Coffeecrashing
Coffeecrashing
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3791852#Comment_3791852
Gotcha.
So, three things to say to that.
One, the goal with weakening Distortion should obviously be to make sure it isn't a hard counter to aura reading as a class. Downgrading it from being very impactful against almost every aura perk in the game to being very impactful against just two of those perks is a huge improvement, obviously, that's why I listed the others. I'm obviously not concerned with only protecting BBQ and NTH, for some reason, I'm concerned with aura reading overall.
Two, your decision to run those two perks specifically should already factor in that survivors can, if they choose to and if they realise you're running those perks, counter them. They're the two aura perks that actually have a counter, Distortion just takes the guesswork out- if Distortion were removed from the game, those would still be the two aura perks that can meaningfully and reliably be countered. If you want uncounterable aura reading (at least insofar as being able to avoid the activation), bring different perks.
Three, and this is a more minor point, my suggested change would still allow you to make sure your proc of either perk eats two tokens if a survivor isn't able to avoid it in time, as long as it's paired with Lethal Pursuer, so. It's not as though my change doesn't help those two perks too, albeit slightly indirectly.
No. The goal is to nerf the anti-teamwork players that are a burden to their teammates, AND to stop the scenarios where killers are having all their aura reading hard countered for the entire game by one perk.
And if we had to pick only one goal, it should be to nerf the anti-teamwork players that are a burden to their teammates. BHVR shouldn't be enabling anti-teamwork players with perks like Distortion, because it's unhealthy for the rest of the solo-q survivors.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3791837#Comment_3791837
I'm not sure I'm following, could you elaborate?
Do you mean that you only ever run BBQ and NTH as your aura perks?
No. It literally means that if I'm in a game where all my aura reading perks are being hard countered by Distortion, then it isn't helpful to list specific scenarios that are much better against Distortion.
For example, if at 9:03AM on 9/2/2024, I played a Trickster game with BBQ and NTH as my only aura perks, then all my aura perks are being hard countered by Distortion in that specific game. And listing specific scenarios that are much better against Distortion, doesn't help my Trickster game at 9:03AM on 9/2/2024, that was using BBQ and NTH as the only aura perks.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3791811#Comment_3791811
I mean, how, though?
Sure, if it's something like BBQ or another hook-based perk, they can let go of the gen they're doing and get in a locker to fool it, that's something. If it's Nowhere To Hide, again, there's something you can do, though it's usually pretty inefficient overall to actually try.
What exactly are they gonna do if it's like, Gearhead, though? Never hit good skill checks? What if it's A Nurse's Calling run by a stealth killer, are they never gonna heal? If they know the killer has I'm All Ears, are they never gonna vault in chase? Bitter Murmur, never finish a generator? Floods of Rage, never unhook someone?
Most info perks aren't actually easily avoided. Knowing the killer has them adds a layer to decisionmaking, but it doesn't allow you to actually avoid them activating. This goes quadruple for aura addons, by the way.
Distortion would block those perks + addons when they do activate, though, and that could be considered a problem considering how little effort it takes to do so. That's why I suggest making it weaker at doing that part.
If I'm playing a game where all my aura reading perks are being hard countered by Distortion, then it isn't helpful to list specific scenarios that are much better against Distortion, because that's not what I'm playing.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3791797#Comment_3791797
I'm not really interested in arguing about Ultimate Weapon right now.
As for the second part, you're really bouncing around a bunch of different arguments without committing to any of them here, but I don't think this one is as much of a problem as some people make it out to be either. Any stealth perk is going to enable survivors being rats and leaving their teammates to die, that doesn't mean they all warrant massive nerfs just inherently.
What we should be aiming to do is to keep Distortion's main function but make it less automatic. Sure, have it block aura reading and tell you it's activating, but also require survivors to actually have to take action if the killer's got a lot of aura reading punching through their tokens. That's a perfectly appropriate change, in my opinion, it allows Distortion to still be useful without being quite as autopilot as it currently is.
We really shouldn't be aiming to keep Distortion's main function, because the main function is unhealthy for the game. The perk shouldn't allow for survivors to easily avoid most of the killer tracking perks for the entire game. Yes, that is a big deal. If Distortion announces to the survivor that the killer has a meta aura reading perk, then the survivor knows how to easily avoid the perk for the entire game, even if they run out of Distortion tokens.
None of your suggestions fixes this problem. It doesn't matter if Distortion tokens get burnt through faster, if Distortion already told the survivor which specific aura reading perks and addons they need to dodge.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3791748#Comment_3791748
Eh, I don't think there's anything wrong with the token system it already has.
What you describe as the most problematic part is also the only unique part. I think that, if nothing else, should be kept- even if that becomes the ONLY thing it does, that should be kept, because otherwise it's not meaningfully distinct from other aura-block perks outside of being passive. It's important to keep unique parts of perks when thinking about changing them.
Not sure what the point of bringing up UW is. They're not actually linked, there's no reason they need the same approach.
The unique part is problematic, and it's not important to keep unique parts. We learned this with Ultimate Weapon, which was unique because it was the only decent tracking perk that bypassed Distortion. But BHVR nerfed it into the ground anyway. And these are linked, because one of the major selling points of Ultimate Weapon is that it bypassed Distortion.
Distortion deserves a massive nerf. It encourages unhealthy behaviors in solo q games. The biggest gap between solo q and SWF is the fact that solo q is less likely to work together, and perks like Distortion help enable an anti-teamwork playstyle.
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@jesterkind said:
Since we know it's in the upcoming PTB, I've been thinking about what changes Distortion could get that would make it still useful and strong while making it a little less of a sledgehammer levied at all aura reading builds. I think I've come up with something reasonable.
There are two changes I have in mind. The first is just kind of an obvious one because it's weird the perk currently works the way it does here, but the other is the new one I came to more recently. They are as follows:
- The perk no longer hides scratch marks.
- The perk's duration is shortened from 10 seconds to 6 seconds.
The first one, as mentioned, is self explanatory, but I want to back up the second a little.
A lot of potential nerfs for Distortion that get floated around target its tokens and their regeneration, but I think that part of the perk is okay- I think a better thing to tackle would be something related to the effect itself, and something that makes Distortion kind of annoying to face is that even pairs of aura reading aren't enough to overcome it sometimes. BBQ and Lethal, for instance, is a combined seven seconds of aura reading, and that's two perks being countered at once by a single token on a single perk. Other pairs actually counter Distortion already - Gearhead and Lethal, for example, consumes two tokens per activation - but having that be more accessible seems like a fair change to me.
Changing the duration down to six seconds does two things. It keeps the perk useful because it counters single, shorter-duration aura reading as usual + the survivor still gets notified when a token is consumed, meaning they have six seconds to get in a locker or hide behind a gen if they really don't want to be revealed, and separately, it allows killers to feel less robbed on more dedicated aura builds by a single perk since they're more likely to be punching through tokens and consuming them quicker.
What do we think?
Distortion should just block all aura reading for the first 80/100/120 seconds of the trial, then deactivate. That would greatly help the survivor avoid the first few chases, which should be good enough. One of the most problematic parts about the perk is that it announces to the survivor which aura perks the killer has, which means the survivor can just manually avoid most of the aura reading if they wanted to. And if the survivor is in a SWF, they can just announce the killer's aura perks and addons to the rest of the team.
Distortion should be nerfed with the same amount of energy that went into nerfing Ultimate Weapon, which was the only decent killer perk that countered Distortion. Asking for a light nerf for Distortion is super unfair, considering how many complaints Ultimate Weapon got over and over, until it was nerfed over and over, until it became an absolutely useless perk that I haven't seen since its latest nerf.
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I have zero motivation to play the new lights out as killer.
The whole point of lights out, is the lights are out, so the survivors might get jump scared by the killer. Giving survivors lanterns will take away many of the jump scares, which removes the whole point of the game mode.
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3789990#Comment_3789990
I get what you are saying Coffeecrashing but my question is what nefarious thing you believe BHVR might hide by not letting people see MMR. What is is you think they're doing with MMR that is so controversial? That's what I am curious about.
- The MMR numbers of some of the 5 players in a game, might sometimes be so far apart, that it might be considered unacceptable.
- If 1 player DCs, it might cause the entire game to be considered invalid, and the other players can’t gain or lose MMR in that game. Some people might consider that to be a “worthless game” that’s not worth playing.
- If a player DCs, they might not lose MMR, which means if a player thinks they might lose a game, they can protect their MMR by DCing.
- A 3k and 4k might be worth the same MMR, because BHVR might cause the 4th survivor to be worth 0 MMR.
- If there are generators left to be repaired, and the last survivor escapes through hatch, it’s worth 0 MMR… but if the killer closes hatch and the survivor escapes through a gate, then the killer might lose MMR and the survivor might gain MMR.
- The game might secretly predict if a survivor is trying the ragequit in a way that bypasses the DC penalties, and might do something if it believes a player is ragequitting too often.
- The game might have higher MMR numbers for players when they are in a SWF, if the game believes these players perform better when they are in a SWF.
- There might be a large penalty for the survivor that loses first, and the penalty might be so large that it might cause survivors to start hiding at the beginning of the match so they aren’t found first, if they knew about it.
And no, I’m not interested in you trying to argue on which of the above things might be true. That’s not the point. The point is there are things that would make people upset if they were true and made public, and those are possible things MMR might do, that would make players upset if they knew about it.
Because really, the whole “We don’t want to show MMR because we don’t want to cause players to worry about it” explanation isn’t valid. Many PvP games show MMR, and it’s completely fine.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790331#Comment_3790331
None of that is what I'm talking about. I didn't even mention reducing the number of search actions.
I'm talking about how you need to search two chests, so if you search one chest then the perk is halfway activated, but if you get downed while it's half-activated then its progress is reset to zero, meaning you have to start over from scratch.
If a survivor searches 2 chests, then gets knocked to the ground, the perk needs to deactivate, so it doesn’t become a reusable Unbreakable.
And it would have the perk text more complicated to say “if the survivor gets knocked to the ground after only 1 search then the survivor keeps the 1 search, but if they get knocked to the ground after 2 searches then the progress gets completely reset”
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We need a swamp update, because the new scratch marks are HORRIBLE on the swamp map. Like for reals, why is this so bad???
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@Caiman said:
The perk is already not very strong, but to have its progress completely reset on being downed is an overly extreme limitation. You can't open one chest, get downed, then open another chest to heal after. You have to open another two chests to make it activate. Why is this perk so constrained? It's already limited by the number of chests in the trial, the time it takes to find and open them, and the 60 second time requirement to heal.
It resets when a survivor gets knocked to the ground, so it can’t be used as an Unbreakable perk.
And it requires 2 unlocking or rummaging actions, because if the survivor also has a perk like Appraisal, they can easily unlock and rummage the same chest to meet the 2 action requirement. …And having it be changed to a 1 event, means a survivor with Appraisal can activate the perk just with an extremely quick rummaging action.
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3789507#Comment_3789507
MMR isn't a prize to be won, you can't even see what your MMR is. This situation alone that you mention here is exactly why visible MMR shouldn't be added.
Thought echnically, this doesn't even really solve lobby dodging - just makes the biggest reason why it was done a non-issue. Sure people won't dodge based on prestige anymore, but now they will dodge based on cosmetics, vibes, items held, etc. The issue has not changed any.
I still think the prestige removal was a step in the right direction, just to eliminate targeting p100s or people in Surv lobbies dodging p0s.My whole point was that the only valid reason for hiding MMR is if it’s doing something very controversial, that would be made public if everyone could see MMR.
Which is a problem, because it assumes BHVR is purposely hiding something for us, that they know we wouldn’t like. It’s kind of like how the forced short M1 attack bug, that can steal hits from the killer, is purposely not being acknowledged… even though there’s actual proof the game is forcing short m1 attacks as part of proximity checks, that are completely separate from the hit validation checks.
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3789464#Comment_3789464
But I don't see how DCs actually affect matchmaking aside from lobby dodging. Don't you neither gain nor lose it if you DC or are DCed?
My example is about what happens to everyone else in the match if a survivor DCs. If a survivor DCing invalidates the match, and causes the 4 other players to be unable to gain or lose MMR that game, then the other 4 players might want to DC if they consider it to be a "worthless" game.
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3788962#Comment_3788962
I really do not see what they could possibly be doing with MMR that is so controversial, it's just a number used to matchmake…
You know how the official stats don't use games that have a DC? What if games that have a DC are considered invalid for MMR, and the other players don't gain or lose MMR in those games? If that is true, and that knowledge becomes public, then if someone DCs in a game, it might cause the other players to feel like the game is worthless, and they would be more likely to ragequit as well.
It's stuff like that, where people would get upset if the MMR formula doesn't match what they personally feel should be MMR gains or losses.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3789009#Comment_3789009
There are, in my mind, only two ways to go about this.
You can always hide MMR and never have it be shown. This is how the devs have chosen to do it and imo it's the correct way.
The other option would be to always show MMR. Everywhere. With no option to shut it off. It shows up on the lobby, end game screen, and in game HUD. There's a watermark on every screenshot and recorded video that displays your name and MMR like some places do with NDA content. You're forced to link your game account to the forums, and your MMR is also shown here permanently on every post as well.
If the second option sounds toxic, that's exactly the kind of problem that showing MMR can cause. In addition to just allowing people to manipulate it for easier games (which is what happened with grades back in the day).
Or BHVR could just show MMR on the end game screen, and that’s it. Most PvP games show MMR to all players, and it’s completely fine.
There is often so much drama on these forums, that “showing MMR might cause drama” isn’t really an argument.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3788962#Comment_3788962
I think it’s much more likely that the MMR formula is doing something controversial
How did you determine that is more likely?
Because BHVR refuses to give us information on how MMR works in various situations. There is a big difference between “players shouldn’t worry about their own MMR number” and “players aren’t allowed to know how MMR works”.
- If a survivor DCs, does the killer gain MMR? Does the DCing survivor lose MMR? Does everyone just get their MMR frozen that match because someone DCed?
- If a survivor makes self unhook attempts, then fails hook struggle checks, does the game consider that to be like a DC, and therefore might do things like cause everyone’s MMR to be frozen?
- If the survivors didn’t repair 5 generators, there is only 1 survivor left, the killer closes hatch, and the survivor escapes through a gate, does the survivor gain MMR? Does the killer lose MMR? Or is it just like a hatch escape, where it’s 0 MMR?
- Do killers gain a decent amount of MMR if they sweat for the 4k, or is the 4th survivor worth 0 (or close to 0) MMR?
- How often are all 5 players near the same MMR? How often is there at least 1 player, whose MMR is so far away from the other players, that they really shouldn’t have been thrown into that game?
- How much does “team based MMR” affect survivor MMR? If a survivor escapes through the gate in a 3k game, is it worth a lot less MMR than if it was a 1k game, because it was a bigger team win? Does a survivor lose a lot less MMR, if they lose in a 1k game than if they lose a 4k game? Does the first survivor that loses, get a much harsher MMR penalty than the third survivor that loses?
- If a survivor loses or escapes, does their MMR change get calculated immediately, or does it wait until the match is over before being calculated?
- When killers have large win streaks, are they actually at the MMR soft cap, or did they find a way to manipulate their MMR, and are having win streaks because they aren’t being matched at their appropriate skill level?
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3788356#Comment_3788356
Because the Devs do not want to further encourage sweat or a competitive mindset in this game, because it seems like they define the game as more casual than the playerbase defines it.
That alone tells us we probably all need to chill, right?No. I think it’s much more likely that the MMR formula is doing something controversial, and players would figure it out if they knew their MMR numbers.
Also, it would cause streamer drama, as it would prove that some of the streamers are keeping their MMR low, so they look better in the games they stream.
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If killers got a quick and easy way to ragequit, that bypasses the DC penalties, then we would see a lot more killers ragequitting.
…And that would prove that having a quick way to bypass DC penalties, causes a lot of ragequitting.
…And that would prove that the survivor ragequitting problem is partially caused by the fact that survivors are allowed to speed through all the hook stages, by attempting self unhooks and failing hook struggle checks.
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@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3788152#Comment_3788152
The issue is lobby dodging from both survivors and killers, its not just one side.
It's why the decision was taken after we ran A/B tests and received very positive feedback, to remove the Prestige icons from the lobbies totally. I am aware that it's not going to please everyone, but as I said, unfortunately making this an option is just not possible as it would not resolve the issue. Players would dodge some that are hidden or then some that are shown - creating even more of a lobby dodging issue than we have right now.
I still don’t understand why we can’t see MMR brackets, like we can in just about every other PvP game I’ve ever played.
Why is it completely fine for other games to have MMR brackets like Silver 2 and Gold 1, and show them to other players, but it would be considered super extra wrong if this game did this?
If the MMR matchmaking worked properly, it would show everyone is reasonably near the same MMR bracket, which would give people confidence they are being matched fairly.
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@ChaosWam said:
I've actually noticed the improvements and it's been amazing after the previous issues.
Though I haven't seen swamp yet, perhaps it's specific to that realm?
Swamp is filled with tall grass, and scratchmarks don't show on tall grass (or anything else that doesn't have collision). Scratchmarks are also bugged on objects with holes or gaps, like this giant net on the wall, these wooden planks above the giant net on the wall, and these stairs that have gaps in between them.
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@HolyDarky said:
I just played a few matches and it feels like the improved Scratch Marks are not working, especially on the Swamp map they got even worst.
Does anyone have similar experiences?
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/1QJPB7UM10EG/image.png
The new scratchmarks are bugged on some objects. Any object that doesn't have collision, like the tall grass on the swamp maps, can't show scratchmarks, which means the scratchmarks get hidden under the grass.
Other objects, like this giant net, also don't show scratchmarks correctly, as the scratchmarks can't show up on the holes in the net.
We were told the entire point of the scratchmark update, was to make sure the scratchmarks showed up properly on all objects. The survivor in this picture ran right through the grass, and up the stairs, and you can see her on the top of the stairs. These scratchmarks should be WAY easier to see.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/R50VMAVVX8P5/image.png
Are these stairs just bugged for scratchmarks too? Here is another picture of a survivor running up the stairs, and the scratchmarks are barely there too. Are they trying (and failing) to spawn on the empty spaces between the stairs?
I'm having the same experiences, so I opened this bug report. The new scratchmarks are AWFUL on the swamp maps.
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Just so we’re all on the same page, I’m not saying the DC penalties should be raised. I’m literally just saying that BHVR should remove the quick and easy loophole that allows ragequitting survivors to bypass DC penalties.
Removing self unhooks (unless 100% chance to succeed), and removing hook struggle skill checks, is literally just removing mechanics that survivors are using as exploits to bypass DC penalties. People are even admitting they are exploiting hooks to bypass DC penalties. Why is that acceptable? How is that within the game rules?
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@NightWolfsFury said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3786478#Comment_3786478
if I’m going against a 4 gen slow, 3 gen patrolling Skull Merchant, NOTHING is keeping me in that match. I WILL just boot up another game and alternate between looking to see if I was hooked and killed and go back to my other game if I don’t.
The miserable matches aren’t worth playing, and I also refuse to give the killer player with that nasty build, awful to play against killer AND playstyle any form of fun for themselves either. I’m good.
Nothing about removing ways to get out of miserable matches faster will stop anybody from not participating. It just makes it worse for everybody involved, including the killer who will receive nonstop bird notifications until they hook me.The actual fix is make matches not so miserable to play, especially for survivors, since there’s 4 people to consider over 1. “Greater good” quote and all that to support that comment. Do what helps the many, and if you can, THEN help the few. Killers control their play style and whether they want to be a tunnel sweat or try to play more fairly.
If BHVR removes the quick and easy way for survivors to bypass the DC penalties, it absolutely would cause a large decrease in ragequitting.
If killers got a quick and easy way to bypass the DC penalties, do you think there would be more killers ragequitting?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3785157#Comment_3785157
the thing is, distoration player aren't bringing distortion for gearhead, they're bring it for nowhere to hide and tunneling. as long as the perk counters nowhere to hide and prevents their aura being scene when they're on death hook, distortion still will have relevancy. if killer can find survivors on death hook with aura reading then distortion will become weak and irrelevant.
Distortion players are using the perk to try to dodge every form of aura reading, and to have the perk announce which aura reading perks and addons the killer has, which often allows the player to manually dodge the aura reading without using tokens.
The perk would be more balanced if it didn’t announce when aura reading was being used. One solution would be for it to be like corrupt intervention, where it just blocks aura reading non-stop for the first 120 seconds of each game.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3786385#Comment_3786385
Killers can and do just go stand in a corner until the survivors leave. Don't even have to be at your keyboard for that, and .. oh look, zero consequences there too.
Survivors ragequit way more often than killers, because they have a quick and easy way to bypass the DC penalties. A killer going AFK is not quick, which is why it isn't done as much.
The real solution is to take away self unhook attempts unless there is a 100% chance to succeed, and take away the hook struggle skill checks. This removes the quick and easy way for survivors to bypass the DC penalty.
If killers had a quick and easy way to bypass the DC penalties, then there would be a lot more killers ragequitting.
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Why do the guards still get "tricked" when survivors fake a window or pallet, which causes the guards to waste time pathing to the window or pallet, even if the survivor does this so early that the guard really should know the survivor obviously wasn't going to vault the window or pallet?
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@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782911#Comment_3782911
The problem with this is that you NEED Gearhead to counter distortion. That's the issue. If you don't run Gearhead because its not the best perk for your build or killer you will probably get your whole build denied by Distortion.
Also in smaller maps or with weaker killers even with Gearhead you cannot burn through all the Distortion tokens.
I don't know why everyone assumes Distortion users are all going to just let the killer burn through all their Distortion tokens, and let themselves be revealed. There are many Distortion users that will identify that gearhead is in play, and if they can't consistently hit great skill checks, then they will just avoid repairing generators for 30 seconds after a survivor loses a health state if they are out of Distortion tokens.
Yes, it's not efficient gameplay, but the end result is the killer still isn't going to see their aura, so the killer is still encouraged to tunnel everyone else since they are easier to find. And if there aren't any Distortion users in the game, then the killer is stuck with a weak off-meta perk that isn't very good, and has a bad trigger condition.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3784987#Comment_3784987
Is the hitbox that precise? It seems generous on PTB. Not Huntress’ hatchet generous, but certainly like one can land some questionable hits.
It’s like Wesker’s double dash, but way easier for survivors to dodge. It’s so easy for survivors to dodge, that it feels bad, and only useful to dash past a survivor to try to zone them.
I super hate killer powers that are so easy to dodge, that it feels like a waste of time. It just feels like I can aim the pounce perfectly, and survivors can still dodge it because the hitbox is so small.
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I’m more concerned that the wolf pounce hitbox wasn’t made bigger. The pounce attack is actual garbage, and feels like Wesker from a Wish clearance sale.
I don’t want to bother with a killer power that misses if the survivor micro dodges ever so slightly.
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I think the UVX power itself is completely fine, and is interesting once you figure out how the bounce rules work.
The main problem is the reveal mechanic is so survivor sided that it’s just really stressful and frustrating for the killer. The time window for two shots (or three shots) on the same survivor is way too small, especially if the survivors know how to use quick camera flicks to get a very high reveal uptime. -
@Peanits said:
Others have beat me to it, but it's intended for direct hits to be insignificant for The Unknown and this is not something that we're looking to change at this time. This was done to a) encourage use of the blast zone & ricochet effects, and b) to differentiate this power from other ranged Killers.
If you're after meaty direct hits, a Killer like The Huntress or The Deathslinger may be more up your alley. It's not the intention for The Unknown, however.
Is it intended that the Staring Down the Unknown mechanic doesn't actually require the survivor to stare at the killer? The staring mechanic starts almost instantly after the survivor looks at the killer, and has a 1.25 second buffer…
…this means that the survivor can be looking away from the killer, and can quickly flick their camera to the killer for an extremely small amount of time once per second, and the game considers that 100% uninterrupted staring. It also means that if the survivor sees the killer through a crack in a wall for an extremely short period of time, that counts as 1.25 seconds of staring. And if the survivor is using a decent DPI setting on their mouse, then flicking their camera takes a very small amount of time.
I don't understand why there isn't a much longer minimum amount of time the survivor needs to stare at the killer, before the buffer can happen. (i.e. if the survivor stares at the killer for less than 1 second, then the buffer doesn't happen after line of sight is broken). I also don't understand why the buffer is a whole 1.25 seconds, because that means if the killer tries to duck behind objects as they chase the survivor, it often feels like a waste of time, because unless the killer breaks line of sight for over 1.25 seconds, it's like they aren't breaking line of sight at all.
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I don’t understand how something can be under review for 8 months. This bug report is over a year old, is BHVR ever going to confirm it as a bug? It feels like this bug has gotten worse ever since DBD moved to the UE5 engine.
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@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783389#Comment_3783389
oh so they should give the last survivor a free escape in a match killer clearly won. neat. entitlement much?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783461#Comment_3783461
have you guys never played a 2v1 in any other way than hiding? especially at less than 2 gens it's nowhere near impossible however much y'all like to pretend it is.
If BHVR tried to fix the problem of the last two survivors refusing to repair generators, with a 100% nerf on survivors, with zero compensation for survivors, then there would be so many complaints from survivors, that BHVR would end up giving them compensation anyway.
That’s is how these forums work.
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@Moonras2 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783454#Comment_3783454
I apologize I may just be understanding you wrong but I'm not seeing where any of this would change what I said above.
Places that aren't within range of a hook are map problems and should be addressed. You are describing something that survivors can currently already do in a place it may be possible. I don't know how many of those even exist now but they are an issue that should be fixed.
Flip flop wouldn't have any outcome on hatch spawning, unless you left them slugged for the timer duration.
The survivors wouldn't be able to force the hatch to spawn. You would have to leave one on the ground too long. If they both run to the same corner of the map where they can't be hooked, which would be a rare spot that needs fixed, then one of them would have to be a recent fall. Meaning flip flop would have no effect. Sabo'ing a hook before running there would also have no change because you don't have to down them right away.
You also still have the ability to close the hatch if an offering is used. So you would know where it most likely is and could actually force it to spawn by slugging someone, just to close it.
Hook sabo to force a drop wouldn't have an effect on it either. That would mean no one was slugged for the hatch to even spawn. One would be on shoulder and one would be sabo'ing the hook. In that case you now know where both survivors are as well.
That does throw in the complication of picking up and dropping a survivor resetting the timer though. I hadn't thought of that.
In the current DBD, it’s impossible for hatch to spawn with 2 survivors in the match. So it doesn’t matter if survivors can place themselves in situations where they can’t be hooked, because that situation currently doesn’t cause hatch to spawn with 2 survivors.
But there absolutely are situations where the killer can’t hook a survivor, and it’s literally the reason why the finisher mori PTB failed. Many survivors were purposely placing themselves in situations where they couldn’t be hooked, and this happened even if you personally don’t understand it.
It’s not good to add a game mechanic that encourages survivors to exploit it. -
@Moonras2 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783433#Comment_3783433
How would they do that? If I'm not mistaken the hooks respawn now.
There are still places that aren’t in range of a hook. And survivors can easily cause this to happen by burning a badham offering with a basement at shack offering.
And it doesn’t matter if hooks respawn, because if the only nearby hook is broken, then a slugged survivor that his flip flop can crawl somewhere that is outside of flip flop hook range, or a slugged survivor that has power struggle can crawl under a pallet. And by the time the hook respawns, the survivor has placed themselves in a situation where they can’t be hooked.
There’s also the situations where the killer was forced to drop a survivor because if things like hook sabotages, and the survivor has so much wiggle meter filled, that if the survivor crawls away from the hooks, then the killer can’t hook them anymore.
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@Moonras2 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783389#Comment_3783389
I'm not against this at all. It would be a quick solution for both outcomes and game stallng.
I would also like to throw in a more complicated way though. Perhaps this could be something that gives survivors more hope on escape. I'm only speculating but maybe it would help cut down on dcs or hook suicides.
Instead of the finisher mori. If no gen has been touched, and no survivors in chase, for 1 or 2 minutes then survivor auras are revealed for the remainder of the match. No more hiding for a win. Time can be adjusted but I think 1 minute is plenty of time to find and start a gen.
On the flip side, if only two survivors are left, and a survivor is left on the ground for more than 1-2 minutes, the hatch will spawn. It will be visible to all 3 players. Only one survivor may use the hatch. It will permanently close if someone hops in and the egc will start. This im more comfortable with at 2 minutes or higher because searching for someone is a lot more work than finding a gen.
If the killer reaches it first, it will close and start the egc.
Now plays from both sides becomes risky. Slugging for the 4k may end with the slugged or the other getting hatch. Possibly even triggering adrenaline for the slugged.
Hiding for hatch will also turn in to the killer being able to see both survivors for the remainder of the match. With plenty of time to probably down them both for the 4k before the other triggers.
Survivors would purposely place themselves in situations where the killer can’t hook them, so that hatch would spawn with two survivors left, and both would have a chance at escaping.
And we know survivors would do this, because when we had the finisher mori PTB, I saw so many survivors purposely place themselves in situations where they can’t be hooked, because they had an extra inventive to do so.
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If there are only two survivors left, and the survivors haven’t repaired 5 generators yet, then the game should start a 3 minute timer, and if there are still generators left after 3 minutes, then start giving killer instinct on the survivors every 30 seconds.
The compensation is when one of the two survivors gets grabbed or knocked to the ground, the game should wait a second and then immediately go into a finisher mori. This immediately starts the hatch phase.
And in the unlikely scenario that at least one survivor is already slugged when the game gets down to two survivors, then randomly finisher mori one of the slugged survivors, and set the other survivor’s health state to healthy.
And there you go. A system that helps stop the 2 survivor stalemate, and stops slugging for the 4k.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782150#Comment_3782150
Sure, but they still have to interact with them. The time they spend on side objectives isn't just how long it takes the find them, it's also actually doing the action they're looking for - blessing or cleansing.
If the totem is more out in the open and close to generators, good. That means it's easier to snuff IF the survivors want to boon it instead of cleansing it.
As for it outweighing the benefits killers get, I firmly disagree. Frankly, when I wrote this post, I was worried it'd benefit the killer too much compared to the survivors; the ability to freely mix Plaything and Haunted Grounds together, potentially with a third anchor hex depending on how much extras we add here, would be very strong. This plus what I laid out above, where killers get a whole suite of counterpicks that suddenly get much more reliable… yeah, it looks good for killers here.
I just can’t with this conversation. I just sincerely hope BHVR never takes this thread seriously.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782079#Comment_3782079
Then you shouldn't want one-time-use boons, that's my point. They'd need to be significantly stronger to justify only being usable a handful of times in the best of circumstances.
I'm not ignoring anything, I know hexes can spawn in bad spots. I do play killer, I know how annoying hexes can be. I also know hexes don't always spawn right out in the open and that there are a fair number of pretty good hex spots on most maps. Like I said to you earlier - that you are actually ignoring, for the record - more totems means more chances of good hex spots as well, not just the bad ones.
Hexes, in general, would need more help than just this. This wouldn't even really help hexes as a class, they'd be at a net neutral here, it'd just help combinations of hexes. It wouldn't hurt hexes, though.
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782139#Comment_3782139
I mean, they'd heal each other because it'd be quicker and in a lot of cases more convenient?
While it is more efficient overall, Inner Strength takes longer in strict time than getting healed by someone else. Twelve seconds cleansing a totem + eight seconds sitting in a longer = twenty seconds before you've even factored in any travel time at any stage here. Inner Strength is a great perk, but even with more totems it's not a replacement for altruistic healing.
More spots for boons isn't necessarily a big deal, either. Not every dull totem that spawns is automatically a good spot for a boon, after all, so you're fairly likely to have pretty much the same amount of viable spots as usual… and boons are infinite, so it's not like it matters how many you've got unless it's zero.
This is all before factoring in that any of these perk types getting popular on the survivor side means you're far more likely to get to use the counter perks for them. Shattered Hope, Thrill of the Hunt, Dominance, Undying, even Retribution works on boon users. The game being slowed down by survivors doing side objectives, and you have the ability to affect those side objectives. As a killer player, that sounds like a great outcome to me.
It sounds like a horrible outcome to me.
Survivors will have more chances for totems to spawn within range of generators, or spawn within other locations where they want to bless a totem. And survivors will, on average, spend less time searching for a totem, because there are more totems to find. Those two things, by themselves, vastly outweighs the benefits that killers would get from more totems.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782049#Comment_3782049
Well exactly, go off instinct the other thing that I said
I think the biggest problem is there aren't any current Blight guides that actually discuss how to play on the new maps. Newer players are stuck watching horribly outdated Blight guides, where Blight was able to use object sliding, hug tech, and bump logic, to get hits on many of the loops and tiles.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
It’s so cringe how 90% of everyone here just takes shots at the poster and say it’s a skill issue instead of actually offering advice or constructive criticism.
My advice is to not use his power at small loops at all and don’t use it on loops that have not too much surrounding it unless you can hit it quick and spin back before they move.
Blight can be insane if you land a Basic M1 first and then instantly rush to catch up to them and down them before they can make it to another loop.Going through doors is impossible now with the new bump logic so I never try and rush through doorways. You’ll just spend 2 tokens trying to get through it unless you are lined up perfectly.
You can still bump through doorways, but you need to start holding the correct direction before the bump hits. For example, if you bump into the left side of a doorframe, you want to hold the left direction before Blight hits the doorframe, to immediately start moving Blight back into the doorway. The whole idea is that you bump, reposition, then bump again.
On smaller doorways like in RPD, you might need to also move Blight forward past the doorway, during the time between bumps.
On some doorways, it's easier to bump off of a nearby generator, or something else that is a bit beyond the doorway, so that when Blight bounces off that object, he is already mostly lined up with the doorway.
@bjorksnas said:
Well the way I do it is either have a preset idea of where to bump in a tile or have an instinct of when to rush in the open to usually secure a 2-3 bump rush or a 3-5 in a tile. Just rush all the time and eventually you will get instincts of when to rush and when not to rush and look up a guide for some basic tiles
A guide of basic tiles doesn't really help much anymore. Bump logic itself was nerfed, because the newer maps have way less of the basic tiles that existed when Blight was new. The correct strategy is that players need to be able to look at a loop or tile, and quickly determine if bump logic can even do anything, or if Blight literally needs to be an M1 killer at that loop or tile.
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@Hex_Ignored said:
Weird. I was always told that "hug tech" is exclusively used for "fun" and "doesn't offer any competitive advantage" and that "blight will be a lot stronger when people have to use bump logic"
- I certainly always said hug tech allows Blight to get extra hits, and I was a Blight main at the time. So you weren't "always" told it's just for fun.
- Blight also lost about 99% of his object sliding, which is completely separate from hug tech. This was the actual real nerf. Yes, hug tech gave Blight extra hits, but on a lot of loops, Blight could have just used object sliding without hug tech to get extra hits.
- The newer map reworks were also a large nerf to Blight. Some of the newer loops and tiles are purposely designed so that a survivor can run them faster than Blight can rush them, which means that if a survivor runs them correctly then Blight literally can't get an M2 hit.
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@Jim_Tonic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3780049#Comment_3780049
Not that i want to act as if i know better. i know NOTHING about game development.
But it just sounds like, regarding the PTB, that the windows are just too short. Why not have a bigger window between live and PTB then? I can only guess its because there is an alredy very tight release schedule for all the new content we get basicly all 3 months, which is good for the game no doubt, keeps everything fresh. But also makes it harder to be more flexible when the community decides some things should be way diffrent than they are introduced in the ptb. I can see that one kinda combats the other and its very difficult to balance between the two.
But then i also dont really understand why certain things are pushed through regardless, like the finisher mori concept. Last time it was introduced it got rejected pretty harshly, so if time is so scarce, i personally wouldnt have invested more of it in something the community does not want. Same goes for the UI changes that noone was asking for. Obviously i dont know what happened behind the scenes, im 100% if you knew it wasnt going to be recieved well your company wouldnt have done it.
However, i like this. Some insight behind the scenes, reasoning for why things are how they are. This makes it so people dont have to come to their own conclusions why some things just dont work, it would be surely appreciated if we get to see more posts like this one. And for things like the UI changes, maybe just have more surveys. Again, i dont know about game development. But im working in customer department for my company and ive been way more sucsessfull actually talking to the customers and have surveys, many people are happy to share their opinions and it also makes them feel much more valued if they get to participate even for a tiny bit. Obvously our company is not run by our customers but they are the ones that know best what they want.
And we are much MUCH smaller, maybe it doesnt work on a bigger scale like this. But its worth a thought no?BHVR might be trying to make the finisher mori work, so they can sell more of the really expensive killer cosmetics like the Trapper bear, that have their own mori.
This means killers might get nerfed again, just so the finisher moris can get added to the game. If BHVR is willing to literally make a PTB with unlimited survivor unbreakables, then I can't imagine what other nerfs they are willing to make, to force finisher moris in the game.
I can tell you right now that any killer nerf at all isn't worth finisher moris. Getting nerfed, just so I can watch cutscenes more often, feels like an awful idea. Meanwhile, why is this having a higher priority than the giant problem we have right now, when there are 2 survivors left, and they both excessively hide and refuse to make real efforts to repair generators? Are we really going to get another nerf that will boost survivor escape rates, but zero solutions for survivors that are literally breaking the game rules and refusing to repair generators?
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@MrMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3780654#Comment_3780654
I'd be okay with this as long as it only applied once 2 survivors were dead. And that you are instantly sacrificed once you go into a cage, because otherwise, if you were on stage 1, you wouldn't be able to self unhook to sacrifice yourself and give the last player a chance at hatch.
I mentioned 2v8 cages because survivors can’t self unhook from cages.
I’m worried that the new finisher mori will just be “when there are 2 survivors left, auto mori the next survivor that gets grabbed or knocked to the ground”. And the game just immediately goes to the hatch phase.
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The easiest way to stop excessive slugging, is for the game to automatically teleport a survivor to a 2v8 cage if they’ve been slugged for 60 seconds. This will stop excessive slugging for the 4k, and will help stop survivors that purposely try to create situations where the killer can’t hook them.
And then balance the 2v8 cages accordingly. Maybe 2v8 cages don’t trigger killer hook perks, but saving a survivor from a 2v8 cage triggers survivor hook perks. Maybe add a rule that if a killer knocks a survivor to the ground (or grabs them) 3 times on the same health state then the survivor gets automatically sent to a 2v8 cage…to stop killers from excessively extending the game with the whole “slug a survivor then force them to wiggle off their shoulder” repeated loop.
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@Toaster427 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3775561#Comment_3775561
It wasn't by design to place giant neon signs all over the map pointing to every survivors location. It's also not by design to sneak everywhere to avoid this, as one of the most sensitive and major balancing mechanics in the game is how fast gens go, and if survivors walk the entire match they will lose 100% of the time, especially since the massive buff killers got a while back that increased gen repair times.
Stratch marks should be subtle hints at where a survivor went or has been, I shouldnt be able to stop in the middle of a map and 360 seeing scratch marks across the map which tells me exactly where every survivor is at all times. Which is what this change does.
this is an unbalanced change and to say "that's not by design" is an excuse when the game HAS been designed like this for nearly a decade now and things have been balanced around it.
…The older maps were entirely made out of faint washed out colors, which meant that the bright red scratch marks really did stick out like neon signs.
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Hag will be a terrible idea for 2v8, and will be an even worse solo q teammate than Nurse is.
It will be super frustrating trying to set up pincer attacks with Hag, just to have her randomly teleport far away in the middle of a team chase. Hag teleporting far away to an uninjured survivor just ends up hurting the team overall, because she has a garbage chase power, and will likely struggle to get a second hit on the survivor without help from her teammate.
Killers that have powers that don’t work well in a team setting, shouldn’t be in 2v8.
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@pigslittlepet said:
I think it's so hilarious that people overinflated Billy's strength to the point they are actually stupid enough to place him above blight. Yeah he's strong but he's still nowhere even close to popping into s tier. That will be nurse and blight. I do feel kinda sorry for the people who wish Billy could ever stand with them. Living the dream instead of reality.
Blight got nerfed too much to be S tier. It's a combination of newer map reworks having more anti-Blight tiles and anti-Blight loops, and the removal of hug tech, and his best addons getting nerfed to the ground.
Nurse shouldn't be S tier either. She was very dependent on pre-nerfed range and recharge addons, and the newer map reworks having more line of sight blockers is a Nurse nerf, and her new chase music is much harder to hear survivors over than the default chase music, and she can't use exposed perks anymore. There is a point where nerf nerf nerf nerf knocks someone out of S tier, and that ship has sailed a long time ago for Nurse.
And we know Nurse and Blight got major impactful nerfs, because the bulk of the complaining stopped. Does everyone remember the flood of complaints we used to get about these killers, that just keep going and going every week? Why do you think the complaining stopped? It's because both of these killers now have so much counterplay, that people don't feel the need to flood the forums anymore with complaints.
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The only thing that can fix the 2v8 queues is if survivors get some massive feature that isn't available in the normal mode, like voice chat or map pings.
Imagine how much better the survivor experience would be in 2v8 if they had map pings. If someone want to save a survivor, they could map ping the survivor to let everyone else know they are going for the save, so we don't have multiple people wasting time running towards the caged survivor.
In fact, map pings would be much better than the other classes too. If there is a high priority generator that needs to be repaired, and the killer chased you off of it, you can map ping the generator so other people can find it before it regresses back down to zero. If you can see the killer, you can just map ping them, and not need a special scout class to show the other survivors where the killer is.
The class system ends up hurting the survivors a lot, because some people think they are supposed to spend the entire game to run around the map healing people (medic) or following the killer around (scout). It's so generator inefficient, and this can't be fixed if 2v8 continues to have classes.
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What do people expect, considering that Unknown has a 7 second cooldown on UVX, it only takes 10 seconds for survivors to remove weakened, and if Unknown want to break line of sight, it has to be longer than 1.25 seconds because of the reveal buffer?
The time window between one UVX hit to the next UVX hit, isn’t large enough to be fun for the killer. It ends up being really frustrating for the killer most of the time, because even if the killer does manage to get 2 hits in a row, the extreme time restriction makes it feel more stressful than fun.