ChaosWam
ChaosWam
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My two top ones are Siren and well, anything Project Moon could provide.
The first because Siren is a pretty interesting older IP where you can 'sightjack' the enemies in the game to see their movement patterns. Great JP horror game that utilized the uncanny valley feeling of the old hardware and photo realistic faces. Graphics wouldn't be as weird in DBD, I admit, but it still has some uniquely creepy vibes to it. My only downside is that I can't think of what Shibido should be the killer.
As for Project Moon, it's my recommendation since we can't really do an SCP tie-in. Their first game Lobotomy Corp. is an SCP inspired game, after all. And despite it's visuals and sometimes ridiculous concepts, the plotlines of their games as well as the abnormalities could very well be reinterpreted well into DBD's setting if done right. -
Time will tell how effective this is, but DBD hardly has decent competition anyway.
Most licensed games like the upcoming Halloween one isn't going to compete with the WIDE cast DBD has at this point already. If this update is as good as we hope, modding itself will keep a very dedicated set of fans here. -
Yes.
Dead Space would be my #1 personally. -
"Welcome! If you need any pointers I can answer most things if need be."
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Sadako's problem is that she's very good at dealing with new players or ones who don't understand how she works, while skilled and knowledgeable players can do laps around her. Buff her for the higher end and the lower end will be worse off.
That said, I dislike that's the case, and I still wish BHVR would allow for more user friendly tooltips and in-game explanations for powers so we can have meaningful buffs.On a side note, I still would like to see Sadako get something similar to doctor's madness based on condemned stacks personally.
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Something tells me due to how they manage their development time, they wouldn't have had time to do three IPs like that.
But if they did manage it, well, I'll both be wrong and impressed with BHVR. -
After a string of more complicated powers I actually wouldn't mind something simple and straightforward.
As long as it's viable anyway. -
I could see an argument to buff it's regress %, but the more I use it, the more I'm fine with it not regressing through walls.
And while pop beats it due to synergy, I find it has a few uses itself. Keeping gens from popping in your face, because survivors tend to keep repairing and then let go when you attempt a hit while the other survivor(s) finish it is one. The other is popping the gen remotely as you run in with a stealth killer or with undetectable.
I can see your points though, and I don't fully disagree either. I just don't mind it's uses so far personally. -
Same reason survivors hate it when I spread hooks and play fair ig
Doesn't really matter what you do, the divisiveness of this community will always show you're playing wrong no matter what. -
I'm willing to wait and see first, and then make a post explaining if it's problematic or not.
That said, I've always been skeptical of haste perks ever since the original Made For This and how that got out of hand fast. On paper, this perk seems very similar.
I just hope people don't compare this to Fire Up. -
Makes sense, agreed.
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@Crowman said:
I think the problem is that Stake Out is just a bad perk by itself. If you remove the syngery it has with other perks you just create a perk no one would ever consider.
That's the biggest problem I have with it too. Sometimes I think it's TOO good with synergy that it could kneecap future perk combinations that also require GSC's.
But as you said, it's bad by itself and there's no real change that can be made to make it good by itself. -
@Aven_Fallen said:
I dont think Stake Out needs any changes. I mean, you mention Fogwise and Corrective Actions as part of your argument and this already shows that your argument is not really strong. Those are super niche Perks and are completely fine, even with Stake Out.
The actual value Perk is Hyperfocus. And I think at this point a Survivor is investing two Perk Slots into their Build for this AND Stake Out does not really grant consistent value IMO. The Combo Stake Out/Hyperfocus was really popular when Wesker released, simply because RPD was boosted (after its Rework a small map) and he has 40m Terror Radius. But once you did not go against Wesker every game and did not end up on RPD that often, the Perk value dropped.
And I think the current userate is ok and shows that it is a Perk Combination worth taking without being too good. Simply because the value you gain is not consistent. It depends on the Killer and the map you are on. And that it is better against the Killer with huge Terror Radius is actually a good thing.
I pointed out that it's fun with Fogwise and Corrective Action though? It wasn't an argument, it's just a viewpoint of someone who loves Stake Out.
And personally, I think Hyperfocus is just one issue and if BHVR keeps releasing more great skillcheck perks, it could snowball into an issue. -
I feel like making them take longer to repair could be a bit overkill, but I DO like the idea of it encouraging getting the other gens done to prevent a 3 gen situation.
Maybe with further tuning, you could be onto something. -
I've been experiencing similar.
Survivor matches, someone brings luck offerings to give up or they just DC.
Killer matches, it's coordination I wish I'd see on my survivor with full knowledge of every loop rotation. Even winning feels like a chore. -
Personally I'd like to see luck reworked for things like chests giving better items/addons, and heck maybe even a % chance a charge isn't used when using an item with an increased chance for fog vials or something.
It's an outdated mechanic when it comes to unhooking yourself, even more so since Deliverance is far more reliable. -
@TamaraLatte said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4075974#Comment_4075974
How do we counter fire up or coup?
You counter coup by pre-throwing pallets, playing loops safer, and finding ways to make them waste a lunge and a token.
You counter Fire Up much the same, but at an even lesser extent since Fire Up's bonuses are negligent without additional perks to pair with it like Bamboozle, Forever Entwined, and Brutal Strength. And if the killer is running those, they ain't running gen defense and you just plow gens while they're being ran.
On a side note, I cannot believe we're comparing permanent gen progression around 6-18% a gen per survivor running it to FIRE UP of all things. -
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4075698#Comment_4075698
ThIs community and its CC deities refuse to let the base game receive meaningful changes. Even this forum keeps repeating the mantra of "just bring perks" every time a problem is brought up, and the devs keep making perks to do so. The opposite example of yours is Elusive going form basekit in the ptb to an element in newer perks. This is no longer the game it was when BT became basekit. If that happened in modern DbD the social media outrage would can it immediately.
I still think the elusive situation was such a missed opportunity, so I'd have to agree with you there.
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@BongoBoys said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4075726#Comment_4075726
Still by your own definition "permanent" and rewards for failing your just looking for ways to justify your one sided bias
Wasn't my definition of permanent, that's quite literally YOUR definition of permanent you're trying to push. Fast Track gives permanent progression akin to how BNP works.
And for the record,
Keep claiming I have a bias.
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@BongoBoys said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4075644#Comment_4075644
By that logic things that grant permanent Haste, Kills and progression blocking and slowing for failing on the Killer side is not good for the game either. So I expect, Noed, Batteries, Rancor, Deadlock to be massively nerfed as well
NoeD can be cleansed
Batteries has a range
Rancor only effects the obsession and is active at the endgame
Deadlock isn't permanent
Are we playing the same game? -
@cammoking123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4075694#Comment_4075694
Define what you mean by the "health of the game". Because you can argue something like Fast Treck (pre-nerfs) was needed in DBD. Survivors don't have the snowball potential killers do. Killers can play bad and still win a game. If you lose one of your fellow survivors at 3 gens then the killer has basically sealed the win. Imo, survivors need something that can swing a game the way killers can. Because the idea that a game can be over at 3 gens just cause you lost one teammate? That's bad game design.
And that somehow makes it okay to have perks that have no counter on the non-power role?
Killers have a bigger snowball potential because they're the power role. And survivors have a massive advantage if they play well. You have good points on the game's flaws, but you can't fix flaws with perks. That needs base game adjustments, not bandaid fixes that create issues.A good example is how long Borrowed Time was in the meta until it became partially base for the game.
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@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4075683#Comment_4075683
Killlers had a spree last year with getting things they dont like getting nerfed or just straight up removed. Most recently killers have been the vocal side that's been able to get things changed / canned based on just complaining.
Side note but ken is horrible example of survivors complaining and something getting it nerfed bhvr dug their heels in for months with that killer to do even minor changes and he still needs them.
I don't think TBTC is broken but I also don't think fast track was to the extent people where complaining about it. I have honestly not seen a match in pubs where fast track is this insanely broken perk like people make it out to be.
"guys fast track made me loose the game"
-shows match with 4 BNP toolboxes or multiple deja vu which would of effected gens way more-
or all the short content of "Fast track is so op guys" meanwhile its always clip where killer is not even trying and they are doing it for the clip OR clearly other gen perks are doing the heavy lifting.An eye for an eye makes the world blind.
Stop thinking in Us VS Them and think about the overall health of the game. I say Fast Track needed this change because I used it first hand and could see it was not healthy. -
@random1543 said:
-adds to list of things killers got nerfed because of instead of accepcting the perk, they went and had a big whinge about it-
Boy I love the community 🥴 maybe surviours should go whinge about turn back the clock. No new shiny things for killers either.
What about Skull Merchant?
Or release Kaneki?
Or old Eruption?
Or thanatophobia, ruin, facecamping with bubba, off-the-hook downs, gen kick limits, the call of brine/overcharge combo, ultimate weapon, STBFL's M2 change…
There's more than those but I hope I'm making a point here. Unbalanced things deserve to be complained about. If TBTC is broken, it should be tuned. That said, I don't think TBTC is broken because it requires LoS and the regression isn't that much. -
@OmegaXII said:
Because Fast Track PERMANENTLY speeds up Survivor's Objective by doing NOTHING.
This is a serious problem because the faster the Gens, the higher the chance you escape. So bring Fast Track = More Escape.
All those perks you mentioned do not speed up your progress to win the game, that's why they're fine.
PS: Seriously, I can't imagine anyone with decent hours actually defend Fast Track.
Man, all those downvotes for an objective fact.
And people comparing it to Fire Up and NoeD are forgetting that NoeD can be cleansed and Fire Up's effect isn't gamebreaking and usually relies on stacking other perks.
Where as with Fast Track, you're getting free gen repair for doing nothing and it can't be reverted. I abused it with Stake Out for this very reason. I don't mind at all there's more the survivor needs to do to get that powerful of an effect.
That said, I would still like to see Stake Out just not work with perks like Fast Track and Hyperfocus. -
One other thing I'd like to add, is just make Stake Out not activate this perk or hyperfocus and adjust as needed.
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@Icaurs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069506#Comment_4069506
I will say this again.
Because you are really struggling with this.
The point is not to argue that specialist is better then fast track. Is better to lose a hook state versus use time looting a chest? Wasting the few seconds to open a chest for an affect the killer has no control over versus one that is passive that killer does have some control over.
It's a subjective argument that has no definitive answer. I will say it again for you. While I would argue that specialist is better then fast track, it is not wrong for you to have the opinion that fast track is better then specialist.
My point
Is this perk, that has existed for years, you can run with the same build that everyone is running with fast track and get the same effect. This has existed for 2 years, and has never been issue. It is literally only right now being consider an issue to when running stakeout hyperfocus, which again you have been able to do for years.
Nothing about this is new. What is new, is some players are acting like the game is unplayable, when nothing has changed.
And you're having multiple people go down by wasting time doing chests.
Think about it, if you're on a gen getting progress done, you're doing more for your team than doing chests regardless of them getting hook states. If they get hooked, you get a bonus. With specialist, if your team is dying, you're not getting the same value. -
@Icaurs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069494#Comment_4069494
Specialist requires jumping through multiple hoops to activate it's effect.
Step 1, rummage or open a chest.
Step 2. Perk is activated.
That's too much for you? Really
You can waste less time doing a gen and letting your team loop, get hooked, and then add Fast Track value compared to wasting a ton of time to get Specialist to work.
I get the feeling you have never touched Specialist ever. But in order to activate fast track your teammates would need to go down, which activates one of the many meta killer perks that are anti gen. There is no counter to specialist. At all.
Now none this is to argue, Specialist > Fast track., even though… it is. It's to point out that this has existed for years and has never been an issue. It is only now that youtubers have thrown a massive fit, that people are saying there is an issue.
Okay?
With Fast Track, you can do gens AND get value when a teammate gets hooked.
Specialist, you're wasting time opening chests and rummaging.How is this hard to understand what takes more time getting gens done?
Also, as I said before, Fast Track gives you more charges. -
@Icaurs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069490#Comment_4069490
Follow along.
Specialist, and Fast track, have the same affect. The difference is how the activate.
Specialist can be activated before any pressure is applied.
Fast track requires, the killer to apply pressure. In order to get value. Further to get real value, the killer would have to down and hook, multiple survivors.
Now
Fast track gets 3 tokens perk hook, each token is 2%, so you get 6% per hook. Now you cap out at 9 tokens, which is 3 hooks, before you have to apply it before the next hook state, otherwise you waste the tokens.
Specialist gets 4% per token, per rummage and unlock of a chest. The killer have no affect on this, so you can choose when to apply it. and still et the maximum use. Which caps out at 6 tokens. So you wait until the end game and dump on on one of the last 3 gens and get the full value. This does not even take into account offerings.
The only time I LOST matches with it is when my teammates throw.
Then you must be a top survivor. The secret ingredient was never fast track, it was just you.
You are not getting that much value form the perk, and if you are, then the killer is either bad, playing in a very relaxed way or both.
None of this is a promoting of specialist because this itself is not a good perk, my whole point is this exact combo has existed years and has never been problem because it isn't. Fast track is finally not terrible and I don't want it gutted while survivors just keep running the actual problematic perks.
Specialist requires jumping through multiple hoops to activate it's effect.
Fast Track only wants a GSC and a hook.
You can waste less time doing a gen and letting your team loop, get hooked, and then add Fast Track value compared to wasting a ton of time to get Specialist to work.
It's not a comparison. -
@Icaurs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069485#Comment_4069485
I actually did read notes thank you for asking? Did you?
If you did you may know about a Lara croft perk called specialist. Specialist does the following,
- consumes all Tokens.
- Permanently reduces the Repair Charges requirement of that Generator by 2/3/4 Charges
This perk which came out in 2024, has the same effect, the main difference is you can apply it before the killer can even get a down. Also, in order to get any real value from fast track the killer would have to get multiple downs applying good pressure and also spreading out the hooks in the least optimal way possible, whereas Specialist can be applied before the killer can get any pressure.
OH NO, THI NEW COMBO IS SO BUSED THAT IT'S NEVER USED.
The only reason Fast track is being used right now is because a few youtubers and some people on the forums threw massive fit over the perk and uploaded a couple of videos in custom matches coordinating the most optimal setup to apply the perk, so they can upload video in big capital letters,
NEW FAST TRACK IS GOING TO MAKE ALL KILELRS QUIT, or some other ridiculous title.
Even now, in it's most talked about time, where everyone is saying all their matches is just 4man SWFS all running Fast track it is only sitting 21st of most used survivor perks.
IT'S one of the worst gen perks in the game. There are so many better combos that are actually broken. I am so glad, that people lack the creativity to experiment because this would actually affect killers.
When was Specialist ever talked about here?
This is about Fast Track itself. And I'm talking about it because I personally use it to win matches.
The only time I LOST matches with it is when my teammates throw.
Edit: In fact, Fast Track gives more value than specialist, only beaten by BNP and ONLY when there's 3 stacks, which is one hook. BNP gives 9 charges while 3 stacks give 6. -
People will downvote this opinion. I've tried speaking against the Fast Track buff.
I run hyperfocus/stake out normally, I know how strong it is, and Fast Track makes it so much better. In fact, I even dropped hyperfocus for vigil/sprint burst because I can either keep chases long and have teammates get gens done, or other survivors get hooked and I'm constantly getting stake out/fast track value and finish a gen by the time the killer gets to me. Just save the toolbox for when I need a quick skill check.
I'm sure there's other ways like throwing on something like Built to Last but yeah.
Also@Icaurs said:
Fast track is a bad perk.
I don't how people struggle to understand this.
Also this combo has existed for years and has never been an issue. It's just a bunch of people (low skilled kilkers) throwing tantrums because because thus what people are crying about this week.
It's already being uses less as people return to meta perks.
Fast Track wasn't busted before because the progression could be regressed. I don't know if you read patch notes, but it's now consistent BNP value.
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@Phantom_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069032#Comment_4069032
I'd rather have a normal match. I don't appreciate wasting my time doing 4 gens, only to get cornered by 3 teammates and the killer at the end, and get killed as the only gamer, just because I didn't want to run around for 20+ minutes to throw all the pallets, get downed, heal up, get downed again, get hooked, farmed, hooked and repeat. Besides because there is right now a BP event more people are doing this right now.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069037#Comment_4069037
Thank you, that is all I needed to know.
I actually agree with both you and Mandy here. If you are singled out for NOT farming, then yeah, report em'
I just personally go with the flow of the match. If I see a killer pulling what they did on you, I switch back off farm mode and bodyblock for whoever is being tunneled. -
I already see the downvoters are here.
But no, you're right, people will 100% be toxic about this. Not always, but it's going to happen. -
I get so many complaints, survivor or killer, about playing 'too serious' and whatnot, or playing against/with people who ARE way too serious and toxic in endgame chat that when I get lobbies like this… I'm fine with it.
I'd rather have a goofy farm session every once in awhile to break up the monotony. -
I'm actually glad about this change.
If done right, both healing and gen speed builds will be nerfed and we can justify buffs to weaker perks to bring them up and let them shine on their own.
Just gonna wait and see how this is all effected. -
Makes sense, I've been running into a lot of surge, eruption and pain res this event.
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@Shirtless_Myers said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067576#Comment_4067576
I'm not sure how Lich is surprising when they're 115%, four different powers with individual cooldowns, a bug that makes his ghosts spawn within his ankles instead of the correct height that's never been resolved, and chests acting as a mini side objective.
Mainly because there are other killers I'd see much higher than him in a general sense.
Aside Lich's counterplays, which newer players will absolutely struggle with (I'd know, I play Sadako), there are plenty of other killers that have confusing kits and confusing counterplay, or straight up more lethal without knowing every counterplay.
It could also be the same case as Krasue, as Lich is still a bit of a rarer killer to see so their dedicated players are carrying the weight. Heck, I'd argue all 5 killers on the Broad MMR side aren't very common. I'd still love to see overall pick rates compared to their kill rates. -
@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067576#Comment_4067576
I'm honestly surprised to see Krasue there in the high MMR, I kinda wanna see how top players play her. She's always far too clunky for me.
Krasue is a really strong Killer, but also an unpopular one. So only very few dedicated Mains play her and since those are good with her, her Killrate is high. Meanwhile players who might be bad with her are not playing her.
Oh I agree, but I also think there are other killers far stronger than Krasue with less issues.
But, it's more likely as you said, less people playing her compared to more popular killers giving interesting stats. -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067599#Comment_4067599
Those two sentences are linked. I think it's the wrong way around to say it's strongest when spreading hooks.
I think phrasing it that it's weaker when the killer tunnels is more appropriate. That puts it in line with most survivor perks, which is appropriate because it correctly identifies tunnelling as the source of the difference. Tunnelling is a problem, and part of how that problem manifests is that it invalidates or harshly weakens a lot of survivor options.
What's relevant to Fast Track in particular is how strong that stronger situation is, not that tunnelling weakens it. Tunnelling weakens most things.
Isn't that a bit like the 'cup is half full/half empty' analogy?
Yes, the perk is weaker when tunneled. It's also at it's strongest when spreading hooks. Both are true.
The main issue is we as a community DON'T want tunneling to be the clear answer to any problem. Perks like this do make the community slowly decide to do that.
A good example is old Dead Hard. Remember killers would always fake an M1 to bait it out because it was so meta? Fast Track was just recently changed, and once people realize how non-committal it is for a big reward, it's going to spread. And killers will slowly decide to tunnel or slug, since those are a tried and true counter to most things already. I'm also not saying it's changing killers who already do that, what I'm saying is it's incentivizing killers who try to play fair to also start slugging/tunneling in response.
Heck, imagine somehow tunneling is removed, doesn't matter how, it's now removed. Would this perk be stronger or weaker then? The obvious answer is it'd be much stronger. -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067595#Comment_4067595
It's not that the perk is at its strongest when you spread hooks, though.
It's that the perk is weaker when the killer employs the game's biggest balance problem against it.
Framing it like that is I think helpful because it illustrates how redundant this is— of course tunnelling beats it, tunnelling is a huge problem. Tunnelling beats most things. There are completely legitimate and healthy tools that are beaten by tunnelling, that are also at their strongest when the killer spreads hooks by extension, which don't get talked about in this way.
The issue isn't that Fast Track is at its strongest when the killer isn't doing one specific thing, the issue would be that the perk is just too strong at its strongest. That's why comparing it to things like Fire Up and Batteries Included is important- the major important distinction between them is that Fire Up and Batteries Included aren't particularly incredible, and Fast Track is (as far as I can tell) a lot stronger.
Stronger than it should be for its activation requirement, maybe. That seems like a fair discussion to have, I think, but it isn't relevant to that discussion that it's weaker when the killer tunnels. At least in my opinion, anyway.
It's not that the perk is at its strongest when you spread hooks, though.
Sorry I can't get past this claim. It's absolutely at it's strongest with spreading hooks.
At least with tunneling, there's a slim chance of removing it from the game if only one person brings it. If multiple bring it, then your claim is a bit more believable. And even then, with 2 in play, you want to try and remove those two ASAP. And killer can't really guess who has it at any given time unless they see a gen jump in progress visually.
I mean heck, even at it's weakest, permanent gen repair is FAR more valuable than haste and vault/hook speed because those also rely on map RNG. -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067591#Comment_4067591
The problem with discussing how it affects tunnelling is that it can lead to the road of going "well if survivors have [x] I'll just tunnel", which isn't exactly helpful or constructive.
It also can lead to asking why the devs would design a perk that encourages tunnelling, which has happened a few times in this thread. This is a misread - the devs designed a perk around the entire game, not around one specific balance problem they've actively been trying to fix - that comes from including tunnelling in the conversation when it doesn't really have a place there.
It's just redundant to say that the massively unbalanced issue of tunnelling is less affected by Fast Track, or any perk for that matter. Of course it is, it's massively unbalanced. That doesn't mean tunnelling is actually relevant to this specific perk more than any other, though, there's nothing to be gained from including it in the discussion beyond acknowledging that, like with many other scenarios, tunnelling also excels here.
It's kinda hard not to say that when the perk is at it's strongest when you DO spread hooks. Plenty of people pointed that out in the PTB.
It's not redundant at all when it's the reason I'm getting so much value in my matches. Again, a majority of my losses using this perk is because I get tunneled out before I can get value. It's strongest is when I'm left alone and the killer spreads hooks.
It's not saying the devs intentionally made it this way, at least that's not what I'm implying, I'm saying it's an oversight in perk design and should have been considered. -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067586#Comment_4067586
I'm not assuming killers are spreading hooks. I'm saying that when we discuss perk strength + balance, then we should assume killers are spreading hooks for the purposes of that discussion.
It's not that we want killers to spread hooks, it's that spreading hooks is the video game and ways of avoiding it are balance problems. It at best just muddies the conversation to bring up things like tunnelling here, it's not undesirable gameplay we're trying to encourage players away from, it's a balance problem that needs to be fixed.
As for the last part, fair enough. I consider that part of the perk's specific strength and implementation over the general design, but that's clearly personal preference so fair dos.
Except the main issue is we need to discuss how the perk effects both spreading hooks and tunneling.
If you spread hooks, you have players like me who slap a gen for up to 18% un-regressable progress per full stacks. Even at 2 hooks, I'm doing 12%. BNP is 9% for clarity's sake. And this can happen multiple times a match with just this one perk in the game.
If I get tunneled out, the killer has to hope I run into deadzones or play tiles wrong because the others can do gens as normal, or risk someone else having this perk as well since survivors can run 4 of these at max between all of them. So, on the off chance all 4 have the perk and I get tunneled, that's still 6% per survivor, per hook.
And the only activation is a great skill check. Which is not hard to get at all.
As for other perks that share a similar concept:
Batteries Included: Sure, it activates when a gen is done and gives haste, but only near a gen within 16m. That's the drawback.
Fire Up: I really hope I don't have to ever compare fire up to Fast Track. If I do, I'll do it on request.
Desperate Measures: A good perk that gets better the more survivors that are injured, but not game breaking because it's healing isn't the best when it's by itself, it's only much better with things like Botony. It's not shaving the overall speed of the game, just healing which is another touchy subject when it comes to healing speed.
And the only other survivor perk I can think of with a similar concept is Autodidact, and even then that's stretching it because it's only comparison is token gains, so it's hardly even comparable but I'm lacking any other survivor side perk like these. And let's be real, Autodidact players are based and nobody should have a problem with that perk.
Now, that said, I still believe this perk could be fine if it had a max cap of 10 tokens and you gain 5 tokens every time the killer hooks someone consecutively. There may need to be a grace period in case a survivor is attempting to throw, but if we're talking about balancing the game away from tunneling, this would be something to consider. -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067582#Comment_4067582
The reason I personally do not like this framing is because if we're talking about a game of DBD, we should assume the killer is spreading hooks. If they aren't spreading hooks, what they're doing is its own balance problem that needs its own discussions and solutions.
If a perk is too strong when spreading hooks, that just means the perk is reasonably guaranteed to be too strong. It's a basic fundamental part of the game to spread pressure around by keeping multiple survivors occupied, any discussion about perks should assume that the killer is playing the game properly, at least in my opinion.
Plus, as I've said before, many perks share this design and they don't get this discourse because the design isn't the problem. Perks that activate based on your opponent's objective progression have been in the game for years and most are regarded as weak, not punishing and problematic.
Well if you're assuming all killers are spreading hooks, we're not playing the same game.
Second, no perk shaves gen progress permanently for playing in a way the community wants without some form of drawback or counter. That's why this perk is problematic. I gen constant BNP value multiple times a match by me running it alone. If others run it, it's even worse.
I actually don't see a reason NOT to run it if you can get GSC's consistently, or with stake out. I even dropped hyperfocus for sprint burst and it's even more consistently getting me wins. -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067572#Comment_4067572
For the record, I do not agree that the perk is too punishing "for spreading hooks". I think that last part is at best unnecessary/redundant phrasing, and at worst can form mindsets that are deeply unhelpful + push the discourse away from anything constructive while building up an "us vs them" victim mentality.
If the perk is too strong, it's just too strong. "Spreading hooks" shouldn't come into it.
That's the entire reason it's too strong.
Again, the perk design itself is the issue. I even agree with people that this could easily be retooled to be an anti-tunnel perk, but you get the max value due to spreading hooks.
I've been constantly running this perk, and the only time I haven't won is when I get tunneled. That's not a coincidence. -
I'm honestly surprised to see Krasue there in the high MMR, I kinda wanna see how top players play her. She's always far too clunky for me.
Not too surprised to see Kaneki up there, but honestly Lich is a welcome surprise. I enjoy the mindgames with him.
Also, Sadako still being on the top 5 in broad hurts. -
Usually when I get this map, this is the first 3 gen I try to break.
It doesn't help the map isn't very good to begin with for either side. Loops aren't very interesting, and gen placement is well… You showcased it. -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067148#Comment_4067148
There are a couple permanent ones, but what I'm more interested in is further down where you say none of the other perks are as strong as Fast Track.
Now, I can't play at the moment so I have no opinion on the strength of new Fast Track, but if it's too strong… that's the issue. It's not that its design punishes spreading hooks (because plenty of perks activate based on objective progression and they aren't deemed problematic in that way), the perk is just generally too good at what it does.
Thank you for making sense of this. This is what I keep saying, the perk is far too punishing for spreading hooks, something I THOUGHT everyone here wanted.
But clearly the votes are wrong, we don't want spreading hooks? -
@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067476#Comment_4067476
Apparently you're also not willing to debate batteries being effectively equivalent to fast track.
Which was my point, that you have chosen to ignore twice now. And that I said was true regardless of how you viewed balance in the past.
I'm not going to debate what is clearly incorrect.
-
@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067175#Comment_4067175
I never claimed strength. You said none of them were permanent, and I added fire up, since they did mention batteries.
Although, I didn't make the rules here, and 3% move speed was determined to break every loop in the game. So 5% move speed, permanently, should surely break the fabric of space time.
Now, i would argue that no matter where you stand on this, batteries and fast track are equivalently powerful. Personally I think they're both somewhere between "not great" and "decent", and they both suffer from RNG (either map and gen placement, or skill checks and who is found/tunneled first).
But for those who screamed about MFT being "giga broken" and fast track being "insane", it would also be consistent to say that batteries and fast track are overpowered. But I'm not seeing that personally, nor am I seeing anyone agree with the batteries part.
Yeah, no, not having this debate about MFT not being a problem before and that batteries is equal to this.
Batteries is not, it has a radius, and MFT was a massive issue which led to it's nerf. -
@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067148#Comment_4067148
Batteries included and fire up are literally exactly what you said: killer brings the perk, and gains some permanent bonus when the survivors progress their objective.
I didn't see those two listed, that's fine, but you CANNOT claim those two perks are as strong.
Heck, Batteries Included has a range. Fire Up is…. Well, Fire Up. -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4066920#Comment_4066920
I think I can take a stab at explaining the logic, sincerely.
In a regular match of DBD, one that doesn't go off the rails from minute one, you can reliably guarantee to see certain things happen. Someone will be chased, some generators will be done, and someone will be hooked. Even one sided stomps tend to have these things happen unless they're really lopsided.
Because these things are not optional, they are required parts of a match in progress, they're seen as neutral activation triggers for certain perks, on both sides.Survivors have perks for doing their objective by finishing gens… but so do killers, with perks like Bitter Murmur, Batteries Included, Cruel Limits, etcetera.
Killers have perks for progressing towards their objective by getting hooks… but so do survivors, with perks like Kindred, Dead Hard, We'll Make It, etcetera.
Because these triggers aren't optional and will happen in a regular match, the perks that use them aren't punishing whichever side for doing their objective, they're just perks that activate based on expected match progression.
Both sides have them and this kind of perk never catches any flak unless one of them happens to be too good in and of itself, which is the actual issue with any actually problematic perk that uses one of these triggers.The problem is none of the perks you mentioned are permanent for doing your objective. New Fast Track would be more akin to killer getting permanent charges on each gen every time they get a hook, or permanent hindered for every down.
Edit: MOST of the perks you mentioned aren't permanent. And even still, only Fire Up is afaik and let's be real, anyone who thinks Fire Up = Fast Track, you need to play more killer.