Coffeecrashing
Coffeecrashing
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@apathyinc said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3874037#Comment_3874037
I am aware of this and it doesn't change the fact that the game does not score bleed outs as kills. The killer has objectives and if they don't complete them the game tells them they didn't.
When everything in the game that is visible tells the player that a bleed out isn't a kill, why do you think a hidden system that is based on the same game information would score it differently?
The emblem based system considers a bleed out as a kill. The reason why it gives zero points for a bleed out is because it wants to discourage killers from doing this.
However, the MMR system doesn’t care about encouraging or discouraging certain behaviors. It therefore doesn’t have a reason to give zero points to a bleed out.
TD;LR: MMR doesn’t care about the Entity’s happiness. -
@apathyinc said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3874018#Comment_3874018
It doesn't matter what players consider a kill, or how I define it, the game straight tells us what is a kill as of patch 6.5.0.
- Moving forward, getting 4 Kills will earn the Killer a Merciless Killer rating, rather than the previous requirement of a double pip.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/371-6-5-0-mid-chapter
A player will NEVER get a Merciless Killer rating if a survivor bleeds out, and the rating will reduce further for every additional bled out survivor.
As far as the loophole you mentioned, that in fact what is happening.
Merciless Killer is based on the Emblem rating system, which is completely separate from the SBMM (MMR) rating system.
The emblem rating system also cared about how many chases a player was in, and how long each chase lasted. The emblem rating system cared about many things that aren’t relevant at all to the MMR rating system.
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@apathyinc said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873858#Comment_3873858
Chances are it's not a loss for survivor but counted as a draw like the hatch is. After all, the survivor has evaded the killer for as long as they possibly could and avoided sacrifice or mori.
As for bringing it up in other threads, I have. But a lot of players can't seem to process this information because it would invalidate their kill steaks and "skull = kill" mentality. Bleed outs aren't "I win" buttons that can be pressed to skip two thirds of the killer gameplay.
MMR systems don’t work like that. If someone loses MMR, then someone else is supposed to gain MMR.
It would be a major loophole, if killers could start a new account, have a 100% slug strategy, and never gain MMR. It would mean they would be at default MMR (or lower) forever, even if 3-4 survivors bleed out every single game.
Also, if all 4 survivors bleed out, the majority of players still consider that a 4k. The way you define “kills” isn’t a popular definition. Claiming that a 4 survivor bleed out is a 0k will never be a popular opinion.
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@CaptainNimrod said:
In light of chaos shuffle where your builds are completely random, I have been slugged almost every single round with nothing to do about it but wait until they decide if they want to pick me up or not. Why are killers still allowed to deny someone's ability to play the game, by doing the simple act of not picking them up? Some killers like The Twins or Singularity are even more potent in doing so, it almost feels like they're DESIGNED to leave people on the ground which is frustrating.
Vice versa, hook sabotaging is incredibly abusable and FORCES killers to slug. It's an infuriating cycle of killers being forced to not play the game, which makes survivors not be able to play the game. Which then births more people to just start playing this way normally even if the survivors aren't doing anything to antagonize them.
Please for the love of this game, consider changing how being downed works, or consider making something like Unbreakable be basekit in a fair manner. Nobody likes being left on the ground or forced to leave people on the ground for any reason.
So you admit that hook sabotaging can force a killer to slug, but your solution for slugging is 100% survivor sided, and would punish killers if survivors force them to slug.
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I think they should be in the shrine, so people have the option to unlock them as level 3 on every character by default.
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@apathyinc said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873803#Comment_3873803
A bleed out doesn't count as a kill in any other aspect of the game, why would MMR be any different? The game even tells the player this right when the match ends. Also, check out streams of players who habitually bleed out survivors, you'll see they play mainly against beginners.
Because it doesn't make sense for an MMR system to count a bleed out as an MMR loss for the survivor and the killer at the same time. That's not how MMR systems work. If one side of the game lost, then the other side of the game is supposed to win. It doesn't make sense to say that both sides lost the game.
Because, for reals, if you really think a 4-survivor bleed out is a loss for the killer, then you should go to all the forum posts where survivors are complaining about being bled out, and remind those players that the killer lost those games.
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@apathyinc said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873723#Comment_3873723
MMR isn't a factor for events, not sure why you mention it, and you can't see what is happening with it anyway. You are also speculating this aspect of the MMR system and have no way to prove what your are saying is true.
If a survivor bleeds out, it still counts as a kill for the killer. Score events aren't relevant.
It also wouldn't make sense for bleed outs to be negative MMR for the killer. If killers that constantly bleed out survivors never gained MMR, then they'll never increase in MMR to the point where they can be matched with survivors that can handle that gameplay. It's basically saying killers could spend infinite time in low MMR, where it's likely those survivors would lose every single time.
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@smurf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873750#Comment_3873750
Right, but most killers struggle to reliably slug a whole team anyway. Killers like Billy and Blight are going to be best at it. But they can leave a slug and go hunt for other people without taking the time to hook if they know the slug will just go on a hook in 60 seconds. These killers would lose even more incentive to hook for players who are thinking of going for a slugging build.
If a killer is leaving a survivor on the ground, and is therefore making zero attempt to defend them, then 60 seconds is long enough for another survivor to pick them off the ground.
And the time saved by not hooking a survivor, is offset by that fact that slugged survivors are essentially getting 60 seconds added to their hook timer, and that killers won't be able to bypass the hook timer via slugging. It makes prolonged slugging much less time efficient.
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@smurf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873745#Comment_3873745
Did I misread your original statement? It sounded like the suggestion was that if any survivor is slugged for 60 seconds, they go into a cage 2v8 style. I could have read it wrong :/
I did say that, but then you said it would incentivize full team slugging.
This change would actually make it more difficult to full team slug, because the slugged survivors would get teleported far apart from each other, and the killer wouldn't see where the survivors are being teleported to, so it would be much harder for a killer to defend slugs, and much harder for a killer to attack survivors that are trying to help slugged survivors.
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@smurf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873670#Comment_3873670
Putting survivors in cages automatically once they've been slugged for 60 seconds would incentivize full team slugging since the killer knows the survivor will just get a hook state if they're left on he ground. I don't see many cases of 4-person slugging myself, but the number of instances people are reporting indicate that it's not as uncommon as it should be. I imagine we shouldn't encourage it more.
If all 4 survivors have been slugged for 60 seconds, there's like a 99% chance the killer won the game if they don't pick any of the survivors off the ground.
So how would this be any different? The only thing that is being changed is how long the players are stuck in the game. If any of the survivors had a way to pick themselves off the ground, or could crawl through an exit gate, they likely would have done that before the 60 seconds happened.
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@apathyinc said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873670#Comment_3873670
It's always better to go for the hook, since the game doesn't care about these reasons you listed. The game scores bleed outs as a loss for killer, you will see this on the first match result screen. By letting survivors bleed out, a killer fails to accomplish the primary goal of sacrificing survivors to the entity.
Automatically teleporting to a 2v8 cage is better idea than what is currently going on, but it takes away the responsibility of the killer to take action and make the entity happy. Same with speeding up the bleed out timer, which is another frequently requested idea to solve this.
MMR systems can't work like that. Survivors lose MMR when they bleed out, which means killers need to gain MMR when a survivor bleeds out. You can't have a situation where a survivor is worth negative MMR points for both the survivor and killer.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873670#Comment_3873670
so killers can continue slugging from the start of the match, bypass all normal game mechanics, and get rewarded with an auto-win? WOW what a compromise!
If I'm stuck watching survivors bleed out on the ground, the game was already won. This just speeds up the process.
Why aren't you complaining when someone suggests that survivors should be able to speed up the bleed-out timer? That's literally the same type of solution, except that my solution happens automatically, instead of being a survivor's choice.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873651#Comment_3873651
The discussion is whether or not a killer slugging 4 survivors, when it's 100% being done for the sake of winning the game, is acceptable or not.
Because there's absolutely no situation where this is necessary to win in 2025 DbD. Hooks respawn now. There's no need to bleed everyone out for 4 minutes from the onset of the match. People who go into every match to do this are trolls. Period.
And I'm not going to try and convince you any further. To be frank, I don't think I need to. The overwhelming majority of the playerbase (rightly) recognise this as malicious behaviour and it's clear the devs have cottoned on to it too (given they attempted to implement a solution on a previous PTB and are asking about it in feedback surveys). I'm 99.9% sure this behaviour is already on the chopping block and will be addressed in the near future. And when it does, I assure you the kill rates aren't going to change because no one is legitemately doing this as a strategy to win, and instad are just doing it to prolong already-won matches 👍
There absolutely are reasons to bleed survivors out on the ground…
When all 4 survivors are slugged, they will very often still try to wiggle if they are picked up. And hook respawning doesn't change the fact that there often are situations where all 4 survivors aren't in range of 4 separate hooks, especially if they were slugged because they all stayed in the same area.
If multiple survivors haven't been hooked yet, then placing any of them on a hook can actually make the game LONGER, because they might self-unhook and then try to pick up their teammates.
This is why I keep arguing that if a survivor has been slugged for 60 seconds, they should automatically get teleported to a 2v8 cage. It stops prolonged slugging, and ends the game quicker because the game would automatically end when all the remaining survivors are in cages.
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873628#Comment_3873628
Respectfully friend I think this is part of why they don't want MMR shown either - because nobody should be justifying using their MMR to determine whether or not someone is "good enough" at the game and thus if their criticisms are or are not valid. That's exclusionary and stupid.
It's better than the exclusionary behavior some people have right now, where they try to argue they are better at the game than other people because of the number of hours they've played.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873605#Comment_3873605
Did you conveniently skip over this part: "they shouldn't be doing that, of course"?
And I don't know how many times it needs to be said, but we're NOT talking about a killer leaving you on the ground for 30 seconds to chase away someone else nearby. Or leaving someone slugged if they gave them a free down next to a hooked survivor. Or any other scenario where temporarily slugging a survivor makes sense. So enough with the whole "it's just the killer playing strategically" defense.
We're discussing killers bleeding out the WHOLE team and humping you on the ground for 4 minutes and other such nonsense. Which is absolutely NOT necessary under any circumstances in modern DbD and is literally ONLY done for the purposes of griefing/trolling. It's not even disputable. If you're going into games with an inflammatory username, leaving every survivor slugged with the nodding and WSing after a down.
You're. not. playing. strategically. You're griefing.
It's not about the killer winning, it's about the killer spending 4 minutes rubbing in the win instead of just letting us move on. Great, you've got us all downed. Now just hook us and let us move on and everyone is happy. There's no viable reason other than being a troll to spend 4 minutes after you've won walking between the slugged bodies of your opponents.
Unless you're someone who does that kind of thing, I don't see any reason to be defending it 🤷♂️
We were absolutely not discussing that. You literally said "It doesn’t matter why you’re doing it. Whether you’re doing it to grief or doing it because you feel it necessary, the match is still ruined for everyone else".
The discussion is whether or not a killer slugging 4 survivors, when it's 100% being done for the sake of winning the game, is acceptable or not.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873602#Comment_3873602
You don't need visible MMR to do that, its the people who make the claim that needs to demonstrate their point.
Even so, that argument is already bad, because its up the the Killers digression to do anyway so who cares?
Honestly I would have thrown that claim out on the basis of being too simple, its almost just a generalization.Seems this is also what Choy hopes, that a visible MMR will temper balance discussions and make certain people silent.
The problem with that is this game is for everyone and not just high MMR, meaning dont balance for high mmr only.
BHVR knows that, but wont say it to protect reputation, which is why they almost never seem to follow what the best players in the Community says. They have a larger and more inclusive approach to game design, for all of us, not just what the top is doing.Besides that, the people who have to make the decision already know our MMRs, we don't need to know it, unless ofc we believe we know better than BHVR and its Game Designers, which I mean, possible but I dont see us hired yet or making our own company.
Having visible MMR doesn’t mean the game developers only care about high MMR.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873580#Comment_3873580
That’s not what was said at all.
It’s 100% what is being said. It’s saying that killers should purposely make bad game decisions, for the sake of survivor fun….. but solo q survivors can pretty much do whatever they want, because nothing they can do is “as bad” as what killers can do.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873578#Comment_3873578
I also play other PVP games with hidden ranks, and those are fine too. So its all fine and we don't need change anything.
The actual problem with showing ranks in this game, is people would discover that a lot of the things people say aren’t actually true.
If the vast majority of the people claiming “killers don’t need to tunnel or slug” turn out to have a mediocre killer MMR, then their arguments fall apart.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873166#Comment_3873166
I strongly believe we have an upvote bot or vote-buffing issue on these forums
We really don't. I've been on this forum for 6(?) years now and while it definitely has its issues, this is not one of them.
being banned, making new accounts, and then getting access back to old accounts and logging in to vote the posts up on their current one.
Also not a thing. Alt accounts, in any capacity, are prohibited here. Of course there's some people out there who flout the rules and do it anyway, but they tend to get removed pretty quickly. There will definitely be some that slip through the cracks but not in an amount big enough to cause the type of vote buffing you're describing.
Not even 30+ people are participating in this thread, so how are some people getting 30+ upvotes
Not everyone likes to be actively involved in a conversation, but they may still feel strongly about the topic so they find who/what they agree with, drop an upvote, and go. It's not unusual for threads to get more upvotes than participants.
I see plenty of people here very calmly and rationally pointing out that EVERYONE is being jerks in the event queue getting nothing or few upvotes, while many people who are being one-sided or us vs. them are getting lots of upvotes
Or maybe it is because one side has a greater ability to grief. You'll find an equal number of poor sports in both roles, but it's rare that "toxic" survivors can do as much damage as a "toxic" killer. Teabagging survivors are unpleasant and they shouldn't be doing that, of course, but it doesn't interfere with your ability to actually play the game as killer. You can still chase them, still hit them, still hook them, etc. But a killer? They can actively stop you from playing. They get a down, and then spend 4 minutes WSing you while you bleed out with no ability to do anything. Or they can choose the opposite extreme. Instead of dragging the match out for you, they can just tunnel you out early and you're left with no points or pips.
There's no real equivalent thing the survivors can inflict on the killer, at least not in solo queue. The most comparable thing would be a stacked SWF bringing strong toolboxes, rushing the generators, and ending the match ASAP. But teams like this are rare to run into. Most SWFs aren't doing this, and we know that because, statistically, they escape at much the same rate as solo queue survivors. These people definitely exist. But as the exception, not the rule.
Hence the disparity in upvotes. It's not that we think killers have a monopoly on bad behaviour. It's that bad behaviour on the killer side is generally more subversive due to them being the power role.
You're basically saying it's fine if survivors do things that are unfun for killers, but it's miserable if killers do things that are unfun for survivors. That's a bad double standard.
Trying to win in a PvP game is not bad behavior.
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@Skittlesthehusky said:
i'm not really sure what point this is going to serve or, in the context of forum posts, how this is supposed to change the course of conversations tbh.
personally, I believe that MMR is never an accurate representation of someone's experience in the game (which appears to be a shared sentiment with quite a few others). with the way that people fight so hard to use MMR as a platform for their arguments makes me think that they don't truly understand their capabilities, thus they have to tie it to a number. while i do think it is an issue that this number can now be seen and that people will use it in their arguments even more, because of the nature of MMR and how people generally are on these forms, it doesn't make any of the posts that use it any more valid or as strong of a point to begin with.
frankly i never truly understood the obsession with MMR or why it has become such a major conversation in the community. is it because it's a system that isn't directly visible? why do we care so much about this particular number to the point where we are now using privacy data requests for this?
competitively i can understand, but what sets an actual competitive person apart from those who focus on numbers like this is that they actually analyze their performance primarily on their skills and experience paired WITH progressive numbers over a period of time, not just 1 number. that's why i think that nowadays people are really just trying to find anything to give themselves the upper hand in discussions rather than doing anything productive with it.Every other PvP game I play has clearly visible ranks, and it's fine.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3871735#Comment_3871735
That's the point right there "you take your attempts"
The thing i'm getting at, is that the only reason people don't like being slugged, is because they can't "go next" and "go next" is an epidemic all its own that needs to be dealt with.
For reals, most of the slugging complaints is because it doesn’t allow survivors to ragequit in a way that bypasses the DC penalties.
Being slugged on the ground is pretty much the same non-interactive experience as being stuck on a hook. In fact, being slugged is more interactive than being on a hook, because survivors can crawl around while slugged.
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@Nocturnum said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3872665#Comment_3872665
If you're breaking or exploiting things in a game then it's clear it's way more about you and you winning. No reason you just can't play a game as normal, hone your skills, and still win.
The problem isn't simply wanting to win, it's how you go about it. If I go in with the attitude that only MY experience matters when there's other people involved, it's pretty selfish. At that point I'd just play a single player game or play with bots if I want to not be mindful of others. Put yourself in others' shoes once in a while.If people go in with the attitude that when killers prioritize winning it's considered selfish, but when survivor team prioritizes winning it's completely fine, then of course they are going to be unhappy with the game.
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@PleaseRewind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3872628#Comment_3872628
Do you mean when a killer picks up a survivor the other survivor with a flashbang loses collision with the killer?
Might explain what happened to me. I had my back to this David while picking up another survivor. All a sudden the David was in front of me dropping a flashbang. I did scratch my head because I was picking up in a opening to a loop and was confused how he got in front of me when I was blocking the way past. He had no time to run around the walls to get in front and he didn't have Background Player.
Yes, flashbangs have a bug where they can remove killer collision when the killer is in the pickup animation.
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@alpha5 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3872611#Comment_3872611
Well, it's not really a bypass if it happens by default. You don't need a flashbang to phase through. That's what I am asking about.
By default, killers have collision when they pick up a survivor. The bug is that survivors are allowed to bypass this collision.
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@alpha5 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3872577#Comment_3872577
Is that a confirmed bug or just something we consider one?
Bypassing the killer's collision is a bug.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3872513#Comment_3872513
I usually dont have a problem with Flashbangs - only when the sound is missing. And this also happens on the Killers side. And this needs to be fixed. But other than that, I dont see an issue with Flashbangs.
The killer's collision being turned off is also a bug that affects flashbangs
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For reals, I just want the email to have my survivor MMR and highest killer MMR.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3870942#Comment_3870942
FPS and fighting games have managed to have (relatively) accurate hitboxes for years now. It's absolutely possible.
FPS and fighting games have normal FoVs, normal character movements, and way faster projectile speeds. This game has none of those.
Because for reals, how often do you think players can “360” in Call of Duty or Counterstrike? How many other games have characters awkwardly lean forwards sometimes, which causes the hitboxes to look confusing? Some games even have their snipers have hitscan, which means the projectiles have an infinitely fast speed.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3870586#Comment_3870586
I actually said you can't argue in good faith that it doesn't deserve a rework for the overall health of the game, because it disproportionately punishes solo and actively encourages a playstyle which bypasses the game's mechanics. I said 'disproportionately punishes solos more than SWF & actively encourages a playstyle which bypasses a large majority of the game's intended mechanics' because we are talking about Knock Out, not because it reflects the end of my opinion. When discussing a single perk, I am going to talk about the single perk. I do not think Knock Out in it's current state is healthy for the game, and will gladly take a return to far older metas (can we bring back 200% RuinDying, actually, now that Tinkerer's been buried) if it means the perk gets a rework, alongside other things such as Blindness as a whole, for the overall health of the game. My point is not just 'it's fine'.
You are arguing with someone who agrees with you, because the general perception is different. Glad we cleared that up.
Slugging survivors isn’t bypassing game mechanics.
The problem with slugging is that both sides of the game are sometimes stuck watching survivors bleed out on the ground.
And this is why I keep saying that if a survivor is slugged for 60 seconds, they should get teleported to a 2v8 cage. That fixes slugging for the 4k, it fixes extended Knock Out slugging, and it fixes survivors that purposely place themselves in situations where the killer can’t reliably get them to a hook.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3870569#Comment_3870569
Firstly, where did I say "nerf"?
Secondly, "the general mindset" is not my mindset, I am arguing for a rework for the most egregious examples, before narrowing scope to fine-tine those which are still a problem but are out outright the issue. I don't care what the general mindset is, because I am arguing for my mindset, following my opinions, using my deductions from my experience playing the game and engaging with the wider community. You are arguing with me over points I agree with and have made before, worded slightly differently, for absolutely no reason.
That is my issue with why you keep responding to me with things that I have not said, do not disagree with, and do not disagree with my current opinions on the state of the game. That's why I'm so confused about your STB reply, because it has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm saying in this thread
You said people can’t argue in good faith that it’s fine if things disproportionally punishes solo q.
And I’m saying people can argue that in good faith, because the general perception is that it’s fine when things disproportionally rewards SWFs.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3870333#Comment_3870333
This is lovely. I still have not argued to the contrary, so I don't really see why you're replying to me with this.
The argument of “things should get nerfed if they disproportionally punish survivors”, isn’t good because the general mindset of players is that it’s fine if things disproportionally rewards SWFs.
Your personal opinion on fairness doesn’t change the general mindset of other players.
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@DTJObe said:
It is a universally accepted truth that SWF with 3rd party communications break game balance. This has been settled in the years since SWF was implemented to prevent survivors from lobby dodging to match up with their friends.
Unfortunately, SWF provides teamed up survivors with massive amounts of free information. This results in:
- SWF survivors having the equivalent of aura reading on their teamed survivors.
- SWF survivors having the equivalent of partial aura reading on the killer when the killer is in view of a teamed survivor.
- SWF survivors having the equivalent of aura partial aura reading on gen progress for gens near a teamed survivor.
- Higher sacrifice rates for Solo survivors and less enjoyable matches.
- Less enjoyable matches and lower kill rates for killers who feel they are powerless against organized SWF teams.
BHVR has stated that SWF is now a core part of the game. This would be a perfectly fine stance IF there were a plan in place to solve the disparities caused by SWFs. As there is no such plan on the roadmap, this becomes a problematic position. But what is the solution for balancing the SWF power disparity?
Some have suggested a SWF-free killer queue with a BP bonus for killers who choose matching against SWFs. This is a poor solution as it increases queue times astronomically on both ends.
My personal suggestion may be technically difficult to input; however, it is hardly an impossible feature to implement, and it would improve the health of the game significantly.
Required Proximity Comms for SWF
A brief explanation of how this would best be structured:
- Any SWF would be required to have an active microphone input before beginning a match.
- Microphone input would go out to X meters.
- Survivors could be reported for comms abuse (blasting music, etc).
- Muting microphones in game would not be possible; however, muting the microphone from the device itself would be possible.
What are the benefits and the pitfalls?
- SWFs would be easier to locate for killers, and killers could hear callouts if survivors aren’t careful.
- Solo queue would be a stealthier way to play, giving solo an advantage to even the gap with SWF.
- SWF would need to be quiet when the killer was nearby. This would increase immersion and add a new dimension to the party game aspect (think Quiet Library or similar). It would also make streaming more entertaining, imo.
- SWF could communicate with solo, giving them information in critical moments.
- This would create a new, more level playing field for SWF and solo queue, and BHVR could then balance from that point.
- Unfortunately, SWF survivors COULD mute their microphones specifically for DBD from their machines; however, assuming that this is a party game and not competitive, this should be the minority because there’s no fun in that.
From my perspective, this is the easiest to implement solution to the SWF-Solo disparity they alsoincreases game enjoyment for all parties. In open for critiques, though. Let me know your thoughts!
Survivors could just have 2 microphones, assign 1 to DBD, and the other to Discord…..
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3870333#Comment_3870333
if every soloq player bring shoulder of burden, it's same as swf.
Beyond the fact that solo q really isn’t coincidentally bringing 4 shoulder the burdens to the same game….
- Unless all 4 solo q survivors announce they all are bringing Shoulder the Burden (in a language shared by all 4 survivors), they might not even know they are supposed to rotate who makes the hook saves.
- If the killer is camping and the survivors aren’t using voice comms, they might not be able to coordinate multiple survivors to help unhook, so that someone can bodyblock for the exposed survivor.
- It doesn’t change the fact that the ideal number of Shoulder the Burdens in 3, with the 4th survivor having chase and anti-tunnel perks, with the survivors using voice comm location callouts, so the 4th survivor can easily coordinate bodyblocking (or otherwise know where the killer is so they can try to bait the killer into chasing them).
- Unless all 4 solo q survivors announce they all are bringing Shoulder the Burden (in a language shared by all 4 survivors), they might not even know they are supposed to rotate who makes the hook saves.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3870127#Comment_3870127
Also, if the game should be changed when something disproportionately punishes solos more than SWF, then the game should also be changed when something disproportionately rewards SWFs more than solos. Because if we have these rules that goes both ways, we can say we're trying to bridge the gap between solos and SWFs.
Well, yes! This isn't the "gotcha" moment you think it is, I agree! SWF and Solo should be as equal as is possible, with killers balanced around one far more even survivor power level as opposed to two separate levels. It hasn't worked for 8 years and it won't work, ever. If something disproportionately benefits or penalises solo/SWF, it should be reworked and adjusted to make it healthy for the game. Within the last, like, 5 years I do not remember ever arguing differently.
Being able to stack multiple Shoulder the Burden on the same survivor, disproportionally rewards SWFs more than solos, because it is much much easier to coordinate this in a SWF with voice comms.
In fact, I'd claim the vast majority of the time that multiple survivors bring Shoulder the Burden to the same game, it is in a SWF with voice comms, because solo q survivors are way less likely to want to give up a hook state for a total stranger.
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The main issue is when people only care about one side of the game, and demand that only their side of the game get fixed.
For example, with the slugging conversations, it's clear that many people think that when slugging is the killer's choice then it's a major game problem that needs to be fixed…. but when slugging is a survivor's choice then it's 100% fine and doesn't need to be fixed at all.
And yes, when someone brings up a problem like slugging, it's completely valid to ask that both sides of the game be considered. But many people just want the solutions to be 100% survivor sided, and believe that any solutions that might also help killers is "off topic".
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3870081#Comment_3870081
You cannot, in good faith, argue that a perk which disproportionately punishes solos more than SWF & actively encourages a playstyle which bypasses a large majority of the game's intended mechanics is not deserving of a rework for the overall health of the game.
Knock Out is mostly the same for the majority of the games, because only a very small percentage of the games involves 4-SWFs that are all using voice comms for extra game advantages.
Also, if the game should be changed when something disproportionately punishes solos more than SWF, then the game should also be changed when something disproportionately rewards SWFs more than solos. Because if we have these rules that goes both ways, we can say we're trying to bridge the gap between solos and SWFs.
But when people say they want killer perks nerfed because they disproportionally punish solos, but they don't want survivor perks nerfed when they disproportionally reward SWFs, then that's a bad double standard.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3869076#Comment_3869076
It is a valid tactic to win
I have no issues with slugging to get pressure. If Survivors are intentionally grouping up while injured it is 100% on them to prevent situations like that from occurring.
I do have issues with being forced to sit on the ground for 4-minutes and bleed out. Especially when the Killer can just hook Survivors and save everyone's time.
This is why I proposed having a way of bleeding out faster, since it does not remove the Killer's ability to slug, all it does it give Survivors the agency to end the match faster when slugging occurs, since being bled out just sucks.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3869167#Comment_3869167
Let me just go back in time and record… yea. Unforunately we cant really go into the past and change that.
I didnt think at the time to record, I just took a screenshot since I just need to press a single button to do it. I dont record all my games anymore since the file sizes for videos gets too big really fast, nor did I think it was worth recording at the time since this isnt something reportable either.
Slugging, or bleeding a Survivor out, while annoying, is not against the rules of the game or at least as far as Im aware, so I just screenshotted, made a post on the DBD Forums, and that's it.
What happens if a survivor is forced to bleed out because the killer can't reliably get them to a hook? Your solution only cares about one side of the game, by making it the survivor's choice on whether or not the game ends faster.
Solutions to slugging should be an automatic process. For example, if all the survivors are slugged, and there is literally zero chance they can win if the killer leaves them on the ground, then the game should just end faster. To reiterate, instantly ending the game after all the survivors have been slugged for 0.01 seconds is bad, because there are situations where one of them could have picked themselves up or crawled out of an exit gate. But if a survivor has been slugged for 60 seconds, there is like a 99% chance the survivor will bleed out if none of the other survivors can help them.
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@Slurpin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3869094#Comment_3869094
What does a flashy save do to prevent you from enjoying the game to its fullest?
You can still chase.
You can still hook (next time when you don't let yourself get flashied).
You can still slug.
You can still hump the survivor out of pettiness (which they can't do anything about).
You can still hit them on the hook.
You can complete challenges.
You can still tunnel.
You can still camp.
You can still use your power.
You can still 4k.
This is applicable to everything survivors can do to you, by the way. You're never disabled from doing any of the above.
What can a survivor do if you tunnel, camp or hard slug?
You can't do gens.
You can't get more than a fraction of the bp you could make.
You likely aren't going to rank up in higher grades even if you are far better than the killer.
You can't escape (lose con for individual survivors with how MMR works).
You can't complete challenges.
You literally can't play the game if it's hard slugging.
You can't do ANYTHING about it if a killer is determined or you have a strong team - this is why standard play is disproportionally affected since the latter can be handled by SWF's.
The positive is that you get chase time. Your teammates, however? They'll hardly get any interaction until it's either too late to win or they're next to be slugged/camped.
I guess you can tbag still, but the killer can put a stop to that, lol.
So no, I'm not bouncing around definitions. You're just using the words 'problematic' and 'behaviours' so loosely, it could mean anything anyone does in the game that might annoy. So here, I showed you why people dislike these behaviours a killer can CHOOSE to do versus what behaviours survivors CHOOSE to do.
And this is the root cause of all the complaints. One side, in the end, can't do crap about certain behaviours. The other gets to play the game to fullest even if they get flashied or bodyblocked.
Do you understand that your definition of “problematic” is massively survivor sided?
And this is why the best anti slugging solution is for survivors to get teleported to a 2v8 cage if they are slugged for 60 seconds. This would actually be a buff for survivors when killers try to slug for the 4k, because eventually the slugged survivor will get teleported to a random part of the map, which means there is a much much higher chance their teammate can save them.
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@Slurpin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3868632#Comment_3868632
A decision to use an item for its intended purpose?
Then it is problematic for the killer to use their power to down people, since that's a gateway to potential slugging and tunnelling.
Given this is your response to the effort I've put into mine, I'll take it as a concession that you do not have anything else of substance to bring other than "other side annoys me so it is problematic" and comparing it to things the other side is effectively helpless toward in standard (read: solo queue) play.
You literally used the words "is a decision _____ make as a player for an advantage knowing full well it makes the experience far worse for the other side" to define problematic behavior. So I used your definition.
Are you going to keep changing your definition, until it's super super easy for killers to have problematic behavior, but super super difficult for survivors to have problematic behavior? Do you think that would be fair for both sides of the game?
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@jmwjmw27 said:
I hear the difference but it doesn’t sound bad to me, definitely not anything like metal pipe scratching.
The PTB version definitely has a "is going to give some players headaches, especially if they play as this killer, because they will hear this music over and over"
@Rudjohns said:
I dont understand whats going on. Is the PTB chase music actual live right now or its "back" in the Freddy PTB?
The Freddy PTB has the wrong version of the chase music, where there is a lot of super fast repetitive noises added to the chase music. The music she has on Live right now is the correct version, that doesn't include any super fast noises.
The main difference is her live music is fine, and her Freddy PTB music is going to cause some people actual real life headaches.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3867004#Comment_3867004
How is that strong? He even has a cooldown every time he cancels it, so it isn't true spam. If Freddy is faking teleport to a gen every time, you just ignore it until he spends too long holding it. Whether he commits to the tp or not, that's not good pressure. Maybe he gets lucky and it causes the last-second skill check to come up and the survivors blow up a gen. But that's all I see it doing. If Freddy is in chase with someone, and is multitasking by faking tp somewhere else, he should not get punished for that, because it's a smart play at the cost of splitting concentration off of chase. That plus counting hooks, remembering which pallets are broken, guessing what the other survivors are doing while unaccounted for... y'all act like there's no skill or brain power being used while multitasking, as if it's easy.
Anyway, if Freddy commits to the tp, he's pushing the person off the gen... but he left the person he was chasing. At best, he got a 1 to 1 trade on pressure, and for all he knows the person he's chasing, or a second survivor who was on the gen, can just come around and finish it after he pushed the initial guy off. Why would you handicap a killer's power so much when he's low tier, and it's not even that effective?
And it may seem like I'm calling his tp strong and weak at the same time, but that's what you call "decent" in this game. A middle ground. Most people just like to call a killer thing OP if it's decent or usable, and I think that's what's happening here. It's why 90% of killers in this game can't be used at top level. They could have been, but people just want to cry about half-decent stuff until it gets nerfed. You will never see Freddy in S tier (even if ad populum dictated that he was in the past), so why all the pushback against him keeping any of his original strengths?
He has a severely reduced cooldown if he cancels the teleport, and there really isn't much of a warning between "he stopped at 99%" and "he went to 100%". It's by far the most annoying thing this killer does, and due to the fact that he's gotten a heavily buffed teleport in the PTB, he can afford to lose the teleporting cancelling as compensation.
Teleport canceling never should have gotten such a heavily reduced cooldown, and if it ever comes back, then it should trigger a full cooldown.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3868156#Comment_3868156
Well I haven’t played against her since before the holidays and I only remember it has sounded similar to what was in the clip.
The PTB version has an extra layer of super fast noises. The live version doesn't have any super fast noises.
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@Vuk said:
Seriously, this is annoying…
I dont waste my time going to the gates to do nothing besides watching teabags, the devs must do something about it.
Survs complain about killers letting them to die on the floor but killers suffer the same thing EVERY SINGLE MATCH they dont kill at least 3.
A few solutions could be ONE of those:
1 - Alucard's shield baseline for all killers. (kinda fun for everyone)
2 - If a surv get hit inside the gate area the exit closes for that surv for 5s. (like the Houndmaster).
3 - Put an option to end the game for the killer to use, just like they can open the gates themselves.If the survivors are trying to waste the killer’s time, then they won’t be waiting at the exit gates. They will be hiding somewhere else on the map for most of the EGC, so that the killer can’t easily push them out of the game.
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@Slurpin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3868540#Comment_3868540
None of what you state is a behaviour, they're the intended purposes of items and hazards in the game.
Tunnelling, camping and hard-slugging (because I think slugging is more nuanced, I think it is a good tool for mementum) are decisions you actively make as a player for an advantage knowing full well it makes the experience far worse for the other side.
These strategies are actively being addressed as seen with various anti-tunnel perks, basekit BT, the camping meter and a failed basekit unbreakable which communicated a clear intent to limit slugging.
What is genrush anyway? I'll be real with you, unless it's a toolbox monster team, if you're getting rushed with a killer that isn't garbage, you were mismatched in terms of skill. Yeah, I'll say it plainly, it's a skill issue most people have here.
You could argue that it is also a skill issue on the survivor's part, but what can a survivor do while being tunnelled? They can outplay the killer for half an hour, but they'll still get tunnelled. They can't do anything else in the game which, to some, is dreadfully boring. Same for camping, what does the hooked survivor's skill have to do here? And slugging, same thing. Player choice is taken away completely, relying on teammates - which is fair, but far too easily exploited in solo queue. Hell, even teams still get smashed as shown when actually good players go on streaks.
So, no, getting flashied because you can't be arsed to pay attention isn't the same as choosing to keep everyone on the floor for four minutes.
Making a flashlight save is a decision survivors make as a player for an advantage knowing full well it makes the experience far worse for the other side.
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@Slurpin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3867866#Comment_3867866
But what survivor behaviour is 'problematic' other than sitting on gens? There isn't a way that's particularly unfun for the killer unless they bring items to cheese this. I don't think survivors have the ability to make the game unfun for the killer unless there is a massive mismatch in skill or some sort of exploit. There isn't really an equivalent to tunnelling and camping, which is why it feels like a double standard.
Considering that "problematic killer behavior" is pretty much absolutely every strategy killers could do, "problematic survivor behavior" should be pretty much be every strategy survivors can do.
This means that flashlight saves, flashbang saves, pallet saves, bodyblocking, hook sabotages, and using voice comms specifically for extra game advantages, would all fall under "problematic survivor behavior". Also, if we are holding survivors to the same standards as killers, genrushing would have a definition that is easily achieved by survivors in almost any game.
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@Mandy said:
The fix to this in the PTB will still allow crouching to happen when there's a bigger difference in heights, the fix is so that the power cannot be crouched on the majority of areas but if there's an area where there's a big variation in heights - stairs for example, the survivor can still crouch to avoid the hit.
Does the below video count as a "big variation in heights"?
Embedded URL:
https://packaged-media.redd.it/jtzgbybptsbe1/pb/m2-res_1080p.mp4?m=DASHPlaylist.mpd&v=1&e=1736485200&s=807776bdc660fd67ec109c69134a1b72a00d8173Full URL:
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@Slurpin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3867325#Comment_3867325
Nowhere in the OP does "Unfair" "Toxic" or "Overpowered" come up.
The equivalent of this is survivors bringing busted items and there's frequent complaining of that too, often with screenshots of quad-syringe groups and toolbox monsters.
There isn't a double standard, people cry no matter the side when they perceive there to be an injustice or that actively hinders their enjoyment. Whether rational or not.
The double standard is that “problematic killer behavior” could be done by any killer, in any game….. but “problematic survivor behavior” requires very hyper-specific requirements like quad syringes.
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@KaTo1337 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3867004#Comment_3867004
Depends how long the Channeling takes place. If we Freddies can teleport as fast as Sadako for example (instant at the new location with an animation) you dont have the helpless-situation locked inside a Channeling-Animation at the place you currently are.
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3867004#Comment_3867004
I see it as a good thing and a bad thing. The teleport lock on can be pretty slippery, and it's good to be able to cancel so you don't accidentally teleport to the wrong place.
Then have the canceled teleport trigger the full cooldown timer.
As a survivor, it’s super obnoxious when I’m repairing a generator, and it is bubbling every few seconds, because a Freddy player thinks it’s cool to spam 99% teleports.
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@KaTo1337 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866552#Comment_3866552
I really really hope there is a chance of getting his best part of the current kit back: Faking Teleports.
Without, his most unique Mindgame would be dead. At least let uns fake teleport to gens but not to healing survivors. This would allow us to not encounter the situation of starting a Channeling and survivors dancing in front of us while we cannot cancel. Class-Photo wasnt popular for that reason.The removal of teleport faking is my favorite part of this update.
The absolute most annoying thing about playing against Freddy, is when they spammed 99% teleports every few seconds. Canceling a teleport never should have been given such a reduced cooldown.
And Freddy is getting enough buffs overall, that teleport cancelling doesn’t need to come back. And if it does come back, then canceling a teleport should trigger the full cooldown timer, so that the 99% teleport spam is still gone.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866673#Comment_3866673
Auto hooking as a reward for slugging is a compromise like the Treaty of Versailles was a compromise.
It's much better than pretty much every other suggestion I've seen, which was 100% survivor sided, and 0% killer sided.
Because, really, look through the other solutions people gave for slugging, and ask yourself "does this solution care about both sides of the game"???????