Blueberry
Blueberry
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@Uxoxe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3496271#Comment_3496271
Good players yes, not players that have an unfair advantage, like SWFs. Which, I need remind you, is something Killer mains have said for ages, should no exist in the game because the game was designed around it. Yet, the game is being balanced around something that most killer-mains have also said was cheating on these forums.
The majority of the games are not solo queue first of all, especially at higher mmr. I’d say like 10% of my matches are actually total solo queue. Secondly the devs are currently balancing around solo queue, and bad solo queue players at that. The game is not currently balanced around swf at all.
It’s extremely hyperbolic to say people are wanting the game balanced around some small single digit player base. That just isn’t the case. What people do generally mean when they say balance for good players is like the top 30%. Which is very reasonable. The games currently balanced for a full solo queue group with each like sub 300 hours, which is quite bottom of the barrel and why the games current balance is a complete mess since balancing around people who have no idea what they’re doing doesn’t work.
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I would make it 2%, actually apply exhaustion to yourself so you can’t stack it with other exhaustions, and remove the endurance component.
This makes it just a flat 2%, nothing else, and unstackable. As survivor I would still run this solely for a 2% as even that is still massive. Even with these nerfs I would still put it at at least a solid A tier for sure.
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There are already many, many counters to slugging that exist.
The hate of slugging is completely irrational. You can do way more on the ground than you can on the hook, that’s just facts. So slugging is objectively less boring than being on a hook. Slugging also gives you a potential second chance at life as well.
The REAL reason people hate slugging is because it’s an ego check. It shows the killer feels confident he can down you again and they don’t like that. The only reason is because they just want the hook so they can remove themselves from the game as fast as possible and slugging denies their rage quit.
I would always rather be slugged. If anything we need more slugging perks.
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Couldn’t be generic as they’d make no money. You need to give financial incentive.
So it would be like a paid chapter to get the perks, just instead of a killer or survivor it would be a huge pile of additional perks.
The set of reworked or buffed perks would be free though.
I’d be down for this idea.
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Totally agree.
A full team disconnects at the start since they don’t like my killer and then I’m forced to play a boring match against bots that I have no interest in. I play for the pvp factor. If it’s not players I’d rather the match be over or at least allow me to leave without a penalty.
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I play solo queue predominately and don’t have many issues, it’s not that bad.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3496867#Comment_3496867
the condemn play style from both sides feels unique and engaging as it puts a lot of multitasking
Completely agree! I think playing against it is a nice change of pace from the regular gameplay loop. Plus, I like having more things to do as a survivor. After 7 years, running around planks of wood and lifting people off hooks can get tedious, so I personnaly love the killers that have an interesting side objective. Onryō and Pig are two of my favourite killers to go against for this reason.
Still don’t understand why a stealth killer has a lullaby
Agree as well. So many of her add-ons are pointless because of her Lullaby too. Like Clump of Hair reducing visibility range by 6 metres while Demanifsted. What difference does that make if they can hear you coming with loud screechy noises?
Totally agree!
Some people have said she just hits and runs without chasing but I don’t think this is true at all. If she was a “real” stealth killer then sure I could see this. However because of her lullaby she is essentially never getting free hits like other stealth killers as they always know you’re coming. They may get one hit and then leave, but they had to chase and play a loop for that hit. So I think it’s very disingenuous when people say she doesn’t chase.
My only complaint is how reliant she is on Iri Tape for the condemn build against good survivors and I wish it was base kit. Being able to drop in any tv right next to you is just too fast and easy to be able to reliably build stacks if the players know what they’re doing.
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I personally would like her left how she is, the condemn play style from both sides feels unique and engaging as it puts a lot of multitasking and involvement with tapes which weren’t a thing prior. The times I see it appear overly strong is only when survivors ignore the tapes and get punished for not respecting the condemn, as they should.
Outside of the condemn build I think she’s really bad. If they for some reason nerfed her condemn build she would need massive buffs around everything else.
Still don’t understand why a stealth killer has a lullaby. It’s just silly.
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Agreed. 4 people all dc right at the start and I’m forced to play an entire match against bots, super boring.
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@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495914#Comment_3495914
How so? You can still rack up condemned quick enough and it won't go away until the survivor does tapes even after a hook.
Even before your first 2 nerfs, just your 3rd change alone would put her in like low C tier, at best. Requiring pick up, carry and hook time for each down will slow down her pressure significantly. Plus needing 3 downs on each person before the condemn even matters. With 1 and 2 included her condemn would now be coming so much slower combined with 3 to the extent that it wouldn’t be a viable win condition anymore. Which that can be fine if she has other tools to compensate, but it’s literally all she has right now.
These nerfs are wayyy more significant than I feel like you think they are. She would need massive buffs in other areas to compensate.
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@ChaosWam said:
As a Sadako main:
- Reduce tape-slap to 1 condemn stack
- When you lose a tape, you have 10-15 seconds of condemn immunity so she can't start building more onto you immediately.
- Full condemned is an instant down, and ONLY a Mori on death hook
These changes would literally put her in F tier.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495843#Comment_3495843
the thing is that iri-tape greatly buff her condemn and it makes way more challenging to remove it. after playing many games, my conclusion is that iri-tape base-kit is kinda like pre-nerf iri hatchets for her. iri-type level add-on like that usually get nerfed to avoid killers from using it to pub-stomp. I could see them putting a heavy drawback on add-on such as making it remove all condemn stacks upon insert a tape discourage usage of that add-on. Its not inherently bad to have super powerful add-on but survivor likely do not want to face extremely unfair add-on's just like killer do not want to face 4 BNP that instantly complete a generator. if sadako more buffs then it should found in other places like in the chase & stealth. if anything I am more convinced of sadako being too strong based off my opponents struggling to defeat the killer then killer needing improvements.
I wouldn’t put Iri Tape even remotely close to the pub stomp power of Iri Head. Iri Head was unfair, I don’t think Iri Tape is unfair at all. Iri Tape feels like a gold standard of what other Iri addons should be.
That all said, if your idea is to nerf the tape but buff her in other ways to compensate then I could get behind that depending what we’re talking.
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@WiseTraveler said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495843#Comment_3495843
When it comes to solo queue it's one of two things
- It's too difficult to use the counter / the counter isn't good enough
- Survivors are not adapting to the change.
If the counter is not good enough to stop the condemnation then explain why she feels like she has no power against four tape holders / organized team.
The issue is not how strong or weak Sadako is, the issue is skill expression. In solo queue, it is more difficult to express your skill. But the tapes also limit the killer's skill expression if survivors use them correctly. Something needs to be changed so that survivors in solo queue can express their skill, but the killer also has the power to express their skill against the best of the best.
Even if survivors some how adapt to the changes, the tapes are still strong enough in the current state to limit the skill expression of the killer and I don't think tapes should be able to do that.
I am open to any changes that change as long as it keeps survivor and killer skill expression.
I don’t feel like her design limits hers or the survivors skill expression. Both have skilled counter play.
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I enjoy that it’s such a unique match and how the round plays out compared to every other killer. Both sides are playing differently than normal. I like the polarity of her power and how there’s room for both sides to take hold of it.
Out of like 20 games today I had maybe 2 teams that actually played against it properly and respected the condemn. Most survivors I think just don’t know what they’re doing, try to ignore tapes and just do gens, get mori’d, then come screaming OP after having done zero adapting.
The teams that actually utilized her counter play made a quite close game. Well balanced.
My only complaint is how reliant she is on her Iri Tape. That should be base kit. Being able to drop into any tv is just too easy and negates any of the slow down it would’ve otherwise provided.
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@DY86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495556#Comment_3495556
yesterday Otzdarva livestreamed with 3 other survivors with over 5k hours each, ALL getting moried. If it were that simple it would be fine but it isn’t. Just take a look ate the forum posts. Peace
Keep in mind while yea they pulled very experienced survivors to show how good it is, they also pulled a very experienced Sadako. Just like people enjoy saying killers don’t go against survivors like that often, you won’t go against killers that good that often either.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495688#Comment_3495688
that is because you do not realize you have made a mistake. soloq has many inefficiency errors. killer also make inefficiency errors as well. there is famous quote by Johan Cruyff.
Football is a game of mistakes. Whoever makes the fewest mistakes wins.
that can be applied to every game. every game is a game of mistakes. the player that makes the fewest mistakes wins. what is important to note is that not every mistake is avoidable and not every game is perfectly fair in every instance. as a result, you have to win on the greatest sum of parts. this is to say that let say 10 scenerio's play out, 2 scenarios can be unfair/skewed against you but 8 scenarios can be changed. do not focus on 2 scenarios that are skewed. focus on the 8 scenario's where it was possible to change outcome.
"The core issue is map design however, so hypothetically if maps were correctly I would pull back on a lot of this, but I don't see those getting fixed as most their map reworks have been failures balance wise and they're still currently releasing brand new maps that already come out very unbalanced.".
map design is imbalanced in many instances but you need to focus on what is possible to change outcome on every map. I am not entirely sold that map balance is entirely the problem. I think it is more how killer deal with said problem. it is how killer powers lack gameplay towards survivor gameplay more so then maps being imbalanced. if killer uses their power well and the killer power has a lot of skill-expression then killer can mitigate and sometimes entirely avoid the map design problems entirely.
"that is because you do not realize you have made a mistake. soloq has many inefficiency errors."
I literally said it was "me" or "my team" making mistakes. How is that not realizing I made a mistake when I said it was me making mistakes?
So you agree about it being solo queue inefficiency errors. That's my point. It's a skill issue, not a balance one.
"if killer uses their power well and the killer power has a lot of skill-expression then killer can mitigate and sometimes entirely avoid the map design problems entirely."
Hard disagree. I feel like you think killers have way more agency than they do. Most of the killer roster, bar some exceptions, rely on survivor mistakes to win. If both sides played perfectly, killer would lose every single time. It doesn't matter how good you play as most killers, the map design is so bad on most maps that you can play perfectly and still lose if they also play it perfectly. Most the killer roster does not have the tools to counteract how bad the map design is.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495416#Comment_3495416
I do still think it's just giving buffs to people that are losing because of skill and just giving them artificial wins they didn't necessarily deserve.
I think this is opposite problem. soloq are acquiring losses out of their control because they do not have the tools to avoid making mistakes.
The biggest advantage of swf isn't info, it's guaranteed good players
Just because your a swf does not suddenly make you a good player. what SWF does is give you the TOOLS to become a good player. If you use said tools correctly then you greatly benefit from being a SWF. you have greater chance to escape and greater chance to win.
Kindred does not make you instantly win. Its simply tool to make you play better by avoiding mistakes specifically this type of mistake:
I actually disagree here, it is massive. Even one time getting off that extra survivor gave up nearly half an entire generator between running there and then back. That is huge. Now imagine if that happened more than once. That could literally be the difference between a win and loss.
Never once have I lost a solo queue game and been like, wow I lost that from lack of tools. It was either me playing badly or my team. Solo queues issue isn't a balance one.
They already have all the tools they need, it's just a lack of skill.
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@EternalRique said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495486#Comment_3495486
Ok I can understand your point; however, no killer should be able to kill every survivor with 0 hook stages period.
That's quite a blanket statement. What if the 0 hooks kill takes 30min of build up? Well now that seems terrible doesn't it.
What you're wanting to imply is that she shouldn't be able to condemn so easily, of which I would say it's not, most people just don't know what they're doing and playing against her incorrectly.
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@EternalRique said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495471#Comment_3495471
Not necessarily cause if you're against survivors who don't know what they are doing to counter her (aka not grabbing any tapes and letting condemn build) you are given a kill when they are on death hook. If Pyramid Head has to build punishment by using his barbed wires and only kill at death hook, then why not Sadako? It's only fair for everyone and it'll make versing her more rewarding.
Less Sadako players abusing the mechanic and more skill involved for everyone, survivors will have to play smart as well as the killer.
So if people play bad I get rewarded with saving hook time only on the last hook? That's trash.
"If Pyramid Head has to build punishment by using his barbed wires and only kill at death hook, then why not Sadako?"
Because you're ignoring THE best part of PH's which is saving MULTIPLE hook times, not just the last one. Big difference.
PH also has anti-loop. Sadako has nothing else.
You're also massively downplaying the Sadako skill required for that play style.
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I find the main issue is that most people are still playing against her incorrectly and trying to do it how you would old Sadako.
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@EternalRique said:
I think a fair change would simply be to make her basekit mori (condemned mori) only apply if you are on death hook just like Pyramid Head's mori and the offerings.
That would keep her power in the same reworked state while just bringing her inline with other killers and the rest of the game's mechanic.
Then the condemn may as well be deleted as then it's pointless.
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And even her stealth is bad with a lullaby lol
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"just get the tapes early to avoid condemned doesn't work against a experience Sadako"
This is like saying, "I lose when the other player is better than me, this needs changing".
I would say that's good design.
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No. Knockout is a very rarely ran perk as is, it does not need more nerfs. I can't even remember the last time I saw someone run it.
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@AssortedSorting said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495381#Comment_3495381
Hmm. It's not seeming the same.
Pig's slowdown is more or less passive. And hey, a Survivor might get unlucky or path incorrectly and you get a headpop. Or you can interject and track that Survivor on the box, but it comes at a detriment to your slowdown on other Survivors if you haven't placed all of your RBT's. But you still interact with Hooks and multiple chases over the course of the match.
With Sadako, at least with the match I just played, you have to actively teleport the whole time and forgo chases almost entirely, just teleporting the whole time to get condemned as fast as possible and to limit the number of TV's Survivors can interact with. Got a 4K with only 1 Hook (closed hatch and wasn't going to let the Survivor through the Exit Gates accidentally by teleporting). Though it was RPD, and mobility is a premium there.
"Pig's slowdown is more or less passive"
I disagree very much. It's passive if the Pig is playing Pig incorrectly, and that's not getting nearly the potential value they could be getting from them if playing actively. It's a lot of macro play with understanding where survivors are on gens and boxes and split pressuring them. You create enough backup on the traps that they start making misplays. The traps also allow you to play an early 1v3 or 1v2 to multipressure. It's lots of juggling, which is what the new Sadako is as well. The new Sadako is more intense juggling than Pig I would say though. Takes more skill and fast paced.
The spam teleporting on Sadako only does so much, you do still need to commit to hits, even if it's not downs for the people holding tapes. So she will have to play loops as a basic m1 with nothing else.
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@chibizodo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495389#Comment_3495389
Regardless, I don’t need a tape as soon as I start, I shouldn’t have to grab one as soon as the game starts in order to protect myself from condemn and I shouldn’t have to sit at a tv and wait for it to turn back on only for her to just use it again. It’s frustrating, we had a game everyone was struggling to find a tv that was open but every time the sadako would use it before we could grab the tape
I disagree, if you aren't grabbing one right at the start that is a misplay. Having to get a tape when the game starts is not bad design, there's no issue with that. It's just different game play. I also do not think you need to sit at a tv and wait for it to turn on, that's a bit hyperbolic. You have to be aggressive with controlling your condemn early on, not wait till it's getting high. The condemn slow down is literally the only thing she has. She has nothing else, she's a basic m1 that's loopable.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495352#Comment_3495352
I think it's unfair to label everyone complaining as simply being bad players. Certainly some are, but the quality of an idea shouldn't come from those who argue for it, it should come from the idea itself.
But, even if we set aside the game-feel argument for a moment, there's still the balance idea. I don't actually agree that the game is balanced around bad players, it feels more like it's currently balanced around generally decent players who don't choose to play 100% optimally all the time, which is a different concept - there's a difference between default Claudette self-caring in a corner, and a decent player that likes doing archives and gimmick builds, after all - but the fact remains that balancing the game around even decent players means acknowledging the elephant in the room that is SWF.
Now, SWF is made into an unfair boogeyman a lot of the time, I won't deny that. Your average SWF is not an unbeatable menace that is guaranteed to give you a miserable game, and I won't pretend they are, but I will state the claim that the average SWF is still inherently affected differently by balance changes to even an above-average solo queue player. Regardless of exactly how skilled a player the game wants to be balanced around, they still need to push for solo and SWF being affected more equally by balance changes, because regardless of skill level they currently aren't.
It doesn't take skill to say "I have -insert teamwork based perk-" or "I'm going for the save", and so those two specific callouts need basekit equivalents for the whole game if balancing is going to be properly effective.
As for the efficiency on gens argument - this is a separate argument to the balance one, to be clear, and... I think you're maybe right, but I think you're exaggerating the effect of it. You don't exactly lose a ton of gen time when two people go for the same save because they didn't have Kindred-- it isn't nothing, and it'd add up if it happens more than once, but I would personally say I don't think it's game-changing. That is why it's a buff, btw, and not just a QoL change like that challenge tracker they added- I am open about it being a solo queue buff, I won't deny that. I just don't think it's a buff that means killers must necessarily be compensated in some way, because all it does is remove the hypothetical bottom of the barrel when it comes to match quality.
By which I mean- it won't make your average opponents actually better than your average opponents now, but it would raise the floor of how below average they can be, if that makes sense?
That's why I equate it to the bots- an early 3v1 shouldn't be considered a genuine advantage, but the absolute bottom of below-average resistance a team can put up. The bots are a buff in that they prevent this from being the bottom, but they don't actually raise the average. I'll grant they have less effect on the average match than solo queue buffs, because they won't even ideally be in the average match, but the overall principle remains the same. Getting an extra hook state or the opponents losing slight generator efficiency because nobody equipped Kindred shouldn't be considered a genuine advantage, it should be that bottom of the barrel; value you got because something went wrong, not because you played well or your opponents played poorly. If your opponents still play poorly, that info isn't going to help them still, so that's why I think it's an acceptable buff.
Regarding killer balancing, too, we're kind of at the point where there's not much that killers need in terms of sweeping basekit buffs. I think what BHVR would probably do is look at which killers struggle in response to any given survivor change, and look at tweaking them specifically in some way. I think that would be just as effective and acceptable as basekit changes, but I think people overlook that kind of thing in a sort of, one-for-one "they got something we should get something" kind of attitude, which I think is a little narrow-minded.
Any time, cordial discourse is why I joined the forums, lol.
"I think it's unfair to label everyone complaining as simply being bad players. Certainly some are, but the quality of an idea shouldn't come from those who argue for it, it should come from the idea itself."
That's why I said typically, not everyone. I agree it should be based on the ideas and not the people, which is what I try to always practice. I was more pointing out a correlation I noticed, not a causation. I don't feel like I've typically heard good arguments for why we should buff solo queue.
"it's currently balanced around generally decent players who don't choose to play 100% optimally all the time"
That's a fair stance and those players are close enough to the ones I was referencing that I could see a fair argument for that. I don't think our balance stances are too far apart.
"Your average SWF is not an unbeatable menace that is guaranteed to give you a miserable game"
I feel like this is a strawman many people throw at killers and like to pretend this is what most killers are saying when it's not. Most killers do not think this, they just think it's a massive unfair and unbalanced for advantage, which I would agree with.
"Regardless of exactly how skilled a player the game wants to be balanced around, they still need to push for solo and SWF being affected more equally by balance changes"
Unfortunately this feels like a near impossible task and even if it was would that be good? We already said the game isn't balanced around swf. So if were buffing both equally then swf, which already has a huge advantage, would still technically be getting even further ahead of its already existing lead. Ideally we'd want things that don't buff swf at all, but as said before, that's near impossible.
"You don't exactly lose a ton of gen time when two people go for the same save because they didn't have Kindred-- it isn't nothing, and it'd add up if it happens more than once, but I would personally say I don't think it's game-changing."
I actually disagree here, it is massive. Even one time getting off that extra survivor gave up nearly half an entire generator between running there and then back. That is huge. Now imagine if that happened more than once. That could literally be the difference between a win and loss.
"By which I mean- it won't make your average opponents actually better than your average opponents now, but it would raise the floor of how below average they can be, if that makes sense?"
I can see what you're saying and that's a fair point. I just see it inadvertently buffing many who are already over the balance line and pushing them further. If we could somehow hypothetically make it where it really was only the dead bottom then I could see that as being okay, even though I do still think it's just giving buffs to people that are losing because of skill and just giving them artificial wins they didn't necessarily deserve. That's a big hypothetical scenario though that I don't see as actually being achievable is the problem. How do we buff the bottom without buffing the others that don't need it?
"Regarding killer balancing, too, we're kind of at the point where there's not much that killers need in terms of sweeping basekit buffs"
This will be another point we're going to disagree heavily on. Like 90% of the killer roster needs buffs of varying degrees with like 50% of them needing large buffs. The core issue is map design however, so hypothetically if maps were correctly I would pull back on a lot of this, but I don't see those getting fixed as most their map reworks have been failures balance wise and they're still currently releasing brand new maps that already come out very unbalanced.
"but I think people overlook that kind of thing in a sort of, one-for-one "they got something we should get something" kind of attitude, which I think is a little narrow-minded."
People do this that's true, but this isn't where I'm coming from at all with my thoughts.
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@chibizodo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495382#Comment_3495382
Where are the TVs tho we can’t see them so idk where the TVs spawn, by the time I find one she’s already used it;
There's generally one by every generator and then extra around the middle of the map. They're also quite loud so you can hear them.
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@chibizodo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495367#Comment_3495367
Bc you can’t get a tape from the TVs that are turned off, the Sadako’s I face continuously go thru the tvs I can’t get a tape if they’re all turned off
As soon as they turn on at the start of the match there should be plenty of tv's as she hasn't had a chance to start shutting them off.
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@AssortedSorting said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495357#Comment_3495357
That's dependent on a Survivors ability to get a tape in the first place. Given they need to compete against Sadako and other Survivors to grab a tape to prevent condem from stacking.
And if her tapes aren't acting as slowdown at all, then there's another problem in that they're not acting as slowdown in in the first place.
I'll need to try out Sadako. I've enjoyed playing Pig, so I wonder how much of a similarity there will be.
"That's dependent on a Survivors ability to get a tape in the first place. Given they need to compete against Sadako and other Survivors to grab a tape to prevent condem from stacking."
I feel like even with her 10 second cooldown there are plenty of tv's available to be able to grab one, especially at the start as soon as they all turn on.
"And if her tapes aren't acting as slowdown at all, then there's another problem in that they're not acting as slowdown in in the first place."
This is why I'd want her Iri Tape base kit for extra slow down.
"I'll need to try out Sadako. I've enjoyed playing Pig, so I wonder how much of a similarity there will be."
They're actually very similar now. Pig is my current main. All about the macro game play with juggling and less of the micro.
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@chibizodo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495359#Comment_3495359
I can’t find a tv to get a tape from is the problem I know holding a tape you don’t gain condemn but I can’t find one before she tps thru them they’re all turned off lmao
I'm not sure how you're not getting a tape, I've yet to have a single match against her where I'm not basically carrying a tape the entire game.
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@chibizodo said:
I just find it annoying that I can’t find a tv to even get a tape from bc she keeps using the ones I’m going to, I finally find a tv to rid of condemn but she uses that tv now I have to find another all while gaining condemn stacks while I search for a tv that isn’t turned off
When you're running around with a tape looking for a tv you shouldn't be getting any stacks at all.
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@AssortedSorting said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495314#Comment_3495314
Depends on how much slowdown the tapes cause.
Every player is a bad player in a deadzone caused by pallet attrition.
Here's the thing, the better you are at looping and chases, the less slow down the tapes are causing.
Also I'm not finding Onryo matches to be lasting longer than any other normal games to where the attrition is any different than average.
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"The lack of information still both feels bad for good players"
I disagree. The information feels fine for actual good players in my opinion. The people typically complaining are the bad players.
" if it is needed then BHVR certainly will"
That is a massive IF. Given their track record which is extremely bad, I don't feel they have a good understanding of their games balance to even know "if" it's needed. I feel like this would be trusting someone you know to make the right decision when they've made the wrong decision 90% of the time in the past.
"when the information we're talking about here is useless in the hands of poor players and would only be nice to have for good players."
I mean we did already say the game's not balanced around good players. So that would be buffing people that already have an unfair advantage.
"Take this thread's particular example- I can't conceive of a world where half a Kindred basekit is actually going to require killer buffs to compensate. It just isn't going to have that kind of impact, at worst it'll prevent the handful of matches you might have where someone goes to second stage or dies without a save because you got particularly disorganised solos."
This would essentially make the team way more efficient on gens in a world where gens are already going too fast. The HUD realistically already shows this anyway. 1 on hook, 2 on gens, 1 on nothing. The one guy on nothing is obviously going for the unhook in 99% of the situations unless it's some random new person with sub 50 hours hiding in a corner which isn't really representative of anything.
"What half a basekit Kindred would do is bring solo queue to a point where it's a better basis for overall balance, and it'd make solo queue feel a little less frustrating as players don't need to give up a perk slot to get super basic information. Those don't necessarily translate into killers directly getting weaker. A great parallel here would be the DC bots just added- those are undeniably a survivor buff, as players no longer get 1v3s they can't possibly win because someone DCed on first down, but it only does that. That change didn't require killer buffs to compensate, and half a Kindred basekit wouldn't either, imo."
I think that isn't a fair comparison at all. A DC is objectively a downgrade so putting a bot in is just fair. Your example is a buff, however small you want to elude it to. You're nearly equating it to a QoL like the bots, of which it is not. It is just objectively more information.
I still don't understand why you feel this basekit half Kindred would fairly be needed for solo queue. Are solo queues unfairly losing or "having a bad experience" specifically from lack of information? I don't think so. All the frustrations that currently exist in solo queue are skill and matchmaking ones, not balance ones in my opinion.
Btw I appreciate the cordial discourse, it's rare on here.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495320#Comment_3495320
I've had a few matches like that myself, but since whether or not the player in question loses isn't relevant to my argument here, neither are those anecdotes.
There is no amount of good play that will overcome the fact that you just don't know certain critical things in the basekit currently. This was even more the case before the HUD update; there was no amount of good play that would make up for not actually having any way of knowing what your teammates are doing at base, and needing to run perks to remedy that is exactly why it felt bad, not a solution to it feeling bad.
Again, though- if the game is balanced around a good SWF, which seems to be your implication and is something I'd mostly agree with, solo players must necessarily be given some of the information the game is balanced around them knowing. Otherwise their chances of winning actually will go down.
Basekit Kindred and the ability to see your teammate's perks in the lobby + match details mid-game are the last things needed for that, imo.
"but since whether or not the player in question loses isn't relevant to my argument here"
You're saying it's not about winning and it's about not knowing information on your teammates but I'm saying that isn't actually the case. I'm saying the lack of information is being used as a scape goat for playing badly and why it feels bad.
The HUD is currently giving a significant amount of info. More than enough to make good choices. More info shouldn't be needed for a good player. I feel like we're trying to give so many bumper lanes for bad players to make them win games they shouldn't be winning.
"solo players must necessarily be given some of the information the game is balanced around them knowing. Otherwise their chances of winning actually will go down."
I would be okay with this. I'm just referencing as I did in my first post that they are highly unlikely to bring killers to that level necessary if we did give all that info to solos equal to swf.
"Basekit Kindred and the ability to see your teammate's perks in the lobby + match details mid-game are the last things needed for that, imo."
As said before, I just see them doing this and then doing nothing to killer to bring them to swf level. If in a hypothetical world they actually did, then I'd be fine with this.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495303#Comment_3495303
Killer players only struggle against good survivors if you define "good survivors" as players who are capable of making the killer struggle.
If you define "good players" as those who have a general idea of what they're doing and how the game plays, no, killers of comparable skill don't struggle against them. Now, I'll grant that you aren't at all guaranteed to get players of comparable skill to yourself - I've had multiple seven-thousand-hour players in my games recently and I personally only have a fraction of that - but that's not a balance issue, it's a matchmaking issue.
As for your last paragraph there, it's not about winning. It is completely impossible to actually make solo and SWF equal, I agree with that, but solo also feels bad because of actual game design elements outside of your control but inside BHVR's control. They can't force your teammates to make good decisions, but they can address a lack of information that the game must necessarily balanced around you actually having. SWFs exist and can't be removed, so it must be assumed that a good chunk of the knowledge SWF pass to one another is known by all survivors otherwise balancing is impossible.
TL;DR winrate isn't everything and solo needs balance changes that aren't directly related to whether those players actually win their matches.
Never have I played a solo queue match (and like 95% of my games are solo queue) and thought I lost because of balance problems or lack of information. It was either me or my team making bad plays. If either of us are making bad plays, we should lose. I don't see the issue with that.
"but solo also feels bad because of actual game design elements outside of your control but inside BHVR's control"
This feels bad is actually from them playing bad, not a lack of information. This is lack of accountability on their part and making excuses.
I think the game is currently balanced around a solo queue group of like sub 300 hours each.
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I mean at the end of the day this entire play style fails if you know how to loop. She's an m1 killer with no anti-loop. Unless the players are bad they shouldn't be getting chain slugged that easy. Bad players should be punished.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495303#Comment_3495303
Wording is kinda not correct.
SWF doesn't guarantee good players, there is many bad SWF groups.
It simply ignores matchmaking, so you choose who you play with. Doesn't matter they are good or bad, but it's up to you.
I should have been more specific with my words, you're correct. Guarantee was poor wording. Extremely more likely would be better.
Still we're mincing semantics and the point remains. Yes there are some bad swf groups, but in generally they are most often significantly better, exceptions aside. Even the data shows this.
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@Yatol said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3493642#Comment_3493642
Deerstalker itself is fine, its just the best way to use it is not viable.
In 10k hours on this game I can't think of a single time I'd wished I had Deerstalker on. Even in its best case scenario, there are still just tons of better perks by a mile.
Seems way outdated to me. There should be times or builds where I'm like yeah this perk is shining and this scenario made it better than other options. That just hasn't been a thing for yearssss.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495266#Comment_3495266
I feel like a lot of people leave off the "if necessary" part of that sentiment, though.
Have killers needed sweeping basekit buffs as a direct result of the survivor HUD? Not really, killer's not exactly struggling in general and anywhere problems do arise it tends to have more to do with items and perks, or map design. The survivor HUD was just a good addition that didn't really end up making killers weaker.
"Have killers needed sweeping basekit buffs as a direct result of the survivor HUD? Not really"
I kind of disagree with this premise. Do they struggle most games because most survivors play badly? No. Do they struggle against against good players? Yes. Only winning when players play bad regardless of your play even if that isn't the majority of games doesn't tell me they're in a good spot. I care about good vs good matches as that's an actually objective measure of game balance. I understand we're just going to fundamentally disagree here though, that's fine.
"anywhere problems do arise it tends to have more to do with items and perks, or map design"
I mean this has been since the games existed and still does today. This is most matches as well. Like 70% of the maps are very unbalanced for example. Like 90% of my matches have at least 3+ medkits/toolboxes as well, with at least 1 or more BNP/Styptic/syringe in every other game.
"The survivor HUD was just a good addition that didn't really end up making killers weaker."
I think it did some. That said, if you do believe that it didn't, then that means the real issue with solo queue never had anything to do with information, it was simply bad players making excuses. The biggest advantage of swf isn't info, it's guaranteed good players. By that criteria it means bringing solo queue to swf is an impossible feat since it's a skill issue. Which also means at the end of the day all this Kindred change is for is making bad players win more, not to actually get them closer to swf level.
I think the game tries too hard to make people win games that they don't deserve to be winning.
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@Gwinty said:
People seem to ignore that she is still a M1 killer with nearly no chase power.
Even if you are fully condemned she still needs a full chase to get you and everybody who played Trapper can tell you how hard it can be to get a single down on a descent survivor when you have no tricks during a chase.
The people complaining about her slugging and not hooking are ignoring that this playstyle can be done with a bunch of Killers. Nurse/Blight with Infectious Fright are still a thing and can wreck you in the same fashion. Also camping a slugged survivor is very much possible on nearly every Killer unless a survivor brings "We are gonna live forever" or "Buckle Up".
I would still suggest a few adjustments to make a Condemn-only playstyle with slugging not that viable if that settles it for some people. The two add-ons you noted are problematic and maybe even a slightly higher cooldown on her teleport could do.
However I would not like this. People always complain that they only play against Nurse, Blight and Wesker. But as soon as another Killer comes and is a bit powerful they want nerfs. This is problematic because if we nerf every good Killer then of course people who play higher MMR will only encounter Nurse, Blight and Wesker 24/7.
I agree.
Essentially the entire condemn build even with these addons all only works if they're bad a looping (which they should be punished). At the end of the day she's an m1 killer with no anti-loop. So if they're all holding tapes and know how to loop well the condemn build isn't happening.
Essentially this condemn build only works on and punishes people playing badly, which is good design.
There's plenty of counter play available.
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I mean last time we pushed for the HUD under the assumption that by bringing solos closer to swf we would then buff killers closer to swf and that basically never happened, so I'm a little hesitant to support this based on the track record.
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@Gwinty said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495169#Comment_3495169
She is still a M1 killer with a funny ability that sometimes may or may not confuse a survivor into getting a hit.
The only issue I understand about the condemn mechanic is this:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495097#Comment_3495097
Survivors should have a way to cleanse themself of the condemn to not get moried. However Sadako teleporting as well as greedy teammates can block this and you are doomed. That is not a good feeling and I get it.
As such the solution would maybe be something like: Once you get the tape there is one TV where you can always insert it not matter its state. Other TVs are an option but if they are turned off you will not be able to insert the tape but that one TV is for you.
We could do this, but how would you buff her to compensate? As this change essentially deletes the mori feature and just adds a tiny bit of slow in the kit.
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The condemn pressure is literally all she has. If people want to start nerfing that she’s gonna need massive buffs in other areas. She’s literally trash in every category that makes a good killer good. Most my experience playing as and against her have been people not playing against her correctly and trying to play like it was old Sadako which does not work.
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Iri tape is the only thing making her remotely decent. If anything it should be base kit. Being able to place in any tv right next to you defeats the entire mechanic.
Comb is fine, it’s not even her best addon for the Condemn build with Iri tape.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3494778#Comment_3494778
I'm actually happy where her traps are.
the problem is that i think a lot of player dislike how pig-trap mori you. many player will often state that being mori's by a trap feels cheap. kinda how you got bad luck on reverse bear trap requiring 4 searches and other cheese strategies such as moon-walking survivors with a trap.
I just question whether that is fun for the survivor and how that could be improved. At the same time, some pig player have always stated that pig lacks control over the mori and it just feels like a super-powerful passive. the only way you can activately use pig's power at base-kit is for tunneling. For example, you reverse bear trap a survivor, they get hooked, you take another chase. as you chase, the survivor goes to pig boxes to remove their reverse trap then you show up in crouch form stealth and down them. it is like indirect form of tunneling similar to pyramid head's cage mechanic which is very very direct form of tunnelimg.
Pigs main issues are her crouch and ambush being pretty trash.
I think reason why her crouch and ambush is trash is because her reverse bear traps are powerful tunneling tools. that is why she moves slow in crouch because the ability to chain-hook a survivor without a chase is kinda like indirect mori's. that last sentence is good summary of the pig. a killer with indirect mori's. her chase is also weak because when pig gets reverse bear trap on you, you are playing at massive disadvantage. stronger anti-loop means that pig can confirm her reverse bear traps while a weak chase means that a skilled survivor can loop her for 5 gens, therefore deny her ability to use reverse bear traps.
the bad ambush also mitigates her perk variety so you do not just stack 4 gen slowdowns on top 4 reverse bear traps. it incentives you to use chase perks.
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That said, they have her in such a sorry state to where she's utter trash in every other aspect that makes a good killer good. So it's basically like the only thing she has going for her. If they were to tone it down she would need significant changes in other areas again to compensate.
I think that is just part of the balance. when you have more stable foundation for a killer, you can do something called power-shifting. power-shifting is when you weaken 1 aspect of a character in video game but you re-balance another aspect of the character such that character is more rounded. now you have to question? is it good for a character to be well-rounded. Sometimes a character that is less well-rounded is perceived more fair when it is less rounded. so not all character benefit from being well-rounded. sometime being less rounded is good. of course this is completely subjective opinion. Just think about like league of legend glass-cannon assassins vs the bruiser with well-rounded stats. one person might say that 1 shotting is imbalanced and the well-rounded character is better while one may argue that being well-rounded means you have no weaknesses therefore your too good at everything.
I actually tend to see most people play Pig wrong which is where I believe feeling like the traps are just passive power/kills comes from. I actually think Pig has a higher skill cap than most people do since I feel she has a strong macro gameplay when done correctly. Essentially you’re trying to chase while juggling gens and pressuring them off boxes to buy yourself head pop time. This is why I stack addons to increase search time. Not only do the boxes take longer which is more time but it gives me more time to interrupt and reset the entire search.
I don’t typically run info perks on her so it’s a lot of game knowledge and understanding where each survivor is probably at or heading and reading their thought process.
I actually end up getting a significant amount of head pops this way and a lot of hooks from survivors that start panicking on the trap timer and make bad plays. Lots of players also don’t expect the addons and pressure when estimating how much time they need when freezing gens first before traps, catches them off guard.
Pigs real power is the traps forcing temporary early 1v3s and 1v2s by temporary getting people off the gens and giving you time to pressure and chase.
I do however think Sadakos condemn seems a little better than it actually will be atm because people are used to just pumping gens and ignoring her tapes. IE they are respecting the condemn and it can quickly spiral. As long as they actively focus on keep their condemn down from the start it’s usually not an issue, most just don’t. Survivors don’t like having to adapt and change. I’ve personally had no issues with it on survivor in solo queue.
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Jeez it’s some of the few hex perks worth running out of the like 90% of them that are trash, just leave them alone. It gives secondary objectives, costs 2 perk slots, easily countered and has multiple downsides. They’re fine.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3494762#Comment_3494762
indeed. you know, this rework makes me feel like pig boxes should play closer to sadako. i wonder how this could be achieved for pig. I guess we would need to think outside box for pig to feel this good. maybe pig could play like mori-based doctor with skill-checks. Just something that flew past my mind.
I've changed my mind on the Sadako changes some since my last posts about it. I actually do think her Condemn is significantly better now and takes more skill. That said, they have her in such a sorry state to where she's utter trash in every other aspect that makes a good killer good. So it's basically like the only thing she has going for her. If they were to tone it down she would need significant changes in other areas again to compensate.
As far as Pig is concerned she is just too simple to add much complexity without doing lots of fundamental changes to her entirely. Of which I don't think they'd do. Pigs actually my highest win rate killer too ironically for how bad she is. I typically play average-bad killers though, not much of the top tiers. Pigs main issues are her crouch and ambush being pretty trash. I'm actually happy where her traps are.
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As far as the condemned is concerned it actually feels more skillful to me.
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Most of us are hoping for buffs actually.
If people play badly it will make her look better than she is.