ChaosWam
ChaosWam
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Would some kind of Draugr Viking work with this? I know they're Nordic in relation.
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How anyone is defending this bug is beyond me.
I have only played survivor since the new patch, and I'm living in situations where I absolutely should not have more than half my matches. Killers who are splitting hooks suffering the worst of it, since as soon as they get a kill on a SoloQ player who leaves, the last 2 gens pop after 1 gen is done. Turning a possibly 2k-3k into a instant loss unless they brought no way out.
Meanwhile, more killers are adapting the slug playstyle due to this, and I'm benefitting from UB and Soul Guard due to it since they typically also run Ruin or some kinda hex. This bug isn't justifiable since it can easily be abused, and the tunneled survivor is still getting tunneled anyway if the killer decides to.This is like if we decided the Merciless Storm bug was okay, the time it regressed gens back to 0 from 90.
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My only one complaint about him is he's tough to face on Lampkin Lane.
Which really, it's Lampkin more than Singu at that point.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3765602#Comment_3765602
i just don't play m1 killers. Like take Sadako for example. I don't want to queue into a random Sadako match to play against gen-speed swf's or second chances. the only silver point for Sadako is that you can't bodyblock as easily against her in end game. you pretty much rely on your opponent to make poor plays at loops and bad gen efficiency to win.
these strategies existing are all well and good but don't expect the majority of killer player to play weaker killers that. the player that do play weaker killer into that just hope they don't face swf and it is just casual soloq team with like aura perks and such.
I've personally kept up well against these kinds of survivors as Sadako, thankfully due to them eventually needing to nab tapes and having their items unusable. Even had one time someone tried to get a flashlight save but forgot they had a tape.
That said, Sadako suffers as an M1 for sure, and with gen speeds as they are she does need heavy assistance from regression and slowdown during the times survivors aren't holding tapes. Another good example for me personally is Hag (except for Mint Rag+Rusty Shackles, hoo boy is that an addon combo) I refuse to play Hag most of the time due to gen speeds and find Corrupt Intervention isn't enough at times.
Part of me thinks killers that rely on M1 should have a different map generation logic than killers with range or strong M2's. But that would be much harder to manage. -
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3765542#Comment_3765542
Like i said, SWF can still break gen speed. In theory, a team that uses 4 toolboxes is unbeatable if they make no mistakes. It is arguably survivors strongest strategy. At least in my opinion gen-speed SWF is stronger then Second chance SWF for High-tier killers but many people argue that med-kit is stronger item then toolbox. Overall it is not just med-kit itself, but how you use med-kit that can make it stronger or weaker.
With gen speeds getting optimized on top of it, it just exasperates the situation where chases don't need to be very long to get gens done quickly. Combining both of them makes it even worse to face.
I agree but a lot of player have the opinion that gen progression toolbox isn't that good. You know, med-kit better. I think it is good to have diverse perk and play-styles available but they also kinda need to be balanced in relationship to base game.
Obviously I don't think chases should be indefinite and exploitable with perks, look at what MFT did for awhile, but chases and avoiding the killer should be the bigger skill ceiling than just kitting out gen speeds and having a good runner save your team enough time to pop 3 gens before a down.
They already are exploitable.
Typically how second chance SWF plays is following
Chase 1: You face syringe(3 health-states). They go down under a pallet. A survivor that has 99% sprint burst or background player will threaten the killer. the killer if he picks up gets pallet saved. If he doesn't get picked up in ~25 seconds, the player will unbreakable in the killer face and stun them with a pallet. you have to go on to do 2nd chase. This like 3 minute first chase. You often get a lot of pallet pre-dropping, god pallets, safe pallet etc. etc. in first chase.
3 generator get done. Sometimes 4 gens. Let's call this "Unbreakable+Syringe stage"
You have two choices as killer, you either proxy camp survivor to tunnel or you go chase another survivor. if you chase another survivor, they can save their teammate, heal a survivor in 10.5 seconds with med-kit and hop on a generator. when you down survivor 2, you get same problem. survivor goes under a pallet, if you pick up → pallet save, if no pick up →unbreakable pallet stun. So logically at 1-2 gens, most killer proxy camp tunnel in this situation.
So you decide to tunnel off hook. You win the chase. The survivor obviously has decisive strike but you don't know that so you just pick up them anyway. you get hit by decisive strike, you down them again, hook them, all 5 gens done. you can try to slug them but you won't bleed them out and the spread out generator in all cases are undefendable.
Let's call this phase "Decisive strike phase".
In the end game, with 4 adrenalines, every survivor is fully healed so any injure pressure is completely gone for killer and when 3 survivor are healthy. survivors will attempt to do the bodyblock tech. the tech can be explained as following
- Run next to the hook within 10 meters with 3 survivors but stay a little bit away from killer attack range.
- Attempt to go close. If killer swings, successfully hitting the survivor, Unhook survivor during the attack recovery animation
- Walk in congo line. Injured survivors in #1, #2 position, Healthy survivors create a wall #3, #4. Run to exit gate.
So in summary, you have no early game as killer because slugging exploit+Red syringes. You cannot spread pressure because of med-kit healing. You have no mid-game potencial because of Dead hard/Exhaust perk+Decisive strike. You have no late game potencial because of 4 adrenaline.
VS weaker that are loopable, this gameplay is devastating. Most of weaker killer are vulnerable to bodyblocking and looping. Vs stronger killers, stronger killers are not loopable you can eat threw all second chances and still win. that is where generator efficiency SWF are better in my opinion. you can often play with less second chances when your good at survivor. With more oppressive gen speed, the stronger killer have less time to chew 7 hook-states and win. Your more likely to finish all 5 gens in record time before a high-tier killer successfully tunnels. both gameplay styles has merits with pros and cons.
Very well put. I assume this is worse off for M1 killers, as I can completely see this scenario being the worst for them as opposed to killers with a reasonable chase power. Unless you're bringing multiple counters to these scenarios like exhaust perks/addons, you can't really compete. And even more if they attempt to weaponize their Decisive Strikes, which hasn't been too problematic in my games as of right now and the ones that do usually end up slugged. I know I've stopped playing a few M1's because of groups like you've described.
I do think these scenarios also need to be adjusted as well while promoting the better aspects of chase and repair times, but as we've both covered there's very exploitable things on both ends and they both compliment each other's playstyles. But whatever changes are made, we have to keep in mind the overbearing aspects that killer does have and whatever survivors lack in terms of map design and perk synergies for both sides. -
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3765404#Comment_3765404
gen time are oppressive for killer with 0 toolboxes and 0 progression. Toolboxes and progression perk only take base foundation which is imbalanced and make it more imbalanced.
4 man swf that gen-rush already do all gens in like 5-6 minutes. you give 4 man swf now 4 toolboxes and now they're clearing the game in 3-4 minutes. A killer goes from like 3 hooks in 5-6 minutes to like 1 or 2 hooks.
in practice, the ideal for killer should be that when killer applies pressure and acquires hooks, the game slowdown for killer. when they fumble chase, they lose generators. with how it is now, you lose generator even when your applying pressure as killer. for example, if killer is successful in getting 3 hook in 4 minutes, the game should not be 6-7 minutes, it should be 7-8 minutes. if he gets 6 hooks, than the game should be 8-10 minutes etc.
oppressive gen-rushing only be possible with toolboxes and gen progression perks. the 6-7 minutes should be with toolboxes. right now you can kinda gen-rush without gen perks. that is why it is extremely common for SWF to just stack second chance mechanics such as Lithe, Dead hard, Sprint burst[Exhaust], Decisive strike, Adrenaline, Unbreakable with med-kit Syringe. You know, just have a bunch of second chances. SWF can break gen-speed in the game, but they don't need too. They kinda already have enough gen speed at base-kit because… killer has 0 good defence mechanics base-kit.
I'm not sure myself, you make good points. Although, in my experience I've had survivors fumble with second chance perks compared to groups that bring 2 gen jockeys with commodius/charge addons and a handful of deja vu's with 2 decently good runners.
Obviously taking the killer's attention is a time waster for the survs, but I feel like that's the healthier point of the killer vs survivor dynamic. Long chases rewards more time for the team and so on. With gen speeds getting optimized on top of it, it just exasperates the situation where chases don't need to be very long to get gens done quickly. Combining both of them makes it even worse to face.
Obviously I don't think chases should be indefinite and exploitable with perks, look at what MFT did for awhile, but chases and avoiding the killer should be the bigger skill ceiling than just kitting out gen speeds and having a good runner save your team enough time to pop 3 gens before a down.
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The reason this was implemented isn't because of hooks in the center of the map, it's survivors taking the killer to unhookable places once the solitary hook in a corner is used, therefore extending the game indefinitely or being forced to leave that survivor to heal in said corner.
Some maps are just generated poorly still, and I welcome this addition to help alleviate it. -
My only complaints about it is toolboxes. I wouldn't even be opposed to gen times being shorter again if toolboxes weren't so kitted out. One thing I've always said, is stuff like this should just have a hard cap.
Regression, Progression, %'s given and taken, both for healing and gen repair, maybe even haste and other speed stuff like vaults and break speeds would benefit from caps and stop both sides from going too far before problems arise. That, and perks could potentially be strong in their own right with said caps. Heck, even make a little stats HUD in the loadout menu to show all that stuff and how high it gets capped.
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No.
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I'll give Toba one thing, I've gotten used to it over time. It's not great, but at least I can play on it with mixed results.
The swamp maps though? Horrible maps. Hate both of them, their totem placements, killer station placements, just the visuals of it are annoying, and the hills of the map really screw with some killer powers while also just being annoying for me to navigate as survivor. It doesn't help that they have maybe one or two strong loops then usually garbage, or a strong vault in a corner that only is really effective against M1 killers. Even winning doesn't feel good on the swamps to me. -
@mecca said:
It should honestly become a "feature" granted the epidemic of tunneling and the near 100% impossibility of that 2 or 3 survivors will finish more than two gens. Killers really have no idea what it's like to be at a disadvantage.
Its really not a world ending situation if one survivor escapes because of a bug.
Absolutely no to this entire take.
I've had multiple times 3 survivors live, playing SoloQ mind you, because a killer spread hooks fairly and got a kill with 2 gens left. It's absolutely unacceptable and painting over the issue with 'but tunneling' is dishonest.
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@Langweilig said:
Yeah I had this too. It‘s extremely frustrating. Sadly it only happened when I played killer. It never happened as survivor for me :(.
I've had it happen as survivor far more than I'd like during my SoloQ sessions. It feels extremely cheap, especially when the killer is playing fairly.
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I don't think that's an option since Lara was released with this patch.
We, unfortunately, must wait it out.
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I knew these posts would begin popping up.
All I can say is, absolutely not. -
@k3ijus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/420825/put-a-cooldown-on-sadako-teleport
Its likely you faced a sadoka who used her iri addon that resulted in no cooldown after teleportation in tradeoff of you gaining condemn from tvs.
But if it wasn’t, you could always just get the tape and disable tvs for 70 seconds if its problematic, takes 3 seconds to do and its no longer high risk
Her only Iridescent addon that effects TVs condemned is her Iri Tape that removes the condemned from TVs entirely for teleports not turning off TVs.
As for OP, grab tapes. That's her cooldown. 70 seconds when you take a tape. She once had a cooldown and it was miserable to play as.
As for reverting her back to 1.0, I don't agree with that either. Nobody tends to remember why she was changed to begin with, since TVs were a joke to any survivor who avoided them, could run outside their condemned ranges, and generally could be ignored until around 3-4 stacks and at that point, the gens are already done. Current Sadako at least has some advantages over that, even if TVs can still hold her power hostage.
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PTB Knight was so good. Even without the ability to switch guards while one is active to replace it, the seperate cooldowns felt SO good to juggle and manage between which guard for which situation. Live Knight? Just use Assassin. There's no reason to use Jailer because of the cooldowns and Carnifax is only useful for pallet breaking or combined with Knight's Contract.
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@MaddieMage said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3762493#Comment_3762493
Not possible. Only two survivors per class allowed each match. This is a perfect reason why you play the mode before you start critiquing it.
I hadn't heard that part actually. That's very good to know. Though I wonder if that will effect queue times.
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I wouldn't say it's all sunshine for killers either, especially for Dredge and how lockers get placed.
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Guarantee there would be more thumbs ups if it were easier to access (and possibly gave the receiver some extra BP or something)
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I mean, that's kind of the territory with eldrich horrors, right?
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I'll reserve judgement for after I try it, but yeah, I highly expect full lobbies of Escapists.
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Can't wait until they're made into features.
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@Laluzi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3761651#Comment_3761651
I don't think anything will ever match the magic of the Nicolas Cage PTB. Survivors running up to you, screaming at you, and flopping over dead. Poetry.
I still run Scene Partner on Nic and Yoichi.
I love facing Twins and waiting for Charlotte to come back from Victor.
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Scene Partner.
It's always funny to hear a random scream I didn't create.
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I feel like there's a lot of other things they could do instead of bringing back early hatch.
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Doesn't make me want to stop playing, but it does make me want to play anything but Knight.
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I thought I was going nuts because I didn't know about the new Ormand variation when I got thrown into it today. (I like playing, then reading patch notes. Because I'm crazy.)
Stuff like this feels weird. Not bad, but weird.
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I think the skin works best if you're trying to be bait and have a build for chase.
Otherwise, yeah, this.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3761238#Comment_3761238
if every guard was equally good at everything, there would be no reason to have 3 guards, just have 1 guard that does everything. i believe this what knight's skill-cieling was suppose to be but wasn't.
the negative changes didn't need to happen but it is whatever.
I'd be happy with that too, except between the global cooldown, lack of guard swapping and time wasted on using Jailer over the other two, it feels really bad.
As it stands, there's no reason to send out any other guard than Assassin because he can sometimes get hits. Only use Carnifax if you're off cooldown for pallets. Jailer locks you out too long if the survivor can loop and getting close negates him due to the hunt regression anyway. -
@jezebelthenun said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3761289#Comment_3761289
Definitely not arguing there, more just saying that the more content we get, the harder it'll be to actually balance anything meaningfully or on a way that appeases a larger overall demographic. And let's be real, if you play something and you love it because it feels easy, it's probably too easy. That's for survivor and killer alike. We'll hate any change that removes an effortless victory. (Knight being one of the easier victories once he was mastered, survivors being fairly peeved when BNP was nerfed, etc)
I've said that in another discussion actually, as if BHVR has added so many things that they don't have the manpower to make meaningful changes in a decent timeframe, especially with releases coming at the pace they are.
That said, it's worse when you have a dedicated community recommended changes, PTBs, and a dev team and still manage to put out an update that feels worse than it was in the PTB. Especially when a bug made it feel way better.
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@jezebelthenun said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3761112#Comment_3761112
There's no reason we should celebrate content being put in a terrible state.
The entire game is in a horrible state of content fatigue, though. And it's only going to get worse and worse. There's such a thing as too many killers, survivors, and perks, and that the biggest problem the game already faces. Too much cosmetic and "new" content and not enough actual whole game qol/balance focus. Cash cows, though, amirite?
And yet when we try to get these QoL balances, it's always people wanting stuff to be unusable/horrible to play for the sake of 'well I don't like that character anyway'
You can make an argument for content fatigue, but it has nothing to do with balance changes and altercations to kits that are clearly negative.
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From my own tests:
Carnifax is only good paired with Knight's Contract, and used for breaking pallets now.
Assassin is the best to try and get hits and have your power back faster.
Jailer is only good for pincer attacks, and you'd better plan that far ahead or else you're wasting too much time.
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@DragonMasterDarren said:
I've been playing a ton of Knight now that the rework's on live servers and honestly, I'm not seeing it, the only way these changes are a nerf is if you played Knight in the most brainless way possible and dumped a guard at every pallet
Carni breaks pallets instantly, letting you bulldoze through small loops and saving yourself some time outside of chase
Assassin can be used to pincer survivors inside of loops or keep pressure on them if you can predict where they're running to, hell I have been able to get Assassin hits even when the survivor uses Sprint Burst thanks to the increased duration
And Jailor keeps survivors busy for several eternities, AND can still be used in chase thanks to his much longer hunt duration
Knight has not been nerfed, Knight has been buffed, the only way you could see the much better Hunts as a nerf is if you were a meathead and dumped a Guard at every pallet for free zoning, use your brain and he'll be much, much more effective
I always played knight as a split pusher and I can see how these are nerfs.
Personally I'm glad placing at your feet is gone, but the downsides:
- Global power cooldown post-guard return feels awful. They really should have kept cooldowns between guards to punish spamming and promote smarter allocations of your guards. Heck, the bug that let him swap guards in the PTB quickly while they were out would be balanced with this exact cooldown system.
- Hunt regression time by proximity, while a good idea to negate the worst of his pincer options, is too much to do reliant pincer attacks in complicated tiles. Especially with how his AI still acts.
- Far too easy to juke the guards with windows now. I've been doing it against a few Knights.
- Jailer time increase is great, until you realize paired with the global cooldown it means you're down a guard for too long using him. You have to hope he gets a hit early if you use him for wasting time.
I think the only positive I can think of is the change to Knight's Contract.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3761112#Comment_3761112
If someone shares such an opinion, no matter what you say is not going to change it.
There is nothing rational going behind that. It's such a waste of time and you just invite them for follow up.
While that's true, it can still be said for anyone else reading. I don't need to convince the one person, the sentiment can be shared though so we can try to prevent this from happening with future changes.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3761102#Comment_3761102
Don't feed the trolls
I'm not going to say they're trolling, considering I've seen the same opinion said about SM, Sadako, Blight, Nurse, Wesker, Xeno, Trickster and Billy.
There's no reason we should celebrate content being put in a terrible state. For example, I dislike SM for her visuals and lore, but I'd never celebrate if they nerfed her to a state where it's an uphill battle to even do the basic function of a killer. I think it needs to be said, regardless of trolls or not, because I know people think that way.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
Very happy thank you, I hated loading in to see the killer is Knight so hopefully that will be rarer after this. Now if they could just kill off Trickster and SM too…
Yes, let's make content worse for the sake of previous iterations being bad instead of recommending better changes.
/s
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@Leachy_Jr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3760942#Comment_3760942
No, as in after you summon a guard and he returns to you, he cannot use another for the next 15s*.
Before the update, the cooldown was only 3s.
His cooldowns are supposed to be split, not universal.
Oh good, that wasn't in the PTB either.
Fun times for Knight. Already made one angry enough to slug everyone out of frustration because he spammed Jailer and I could juke it with a dropped pallet even during chase.
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A positive.
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I've had this happen several times, with friends and in SoloQ and everyone gets kicked out of the match. I've also noticed it happens the most when someone is hooked, someone is grabbed from a locker, or if someone is picked up. I tried to submit a ticket and over a few days was told it was my connection, my internet settings, port settings, and other things I'd never have touched and were exactly the same as they recommended. They even shut down the ticket and said to contact my ISP.
I'd love the ability to have a connection that kicks an entirely server side lobby out like this, but I don't think it's on my end when in a SWF of 3 all of us get kicked exactly the same at the same time.
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@AggressiveFTW said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3760293#Comment_3760293
I long for the day the regression perks are no longer needed and are reworked to something different. In the perfect of worlds, the only gen perks we need are Trail of Torment and other perks like that. Gen perks that actually impact the game in a fun game. Rather than running gen perks just as an attempt to fix core-game issues by doing band-aid fixes.
Exactly why I love Unforseen as a perk.
It's a gen kick perk that doesn't effect regression, but plays into stealth and TR tricks. I combo it with Dark Devotion, my other personal favorite perk, to constantly move my TR around. It's actually quite fun.
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@TheSubstitute said:
I don't really see how it would work. For survivors it's more giving them a side objective and survivors have more hands to work with. Spending 60 seconds in the basement and then having to find survivors to chase off gens would result in two to three gens popping at mid MMR and above unless the Killer did something like slug three of the survivors first (in which case the survivors could reset entirely). Putting in an effect that's even comparable to the lost pressure or gens would feel too oppressive to the survivors.
For 2v8 maybe it would work. Give it a shorter activation time and give aura reading on all of the survivors for x seconds. Nobody sensible is going to assume 2v8 will be possible to balance anyway so it could be a fun thing to do there. In 1v4 matches though the Killer just doesn't have the time to do something like that since the Killer has to handle 4 people at once by themselves.
It's why I considered the difference between boons and hexes, with one active immediately and one needing to be blessed.
Though if there were an active effect in basement, I feel as if it would need a different mechanic than hexes, can't just reuse that idea. There would need to be a good reason killer goes to basement at all for exactly the reasons you and others have mentioned. -
The real issue is survivor MMR makes no sense.
Killer MMR I've noticed change over time, I'm at the point where killers I barely touch go against full kitted survivors with 2 man to 4 man SWF groups that know every loop and counterplay to every perk setup and map. Meanwhile the killers I main don't get put against those same survivors, rarely if ever, and I get survivors who make a lot of mistakes, don't know how the mechanics work, and bully their teammates.
On survivor? Sometimes I get useful teams. But most of the time it's people losing chases quickly and disrespecting the killer's powers/perks/hexes. It feels like the 'escape to raise MMR/die to drop MMR' isn't working as intended, and REALLY needs to be better looked at to adjust to personal skill over escapes and deaths. I would feel better dying to get the other three out and still have what I did considered over the current situation. -
@IlliterateGenocide said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3758196#Comment_3758196
yes but he did popularize a absently frustrating onryo tech that absolutely made it so onryo had to go through all these changes. uwu
Ironically, with a TV placement like that it makes getting condemned stacks easy like the old days, when survivors need to run down under to grab it. This one and the Midwich music room generator TV spawning under it are good examples of the killer stations logic being wonky.
Then there's the ones like Swamp, facing the outer walls and some TVs unable to apply condemned to their assigned gen at all. And then there's the D&D map that just bewilders me with how close the stations can spawn in general.
I think if he hadn't figured out the early Sadako strats, someone else would have and resulted in these changes eventually anyway. That said, the video still highlights a current problem.
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It feels like BHVR have stretched out their reach too far on making changes quickly enough with all these releases, like they don't have enough people to look through it all and adjust things.
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Alright this is a good argument against the combo, I will say.
The only counterplay I can think of is avoiding your items like the plague, which isn't viable near gens. -
@Marioneo said:
Best were gonna get is basement scrouge hook perks
You mean Scourge Hook: Monstrous Shrine?
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@TieBreaker said:
Trapper sits in the basement for sixty seconds and in return gets unlimited traps.
@bjorksnas said:
They don't really have enough time to use perks like that unless they have someone slugged 2 feet away to buy some extra time, it would need to be something short like 10 or 15s and even then it probably would be hard to balance being worth it
@BoopDaDoop said:
I don't think there is any perk worth 60 seconds of killer time that isn't ridiculous and I don't want that because I play killer for constant action. If I wanted to waste 60 seconds for objectives i would play survivor more.
It wouldn't necessarily be time-based, much like how Boons and Hexes work differently.
Perhaps a killer goes to the basement to get a timed buff after a few seconds and has to return there to reapply the buff, adding more time they need to wait at the circle to receive the buff or a token amount. Sky's the limit on how it could be implemented, I guess. -
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3759377#Comment_3759377
i don't think assassin should be getting juked. you can't help the assassin with 3x depletion and your good play as killer loses meaning.
I do agree with this one, I think Assassin should have a counter to the window juke they implemented.
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I think it could work, as long as the revived survivor is permanently broken on death hook or something. Or maybe even give them a timer for how long they can be reanimated in the trial.
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I agree. I think 8 seconds to open is a better tradeoff though if you buff the contents rarities.