Coffeecrashing
Coffeecrashing
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3777675#Comment_3777675
If you're that worried, then this is basically how it is.
Survivor dies = killer +1
Survivor escapes = killer -1
Survivor escapes via hatch = draw
Now, the system bhvr deployed has a soft cap. Meaning there is a limit to what match making uses to match you with someones else. Say the soft cap is 17,000. You could have an MMR score of 50,000 but match making will only see you as 17,000. Thats why it's meaningless to raise your MMR. Even if you let every survivor escape for the next 100 games, your MMR wouldn't fall below the soft cap threshold.
If there are generator left to be repaired, then why should the killer lose MMR if the survivor escapes through a gate?
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3776656#Comment_3776656
Maybe having it hidden means not to stress over little things like this.
There's no stress here. But I do try to climb MMR in every PvP game I play, and there's zero reason to make an exception here just because MMR is hidden.
Therefore, I should absolutely play in whatever way maximizes my MMR gains, since I'm given any facts on the MMR details.
If the 4th survivor really isn't important, then BHVR can just flat out tell us the MMR details about the 4th survivor… We have been told that hatch escapes are 0 MMR, but we still don't know if gate escapes are worth 0 MMR if there are still generators left. That is very important information. if there are still generators left, then any escape survivors make should be 0 MMR points. We shouldn't have a loophole that survivors can gain MMR from gate escapes when there are still generators left.
…and if killers are not supposed to slug for the 4k, then BHVR should tell us the 4th survivor is always worth 0 MMR points, and therefore it literally doesn't matter what happens to them.
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@ARTRA said:
So does that slow affects on 1º whip when you get infected or in all whip attacks?
Also how it feels that -1 charge needed?
The -1 charge is an overall nerf, because Marvin’s blood got such a huge nerf that it will take more hits to reach T3 that it currently does on live.
And I’d rather get into T3 sooner, than get into T2 one hit sooner.
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Just give survivors in-game voice chat, with a list of languages they want to participate in.
That’s it. Give survivors something major, that the base game doesn’t have, to encourage them to queue as survivor.
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@Sandt1985 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/422935/i-think-i-know-the-distortion-change
The most requested change i've heard is "you only get tokens while being chased." I like that idea
That’s the most requested change because it’s - very light nerf, and most of the comments are from people that don’t really want the perk nerfed in a meaningful way.
We wanted SO LONG, and had so many complaints about this perk, that we really deserve for it to have a real nerf, have tokens not being able to recharge at all
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@Peanits said:
It does have it, but I'm glad to hear it feels nice!
To quickly touch on the question at the end, pretty much any casual game (or game with a casual queue) has some form of hidden MMR. Simply put, not having MMR it totally fine if you're a really good player, but it's absolutely brutal if you're on the lower end and constantly getting matched with people who are way better than you. It's sole purpose is to keep those people apart so everyone can have a fair chance, nothing more. It's also why we don't show it to you, it's not something you should care about or stress over.
Not being able to see MMR causes its own issues.
If there are generators left, there is only one survivor alive, and the killer closes hatch… we don’t know if the killer will lose MMR (and the survivor will gain MMR) if the survivor escapes through a gate. This means that if the gates are too far apart and the killer can’t defend them both, then the killer should never want to close hatch, and the survivor should never want to jump in hatch.
And since we don’t know if a 3k and 4k is a big MMR difference or small MMR difference, killers should always slug for the 4k, because they don’t know how badly their MMR is being affected by letting the 4th person have a chance at hatch.
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@Peanits said:
On colourblind filters, I do want to take a moment to clarify that they are not a perfect solution to scratch mark visibility. The filters apply to everything in the game. If someone has a hard time seeing scratch marks on a surface that has red tones (such as in the example we shared), shifting the colour of the scratch marks also shifts the colour of the surface they're on. This can cause them to still be very difficult to see. These new scratch marks have a white glow to them, making them stand out regardless of the colour of object they're on.
I'll leave it to all of you to discuss, but to be clear, it's not meant to be easy to lose the killer while sprinting around. The entire purpose of scratch marks is to reveal your location. If you want to sneak, you shouldn't be sprinting. This is by design.
If that is the intention of scratch marks, then why do survivors get free stealth when they run around the swamp map?
The swamp is filled with thick grass, and scratch marks can’t appear on the thick grass, and instead get hidden on the ground, underneath the grass. In fact, any object that lacks collision can’t have scratch marks show up on them.
Other maps, like the farm maps, can have large areas of grass, and it’s difficult to see scratch marks there too.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3773638#Comment_3773638
It would help, because it would make it more difficult for excessively hiding survivor to escape, which means they won't be rewarded as much for their anti-teamwork behavior.
But that's operating under the assumption that all the perma-hiders will swap to an active and engaged playstyle, and there's no reason to assume they would.
If they don't swap to that style, their chances of survival probably increase because they'll be taking fewer risks and can just make a hatch-play with greater consistency.
Also, Distortion users that excessively hide from the killer, are a problem for the whole team, even though they are "work on gens… and more". Unless the "and more" involves helping with chases, it's a problem for the team. They are still a burden to their team, because they are forcing their teammates to carry them with extra chases.
But that's compared to a full-active player, instead of a perma-hider without Distortion. That's my point.
There are a lot of people that are only excessively hiding, because there is a quick and easy perk that enables this playstyle. If this perk is nerfed good enough, some of these people absolutely will go to a more active playstyle. And it doesn't matter if this number isn't 100%, because as long as it's higher than 0%, that is good enough.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3773538#Comment_3773538
Would it, though?
Someone that wants to perma-hide, with Distortion, is able to work on gens, heal allies, do totems, and more. They can actually contribute.
Without Distortion, if someone wants to perma-hide, they can just sit in a locker for the entire match.
Axing Distortion might just make perma-hiders a bigger problem because now they're not doing gens anymore.
It would help, because it would make it more difficult for excessively hiding survivor to escape, which means they won't be rewarded as much for their anti-teamwork behavior.
Also, Distortion users that excessively hide from the killer, are a problem for the whole team, even though they are "work on gens… and more". Unless the "and more" involves helping with chases, it's a problem for the team. They are still a burden to their team, because they are forcing their teammates to carry them with extra chases.
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@tjt85 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3773397#Comment_3773397
I'm not advocating for nerfing Alert. I'm saying it can be used to avoid interaction with the Killer. I know, because I've used it in a full aura build to do exactly that. My point is that I think it's not right to single out Distortion or Sole Survivor for promoting "anti-teamwork" because I don't think they actually do. I'd bet most Distortion users are still active players, they just don't want to get chased because getting into a 10 second chase wouldn't be playing to their strengths. And if you are dedicated enough, you will find a way to avoid taking agro from the Killer by sandbagging injured teammates, using lockers or finding creative uses for whatever perks are available to you. These kinds of players won't disappear from the game because Distortion gets nerfed.
The answer isn't to nerf perks, but to actually reward Survivors for playing as a team, something the current MMR system doesn't actually do. Players will continue to prioritise their own survival for as long as the only thing that matters is escaping. It's a team game but it also kind of isn't. I do get most of my escapes through the gate (something like 90%), but you don't actually have to play DBD like a team to be able to escape and I think that's an intentional design choice. Maybe the MMR system could match up survivors with similar play styles in some way, I don't know. But the game has made space for all types of players, even the ones that many other players might find a bit frustrating.
Zero people are saying the goal is to literally forbid people from excessively hiding. ZERO PEOPLE! "They'll still find a way to excessively hide" is literally not an argument, because zero people are saying it would 100% forbid it.
Should the upcoming "longer hook states" change be reverted, because you literally can't stop killers from camping, and "they'll still find a way" to camp, even if hook states are made longer?
It's literally not the point to 100% prevent something. It's to help discourage, or to make less effective. That's it! And nerfing Distortion would make excessive hiding more difficult and less effective, and that is the goal.
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@tjt85 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3773322#Comment_3773322
I mean, we could nerf all these perks. Survivors that want to play in this way will sneak around, getting in and out of lockers to hide their auras all game anyway.
We could argue that perks like Alert need a nerf because they let Survivors know where the Killer is (and therefore where not to be if they don't want to be chased). I think there's a limit to the expectations we can put on our fellow Survivors and their chosen play styles, and I think players that load into a trial to do absolutely nothing all game are not all that common.
The whole idea is that players can play however they want, if it's within the game rules… but BHVR shouldn't be encouraging problematic playstyles, by having perks available that make these playstyles much easier and effective to do.
Yes, people can always excessively hide for a "last survivor" hatch or gate escape… but it's much harder to do without perks like Distortion or Sole Survivor. BHVR's number 1 priority for survivors, should be to make solo q teams feel more like teams. And since BHVR said the solo q to SWF gap isn't primarily game information, it makes sense that the best way to address the gap is to discourage anti-teamwork.
Because remember that you can't ever 100% force killers to never ever facecamp, or excessively 3-gen, but you can make game changes to make these strategies harder to do, and less effective to do. Likewise, the goal isn't to 100% remove anti-teamwork from the game, so it's still worth it to make changes to discourage people that want to spend the entire game with an anti-teamwork strategy.
Yes, there can be a limit to the expectations placed on survivor, and it's literally somewhere between Distortion and Alert. For reals, alert? You're really going to argue that Alert encourages survivors to excessively hide? The perk that mostly happens when the killer is chasing a survivor, which isn't very exciting because the survivor UI already tells survivors when the killer is chasing someone?
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@tjt85 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3773286#Comment_3773286
I kinda credit Sole Survivor for getting me out of absolute rock bottom Survivor MMR. If you've been in enough trials where nobody else does any saving, healing or gens at all, you've got to do something to improve your chances.
So long as they've been a team player up until the point that the trial went south, I don't begrudge any of the other Survivors if they want to make a hatch play when the "team game" is obviously over.
There is a massive difference between “the survivors are definitely going to lose, and a hatch play is pretty much the only way any of the survivors can escape” and “literally decided before the game has even started, that the strategy is a hatch play”
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@Predated said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772731#Comment_3772731
Fair point, but on the other hand, having 10 super easy to trigger aura perks. Even if you fix Distortion, people are just going to run Sole Survivor instead. Even old Distortion with 3 tokens and no regen is currently S tier because of how many aura reading is going on.
There needs to be an aura reading nerf. Make some perks distance based instead of basically infinite range. Make other perks have slightly higher requirements than kick a gen for a HUGE benefit, or in that specific case, REDUCE the aura reading per hook that you gain. Start out with the 24 meters, sure, but each hook should reduce that range by at least 2 meters so that once you have 8 hooks and are still able to kick gens that often, you'd only have 8 meters of radius (which is still a large range btw, Darkness Revealed is 8 meters per locker, and that one has a cooldown of 30 seconds).Sole Survivor is an anti-teamwork perk, and should be nerfed too. In fact, all of the perks that help enable the "excessive hide, and wait for your survivors to die" strategy, should be nerfed.
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@joeyspeehole said:
I wonder what they are
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772611#Comment_3772611
So in the very beginning, when the killer's aura perks activate, you lose all of your stacks?
BHVR should look at the stats of the top 20 survivor perks, to see if Distortion has a disproportionally high escape rate via hatch, because that would show that too many Distortion users are excessively hiding and waiting for their teammates to die, so they can try to get hatch. Distortion is helping enable an unhealthy playstyle.
As I mentioned before, players can still get value out of Distortion even if tokens can't be recharged… It's just that players wouldn't be able to excessively hide for large portions of the game.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3773014#Comment_3773014
Medkits not butchered? Lets look at them new left, old right.
Brown: 1 self heal/1.5 ally heals 35% altruism | 1 heal, 25% altruism
Yellow: 1 self heal/1.5 ally heals 40% altruism | 1.5 heals, 35% altruism
Green: 1 self heal/1.5 ally heals 45% altruism | 1 heal, 50% all
Purple: 1 self heal/1.5 ally heals 50% altruism | 2 heals, 50% altruism, skill check zone sizes buffed 16%/15% Good/Great
So we went from actual variety, to a boring 5% altruistic per rank. How did they not get butchered? I mean heck, why did they even need to get rid of the Purple skill check bonuses (especially since they reduced healing Greats from 5%[1s] to 3%[0.6s] as well separately)?
Even if we can get past that, how could 16 charge toolboxes do anything of value? Sabos would NEED to be dropped to 2-3 charges per sabo, as with 6 per sabo that only allows 2(.66) sabos per box. Even then, if we were to take the Brown +50% up to the Purple +100% (which are already 16 charges each), they only yield 5.33s→8s of saved time (to not get into the skillcheck aspect). As I've already explained, a Brown Medkit saves 8s, so why should the best Toolbox only be as good as the worst medkit?
Your math isn't relevant. I see so many people use medkits, that they obviously haven't been butchered. Do you know what has been butchered? Ultimate weapon, that I've literally seen zero times since the latest nerf. That's what butchered means…where it's so bad that people don't want to use them anymore. Meanwhile, I see medkits galore, so obviously many people still think they are good.
And Alex's Toolbox is by far the best sabotage toolbox, so you shouldn't even be using a 32 charge toolbox for sabotages if you are going for the best choice. And if Alex's Toolbox really needs to be 18 charges, then just turn all the 32 charge toolboxes to 16 charges, and call it good enough. Because let's be real here… when we have 16/16/16/18/32 charges for regular toolboxes, the 32 is way out of line.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772495#Comment_3772495
I mean again, changing all toolboxes to 16 charges would be a short-sighted foolish mistake. Medkits could have been made more similar without butchering them, and yet still in their butchered state being more powerful than 32 charge toolboxes when add-ons are included for both.
You are misunderstanding the circumstances. We didn't nerf gen slowdown because of the potential for all gen slowdown. We nerfed slowdown because too many people were bringing all gen slowdown. When 3/4 Survivors start bringing the sweatlord gen builds, like Killers were, then we can nerf the Survivor sweatlord gen builds. When only 1 person per lobby (max) is bringing the sweatlord gen build, it is equivalent to 1.5 gen slowdown at most.
There is no double standard, because we aren't balancing around the worst case scenario, we are balancing around the most frequent/common scenario. If we were balancing around the worst extremes, there would have been Killer bans for Survivor by now, Map bans for Killer by now, bleedouts would give the Killer a temp ban, hiding without touching gens for 10m would result in an entity kill and a temp ban, and more.
Medkits aren't butchered. I still see a lot of people use them.
Similarly, changing all toolboxes to be 16 charges, won't butcher them either. They'll still be useful for repairing generators, and they can still easily sabotage hooks.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772783#Comment_3772783
Distortion would become useless without a reliable way to recharge it. They only have to make the recharge slower, but I doubt that they will make a fair nerf, they will probably make it useless. Also distortion is necessary for as a way against aura reading since we have so many (strong) aura perks.
The only thing I don‘t understand about this perk is why it hides scratch marks.
Distortion won't be useless if it couldn't be recharged. It still would announce most of the killer's aura perks to the survivor, so the survivor could manually avoid them. For example, Distortion will tell the survivor of the killer has perks like BBQ or Nowhere to Hide, so the survivor could know if they need to hide from those perks. And that value still happens even if the tokens can't be recharged.
And no, Distortion isn't necessary at all. Anti-teamwork perks are never necessary for the game.
@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772760#Comment_3772760
That’s extremely unlikely to happen since he is one of the strongest killers.
Billy's "crouch tech" exploit isn't how the game is intended to work, and should be fixed. If Billy needs balance adjustments afterwards that is fine. But we shouldn't be encouraging BHVR to leave obvious bugs in the game, just because they are a quick and easy counterplay.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772611#Comment_3772611
And what about the umpteen killer perks and add-ons that provide aura reading? Do those receive any changes or nah?
Ultimate weapon already got nerfed into the ground, and Weave attunement is already on the roadmap to be changed.
If tracking perks are too powerful, then they should be looked at individually. And there are healthier perks that block auras, like OTR, that exist for anti-tunneling, instead of encouraging survivors to excessively hide.
Having Distortion limited to 3 or 4 uses per game, places Distortion in line with perks like OTR. It’s better for the game, if the “excessively hide” perks are nerfed, and changed to be more of a limited duration anti-tunnel perks, or limited edition “helps escape chases” perks.
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Also, the most important Billy change that needs to be made, is to remove the "crouch tech" exploit. Billy's chainsaw should be able to hit a crouching survivor just as easily as it can hit a standing survivor.
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@adam1233467 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772611#Comment_3772611
Killers nowadays have to many aura reading perks, distortion needs a recharge system but what do we have today is to easy to get tokens back.
Distortion is the way wrong to make an anti-tracking perk, because it's available way too much. Anti-tracking perks should be more like OTR, where it's available for a limited number of times per game, for a limited amount of time each activation. Allowing tokens to recharge is still too much uptime.
BHVR said the biggest gap between solo q and SWF, is that solo q has less teamwork. And Distortion is often used as an anti-teamwork perk, where survivors will excessively hide, and lower the team's overall chances of survival in the process.
There is also the issue that killer slowdown perks are often valued way higher than killer tracking perks, and perks like Distortion are at fault. Slowdown perks can always give value, but tracking perks can often be bypassed with things like Distortion. It's best for game balance that perks like DIstortion get nerfed.
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@adam1233467 said:
Just make distortion do not recharge on chases please 🙏
I'd rather Distortion be nerfed with the same amount of energy as Ultimate Weapon. I've seen ZERO killers use Ultimate Weapon since the last nerf.
Distortion should be reverted to the 2.4.0 or 5.5.0 version, where the tokens can't be recharged at all.
Or make it so survivors can't see how many tokens the perk has, so they can't quickly determine what aura reading perks the killer has. This is even worse in a SWF, where one person uses voice comms to announce the killer's aura perks to everyone else.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772200#Comment_3772200
they omitted a key problem in his design. His teleport is too dependant on locker placement. he has nothing in his kit to mitigate rng. I agree that he might still be garbage. I also bet they'll nerf his add-on's like Mal thinker skull so it might not really a buff. a side-grade.
I thought the key problem was that he is mostly an M1 killer in chases, and the PTB changes won't help fix that. Dredge will still be a "if it tries to use its chase power, then the survivor can usually just run away to the next loop or tile" killer.
@BOOTtoFACE said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772526#Comment_3772526
What changes have you made for nemesis addons?
Marvin's blood is probably nerfed, which would mean that Nemesis might be getting nerfed, because it would probably take more overall hits to reach T3.
The problem is that if T1 to T2 is reduced to 5 points, then the current Marvin's Blood can reach that in 2 hits on the same survivor. Marvin's blood would need to be nerfed to be less than +0.50 points, to prevent this. But if a nerf that big happens, without the T2 to T3 requirement being reduced, then BHVR is nerfing every Nemesis player that uses current Marvin's Blood.
Because let's be real, T3 is where his power really shines. And if these changes are going to make it more difficult to reach T3, then it's not worth it.
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BHVR has been nerfing scratchmarks over and over, for a long time. The current scratchmarks are still not anywhere near as good as they used to be.
And we never get the full story. We might get told things like "we haven't changed the scratchmarks for a while", but we aren't told if the newer environmental objects just aren't properly working with scratchmarks, which means there is a major loophole where "the scratchmark rules weren't changed" but "yeah, the scratchmarks are definitely worse now". And it doesn't matter what the semantics are. There are definitely videos and screenshots out there, of what the scratchmarks used to look like.
The same thing happens with sound occlusion, where BHVR will secretly change sound occlusion, and not make it public knowledge. Did you know that Spirit's directional phasing audio originally respected sound occlusion? But later BHVR secretly changed it so it doesn't respect sound occlusion at all? There are still videos out there, of Spirit's directional phasing audio getting muffled or deleted when there is an object between the survivor and killer, so we do have proof it used to respect sound occlusion.
It's the same thing with the forced short M1 attack bug, that can steal hits from the killer. BHVR refuses to comment on it, even though it can steal hits from the killer in every single game that happens.
The killer side is full of secret mechanics and changes, to secretly balance the killer side.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771610#Comment_3771610
Gen speeds were fine with 80s gens and 25% max Pop and 0% basekit on kicks. Gen speeds were fine with 90s gens and 30% current Pop and 5% max basekit on kicks. Gen speeds only weren't fine with 4 gen slowdowns, or things that were effectively 4 gen slowdowns (infinite respawning Ruin+Undying without perfect RNG), and insta full gen BNPs. We hard deleted BNP's capabilities, but we couldn't do the same with gen slowdown.
Toolboxes come pre-nerfed compared to every other item in the game, due to how their bonus works. You get the % bonus for the X charges worth of progress, not X seconds. That means a 50% 32 charge toolbox is only progressing 32 charges in 21.33s (and draining it to 0 toolbox charges), or in other words, saving 10.66s. A Brown medkit takes 24s to self-heal compared to the base altruistic heal of 16sx2 or 32s, saving 8s. That means the best gen toolbox is only ~33% better at saving time than the worst medkit.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771715#Comment_3771715
Killer gen slowdown perks were nerfed because too many sweatlord Killers were stacking 4 gen slowdown and ruined the game for the rest of us. I used to comfortably run only PR on Ghostface as my sole gen slowdown. I still do, but I used to too. If there was a unique perk buff (that only applied to gen slowdown) then that would be ideal. Something like 25%-50% more regression/longer blocked durations (respectively) if that is the only gen slowdown perk selected. That also means it could still function with Killer add-on forms of regression (for the rare few they deem 'worthy'/'deserving' of having such an add-on). Personally I don't stack Driver's License with PR, and use one or the other, but the option would be available for people.
The flaw of all Toolboxes having the same amount of charges is the same flaw of all medkits having the same amount of charges. It was a mistake, and I'd hoped we had learned from it. Medkits needed a nerf, but not the boring one we got. The Purple should have kept 32 charges, and the Green should have lost the self-inefficiencies (and remain at 16 charges). All the medkits are now pathetically dissimilar, and we don't need the same mistake to be applied to Toolboxes, especially given the (in)efficiency of Toolboxes as is. I would only agree to such a change if Sabo's were dropped to something like 2-3 charges per Sabo. Nerfing charges also nerfs Sabos, and any theoretical Toolbox nerf should only target gen progression. Nerfing Alex's Toolbox charge count was also a mistake in the Sabo rework patch.
Survivors stacking items is a bit different of an issue, and the 2v8 class mechanic is a good limiter (no more than half of the lobby can be one class). Maybe try 2 of the same class of item per lobby, although make it known if your item is 'disarmed'. Maybe I need a heal tome, and I'd need to back out to use my medkit in a different lobby. Alternatively, only allow items and characters to be changed before you ready, but that might be annoying unless we had a strictly ranked mode for that limitation, and an unranked mode without.
Survivors stacking generator stuff, is only a problem because 32 charge toolboxes exist. None of the survivor generator perks or addons need to be changed, if all the toolboxes are set to 16 charges. And yes, it's the same concept of medkits, where they needed to be made more similar in order to properly balance them.
And if it's ok to evaluate killer generator perks as if a killer is running a full slowdown build, then we need to evaluate survivor generator perks/item/addons as if a survivor is running a full generator build. And it doesn't matter if toolboxes were already nerfed in the past, because many things in this game get nerfed more than once.
We're basically having a huge double standard here, where we evaluate killers when they are being their most optimal (i.e. the optimal slowdown build), but then we evaluate survivors based on them being average and inefficient (i.e. just having a toolbox with zero generator perks).
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It’s not proportional though, because killer generator perks have been massively nerfed since then… but survivor generator stuff is still just as strong as it used to be.
And there is way too much value, when survivor generator stuff is stacked with a 32 charge toolbox.
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@th3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771643#Comment_3771643
Everything I've described has happened, and yet the same complaints about gen speeds persist. What will you be satisfied with because it really seems like you won't be satisified with any result other than the killer winning.
Killer generator perks have been nerfed multiple times. And sometimes we are directly told it’s because killer generator perks need to be balanced around the possibility of killers stacking multiple of them together.
The same should apply to survivor generator perks/item/addons. The survivor generator stuff should be balanced around the possibility of survivors stacking multiple of them, and the fact that some toolboxes have 32 charges, is what causes all the stacking issues.
And let’s be real here. My only suggestion was for all toolboxes to have 16 charges, and that would make me happy. We don’t need to slippery slope here, that I’ll keep moving the goalposts until survivors auto-lose every game. Literally just make all toolboxes have 16 charges…… that’s it.
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@th3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771610#Comment_3771610
Gen speeds were too quick when toolboxes had 90-180 charges in them. Now they are too quick when toolboxes have 16-52 charges, skill checks only give out 1% bonus progression to the gen, gens have 10 additional charges, and coop inefficiency is buffed to 15%. Will gen's always be too fast or will they be just right when you can end the game at 4 gens every time as killer?
We don’t need to make a slippery slope fallacy.
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It should have been implemented with an update for toolboxes, that changes all toolboxes to only have 16 charges.
Generator speeds are too quick, when survivors stack generator perks/addons with a 32 charge toolbox.
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Am I the only person that thinks a 20 second cooldown AoE Sprint Burst, is way better than equipping 4 perks?
The cooldown is so quick that I’ve been able to get a lot of 99% sprint bursts in chase, so I can use it to “dead hard for distance” in chase. There has even been a few times where I’ve successfully let a teammate dodge a hit because I timed the AoE sprint burst while near them.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3770751#Comment_3770751
If Nurse decides to just go solo, that mean her teammate is going solo too. That isn’t good for the killer team.
what is bad for killer team? If two killer individual win chases, they're more time efficient than if they down 1 survivor. Of course, this implies that your actually able to win chases and nurse is definitely able to win the chases solo.
Nurse synergies with all killers except trapper. Trapper is just really bad in this mode. it is not impractical for trapper to defend 6 gens and he has no vantage points to camp. like there is no hooks or anything to really coral survivors into trapped area. furthermore, scout existing as a class for trapper is terrible. Like you'll just being wall-hacked 24/7 on every trap placement. It is not exactly easy to down survivor with +30 pallets and strong setups like…. triple pallet into T-L wall windows. ok that is enough ranting about trapper.
Wraith + Nurse is strong because Wraith doesn't need chase people in this mode. He can hit & run. Find people out of position, injure them, leave them. injure them, leave them. As wraith injures people, Nurse is able to find chases with survivor that are injured. Injured+Nurse chase = Exposed nurse. Do we need explain how Nurse+Exposed = winning strategy?
Huntress+Nurse is lone gunner gameplay. Huntress is great at the chase. She doesn't need any help at chasing. Huntress downs people. Nurse should not need help downing survivors. Since both killer are always split up, they're always most efficient at applying pressure. Nurse in her element.
Billy+Nurse: Nurse needs win chases vs healthy survivors and put them in cages. When survivors go to cages, they are injured. Billy just needs find people that are injured preferably just as they caged. Survivor are injured = exposed. If billy is always chasing survivors that are injured, he doesn't need exposed. billy needs to be good at curving/1vs1 when you find injured survivors. obviously, you as billy rely on nurse to be good. if nurse is bad at downing people, than billy has no injured survivors to chase. For him, it is not worth it to be chasing healthy survivors. He wants injured people so he doesn't need land his chainsaw curve twice.
The biggest issue with Nurse in 2v8 is that many survivors don’t seem to be aware that the game alerts them if they are revealed… and if they are revealed, and they hear Nurse charging a blink, they should assume Nurse might be going after them, and should be moving unpredictably.
But when I see a Nurse streamer, look at a revealed survivor hiding behind something, and the survivor doesn’t move at all and gets hit with a blink attack… that doesn’t mean Nurse is overpowered. It means the survivors don’t really understand the game mode mechanics.
killer queues fairely long and there is not enough survivors playing, so it seems. so you just get survivors with all different skill-levels… lots of which.are not playing survivor… very well.
Killers going solo isn’t efficient if it causes one or both of the killers to have much longer chase times.
If MMR messes up so badly, that the killer’s MMR is so way above the survivors MMR, that Nurse can quickly solo large 2v8 maps… then the same thing would happen if the killer was Billy instead, and the Billy player would probably be quicker because his map mobility is so much better.
The easiest and most effective 2v8 strategy for killers, when MMR isn’t completely lopsided in the killers favor, is to have at least one of the killers be Billy or Wraith, and for the killer team to go for pincer attacks. Of course, if there is only one fast killer, they can zoom ahead and start attacking solo, but when the 2nd killer catches up to them, the strategy should be pincer attacks.
And Nurse doesn’t count as a fast mobility killer, so Nurse + Huntress isn’t actually one of the best combinations. In fact, if I’m playing solo q 2v8 as Billy, I would much rather my teammate be Huntress instead of Nurse. It’s much easier to set up pincer attacks with Huntress because she can’t teleport, and Huntress is punished way less for missed hits than Nurse.
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Survivors should auto-cage immediately, or after 60 seconds.
…But if a survivor is caged, and a killer goes near them, either while they are still caged, or within 15 seconds of them being uncaged, then that survivor should be teleported somewhere random on the map, and fully healed.
That would fix slugging, and fix cage tunneling.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3770530#Comment_3770530
have you seen some of 2vs8 loop design in the game? Some of setup are so strong for survivor that you can loop killer for like multiple gens… in a 1vs1.
an advantage that nurse has over other killers is that she doesn't care about loop design in 2vs8. She doesn't need to stick with other killers to be relevant. She is just be a lone-gunner killer that consistently downs people.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3770369#Comment_3770369
escapist is really strong even vs nurse. the sprint burst has 20 second cooldown and allows survivor to just pre-run constantly. if a survivor in chase, you can stay out of radius of scout and as soon you enter radius as nurse is blinking, you can sprint burst mid-chase.
I'd say game mode is relatively balanced. Maybe it leans a little bit more into survivor if all 8 survivor are really good but with current matchmaking and huge bloodpoint incentives, you are getting very random teammates…. lots of which not experienced. as a result, it may look like killer is stronger. the experience of survivor likely plays biggest role at the moment. killer can chase weak links in 2vs8 mode and ignore the strong-links. when everyone is strong link, the game probably more skewed towards survivor.
If Nurse decides to just go solo, that mean her teammate is going solo too. That isn’t good for the killer team.
And this whole thing about “Nurse doesn’t care about loop design” is misleading. Nurse cares about line of sight blockers, more than any other killer in the game. Her mobility is also really garbage if she’s stuck floating around trying to figure out where to blink, or if she is making short or mid distance blinks that don’t end in a hit.
The biggest issue with Nurse in 2v8 is that many survivors don’t seem to be aware that the game alerts them if they are revealed… and if they are revealed, and they hear Nurse charging a blink, they should assume Nurse might be going after them, and should be moving unpredictably.
But when I see a Nurse streamer, look at a revealed survivor hiding behind something, and the survivor doesn’t move at all and gets hit with a blink attack… that doesn’t mean Nurse is overpowered. It means the survivors don’t really understand the game mode mechanics.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3770377#Comment_3770377
That is completely besides the point. She basically has no counterplay in chase especially with the extemded lunge and a free 3rd blink for being near the other killer as well only makes it worse considering that she has all of these effects at once, which she couldn't achieve previously because a killer only has 2 addon slots.
Also, the addon nerfs happened for a reason. She remains the strongest killer in the game and yet she is also by the killer with by far the most buffs in 2v8 and the only killer to have a "team" skill that doesn't benefits her team mate. Compare that to what they did with Trapper. Why couldn't Trapper get haste for 5 seconds and 100% extra setting speed? Why not give him aura vision when a trap is disabled? Or give him haste for that as well. Same with Wraith. Why wasn't his lunge extended? Why wasn't his breaking speed increased? Why doesn't he get more speed while cloaked to make up for bigger maps (9% doesn't cut it). Billy's insta down had to be removed from the chainsaw because that would have been too strong (according to the devs). To compensate they gave him Spiked Boots and Low Kickback Chains base kit for maps that have so much clutter on them, that you don't get to use them anyway. And on top of that he has a team skill, that is worse than his normal power.
So overall, the strongest killer in the game received the most and the strongest buffs for 2v8. Does that sound right to you? To me it doesn't.
Nurse isn’t the best killer in the game, for the vast majority of the player base. This is why having tier lists based off of the top 0.00001% of players , is dangerous and misleading to this game.
This is why there should be tier lists for the various MMR brackets, so people can show that at most of the MMR levels, Nurse isn’t anywhere close to overperforming at all.
Nurse didn’t receive the “strongest buffs”, because the much larger 2v8 maps, are a giant nerf to Nurse. And the “buffs” given to Nurse for 2v8, don’t even properly compensate her for the much larger maps.
It’s very sad that so few people understand how map changes can be buffs or nerfs for certain killers. It’s like when the maps changed to have way less low-walled loops, and have much more high-walled clutter… it was a huge nerf to Huntress, which is why she was later buffed. But a bunch of people complained, because they didn’t understand at all why she was buffed.
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@Xernoton said:
It swings wildly depending on the map, combination of killers, SWFs and KWFs (it's gonna take a while to get used to this acronym) as well as the survivor classes. It can really go either way.
I'd say, that both sides have some things that are overpowered. For example Nurse. Why did she have to be the killer to receive the most buffs? She is the strongest killer in the game anyway. There isn't much point in trying to delay her, when her lunge is that long and she can make up for any mistakes she made anyway. And 3 blinks only make this more ridiculous.
On the other hand, survivors have the scout class, that can reveal both killers almost constantly. I had a match against a Huntress and Trapper duo and we all saw them for the entire game. Needless to say, they didn't stand a chance. The escapist class is just as strong against everyone but Nurse. If a Trapper is chasing after you and you get that SB, they will almost guaranteed have to give up on that chase.
So both sides are busted and 2v8 is both balanced and unbalanced. In other words; it's pure chaos.
Soooooo, everyone is aware that all the Nurse “buffs” still makes her weaker than she was before the addon nerfs, right?????
Because allowing Nurse to equip pre-nerfed range and recharge addons, would make her way more powerful than these 2v8 “buffs”, which are mostly low rarity post-nerfed addons.
Nurse’s map traversal speed is still garbage in 2v8, and the maps are huge.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3770295#Comment_3770295
Well, there is some merit to this for sure.
Trouble is MMR is very clearly off, as I find myself being matched with survivors who don't do gens, who hide in corner and go down instantly. The fact MMR is off makes this mode feel very killer sided… dependent on matchmaking RNG.
If I get good team mates who actually do gens then yeah sure, it feels like its survivor sided. But most matches this is not the case due to MMR being off and my average lobby is full of terrible survivors
Many of the survivors that aren’t repairing generators, are doing so because of the class system.
I want stats on average number of generators repairing, per class, per game….. so we can see if the medic class is averaging way lower than average. I’m also wondering if a lot of scouts are also repairing below average, because they want to follow around the killers instead of helping repair.
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3769844#Comment_3769844
I've been killed twice right out of the pod. I chalk it up to simple bad luck and I moved on to the next game.
I wouldn't call that "incredibly unfun" but I guess we all have our thresholds.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3769848#Comment_3769848
I have no idea how they can do that without cheating. In my experience the position is kind of random so without clear information it's a bad time investment.
I'd be nice to know how predictable the pod spawn is, e.g. asking to the devs.
The cage spawns aren’t very random, which is why the cages often get clumped together if the killers knock down multiple survivors in the same area.
I’ve seen killers just move around the edges of the map, which often finds the cages. I’ve also been in “musical cages”, where I’m in a cage, and I’m teleported somewhere else multiple times, because the killers kept showing up where my cage has spawned.
For reals, did BHVR just reuse Pyramid Head’s cage spawning rules, even though they’ve gotten complaints in the past that these spawning rules are too predictable?
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3769616#Comment_3769616
map is too big to make the class viable
Literally all you needed to say. If you think this class should constantly run across the map and only heal each other, then don't blame class in your own bad game understanding.
escapist save a lot more time
This is my favourite, because 80% of time people use like this: wait for killer will start breathing in their faces and then start running. And then eat hatchet, Nurse's blink or Billy/Wraith catch them up in 5 seconds. And ONLY in cases where only one killer hunts you, because against two killers this class literally, and I mean LITERALLY, pointless.
Guide is only useful in terms of saving time if we assume that survivors group up on gens (already less effective tactic, but let's ignore it) and constantly hit great skill checks. Should I continue here? With 50% of people here barely understanding on what button they should do gens? And I can agree that in swf of full experienced people this class can be best, but in real matches, where at least half of team is not your buddys… nah, probably worst.
Scout's the only way to win time is giving wallhack on killer to teammates in chase, and he should be off gen, so I won't even start elaborate on this absolutely L take.
While Medic is guaranteed value no matter what. Yeah, definately worst class, of course. No surprises at all why most people have this opinion.An AoE sprint burst on a 20 second cooldown, is by far the most useful survivor class ability.
I would even say the best survivor comp is 8 escapists. Something like 6 escapists and 2 scouts also works, if the scouts are trying to prioritize generators instead of wasting time following the killers around the map.
The only good thing about Guide, is if they purposely try to go for high priority generators that need to be burst down, and hope their solo q teammates run to their highlighted generator. And high priority generators are the biggest cluster of generators, that should be broken up, so when the team is down to 1 generator, the remaining generators are spread apart a good distance.
Medics are useless, and more than 2 medics on the same team is like throwing the game.
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Medics are the worst survivor class in solo q, because they often just waste a bunch of time. The time they save with their increased healing speed, is totally drowned out by how much time they waste running around the map, just to find out that someone else got to the injured or caged survivor first.
For reals, if you want to help heal survivors, it would be better to pick guide, so that injured survivors can run to your highlighted generator if they are struggling to find someone to heal them. 2v8 works best for survivors when the maximum number of survivors are repairing.
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Billy is mostly useful to zone survivors towards their teammate. For example, if Billy and Huntress are chasing the same survivor, Billy can use his fast movement to zoom past the survivor, and try to push the survivor towards Huntress. It's the same reason why Wraith is decent in this game mode. When one of the killers can easily move way faster than survivors, it makes it way easier for the killers to pincer attack a survivor.
This is also the reason why Trapper and Huntress are the weakest killer duo in 2v8. Both of them move so slowly, that they can just spend way too much time holding W, to chase survivors, because neither of them can zoom at high speed to quickly set up a pincer attack. This will increasingly become a problem with 2v8, if more killers are added to the game mode, because any duo pair that has two killers that are stuck moving at default speed, are going to struggle to zone survivors into a pincer attack.
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I’m saying that if only 5 killers are allowed to be in 2v8, then BHVR should be picking 5 "move around the map" killers, so that both killers can have interactive experiences with each other.
Yes, I'm saying Trapper shouldn't have been one of the 5 killers in 2v8. I don't care if he was one of the original killers, because "camp an area" killers don't belong in 2v8. For reals, Doctor should have been in 2v8 instead of Trapper, so that we could have 5 killers that could be easily adapted to this mode.
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I’m saying that if Trapper is going to be in 2v8, he needs a rework, or a lot of buffs that allow him to be way more mobile.
When Trappers basically sit in one area the entire game, it’s frustrating for the other killer. Many killers that sign up for 2v8, want to have an interactive experience with the other killer. They don’t want to roam the map by themselves, while Trapper camps the same area the entire game.
I’ve seen multiple killers DC after their Trapper teammate decided to camp one area for the entire game, and I think killers need to be VERY frustrated if they are going to DC, considering they probably had to wait 20 minutes in queue.
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For 2v8, give survivors basekit voice comms, and allow them to select which languages they know.
…Because that would be a REAL incentive for survivors to queue in 2v8. Because it would give solo q survivors something extremely above and beyond what the normal game mode has.
And if 8 survivors on voice comms is too chaotic, then give survivors map pings, or chat wheels, or anything else that's unavailable in the normal mode.
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@MagicDragon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3767889#Comment_3767889
it's not that survivors don't want to play against a KWF pair, it's that everyone wants to queue as a KWF pair.
I don't think "everyone" is playing in a KWF pair. I think there are a lot of people queuing as solo killer in 2v8, because it is still a new game experience for killers.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768134#Comment_3768134
Is it all that much of a buff if it'll never come into effect if you play the game normally?
It's apparently enough of a buff that you keep defending that it needs to happen. If it's really not big of a deal, then auto-cages after 30 or 60 seconds should be a fine alternative.
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@Peanits said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768108#Comment_3768108
Quick heads up, there's a checkbox at the bottom of the screen that'll make it so you never see it again. If you don't want to see it anymore, we absolutely understand that and we don't want to force it on you.
As HaunterofShadows mentioned above, many people don't follow the game on social media or keep up with livestreams. We still want to let them know that there is a new game coming in the DBD universe in case it's of any interest to them.
Can we have a checkbox to bypass the mandatory chapter video too? When I double click on the DBD icon, I just want to get directly to the main menu.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768102#Comment_3768102
Wouldn't that just encourage more slugging?
Realistically it only takes a couple of seconds at most when caging someone. If you don't want to put in the minimal amount of effort it takes to progress the game, then you shouldn't be rewarded for it.
Because there is a way to correct the bad behavior without it being a survivor buff. If survivors want to be caged instead of slugged, then "the game eventually forces the survivor to be caged" is a valid solution.
Otherwise, people are just fishing for free survivor buffs.
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If slugging is a problem, then the game should just auto-cage survivors that have been slugged for 30 seconds. If 30 seconds isn’t enough then make it 60 seconds.
If people are going to complain that it’s unfun to be slugged instead of caged, then the obvious solution is for the game to force the survivors to be cage.
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The real issue is the game is asking for survivors to willingly go up against a killer SWF.
Survivor SWFs that are using voice comms for competitive advantages, are pretty much the most unfun thing for killers to play against…. And now killers get to use voice comms for competitive advantages.
So of course we have a lot of people that don’t want to play survivor in 2v8.
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@Laluzi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3767550#Comment_3767550
Yeah. I mean, he deserves to be here, he's the face of the game. And he can pull off some epic snowballs. But survivors have too much rapid pressure in this game for his playstyle to work, even without the issue the giant maps pose to him. They had the right idea giving Trapper more traps to start and a little speed boost while he sets traps, but it just takes too long for him to cross the map setting things up, and because the size of the map and number of survivors makes locking down an area near-impossible and you have to play the entire map, it's too easy for survivors to disarm his traps or for traps to go off in a part of the match he can't reach in time. He can provide a lot of assistance to the other killer, but they have to carry him for the first part of the match, and if they can't pick up his slack, the killers will be scrambling on the back foot for the entire game.
Should've made him start with all of his traps, maybe then he'd have a chance - but his lack of mobility and weakness to Double Pallets Everywhere is really noticeable.
Trapper is one of the worst "face of the game" that I've ever seen in any PvP game. I don't care if the stats say he might be ok at low MMR. If BHVR can't modernize him for current DBD, then make one of the other original killers the "face of the game".
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Trapper should never have been added to this game mode. When maps are super big, and the optimal strategy is to zoom around the map to chase survivors, a killer whose entire power is "let's lock down a small area", is throwing the game.
Wraith is infinitely better than Trapper in this game mode, because at least Wraith can zoom around the map. Trapper would need major buffs to be useful in this game mode. Like, being able to remotely pick up traps, and trap setting times that are short enough to actually be useful in a chase. Nerfed Billy is even infinitely better than Trapper in this game mode, because he can at least zoom around the super big maps.