explain why i think these changes would help ghostface be a more potent stealth killer and improve his 4vs1.
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@AhoyWolf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3832712#Comment_3832712
Yea they'll probably nerf the bat a bunch, the ideal nerf in my eyes would be to make Survivors really difficult to track, so you cannot really use it well in a chase, only for traversal, + a slightly longer switching cooldown for bat form only, so from Vampire to Wolf it would be the current 2.5 seconds, and from Wolf / Vampire to Bat it would be like 4 seconds maybe.
they're already difficult to track. experienced killer use bat form in chase to min-max his abilities. It is not like new or middle level of players will proficiently use bat form correctly.
the two aspect of bat form that are over-tuned by survivor/BVHR standards is Medusa's hair add-on and the fact that he has 1 second cooldown post-shape shifting to attack. Medusa hair provides 15% hindered penalty for teleporting to a window/pallet but outside of that, bat-form teleport is not a good traversal tool. The other aspect that people whine about is bat-form tracking you like spirit and him being able to m1 quickly if he lands on top of you but the whole point of bat-form is for you to juke bat-form so that he doesn't land precisely on top of you. But like old spirit, even if you give survivor exact location for where bat form is, the worse player won't bother to mind-game or have any tricky movement so you get same complaint that killer min-max ability while worse survivor players complain he's too effective at slaughtering newbies. BVHR could increase his cooldown post-shape shifting but he has also has severe m/s reduction in that 1 second that makes little clunky. So I suppose they could increase duration from like 1→ 2.5 second's but make him move at full speed when in cooldown.
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I think most of thread misses the point. the player is complaining that the maps have few resources where the killer will bulldoze through all pallets and than no pallets will remain after 3 gen or 2 gens remaining. it is product of dbd's killer meta currently which is stacking gen defence perks to delay survivor such that they run out of pallets meaning that killer don't need chase perks if no pallet remain.
@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3832671#Comment_3832671
Not to sound rude, but you should definitely be routing better if thats a situation you often find yourself in. You should be routing differently depending on whether they can use their power in chase or not, and keeping track of how long its been since they did an action that would reset the timer. Predropping god pallets is basically a guaranteed BL reset on a good portion of the roster, which makes them great for routing into as the chase goes on if you haven't seen them using their power for a bit.
The only killers who really need BL are M1 killers, especially since they (usually) don't have powers they use regularly in chase to reset the timer. M2 killers (especially ones with antiloop) get BL a lot less often than you might think.
i am fairely certain bloodlust complaint is linked to the fact that no pallet resources = bloodlust wins every chase by default. even if a strong window exists like jungle gym windows, bloodlust 3 is bloodlust 3 and it will hit end the chase. strangely enough, that is mostly what most m1 killer bank for because pallet loops themselves in many situations are too strong for them to outplay. as result, you get extremes of teams that efficient finish all gens before half the map is used up or games where map factor's the killer to break all pallets to catch-up and win.
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lightbringer is shared. if your in chase, you get partial points in the generator category. it's very little but it accounts for getting silver emblem most of the time. i see emblem system more as way to track progress for what you have done in the match.
survivor play-styles and emblem system for double pip/1 piping encourages player to choose two play-styles. one that revolves around looping killer which will lead to you scoring Silver/Gold/Iri/Iri or generators which will score Iri/Iri/iri/silver. Usually, i tend to either get one or other every game. if the team is losing, you might get mixture of both where you get iri chaser and gold generators. so you get something like gold/silver/gold/iri.
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@ad19970 said:
Honestly I think this version would be just as problematic as current Nurse, if not even more. Survivors will be able to make less distance after she blinks and she now has 3 blinks, she would still be very easily able to blink onto survivors without survivors having much counterplay at all. Especially when survivors would want to get from one loop to the next, they'd be pretty chanceless.
Maybe I am wrong but that's at least my fear.
Blight already works like this. he doesn't have good power in loops but he can hit people between loops. this nurse is blight 2.0 in blink form.
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no clue why the perk cannot just be vault window →gain 5% haste for 10 seconds. it is the usual, bvhr factors wesker vaulting a window with his power →only balances around wesker using the perk →put restrictions to make the perk terrible on every killer including wesker.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3832006#Comment_3832006
I'm not so sure. That perk already has a range of 24 metres, that's pretty gigantic for just trying to ferret out survivors crouching near gens.
A small increase won't really affect its usefulness, and a large increase would just make it way too powerful, at least imo.
i don't think any of aura perks are too strong but i think their existences exaggerates tunneling. i think showing items aura exaggerates a counter-play that is already existed in the perk. the perk should be buffed to punish survivors for picking up items in that case such as granting 5% haste for 30 seconds. that way, if the perk is countered completely, the killer's main benefit becomes limited time haste bonus.
I see weave attunement more of chase aura perk for seeing survivors a tiles more so than detection perk. it's like good version of zanshin tactics and I'm all eats because both of those perks are too weak because of their limit duration.
Nowhere to hide and BBQ in current dbd because most detection perks in dbd have under 5 activations, low area of effect bonuses and sometimes cooldowns.
BBQ activates twice amount of times than say an older perk like Bitter mumur and it has near global radius outside of being near hook and than nowhere to hide activates for nearly half of the map on high mobilizes killers and has potencial activate +20 times in a match. You'd expect these perk to get weakened a lot more then Weave.
Alien instinct is just one of the examples of bad tracking perk. there is like so many others like Hangman's trick, Awaken awareness, Thwack! which is still pointless, Nurse calling, Hex:Retribution, Darkness revealed. all these perk have range limitations, activation requirements and some of them are limited use perks.
the aura perk that are relevant are outstanding good while other perks are outstanding under-tuned. BVHR balancing in a nutshell.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
What is worth using anymore?
What if I use COB, OC and eruption together?I just hate how slow gens regress without COB or OC. Feels like an eternity.
I just don’t know what to use. They all got nerfed pretty much 🤷🏼♂️
regression itself isn't worth it unless your hyper mobility killer because regression perk consume time to kick gens. in other words, you need waste time as killer to gain time on gens which is counter-productive gameplay formula.
Pain res, Surge and Ruin was only perks where you don't need kick gen but you gain time regardless. Ruin is very weak because over-time regression is 400%. Surge is 8%, a very minor amount that one survivor easily outpaces. it is good if you trying automatically kick strays gens in match but again 400% regression. Pain res is only time efficient regression perk that gains value however it doesn't slow game down. it reverses time spend to go to hooks. this was always case for pain res but it has received many nerf's.
pop+eruption is decent combination of perk regression gens but it is type of perk combo that relies on killer being super mobile to cut time between hook and activation. even then, eruption only triggers once every 2nd hook unless you don't find a chase immediately and kick gen after words.
the best combo you can run pop+pain res+eruption. It is just that most killer are not time efficient at kicking gens and work better off pain res+dms. you can fill in grim embrace, deadlock or corrupt intervention.
pure regression is sketchy to use. gen-blocking is common now.
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@AhoyWolf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3832617#Comment_3832617
As terrible as he is, I still have fun playing him that way which I think is the most important thing you can do in this game :)
idk, i have feeling they'll try buff wolf form in upcoming changes but like fail in bvhr fashion. than again, they might do something funny like make his orb give you 35% haste or something.
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@AhoyWolf said:
Currently I'm trying the Obsession switch-aroo build, which kinda also works like a slow down x Stealth build if you really squint your eyes haha
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/ILCXMUDF4R1L/hmmm.png
Not the best build in the world but I think it's quite fun as wolf-only dracula!
idk, wolf only dracula is kinda terrible imo. tru3 did video on this at one point and one of his comment was that your playing worse m1 killer in the game.
currently, i don't think wolf has much purpose other than using it as weak wesker dash between loops but that usually requires you to use bat form to position yourself well to line up the dash which require a lot of foresight and pre-planning.
the speed boosts from wolf are non-existent in duration. it is like 2 second speed boosts and orb tracking is like worse Oni because orbs don't spawn if you don't move apparently.
Another strange aspect of wolf is how wolf has a pallet break but recovery is as bad manually breaking a pallet. i wonder if the whole goal of wolf was to break pallet, pounce once after break and than pounce again, like triple pounce. i feel like survivor could still just hover around loop maybe it has zoning purposes like brutal strength.
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because base values of regression are terrible. buffing something that is already terrible has no purpose.
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@jesterkind said:
Alien Instinct is kind of just not very good and I'd love to see it tweaked a little, but I'd say hypothetically the killers who'd use it best are the ones who can approach from odd angles?
For most killers, if you see the hook notification and become Oblivious, you know what direction they're coming from- they're at the hook, they're walking towards you. So, killers who have a teleport would probably be the best users, because they could be coming from any direction?
That's just spitballing, though, I haven't tested it or anything.
i'd rework it to make nearest survivor reveal their aura. it would be decent perk to hook someone and than chase nearest person away from hook.
Injured person is bad and the oblivious is silly, obvious could easily change to also be 10 seconds of undetectable so that survivor does not know that the perk is in play. Showcases Hunting the predator nature of the perk.
I'd recommend using it on Oni. you can hook someone, press his ability and then down injured survivor if you beeline to them. that is the best case usage i found.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3831729#Comment_3831729
I am not saying your changes would be bad. I am just offering different suggestions that i think would be superior in my opinion.
All good, sorry to bust balls man, I was just having a hard time resolving your stance on things 😁
I think your reasoning makes sense here, just a quick question, cause its not immediately apparent, are these for 3.0 instead of 2.0? Cause these changes sound like they're for 3.0 given the suggestion for ring drawing, but youve quoted my 2.0 line.
I'll assume its for 3.0, this idea is actually quite interesting, mostly cause her condemn lock in features more in her kit. After all, 2 hits on a survivor is 2 condemn, which will be the common condemn lock in unless they get a tape off mid chase somehow.
If Sadako's game in 3.0 wasn't better with hit and run, this would be possibly overtuned... but considering she wants to hit and run there is more of a trade off here... commit to one survivor for more guaranteed condemn, but reduce the pressure map wide, or drop chase and try to keep a global presense with TV control. It makes sense.
I might be a little worried though how much she profits from hitting someone off hook through BT or OTR, and there's also more potential condemn value from slugging.... though countering Dead Hard is nice.
I'd probably have to see in it action, but a mechanic such as a full stack for hitting healthy survivors and a half stack for injured might be worth looking into.
I think your reasoning makes sense here, just a quick question, cause its not immediately apparent, are these for 3.0 instead of 2.0?
they're 3.0 idea's.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3831283#Comment_3831283
This is why I suggest a 3.0 condemn change of say:
- 0.5 condemn within 16m of a powered TV.
- +0.5 condemn within 16m of the TV Sadako teleports to (maybe 0.75?)
- ~40 condemn per second for holding tapes.
Please explain why this doesn't address those issues? Condemn is always building, and the trade off is you control Sadako's ability to interrupt you on a gen. It makes sense for survivors to partner up to minimise condemn build up in this scenario.
This is far better than the 2.0 version, which you keep advocating for, but aren't addressing the problems I bring up...
I'm happy to hear your revisions for 2.0, but just saying 2.0 is better, which can only even be argued as possibly true in the very thin band where survivors are good enough to not get steam rolled, but not good enough that Sadako gets completely minced... is not helpful.
Why don't these changes work with 3.0? What changes would work with 2.0?
Cause as it stands you're gonna really struggle to convince me that skill is born from landing a single m1 then spamming TP every 10s to mori a player, and it's the speed at which you do so that determines whether you win or lose.
I'm happy to hear your revisions for 2.0, but just saying 2.0 is better, which can only even be argued as possibly true in the very thin band where survivors are good enough to not get steam rolled, but not good enough that Sadako gets completely minced... is not helpful.
the reason sadako got steamrolled is because her chase is bad vs good players. the tapes effectiveness or ineffecitve scales on the survivor's ability to loop and how easy or how hard it is to loop depends on chase power being effective.
inevitably, while i do think her condemn is not in a good state, i don't think buffing condemn is correct play in her current state. i think correct play is to buff her chase so that her chase is more viable vs better players. She's a bad m1 killer alongside a poor condemn mechanic. as much as i want her condemn to be better, her chase should be adjusted first. Flicking invisibility doesn't work in its current form because as soon as you see first flicker, you can guess the direction that killer commits on long loops. her invisibility needs to be way longer, a single instance of invisibility and her passive invisibility should be more aggressive flickering.
as for her condemn, i think a more simple change is to allow sadako to build condemn by hitting a survivor. a single condemn stack. The other condemn buff that i think i would do is change her ring drawing to no longer grant 1 condemn stack but to instead lock condemn of All survivors in the trial when sadako successfully hooks someone.
Summary:
- When Onryo hits a survivor, the survivor condemn meter is increased by 1
- Reworked Ring drawing to lock all survivors in the trials condemn up to 3 when performing a hooking action.
- Reworked her manifesting to turn her invisible for 1.5 seconds
- Reworked her passive demanifest state to have faster invisibility flickers.
I am not saying your changes would be bad. I am just offering different suggestions that i think would be superior in my opinion.
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i'd remove its ability to be continuously stacked with itself but make it have no duration after it has been triggered.
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@AhoyWolf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/431386/huntress-has-the-worst-ultra-rares
I don't really understand how an add-on that makes her a 115% Killer could be of Iridescent Quality… As a brown training add-ons I guess, yet still quite bad.
If they want to make gimmicky yet fun add-ons, they could try something like this:
- Limits your max hatchets to 1. (or could be 2)
- When successfully hitting a Survivor, instantly reload 1 hatched.
I think that would be neat!
maybe add-on would make more sense if it made you 115% m/s when holding a hatchet. Iri hatchet is play with your food meme where you stack 3 stack of pwyf and use 1 hatchet to down someone.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3831118#Comment_3831118
yes you can. if survivors ignore tapes, you manually apply global condemn to the map.
That's the same in 2.0 though. If survivors ignore tapes then you keep spamming whenever you have TP up, and now once they have a tape getting caught causes the snowball faster, because removing condemn is harder on 2.0 once the train starts rolling.
At lower levels of the game, survivor are ineffective at looping meaning they'll grab a tape and get hit 10 second later.
Yes... but it's not how played out in practise... it was usually hit and run, and then spam TP and let survivors fight over tapes....
I think this aspect of her gameplay could been adjusted where grabing new tape is easier. still, grabbing new tape was not impossible. just more difficult
That was the problem, it was more difficult to get a tape, especially in SoloQ and for newer players. The longer you took to get one, the worse problem gets because Sadako is spamming TP every 10s. There was effectively no skill for Sadako at lower level, because you just hit and run and put the survivors on a mori clock that is far more in her favour if she gets it going, but does literally nothing if she can't get her first hit. Once you have 2 tapes off survivors the feedback loop starts on its own, survivors start competing for TVs.
There was little to be done at high level because until you get an m1 you have no power... so where exactly is this skill expression? If you can only get 1 tape off a survivor, you have to just follow them around not letting them get a tape and you try and take another tape somewhere if you can.
All of this makes Sadako 2.0 very one note and predictable... I'm interested to hear this idea to make it easier to grab a tape... because any solution I can think of breaks everything and she either has no power, or it remains mondo brain dead at mori clocking survivors who can't loop very well...
statistically, there is 4x as many survivors as killer. it is always on survivors terms to pick-up tape and never on killer term. for example if all 4 survivor wait for TV's to turn on, suppose you teleport to 1 tv that survivor was near, the 3/4 will take tape out of the TV. So TV teleporting is always survivor terms and never on killer terms.
//...
Suppose Sadako spawns in K symbol and teleport to survivor 4 or walks there and finds survivor 4 before he takes tape. Survivor 1 , 2 and 3 can grab tapes. Let's say survivors agree to spilit up and do gens 1 and 2. they can take a tape from tv 1 and 2 and go to top-left generators.they can do generator and grab tapes while turning televisions off which allows him to hit 2 birds with 1 stone.
This seems a little loaded, and is a scenario that can only realistically happens at the start of the game, and aasumes that Sadako uses none of her TPs at the start. I do think her TVs should turn on sooner in the trial to further reduce this problem. However, Survivors usually start in and around the same area, so they can't possibly turn off 4 TVs immediately.
The simple way this works for Sadako is even if she follows a basic 2 TP rule to turn off a TV and then TPs to where she's actually going. If you use this rule of 2 on TPs you'll keep control of majority of your TVs. On 3.0 if the TV is turned off when the survivor delivers the tape, it doesn't become a 70s cooldown, it stays at 45s. Sadako can easily keep control of her TVs so long as she keeps using them.
The other thing you're ignoring, is if every survivor is trying to this, they are wasting time walking across maps to deliver tapes while they have no condemn. It takes what... 20s? To run across the map to deliver a far tape? Well the first TV is down to 50s... about the same time it takes for the TV to turn of Sadako herself... and survivors haven't been doing gens this whole time....
This is the rhythm of 3.0, the more time survivors spend dealing with tapes, the less time they spend on gens, so Sadako's goal is to try and engage as many people with her TP as possible at all times to burn resources and keeps survivors screwing around with tapes.
This is very different from actual slowdown such as Hex:plaything and Hex:penti where suppose a survivor gets hooked, a hex is formed and than survivor has to find hex, cleanse hex which takes 15 seconds, not 1 second and then return back to the gen. they have to make two trips back, spend 15 second cleanse totem, the totem can be re-lit by killer forcing survivor to spend more time on totems. The comparison that Sadako's ability is slowdown is a joke.
This is why a build like Sloppy Butcher, Hex: Face the Darkness, Plaything and Penti is a good build on her. You overload the survivors with side quests. Again, you can't grab a tape until you deliver one, and every second spent dealing with heals, dealing with Plaything, dealing with Penti, all while getting screams interrupting/revealing everything, and running acroos the map to deal with this building up condemn the whole time, it is something that Sadako can pick as and when to squeeze or commit to chance.
I could keep going with the quote war, but at a certain point it stops being constructive. So to conclude:
2.0 was unbelievably oppressive and mind numbingly easy at low levels. Low level players are players too and this power was incredibly punishing for weaker loopers… which might be excusable if she was good high level... but she was not, she got flattened at high level, so nobody wins. She was a pub stomp one trick, that once she got figured out, has basically nothing. This happens in a lot of games and is very unhealthy. It's the same thing as Tombstone Piece Myers; one gameplan that if he can't get it off, he sucks.
3.0 is a slow burn power, both sides play constantly around this side quest. Is Sadako too weak in this version? Yes. She needs buffs, but is it awfully designed and she has literally nothing she can do? No.
3.0 has the same state as Pig, where she is a macro snowball killer, where if a survivor ignores or doesn't respect her power, they can easily throw a game. Sadako and Pig have the same thing going where their mori threat allows them force survivors into non-optimal situations and slow the game down, and is always poking/looking out for that moment where someone cracks. If you play a high level team that perfectly plays around your slowdown mechanic, you will struggle to get your power/snowball going, but the threat is always there.
I get the impression, you don't like this playstyle... you want a high lethality killer, and that is fine... but I'm in the camp that prefers the more tactile and macro based killers, the killers where I can keep multiple survivors engaged at once and force them to make difficult choices, rather than ones where I bully someone out of the game.
they don't need to walk around to other side of the map to deliver tapes. they can take tapes out of TV, work on the gen, mostly uninterrupted and sadako cannot use her ability to generate condemn stacks. The skill aspect of killer was over-coming her poor m1 game. A survivor not getting hit with the tape conversely means killer playing poorly and vice versa.
I don't think Sadako is slow-burner. she's nothing burner. the side-objective is meaningless and after thought to her threat level. I don't agree that she's anything like pig and pig is significant more power and control over her ability. Survivors have long escaped before Sadako gets anything marginally done with her ability.
Myer's tombstone is leagues above sadako. it's not even close. It is not that i don't like this play-style. It is that there is no play-style vs good players. Her power is pure pub-stompy and only works vs players that have no clue how power functions.
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dunno, i am mostly playing clown during event and i played little bit of unknown. the double-taping felt a lot like Old pinky finger clown for me. i could throw purple bottles, catch-up the survivor than use projectile+m1 to double tap survivor after direct hit bottle hit.
most killers don't get much value from event power so it's mostly playing killer on hard-mode similar to last years event. this year's is a lot more severe for killer because halloween world has pallet resources. survivor can enter portal, loop in halloween world and if they get injured, run to a portal back to original map. it's like every map is Gideon's with two floors where 2nd floor is halloween world. survivor rarely run out of pallet resources and can spam drop pallets while killer have no real benefits.
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@AhoyWolf said:
To move faster when exiting Tunnels, I really love how Xeno's are fast in the movies, yet Xenomorph it just kinda slow in dbd, I personally hate his tail attack both as a Survivor and as a Killer, I know there is an add-on that increases your movement speed by 5% for 3 seconds, which is kinda sad to be honest.
I wish he had similar movement speed when exiting Tunnels like Sadako, even tho that might be a bit much, but it would be really fun and cool!
more of numbers balance issue with Xeno. they made his add-on super safe. Likely to not make Xeno too popular due to popular narrative of his tail being unfun to face.
@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/431307/i-wish-xeno-had-sadakos-ability
I’d be on board with that. In exchange - I wish sadako had his ability. I would like killer instinct when I come out of the TV 📺 of my choice.
(Not for all TVs)
Thoughts?thoughts that it adds anti-stealth into her kit, her kit is complex enough to not add extra elements into an already complicated kit.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
No. If you're in a position where you had to hook someone that close to an open gate and survivors are in good position to make the save then you already lost. Killers shouldn't be given a free kill just because it's endgame.
killers still get free kills in end game because anti-tunnel perk don't work and anti-camp mechanic also disables.
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@Smoe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3831087#Comment_3831087
100% missing the point here. first of all, iri amulet increases hide-oh duration by 50%. i believe it was 100% in PTB but between activating hide-oh and it is expiring which by default lasts 14 seconds and extended duration which is 14+7 so 21 seconds, the ability lasts so long that you can bloodlust in this duration. timing out ability is near impractical.
That just means addons like iri amulet is what should be looked at, not hidey-ho mode and manual scamper itself.
Slice & Dice is more universally time efficient than walking for chucky but the ability does not necessary grant guaranteed hits. While the ability is difficult to avoid, it is not impossible to avoid. avoiding m1 for killer almost entirely rely on killer to not be good at playing killer in general. the whole 360 clip's tiktok clips isn't real thing at the good level of dbd. it is survivor taking advantage of like newish killers. Unless you balance around m1 attacks being a semi-reliable prospective to dodge, it is not something that can be balanced around.
Again, i don't believe you for a second. I have seen many Survivors outrunning Chucky's hidey-ho mode duration in my time playing as Chucky back then, they didn't even require to do anything fancy like 360, they just needed good game sense and not camping the same pallet for the entire duration.
M1 killer are balanced around concept of distance, not the concept of avoid-ability while m2 are balanced off avoid-ability. When you add palle vaulting for m1 killers, the concept is no longer concept of distance but concept of avoid-ability which is where vault pallet →m1 problem arises which leads to my next point.
Which again, can be solved by adjusting the stats of Hidey-Ho mode, either through it's duration of the speed of which Chucky moves during Hidey-Ho mode.
In fact, i'm perfectly fine with having current scamper speed for Slice & Dice's scamper while manual scamper's speed is decreased so that it doesn't work in chases as well, but better for mindgaming and stealthy approach. Literally anything is better than outright removal.
Chucky doesn't need mindgame loops if he can vault pallet and run forward. if your stats are innately better than survivors, you innately will get the hit through function of time. There is functionally no need to mindgame. you brute force every loop. Brute forcing may not be time efficient strategy… like chases can still take long enough for survivor finish all 5 gens but we are not talking about strength. we're talking about its counter-play. the interactive process between killer in chase vs survivor in chase.
Like i wrote above, stats can be changed, if the killer's stats is too much for it's power, then it can be ironed out to be more fair.
Chucky makes loud enough audible noises both when scampering and vaulting in general, something Survivors can and have used to counter him with whenever he does it, forcing him into doing mindgames.
The counter-play is again, to literally to just having game sense and outrunning the duration of Hidey-Ho mode, which you can't do by simply camping at a short loop.
Not without breaking pallet. safe loops in the game are functionally bloodlust 3 infinities and when killer breaks a pallet, the survivor gains a large amount of distance. it is like most basic fundamental concept of looping. You catch-up eventually as killer by survivor having no resources. It is not same thing as entirely ignoring the resource.
Ignoring a pallet at tiles like Jungle Gym or Shack with manual scamper would not help Chucky catch up any faster unless the Survivor makes a mistake. Chucky is still gonna be forced to break the pallets in the end.
Chucky ignoring pallets and windows only helps him when Survivors camps at a loop with only a single pallet or window without nothing else nearby to chain the loop with, which tends to mostly just be unsafe loops.
What makes him not lore accurate right now? He still scampers pallets. I mean scamper isn't strong but he still has scamper. Slice & dice is him moving faster, more of product of dbd gameplay. Chucky is m2 dash killer. Like all killers, they all have m1 but he is m2 primary focused killer. 4.4 m/s further illustrates that.
Except scampering under things stealthly is what he does in the movies, without that, he is not completely lore accurate like he was prior to manual scamper's removal. It's existence is a core component to his character, the loss of it removes a piece of his character's identity.
You're talking as if his entire identity boils down to Slice & Dice only, but that's just a simplistic misrepresentation of his character as that's just one part of him.
He is much more of an stealth ambush killer than just a dash killer due to how crafty, deceptive and sneaky he is in his movies, taking his victims by surprise from place they don't expect with extreme violence. His main power being literally a stealth focused power in of itself and Survivors seeing illusions of fake footprints around them proves that and is what manual scamper plays into as it is in-character for him to do that, while Slice & Dice is the part of Chucky when he goes on the offense like in the movies.
Hidey-Ho mode, Manual Scamper and Slice & Dice are all core components to Chucky's character, remove one of them and he is incomplete. Slice & Dice scamper can't replace importance that manual scamper was to his character.
Manual Scamper must return to make Chucky as a character whole and it is something that i firmly believe in. Also i'm not the only one who feels this way as it seems the community is split on being either for or against manual scamper's existence.
he still has undetectable. his stealth aspects remain unchanged. what does manual scamper have to do with stealth? Manual scamper was chase tool and by being chase tool, it is opposite of stealth.
ignoring a pallet at tiles like Jungle Gym or Shack with manual scamper would not help Chucky catch up any faster unless the Survivor makes a mistake. Chucky is still gonna be forced to break the pallets in the end.
the survivor isn't making a mistake. the killer is brute forcing loop. the safer loop, the better. for example with shack, a chucky that runs bamboozle can block the window, vault pallet and just follow survivor hold-W key until they're in range. eventually they get the m1 hit.
Which again, can be solved by adjusting the stats of Hidey-Ho mode, either through it's duration of the speed of which Chucky moves during Hidey-Ho mode.
Adjusting duration of hide-oh makes his stealth worse and it narrows window to use S&D. Changes that he does not need. Decrease speed makes his movement around the map worse and again makes his stealth worse. Increasing time to scamper manual makes tool ineffective in all instances and like i said, the scamper's time for S&D is same as manual scamper time. BVHR doesn't want to deal with these over-lapping balances within killer. that is why manual scamper is gone but in removing manual scamper, they left a hole in Chucky's kit which might get resolved in the not so distant PTB future.
Maybe they also adjust wesker as he has some of same issues where pallet vault is not very useful and most player's that put all their time into wesker optimize his tech to make his chase power more useful around pallets.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830739#Comment_3830739
The haste is quite a lot tbh…
I'll be happy if it gets easier to activate the self-recovery effect. It is, after all, what makes Soul Guard stand out from other endurance-oriented perks.
the haste was stretching the perk's capacities outside of scope of the perks issues of unreliability.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830741#Comment_3830741
I will interject and say 2.0 was much more brainless spammy than 3.0... in regards to the fact that, yes it did have a 10s cooldown, but once you got the ball rolling on 2.0 you always used your TP whenever it was up no matter what, but you can't do that on 3.0 to anywhere near the same effect.
2.0 Sadako
As a lower level survivor you were always fighting for tapes once you lost yours; you couldn't grab one from an off TV, and you couldn't insert into an off TV either. If ever a couple of people got injured, you both don't have a tape and are now scrambling to get one.
Once in this position Sadako now just keeps teleporting, never letting you grab a tape. 10s cooldown is faster than you can run between TVs, and even if you find it, Sadako knows you don't have one and is looking to keep every TV off, so is a good chance you're gonna run straight into her teleporting on you.
If you're high in condemn by the time you get a tape, you can't not deliver it... you have to get your condemn down because of gaining condemn if Sadako hits you. However once you give up your tape, the TV you inserted into is now off as well and your codemn is only halved, so you now need another tape to protect you from the global condemn... but you've just turned off 2 TVs for 70s, and Sadako is jumping between the others, so you're still building condemn... you basically need to reach 3 powered TVs uninterrupted to deal with high condemn. If 2 players are in this situation, there simply aren't enough TVs to go around.
Sadako knows all this, so she literally just keeps doing hit and run/TPing around the map every time it's up once she knocks a tape out of someone's hand.
Now in 2.0, there is the caveat that she needs to hit an m1 to knock tapes out of hands, and she has all the problems she had before… she's an m1 killer... and has no direct chase power. So this setup above makes her very dangerous and oppressive at lower levels... but at high level where players really make it hard to get that m1 hit, she basically has no power.
3.0 Sadako
Sadako now will have TVs being turned off by survivors to prevent her from TPing to them and block the TV from condemning them, but the tape no longer protects them itself, and the major play point this time is the condemn lock in mechanic.
This forces Sadako to try and keep TVs coming on her terms not the survivors. Once survivors have a tape, they cannot grab another one, so this combines together into making Sadako need to stall the game as much as possible to allow her to gain the control of her TVs.
She can teleport at will and can spam teleports, this is especially agregious in small 2 floor maps like the Game and Midwich, but on normal maps the survivors are turning the TVs off or sitting outside a TV radius, so the spam is not achieving anything a lot of the time.
Her condemn is a slowdown mechanism, in the form survivors have to get rid of their tape in a far off TV in order to be able to grab another one and turn off a TV next to a gen they need. This is what makes Ring Drawing such a good add-on, it gives you something to apply condemn back on survivors for grabbing your tapes.
Now granted managing condemn is not especially hard to do for Survivor... and is much harder for Sadako to capitalise on... but initially there was no cap on the condemn lock in mechanic, and she was initially praised in this setup, since that fixed all her pain points. She had a reason to hook, and a reason to commit to chase and down. She also had reason to try and push survivors into her TVs and TP to get more condemn, and this was the mind game of baiting/cancelling a demanifest... The survivor even could eat a hit and make a break to deliver their tape if she got greedy (1s insert time). This was all good stuff.
Then that was hit by a cap... this is where this power went a little sideways, as when it just locked in whatever condemn you were at, condemn was a legitimate threat. Alas the cap kinda neutered it; it's kinda dangerous if you get locked in at 3 stacks, but not really... and any more condemn than that is an absolute waste, so you need to good at counting, which is annoying.
Anyway the point is 3.0 CAN spam but it is often not rewarded, same as pushing survivors into TVs isn't rewarding unless you're REALLY good at counting the condemn on survivors.
Overall
3.0 is garnered more around the macro of her tapes, it works as a slowdown mechanic, and requires using timing and keeping a mind on which TVs are in what state, rather that 2.0s score a hit or 2 and then spam TP as fast as possible to all nearby TVs and hard rush condemn someone out of the game.
It's also why I prefer 3.0 over 1.0 personally, because 3.0 Sadako is more about a slow squeeze on all survivors rather than hyper focusing one (though full disclosure I didn't get much chance to play 1.0 Sadako before 2.0 came in, I was still learning other killers).
3.0 definitely has some remaining pain points, but I think 3.0 is closest to the finished product of any of the iterations thus far. This is why I want the changes I suggest for Sadako 3.0.
A weaker global condemn, better direct TP condemn, and a passive for tapes I think makes this all better, her cap for condemn isn't so naff if the condemn build up is more consistent, and the macro round TVs is far more engaging than "grab tape when can".
It needs a little more polish, but it's almost there, and I think it's far easier to correct this version than the others.
I will interject and say 2.0 was much more brainless spammy than 3.0... in regards to the fact that, yes it did have a 10s cooldown, but once you got the ball rolling on 2.0 you always used your TP whenever it was up no matter what, but you can't do that on 3.0 to anywhere near the same effect.
yes you can. if survivors ignore tapes, you manually apply global condemn to the map. it is that counter-play is so blissfully obvious that the power ineffective. it is spammy as before if not more spammy.
As a lower level survivor you were always fighting for tapes once you lost yours; you couldn't grab one from an off TV, and you couldn't insert into an off TV either. If ever a couple of people got injured, you both don't have a tape and are now scrambling to get one.
At lower levels of the game, survivor are ineffective at looping meaning they'll grab a tape and get hit 10 second later. tape barely protects them because they're ineffective at holding the tape. There 7 condemn stacks so in practice, tape being broken is 3 strikes and your out.
Once in this position Sadako now just keeps teleporting, never letting you grab a tape. 10s cooldown is faster than you can run between TVs, and even if you find it, Sadako knows you don't have one and is looking to keep every TV off, so is a good chance you're gonna run straight into her teleporting on you.
this was skill-cieling aspect of old sadako. they did this way because they for some reason changed that you could put tape in any television. I think this aspect of her gameplay could been adjusted where grabing new tape is easier. still, grabbing new tape was not impossible. just more difficult. i think inserting new tape was more the issue meaning that on average 2 or 3 tape breaks was enough condemn.
Now in 2.0, there is the caveat that she needs to hit an m1 to knock tapes out of hands, and she has all the problems she had before… she's an m1 killer... and has no direct chase power. So this setup above makes her very dangerous and oppressive at lower levels... but at high level where players really make it hard to get that m1 hit, she basically has no power.
That is fair because of how sharp reward is for Sadako being successful at her ability.
If you're high in condemn by the time you get a tape, you can't not deliver it... you have to get your condemn down because of gaining condemn if Sadako hits you. However once you give up your tape, the TV you inserted into is now off as well and your codemn is only halved, so you now need another tape to protect you from the global condemn... but you've just turned off 2 TVs for 70s, and Sadako is jumping between the others, so you're still building condemn... you basically need to reach 3 powered TVs uninterrupted to deal with high condemn. If 2 players are in this situation, there simply aren't enough TVs to go around.
the goal was not to resist condemn entirely. the goal was to survive long enough before being condemned. in 2.0 version, due to how televisions worked, inserting a tape to shutdown two tv's was more win-more mechanic for survivor. in practice, if sadako tunnels a survivor's condemn meter, for example say survivor 1 has 5.75 stacks and survivor 2, 3, 4 have 0 or 0.75 stacks. if you allow survivor 1 to insert tape, you can redistribute condemn onto other 3 survivors so that survivor 1 has 2 stacks of condemn while survivor 2,3,4 if they lose tape have 2 stacks.
this is a lot like hook-states where objective of the game for survivor is to distribute hook-state evenly. you don't want 2 survivors 2 hook-states. you want every survivor 1 hook-state so that killer takes longest amount of time to get a 3 hook. same logic with condemn. you don't want 1 survivor with all condemn stacks. that will lead to instant mori very early into the game. you want condemn to be distributed evenly. that is what tape run was about in 2.0
This forces Sadako to try and keep TVs coming on her terms not the survivors. Once survivors have a tape, they cannot grab another one, so this combines together into making Sadako need to stall the game as much as possible to allow her to gain the control of her TVs.
statistically, there is 4x as many survivors as killer. it is always on survivors terms to pick-up tape and never on killer term. for example if all 4 survivor wait for TV's to turn on, suppose you teleport to 1 tv that survivor was near, the 3/4 will take tape out of the TV. So TV teleporting is always survivor terms and never on killer terms. Let's just one survivor takes tape to another television and other two survivors work on generator after grabing a tape. this is 5/7 televisions turned off. 80% of maps televisions are turned off. highly exploitable for SWF and not that hard to execute as solo.
She can teleport at will and can spam teleports, this is especially agregious in small 2 floor maps like the Game and Midwich, but on normal maps the survivors are turning the TVs off or sitting outside a TV radius, so the spam is not achieving anything a lot of the time.
Yes which is arguably only maps where Sadako's power functions properly because even if survivors do turn off many televisions, each television teleport in 18 meter radius is about 1/5th of the map. that's sizable radius that a survivor is likely to get pushed into televisions to build condemn. Otherwise, survivor on regular maps can just ignore the turned on televisions and loop m1 killer with no ability. again, regarding @radiantHero23 comment, this is not mindgame, it is knowledge check for whether survivor understands locations of TV, much of information is shown by auras so it barely knowledge check. It is just that on these maps, even when you know where TV are, they're largely unavoidable which plays into sadako being an effective killer. a killer is not suppose effective on two maps, it suppose effective on all maps.
Her condemn is a slowdown mechanism, in the form survivors have to get rid of their tape in a far off TV in order to be able to grab another one and turn off a TV next to a gen they need. This is what makes Ring Drawing such a good add-on, it gives you something to apply condemn back on survivors for grabbing your tapes.
The tape interaction is faster interaction in the entire game. Part of the survivors objective is to finish generator which spawn near televisions. Survivors can grab tapes while Similatiously going to generator leading to minimal time sink loss. It is hardly time sink.
Here's Paint illustration.
Suppose Sadako spawns in K symbol and teleport to survivor 4 or walks there and finds survivor 4 before he takes tape. Survivor 1 , 2 and 3 can grab tapes. Let's say survivors agree to spilit up and do gens 1 and 2. they can take a tape from tv 1 and 2 and go to top-left generators.they can do generator and grab tapes while turning televisions off which allows him to hit 2 birds with 1 stone.
This is very different from actual slowdown such as Hex:plaything and Hex:penti where suppose a survivor gets hooked, a hex is formed and than survivor has to find hex, cleanse hex which takes 15 seconds, not 1 second and then return back to the gen. they have to make two trips back, spend 15 second cleanse totem, the totem can be re-lit by killer forcing survivor to spend more time on totems. The comparison that Sadako's ability is slowdown is a joke.
This is what makes Ring Drawing such a good add-on, it gives you something to apply condemn back on survivors for grabbing your tapes.
The ring drawing gives a pathetic 1 stack for hooking a survivor with a tape. in many cases, if survivor isn't hooked, they end up cleansing condemn stack from passively doing gens and moving around the map.
She had a reason to hook, and a reason to commit to chase and down. She also had reason to try and push survivors into her TVs and TP to get more condemn, and this was the mind game of baiting/cancelling a demanifest... The survivor even could eat a hit and make a break to deliver their tape if she got greedy (1s insert time). This was all good stuff.
It fixed none of pain points and create same problems that are worse then original 1.0 version of the killer.
3.0 definitely has some remaining pain points, but I think 3.0 is closest to the finished product of any of the iterations thus far. This is why I want the changes I suggest for Sadako 3.0.
I disagree entirely. the ability is the further away in effectiveness than the power has ever been.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3831072#Comment_3831072
That would make Second Wind automatically far better than Resurgence.
on average, people that run resurgence with med-kit heal in 4 seconds after being unhooked. 4 second so fast that it might as well be near guaranteed healing especially if the person who performs unhook has any awareness in hooking at correct time. functionally most of the killer cannot interrupt the heal if they're further than 15 meters away from hook.
i don't really see why second wind needs drawback for its activation condition. the implicit drawback of the perk is that you need be hooked which in end game might not be best idea over something like self-care that allow you to heal safety and than run past killer in near exits. and the perk works only twice. it is also not guaranteed as killer can hit borrow time.
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@Smoe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830667#Comment_3830667
no because m1 cannot miss or their probability to miss when player is good is next to 0. Slice & dice can miss and the overall dash has restrictive turning so survivors can go far left or far right or play specific movement mindgames.
Which is hindered by the fact that Chucky still needs to catch up to the Survivors before he can land a hit and there is a timer on Hidey-Ho mode for how long Chucky can use Scamper to do that. If Survivors are anywhere other than at an unsafe loop that they're camping, they more often than not can outrun Hidey-Ho mode's duration.
Also let's not pretend Slice & Dice isn't stronger than Manual Scamper or that it doesn't get Chucky more hits, because it does. Anyone with a basic understanding of how to use Slice & Dice can easily use it to just charge forward and hit a Survivor for free like any other movement speed killer can.
They can't balance in any shape or form because you either have enough time to hit survivor around loop or you don't. making scamper take longer for one hampers his Slice & Dice and it occurs wesker bound problem where when wesker vaults a pallet, the survivor always makes to vault when looping in a circle. it is true and false type equation.
First off: Hitting a Survivor around a loop while in Hidey-ho mode isn't a problem, it's part of his mindgame aspect.
Secondly: That is completely untrue, they absolutely can balance manual scamper without impacting his Slice & Dice scamper.
Lastly: Chucky most certainly couldn't catch up to Survivors who knew how to loop properly, only way Chucky could mindgame at a loop is if it's too short to do so in the first place, i.e. unsafe loops.
wrong, the manual scamper was less effective in short loops because time to loop around in a circle is shorter. the thing, unsafe loops where killer lunge is big enough don't really need pallet vault to get a hit. only requires a mindgame to be won by the killer. safe loops on other hand is where manual scamper was problematic because safe loops have longer walls which allows even chucky who is 4.4 m/s to catch up over a long period of time.
Only way Chucky could ever catch up to Survivors at safe loops is if he was mindgaming with the Running Shoes add-on, which could easily just be fixed by changing the addon.
Also any stealth killer only requires a mindgame to win at a loop and any killer is also able to catch up to Survivors over a long period of time, let's not pretend otherwise.
Any Survivor who knows how to loop could easily outrun Chucky's Hidey-Ho mode duration at safe loops.
if end result is that you can vault a pallet → m1 the survivor and the survivor's skill in said instance is unavoidable damage than it is old legion problem. that is why they removed it.
I am not saying that BVHR cannot balance around pallet vault →m1 but to this day, BVHR hasn't bothered to balance around that. how you would approach balancing vault pallet →m1 is by making M1 worse. the goal in this instance would be to make killer able to swing and miss. sometimes survivor do pull this off by doing something called 360'd or a wiggle but this often said to be bad killer player if he gets 360'd or wiggled. however if BVHR makes it so that you have faster base movement speed as survivor than you can make wiggle or 360'd very fast such that killer has trouble tracking survivor with m1. this creates interesting gameplay that revolves around movement and baiting m1 in good instances to make killer miss. unfortunately for BVHR, BVHR hasn't really experiment with this very much and if there was a killer to do this on, it would be Legion who in his current is not very strong killer because of his complete lack of 1vs1 within his ability.
Except Survivors who again, knows how to loop can easily outrun the duration of Chucky's Hidey-Ho mode, many of the Survivors i played against did so back when Chucky could still use manual scamper.
I still believe only number changes to Scamper and Hidey-Ho mode is all it takes to fix manual scamper.
Chucky already is able to use his power after performing a pallet vault. the issue is that he can't hit any survivor after the vault because his turning-rate is too bad to turn enough to do a swing. he just goes straight forward when survivor is taking 120 degree turns like → or ← around loops. he is never get a chance to swing and survivor don't really need to do any fancy movement to avoid the hit as they simply cannot get hit.
And if Chucky gets his 180 degree turning, then he would absolutely be able to get unavoidable hits on anyone close enough to the pallet or window, something in hindsight that i'm perfectly fine with him not having.
Current Chucky is stronger but more boring to use, while Chucky before was weaker but more interesting and was accurate to his character in the movies. I absolutely prioritize the latter over the former because it is more important to me that characters (Unless it's Freddy) are as accurate as possible to their source material.
Which is hindered by the fact that Chucky still needs to catch up to the Survivors before he can land a hit and there is a timer on Hidey-Ho mode for how long Chucky can use Scamper to do that. If Survivors are anywhere other than at an unsafe loop that they're camping, they more often than not can outrun Hidey-Ho mode's duration.
100% missing the point here. first of all, iri amulet increases hide-oh duration by 50%. i believe it was 100% in PTB but between activating hide-oh and it is expiring which by default lasts 14 seconds and extended duration which is 14+7 so 21 seconds, the ability lasts so long that you can bloodlust in this duration. timing out ability is near impractical.
Slice & Dice is more universally time efficient than walking for chucky but the ability does not necessary grant guaranteed hits. While the ability is difficult to avoid, it is not impossible to avoid. avoiding m1 for killer almost entirely rely on killer to not be good at playing killer in general. the whole 360 clip's tiktok clips isn't real thing at the good level of dbd. it is survivor taking advantage of like newish killers. Unless you balance around m1 attacks being a semi-reliable prospective to dodge, it is not something that can be balanced around.
M1 killer are balanced around concept of distance, not the concept of avoid-ability while m2 are balanced off avoid-ability. When you add palle vaulting for m1 killers, the concept is no longer concept of distance but concept of avoid-ability which is where vault pallet →m1 problem arises which leads to my next point.
First off: Hitting a Survivor around a loop while in Hidey-ho mode isn't a problem, it's part of his mindgame aspect.
Chucky doesn't need mindgame loops if he can vault pallet and run forward. if your stats are innately better than survivors, you innately will get the hit through function of time. There is functionally no need to mindgame. you brute force every loop. Brute forcing may not be time efficient strategy… like chases can still take long enough for survivor finish all 5 gens but we are not talking about strength. we're talking about its counter-play. the interactive process between killer in chase vs survivor in chase.
Only way Chucky could ever catch up to Survivors at safe loops is if he was mindgaming with the Running Shoes add-on, which could easily just be fixed by changing the addon.
Also any stealth killer only requires a mindgame to win at a loop and any killer is also able to catch up to Survivors over a long period of time, let's not pretend otherwise.
Not without breaking pallet. safe loops in the game are functionally bloodlust 3 infinities and when killer breaks a pallet, the survivor gains a large amount of distance. it is like most basic fundamental concept of looping. You catch-up eventually as killer by survivor having no resources. It is not same thing as entirely ignoring the resource.
Current Chucky is stronger but more boring to use, while Chucky before was weaker but more interesting and was accurate to his character in the movies.
What makes him not lore accurate right now? He still scampers pallets. I mean scamper isn't strong but he still has scamper. Slice & dice is him moving faster, more of product of dbd gameplay. Chucky is m2 dash killer. Like all killers, they all have m1 but he is m2 primary focused killer. 4.4 m/s further illustrates that.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
I'm still mad that they made it not get full progress if another Survivor joins in on a heal at any point. It's so frustrating.
i think tthe perk would just be better if it had no trigger requirement, you get hooked →healed. resurgence already does that with med-kits, i don't see why you can't do that with second wind.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830602#Comment_3830602
I'm sorry, but I think you just don't want to see it at this point.
Discussing this further seems pointless to me. Sorry.
The first sentence told me more than everything. It's exhausting trying to convince someone that does not want to be convinced.
Agree to disagree.
i always thought the mindgames are suppose occur within the chase and the interception point between sadako catching the survivor attempting to insert the tape.
i am unable to be convinced if you are unable give valid points.
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self-recover condition is there so that player by themselves can use perk without a another survivor. unfortunately this perk show up before bvhr started to design perks like Blastmine, Flashbang, Wiretap and other perks related to do an action to trigger an effect.
I believe intention behind the hex condition was that many killer brag hex:ruin and slugged so BVHR figured that hex condition would be a reliable perk condition for the perk to trigger.
Likely, the perk would be better off if it triggers off generator progression which is more universal action that survivors are likely to do over facing an hex. Also compare other endurences effects, soulguard's duration is significantly worse than say perks like borrow time and made for this. I think its endurance duration could also use a buff. Maybe it would be interesting if also gave you a 7% if the killer hits your endurance for 40 seconds to further emphasize the perks nature to disincentive tunneling the survivor that just got picked up.