Crowman
Crowman
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The devs have always been data focused. I remember at the peak of OoO a dev said that OoO was actually fine, because survivors with OoO had like a 20% escape rate. Which of course ignored the fact that killers tunneled out OoO survivors because it was so annoying to deal with often the at the detriment of losing the entire game.
It's just it seemed like there was at least a dev or two who played killer and understood killer issues. And we got changes that didn't just make the game worse for killers even if the devs often dropped the ball like Hillbilly rework.
The problem is it seems those killer devs are no longer around and besides the focus on data they only have devs who play survivor making changes for the entire game. I largely stopped playing over a year ago, because I realized that killer problems were never going to be addressed.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4025201#Comment_4025201
But if he gets deep wounds for breaking the chain and for hitting you after he pulls you to him, why isn´t injure enough?
Deathslinger still has to take the time to reel you in. Deep wounds just helps offset that time if you have to drop chase. Deathslinger is already plagued with bugs and not really that strong of a killer. We really don't need to nerf him more.
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Deathslinger inflicts deep wounds, because if he hits you but is unable to land the M1 for damage and the chain breaks he still gets something for landing the hit.
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If Legion hitting you with his power is no different than if he hit you with an M1. Not really a case to nerf.
Also we want to nerf Trapper?
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I don't even think the devs are balancing around high skilled players. They seem more intent on balancing around their spreadsheet trying to force the numbers to be the ones they want while they don't really understand why the numbers are showing up the way they do.
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@jamally093 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4024095#Comment_4024095
I get what you mean by that but I think even at six stakes which would be all three non-obsessions at death hook it's still really useful
Six stacks if you manage to avoid having to deal with the obsession at all is halfway through the game. But since the perk tells survivors you have it any survivor who is marked survivor is going to run interference.
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People who like Skull Merchant do not want Skull Merchant made into another projectile/dash killer. The PTB changes are good and honestly more should be done to keep her current identity. There's like 40 killers in the game now, you have options for dash and projectile killers.
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I think the better idea is not to make survivors immune to Pinhead chains due to having endurance. I don't even know why they felt the need to nerf pinhead this way. endurance lasts for 30 seconds and other teammates can help break the chains. In any situation where a pinhead tries to tunnel you by using his power, you have protection.
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@Destaice said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4023948#Comment_4023948
In game design sometimes there are mechanics or strategies that prevent better more meaningful changes from being designed into the game. By trapper's design you can't reasonably buff him, as in buffs would just make his camping more effective. If camping if off the menu, then you can buff trapper without having the worry about a bunch of people queueing up mcmillian to pitch tents.
Trapper isn't getting buffs anytime soon. It took BHVR a year to give us pity Skull Merchant buffs after they gutted her. Trickster is also still stuck waiting for a rework and it's been 2 years.
People are simply tired of devs making changes that nerf aspects of the game knowing it's going to be years waiting for the eventual buffs.
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To think sloppy butcher died so we could have tons of healing perks for survivors.
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@SoGo said:
While yes, these sound scary, these assume the first survivor can last 90 seconds in a chase.
Which is rare.
Another thing that can happen and does happen, is 3-genning. It got nerfed, but it still works really well.
A tight 3-gen as the final one is a death sentence against any stronger killer.
Not that this is completely invalid. It shows why tunneling and perks like Pain Res are popular, and why everyone complaints about gen times.
BHVR just added a bunch of pallets to every map. Survivors have a lot of tools to speed up their repair speed. Hens set the SWF speedrun record for escape in under 2.5 minutes last month due to One-Two-Three-Four!. And while coordination certainly helps, the solo speedrun record is still under 3 minutes set a year ago.
The pace of the game is simply fast. Killers getting stuck in a long chase is a death sentence which is why you often see people playing the best killers who can handle the tools survivors have in chase. -
@ReverseVelocity said:
I don't think we should be giving arbitrary penalties like this.
A big reason a lot of the changes were reconsidered was because adding severe penalties for certain actions felt awful, this would be a similar thing, but aimed at Survivors instead.
In general I don't think creating penalties for either side to force them into playing "correctly" will help the life of the game. If people get frustrated because they feel they are fighting against the game rather than other players, they will just leave.
Sadly we powercreep making both sides more capable of completing their objective faster, nerfs to tools to help slowdown the game, and a lack of reward for not speedrunning a match to completion. There's just no reason for either side to not try to get a match over asap. Generators right now can be done in less than 3 minutes which is absurd imo. I think the game would be in a healthier position if BHVR took the time to put out an update to slow down the fastest match time. Slower games would allow killers to spread out hooks and if we give better rewards for spreading out hooks then killers would more likely engage in such behavior. Some killers would still tunnel, but it's important that killers can tunnel as there are situations where tunneling is the correct answer.
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The update is very flawed and there's several reasons for it.
Camping changes. These are not necessarily. They kept talking about facecamping in the stream, but facecamping has been dead as a strategy. They are targetting this at "proxy camping" which is honestly stupid. There are many reasons a killer may be within 20 meters of a hook some of them being maps like game or RPD where existing on the map is too close to a hook. It's basically the devs trying to fix a problem that doesn't actually exist.
Slugging changes. I do not why we are so obsessed with giving survivors permanent unbreakable. If the thing we want to fix are situations where the killer is slugging multiple survivors, then the better solution is giving slugged survivors the ability to pick each other up. All granting survivors unbreakable does is give less reason for survivors to pick each other up and play as a team. Not to mention that realistically a 4 man slug only happens if survivors massively misplay.
Tunneling changes. Adding buffs to unhook survivors that give them a better chance to hide immediately off hook. This is actually a good change. Aura reading of the killer and 30 seconds of endurance are more problematic. Survivors have historically used defensive buffs offensively. I do think some matter of endurance is needed off hook so survivors can't immediately be put back into dying state before they had a chance to even more their character. Then if we want killers to tunnel less we need to give out actual incentives that are stronger than just putting the same survivor on hook repeatedly. Bloodlust 1 and some bloodpoints are a joke and will not change that the best play is to get someone out of the game ASAP.
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@Mr_K said:
Because the carrot is better than the stick?
now we actually need to see a carrot for not tunneling.
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We can punish killers for killing the same time we punish survivors for getting gens done.
The punishments were the main issue with the last attempt. It's a shame the devs didn't keep any useful buffs for spreading hooks so it's still going to be better to force early kills when possible.
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@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4022433#Comment_4022433
Imagine investing 2000 hours in a game and being beaten by a 100 hours player?
People forget that a big chunk of this game money comes from people who plays it regularly and spent money on skins and newer characters.
It's not even that. If investing time into learning the game doesn't actually make you better at the game, then people won't put their time into the game. Doesn't matter if they are casual, new, or veterans.
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New players shouldn't expect to pick up the game and immediately be good at it either. It's a multiplayer pvp game. People really need to remember this.
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@Blueberry said:
Them giving a roughly 40% “tunnel” rate tells me they consider way, way, way more things tunneling than are “actually” tunneling. Real tunneling does not happen even remotely close to that number whatsoever. 40% is just factual wrong. By a lot.
I assume to get this number they had to use criteria from the last PTB that were being considered tunneling. Of which most of them were not.
The fact that just hooking a survivor back to back is considered tunneling is certainly inflating the stats. Especially when there's so many reasons why a survivor might end up on hook back to back without the killer tunneling.
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@UndeddJester said:
It feels like a negative feedback loop to me.
- Killers have obnoxiously overpowered killer powers in the roster that, when combined with perks, makes the killer ridiculous, so killer perks have to be nerfed constantly around this fact.
- Survivors in soloQ get smoked constantly because Survivors have obnoxiously overpowered SWF strats to make perks ridiculous, so survivor perks have to be restrained constantly around this fact.
- Because SoloQ gets merced at every turn, survivors keep getting more effects basekit and the odd yolo buffs to older perks that then become abusable by SWF.
- Lower tier killers become ever more increasingly difficult to play, so everyone switches to killers with obnoxiously strong powers and continues to stomp soloQ games, the cycle repeats.
No one is willing to take a nerf or any restrictions for SWF, because "that's punishing you for playing with friends"; because apparently the obvious problem of coordinated SWFs spamming powerful perks is not an issue enough to be worth using your brain for 20s to come up with an alternative combo before you ready up.
Similarly, no one is willing to nerf the strongest killers in the game in a meaningful way, because if you aren't at least as strong as Ghoul, the community largely deems you as trash and not worth playing... which to be fair is quite true, as m1 gameplay gets punished more and more by the ever increasing threats for all aspects of the game, to the point the only way to keep up is to have an obnoxious power.... set to be even more an issue following the incoming anti killer update.
So basically, perks have to suck because killer powers have to sit in the Singularity kind of tier to not get run over by strong survivors teams and builds... which makes any non A tier killer a ballache to play, so people only play A tier killers, and thus killer perks "overperform" and get nerfed.
DBD as a whole really needs a mid-chapter dedicated to toning things down. Half the problems in the game stem from the fact games can be over within 5 minutes. DBD matches need to be slower in pace so there is time for both sides to really engage with the game instead of speedran to endscreen.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021462#Comment_4021462
Watching their example with bots sandbag their entire point was peak comedy.
It was also funny to hear the dev talk about how he was struggling to catch bots. But he did also say on stream he's a survivor main.
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It doesn't. BHVR literally showed us a clip with the updated anti-tunnel buffs of using it to body block the killer.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021373#Comment_4021373
The survey is still rigged even though it has an “Other” option. People in general are more likely to select options that are directly in the survey, especially if that involves a simple mouse click, and the Other option involves typing.
This isn’t up for debate. It’s how surveys work. Anyone that has had to conduct surveys for academic work, should have learned this fact.
Also who is getting paid to solely read through every submitted survey just to tally up the Other complaints especially when it's very likely Other isn't being checked much more than the other options in the first place.
And even if BHVR did a proper survey on uninstall reasons, I doubt they would factor in that the killer roles makes up a smaller % of players and properly weight feedback.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021163#Comment_4021163
It isn't really an issue with what the devs have currently proposed, but it would be if you gave a speed bonus high enough to actually make a noticeable difference for map mobility. The only way to give a speed bonus high enough to make a noticeable impact on map mobility is give a bonus that would be completely unbalanced in a chase. Tier 1 bloodlust (0.2m/s) is important in a chase, but for crossing the map quicker it doesn't amount to much. 20% movement speed would be more noticeable for mobility, but wouldn't feel fair in chase at all. It also would promote awkward gameplay if the bonus was high enough where that was actually optimal.
If you want killers to spread out hooks and not just tunnel to get a survivor out of the match, then the bonus needs to be something meaningful. 5% haste (sorry bloodlust) does nothing of the sort and it's currently the only in match benefit the killer gets. We can't be scared of killers benefiting from the bonus meant to incentivize them from just tunneling a survivor to death.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
I sort of agree that tier 1 bloodlust is underwhelming but a higher bonus like 20% speed could cause issues too, especially if killers start moonwalking to try to get that high of a bonus in "chase" (at least when it's designed to not work in chase, which 20% isn't).
I also think using bloodlust is sort of limiting and is going to prevent it from being useful on a lot of killers, and not just the high-tiers. Taking it away from Blight for rushing across the map is cool and all, but presumably Wraith for example would lose it when cloaking, something Wraith will do after almost every hook, and he isn't a killer who should be missing out on the bonus.
I'd honestly rather bring back the haste bonus in the previous PTB with similar mechanics as last time (ie. give the stronger killers a lower bonus, allow it to work in chase which would make it more meaningful but force it to deactivate when hitting a survivor or breaking a pallet). The values for that before I think were fine, which was 10% for 15 seconds for most killers and only 5% for 10 seconds on the stronger killers. This way most killers will feel the impacts more and it could truly be based on killer strength rather than just what killer is more likely to press m2 after a hook - while some of these are high mobility powers, not all of them are (Pig crouch, Ghostface stealth, etc.)
I don't really want basekit pop at all though. It's not balanced with the tunneling penalties being removed and it forced killers into playing around consistently kicking generators after each hook which isn't always the most fun or how everyone prefers to play the game. You can bring Pop as a perk if you want to use it that way, but with the basekit mechanic it wasn't really a choice anymore.
What is the problem with killers utilizing the buff they get for spreading hooks? Like if killers start moonwalking to keep the haste buff for a bit longer, why is this an issue? If you want killers to not just focus their hooks on 1 or 2 survivors to win their matches, then we can't be scared of killers possibly getting any advantage from the bonuses given to them from spreading hooks
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021088#Comment_4021088
And what are the Survivor players going to do when all the Killer players quit because BHVR never listens to their complaints?
Like it or not, you need Killer players if you want to play Dead by Daylight. Or do you want this game to end up like VHS?
Just wait, devs will introduce killer bots so survivors can have the bot killer they always wanted to play against.
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It's very clear the devs hate Skull Merchant and her mains. You had the anniversary event loading scene where a dev made a comment about skull merchant that wasn't well received. She's being used to describe "evil killer behavior". And during the initial Skull Merchant rework previews they led off about how they weren't focused on making it a killer for her mains.
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It certainly feels like no one on the dev team actually plays killer in a real setting.
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What is winning for each side?
How many kills does a killer need to be considered the winner?
Do you need to escape to win as a survivor? Does it matter if none of your team escapes? Does it matter if you die if the rest of your team escape?
Like it is not that difficult to play for hatches by not interacting with the rest of the game as a survivor. It is also not that difficult to get a single kill as a killer. -
Mods do look at the forums. The problem is mods have their own lives and can't watch the forums 24/7. The people who post gore content will wait til times when mods tend to be the least active.
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@Rickprado said:
They've softed killswitched the Skull Merchant to do a rework and then they are just asking if numerical changes are enough. Really disappointing.
This is exactly why people should have been against the skull merchant nerfs from the start. We already know that reworks can take years to even manifest and still may not go live (like Twins). And given BHVR's insistence of making killers into either dash killers or projectile killers. We really should be against complete power reworks in the first place.
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What's the point of undetectable if we can just ignore it anyways?
The devs seem like they really want DBD to go the way of their competitors where the survivor role gets prioritized so much that killers just abandon and the game dies.
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The devs have been out of touch with their own game for years now. It's very easy to tell they solely make changes based on what surveys and stats say which is why we constantly see so many questionable changes.
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@Xord said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4019034#Comment_4019034
it absolutely 100% prevent ALL cases of tunneling. Otherwise what's the point?
The goal right now is to entirely remove tunneling so that killer as a role can be buffed, buffs that can not happen without making tunneling a completely non viable strat.
The only situation where tunneling should still be done is if a killer gives up and just wants to finish with one kill.Should we remove the ability for survivors to perform flashlight saves or pallet saves, because killers find it frustrating? Would the game be any better if we removed options and forced every game to play out the same way?
It really feels like some of you guys just want free escapes handed to you, because it's not enough to have tools to use. If those tools don't play the game for you then you find it pointless.
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The 2nd scan line being gone is fine. In a way, it requires skull merchant to be more skillful with drone placements and changing rotation on the fly. Removing vaulting immunity is the more important thing being reverted.
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@Nun_So_Vile said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4018935#Comment_4018935
A rework would be one thing, especially if they phrased it "Until we find a way to reintroduce this killer". Now, any future killer can be under scrutiny. And from the killer side, how about Scout class and how one of the least pleasant classes to face in a 2v8 and equally as obnoxious from the killer perspective as Legion is to survs? They are not fixing problems, they are making them less bad, which you and I both know has never been the solution, despite it being their M.O. for many years. Band-aid solutions.
We both know the minute the devs decide to remove any survivor class from 2v8 there's going to be an uproar with every post highly upvoted, because it's about a survivor issue.
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In order for the game to be killer sided, it would mean every killer in the game would have the advantage no matter the situation. But we know this isn't the case. Many killers frankly cannot deal with skilled survivors and the devs love to indirectly nerf weaker killers while ignoring the strongest killers in the game.
BHVR is balancing killers around Nurse/Blight while balancing survivors around the average leading the game to be unbalanced in favor of the strongest tools in the game regardless of side.
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I do not want to see Ghostface reworked, because I don't want to see the killer I enjoy become just another dash killer.
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Reworked Myers is still worse than just playing the version before. Like the recent buffs help put him back to the level he was before, but there's still a few things holding him back.
Stalk range is still 32 meters. His T1/Stalker Mode is 4.2m/s. Requires an addon to remove slaughtering strike. Can't hold 99% stalk.
While Tombstone Piece needed to be removed, it's also not something Myers can use anymore. Like if you're struggling against this Myers, you would have struggle against the old one.
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I really don't get why they are so attached to adding a cooldown to his slaughtering strike. The ability is already on a time limit and you have to charge it now.
Like these buffs make Myers better at the end of the day, but the attachment to Slaughtering Strike will always make him less appealing. This is just Billy's overheat mechanic all over again.
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@brewingtea said:
"You can only abandon under very specific circumstances where it won't affect the outcome."
Ok, so are you going to count that outcome then?
"No."
BHVR just recently added a new condition to abandoning which is getting slugged twice and picked up. Certainly a situation where losing a human player could affect the outcome.
Personally I feel like the abandon system didn't really solve the problem of survivors "going next" and I feel like the system has a whole has largely failed.
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Rank matchmaking was not better than SBMM. It was easier if you put a decent amount of time into the game, because ranks did not correlate to skill and you were more likely to end up matched with people of lesser skill if you played a lot.
SBMM issues stem from devs focusing on keeping queue time down for streamers who have ton of hours and mastery into the game that the average player does not have.
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I largely stopped playing a little over a year ago.
Survivor: When nearly every game was someone rage quitting, because you could bypass the d/c penalty with hook suicide it just made trying to play out games pointless. The whole abandon system doesn't feel like it's really helped the issue either as people just keep asking for more ways to abandon.Killer: The role as a whole keeps getting weaker with useful perks being nerfed and basekit changes to the game. All so behavior can not nerf the strongest killers in the game who are much stronger than the rest of the cast. Games on killers I like to play either are stomps because matchmaking is a joke or you get the swf squad you can't do anything about since I don't play killers like Nurse or Blight. Felt like my own skill level didn't matter and the game stopped being enjoyable.
Then survivors are just so toxic whether they win or lose. Which was another reason games stopped being enjoyable.
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The changes to the game over the past couple of years have only made playing non-meta builds and weaker killers unfun and painful.
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@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4013714#Comment_4013714
They shadow nerf and buff stuff all the time.
This certainly sounds like a bug and not a shadow nerf/buff. Unless the devs come out and say this is new intended behavior, this is a bug.
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BHVR isn't going to better balance the game by throwing out the ptb anti-tunnel/slugging system. What would happen is BHVR sees that the only killers who can compete are Nurse/Blight/Ghoul/Krasue level and we start seeing more killers that strong. When really the problem with DBD is the power level of the strongest stuff is too high and needs to be brought down. DBD matches should be less about who wins in the first 5 minutes and be more of a slow build up like a horror movie.
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If you want to hard tunnel a survivor, you don't need the his hook counter to do so. It's actually more helpful to those who don't want to tunnel to have the counter.
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@ArcT said:
'Weaponized' meaning 'to try to protect a teammate.'
Man, you sure do have a lot of rules about how survivors are allowed to play and use perks.
Is the perk anti-tunnel or not? If you're using OTR to protect a teammate, that's not an anti-tunnel perk.
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@ObsidianButterfly said:
Myers is why I have no faith in what they will do to Skull Merchant.
The Skull Merchant previews were just a sign of what is to come. Every killer will have some sort of dash or projectile attack. On top of that they even straight up said in those previews that they didn't care what Skull Merchant players want.
Myers is straight up being redesigned for people who didn't play him before and likely have no reason to play him now, because he's just worse than other dash killers.
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The issue isn't S tiers existing. Even in a world where Nurse and Blight get nerfed, whichever killer(s) is/are currently the best performing will become the new S tier.
The problem is that Nurse/Blight perform way above other killers and there's been no attempt by BHVR to fix this gap. They've just been allowed to remain as strong as they are while BHVR focuses their attention on every other killer.
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I don't think she really needs a lot of work. Things I would like to see are largely just qol focused.
First would be to allow her to fire birds while placing them. The fact you have to let go of the button to press another button to fire them is a bit clunky and would help her feel smoother to play.
Second is I would remove the system that prevents her from placing birds near hooks. Especially if the devs are committed to putting out an anti tunnel system.
These would make her feel better to play by removing some of the clunkier parts of her kit without adding much power.