Archol123
Archol123
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
Also I will add that he is super map dependant thanks to how his cameras are super sensitive to any line of sight blockers and the fact you need the have line of sight to teleport on Survivors. If you get Lerrys or any indoor map you felt like you will have bad time allready.
The reworked red Forrest maps are a nightmare for him every 2 m is some dumb Los blocker how did they rework those maps and managed to make them worse??
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I mean sure, but slugging people until they bleed out is not really a nurse problem :/ I usually just tab out and do sth else in the meantime, so it doesn't really bother me, he is sitting there watching me and I'm watching some YouTube video or something, I think I have more fun than that guy so that's fine by me.
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@Zeon_99 said:
Clown got nerfed like crazy after his "rework". Losing his exhaustion bottles was the nail in the coffin for him.
He is a lot better than back then, before his rework he got slowed down by bottle throws, now he can even outplay some of the stronger pallets on the game.
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@WaveyTrey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3522945#Comment_3522945
I was like “good riddance”. People out here really thinking The Clown is a good killer in the “right hands”. Anything The Clown can do another killer will outperform him in every way. Especially in the right hands. 💀
If both types of bottles are used correctly you can actually even outplay really safe loops, but besides that he has no map pressure or side objectives. He is nowhere near trapper but surely in the bottom 1/3 of killers.
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3522317#Comment_3522317
I disagree, learning that distance isn't that hard and it's almost not even unique to wraith anymore since you can attach coup de grace to any killer and get a similar effect not to mention Spirit exists and has a lunge but is also better while also being more difficult and besides lunge and bodyblocking wraith doesn't do anything.
I also disagree SM doesn't have anything to learn because unless you know your fundamentals of m1 chase you're not getting downs as SM, of course this is not unique to SM but I'd argue it does make SM a very good choice for people just starting DBD because you get free tracking to get into chases and a killer where you have to learn basic chase fundamentals which will carry onto any other killer that person plays after and I think having beginner accessible killers like SM is good for DBD overall.
Yes SM has abusable aspects that need to be addressed but as long as her ability to stall the game is removed I think there's nothing wrong with a killer that's easy to play.
Wraith is still a better option for newer players I think, first of all he is free and accesable for everyone and then again if you don't do the bodyblocking or using the increased lunge then you have a standard m1 killer.
He has a higher movementspeed during his post uncloak lunge attack so it is not that comparable to coup de grace but can be used around smaller loops to get a hit and is actually quite fun to do. And it is definitely more than what any other m1 killer can do.
Ok you can learn m1 killer gameplay on Skull Merchant, however I obviously meant killer specifics. And there is basically nothing to learn in that regard put down drone, hold 3gen the end... Or when doing the looping for some reason put down drone at loop chase around a bit/keep survivor at loop get exposed/free hit or survivor somehow reaches next tile, repeat. There is just nothing I would consider skillfull.
Sure there is nothing wrong with (mechanically) easy killers like Trapper, Legion and so on. But I always think that a good killer design is one that offers a low skill floor where you can easily pick up the killer but he has some depth and things to learn. For example trapper has many small things you can learn and even legion has some for example the legion tech where you get blinded at a pallet vault and then hit as a normal m1 to get a down, it is not much but it is something, and it just feels like skull merchant hast nothing in that regard.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3522356#Comment_3522356
I mean, the thread is about that whether you agree with it or not.
You also weren't talking about that disagreement, you just bluntly said that Skull Merchant has nothing to learn and ignored her other playstyles, both her current ones and her potential ones.
Her current ones are neglectable because they are inferior to the 3 gen thing and barely played and potential is such an open term like... Sure if they rework her and give her other things to do she can play differently but this is just so blurred, like what is the assumption of her changed power? There is nothing we can talk about when it comes to potential playstyles because we dont have any idea what it would be.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3522349#Comment_3522349
Saying that Skull Merchant has "nothing to learn" and has no skilful gameplay in a thread about her overall design kind of implies that you're also talking about her overall design, to be fair. Why bother focusing on her current issues when this isn't actually a thread about that?
Her other styles of playing are much more relevant to this thread.
Only if I agree with your point and I didn't. I don't think her current design is redeemable. And she is in need of a rework.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3522340#Comment_3522340
I'm sorry, you've lost me. The whole thread is about how she doesn't need to be fully redesigned but does need changes in general, so I'm definitely not saying that most Skull Merchant players are going for her proper playstyles?
I don't think literally anyone in this thread denies that her most popular strategy is 3-genning, honestly. I think you're arguing against a position that isn't actually being held by anyone here.
You said I would ignore other styles played on her, but basically nobody plays her differently so why focus on those styles? That's my whole point.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3522317#Comment_3522317
There are two issues with this comment.
The first is that it's not true, it's hyperfocusing on just using her to 3-gen and actively ignoring any other way of using her power.
The second is that it's by no means a hard requirement of the kind of power she has. Because she can already do things that aren't 3-gen strats (albeit not very well), it's not hard to see how her power could be changed without completely redesigning it to improve on that concept.
Which is what 99% of Skull Merchant Players do because it seems to be the most effective strategy... Basically no one uses her differently, so why would we focus on playstyles that are neither effective nor played often?
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3522226#Comment_3522226
This is highly subjective though and why is a high skill ceiling a prerequisite to a killer being valid?
Should Wraith be deleted because his skill ceiling is very low and once you figure out how to body block with him you've basically mastered them?
Wraith is a bad example just a few days ago I heard Laser I think it was say that Wraith has a rather high skill ceiling, since you can use the movementspeed bonus to have an increased lunge attack for exampel and many other things.
It is not that a killer has to have a high skill ceiling but a killer should have some things to learn, current skull merchant has nothing drop drone at gen put around 3 gen kick gens resett drones repeat, that's it... a monkey can do that. The issue is not that it is easy, it is that it requires no learning at at all.
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As for the basekit perks thing it is not about the perks but about the issue that lies beneath, why did they add basekit bt? Because if you don't run BT then you basically farm someone off of hook and having only 3 perkslots left limits your possibilities in perk builds by quite a lot so instead of this killer vs survivor mentality how about we think about the problems the game has and how we could fi x them?
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3522213#Comment_3522213
Uhm... 6.1.0 was about 1 year ago.
But people were so much worse back then than they are now. Sure. Because after 6 years people still didn't know how to play the game.
I've only played this game since shortly after the Twins' release. There weren't any more infinites back then than there are now (although I am still glad that some loops from back then no longer exist). Arguably less considering that you can lose chase with a killer on GoJ's main building.
I thought you meant far back when there were barely any usefull perks so everyone ran BT like reeeeeally far back in the beginning of the game 5-6 years ago and so on?
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@totallynotamegmain said:
your points are valid, skull merchant is only really hated because people keep holding the game hostage with her. And ya know, her mori sucks and tbh her design is mid.
Basically her gameplay is not interesting as there is not really a way to apply skill with her, her visual design is boring, her Mori is basically Freddys but worse. Her backstory is uninteresting and she is one of the most annoying killers to go against in the game. In summon she basically just sucks and does not have any redeeming qualities...
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@Rogue11 said:
This won't fix the gap because the greatest advantage of swf has always been avoiding the terrible matchmaking system by ensuring you have 3 good players on your team.
You are lucky if all the friends you play with are good at the game ^^ I always had at least 1-2 really terrible players in my 4 mans :D
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3522205#Comment_3522205
When you typed this up, did you think it would add something constructive to the conversation, or?
Still funnier and more entertaining than any match against skull merchant ever played.
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@Xernoton said:
2 base kit perks? Sounds great. Let's add Bond for good measure. And Windows of Opportunity. The killer's aura should also be revealed to all survivors as long as one of them has a direct line of sight on the killer.
SWF has this information anyway, so it wouldn't be that much of a deal, right? Wrong. Because killers aren't balanced around that kind of coordination and information and they never will be.
With every perk you add to the base kit of either side you allow them to run around with more game breaking builds. I remember when survivors had 3 perks and BT and somehow it still worked out. Now we shift goal post from 1 perk not being absolutely mandatory to survivors having all the information in the world at any given time. Base kit Kindred would only be 1 more step towards that.
"it still worked out" yeah because people were absolute trash at the game back then, the game had literal infinites, fast vaults out of 0 momentum and many more different dumb things, if any semi decent player of today played on the old version of the game no killer besides Nurse would ever win a game, the game changed, people got better at it and balancing has to also change according to this.
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I mean you could say it benefits SWF that don't play with 4 men already but I guess that would be fine. The problem overall is most likely that giving survivors increased efficiency makes it even rougher on killer and probably result in a lot of re-balancing to do, but besides that point I agree that it is not a bad idea.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3521891#Comment_3521891
Just for some numbers:
25% chance to unhook would be the equivalent of a ~58% that a survivor unhook themselves in the 3 attempts base.
Slippery Meat becomes 29% chance with 6 attempts for ~87% chance to unhook. With Up the Ante it becomes 94%.
If this change went through, Slippery Meat would be unironically meta and killers would be forced to camp hooks when the survivor is in 1st state, because the risk they can just unhook themselves is too high.
And if we now add luck offerings you basically don't need to go for unhooks in first stage and can just continue to slam gens, that idea is just terrible overall. Deliverance or Slippery Meat already give you enough stuff to possibly unhook yourself.
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@Z0mbiv0r said:
I always have fun when playing killer in indoors maps precisely because of those reasons, it feels like anything can happen, but of course I understand that diverse MMR's might go differently.
I'm sad we don't have more indoors maps and I wish there could be a way to solve those issues, but well... It is what it is. Thanks for your insight, @Archol123 , it really has been interesting to read you. Let's see if in the future they can bring more variety to outdoors maps while still allowing for being able to track survivors by crows flying away and scratchmarks.
I'm the opposite, I basically never had a fun game on an indoor map, but I guess it is fine if other people enjoy it. Glad I could help ^^
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@Blueberry said:
I prefer indoor maps on both sides and think they are overall more balanced. The indoor maps actually play different than the outdoor maps which are most of the time the same loops with a different skin on them. Most the outdoor maps just play the same. The indoor maps also tend to not have as much busted loops as the outdoor ones. Finally indoor maps actually make some of the weaker killers better which is a good thing. Outdoor maps tend to let you see the killer coming form a mile away encouraging hold w game play which no one likes.
Let me go into more detail.
We have a total 4-5 indoor maps, depending on if we count RPD as one or two maps: Lerys, The Game, Midwich, RPD 1 and RPD 2.
They all have the general indoor map problems + map specific ones.
Out of all indoor maps 1/5 (the game) and arguably, but not so much anymore (RPD 1+ RPD 2) have completely busted loops 15+ safe pallets on the game and a lot of really strong loops on RPD. And you're telling the outdoor maps have more busted loops when we look at it percentage based?
Midwich is hold w simulator at its best big maps are a problem yes, because basic m1 killer only makes 60cm/s when closing the gap to a survivor it is really important to be able to cut the survivor off, which the midwich corridors make impossible, you see a survivor on the other end of the corridor? good luck dude you gonna spend minutes to catch up to them, the game will end before you get the down if they do it properly.
I also disagree that they make weaker killers better, the problem is since they are all rather winding killers with above average map traversal or teleports are favored where as especially on maps with multiple floors m1 killers just take ages to go to places, take midwich for example you can take like 30-40 seconds just to reach the generator right below or above you when you hear the survivors working on it and then they might already have ran off into oblivion.
As for holding w in outdoor maps, if the map size gets corrected then this won't be much of a problem anymore also there is oftentimes enough line of sight blockers to approach them without getting spotted from 40 m away, unless you're on blood lodge I guess but that's 1/28 or so, so I guess it's fine, but I agree that outdoor maps should have some line of sight blockers, not like Singularity s map or the reworked red forrest, bc that is just too much but some more are alright.
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@Blueberry said:
I prefer indoor maps on both sides and think they are overall more balanced. The indoor maps actually play different than the outdoor maps which are most of the time the same loops with a different skin on them. Most the outdoor maps just play the same. The indoor maps also tend to not have as much busted loops as the outdoor ones. Finally indoor maps actually make some of the weaker killers better which is a good thing. Outdoor maps tend to let you see the killer coming form a mile away encouraging hold w game play which no one likes.
Less busted loops?? - let me introduce to you the game
Hold w gameplay - have you seen the midwich corridors??
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@Z0mbiv0r said:
So you think there is actually no way indoors maps could be fun to play in anyway? I mean, I understand your reasoning, but pallets just need tweaking, crows can be replaced by rats (not sure if that's possible and they wouldn't work exactly the same because you wouldn't see them flying in the distance but you could actually see them scattering away or could work with spies from the shadows), loss of tracking scratchmarks in the distance is unevitable, but if the map is well thought and designed, it wouldn't really affect the game that much in every circumstance (when in narrow or enclosed spaces, yeah, but there would be other instances in which you are not), narrow espaces could be given windows (only they would have to give them a different appearance than just plain windows) to jump from or simply adjust the space so it is not so narrow that you cannot move one inch for 10 meters...
What I try to imply is that, yeah, I think all your reasoning is perfectly valid and spot-on, but I think it's not something that is impossible to work around. Breaking LoS is an important part of the gameplay too, so I think that's when variety comes in play, and it would also encourage usage of different strategies and builds for both killers and survivors.
But I do understand now that it would be maybe a massive amount of work with a high risky of being criticized so not worth the effort.
PD: I just feel that most outdoors maps are just skins and that indoors ones are which bring variety and hence why I feel them as something fresh, but obviously that's just one opinion, and I'm not precisely good at the game.
The rats idea is not that bad actually but the problem is visibility because you would need to be able to see them at some distance to allow them to be viable, and far enough so you don't trigger them yourself and by design of most indoor maps you cannot see too far any direction. If you design a huge Hangar ofc you don't have that issue but then you don't really have an indoor map anymore either, you just slapped a roof on an outdoor map.
It is just that you have basically no I dictation at all where the survivors are moving to in the distance on indoor maps whereas you can know on an outdoor maps if you look out for signs, it rewards skill and that doesn't happen indoors... Which is sad.
I don't agree on the skins argument because the tiles on the maps and their main buildings are fairly diverse, ofc I would not mind more different types of tiles to be added so long as they are not the type of useless windows pallet gym they first added when talking about new tiles, they should be somewhat balanced and be neither free hit nor free escape.
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@Z0mbiv0r said:
So after reading through all of it, I feel like most of the complaints come from pallet spawning, which imo should be easily solved by the devs tweaking those maps, which I think they did state they were going to do (not specifically indoors maps but maps in general).
I still think indoors maps are more unique and fun than outdoors ones, and I would really love to see them explore more risky designs. I have a few designs of my own which I think could be actually functional and fun, including
·An abandoned building with several apartments, a lab area, some narrow and dim lighted corridors and an outdoors garden like area in a corner, from a chapter which included The MadMan, a sort of Dr Jekyl / Mr Hyde killer.
·A small shanty town area with several indoors locations in the shape of abandoned shops and small apartments, connected by narrow alleys and some wider areas like a plaza with a fountain, from a chapter which included The Enforcer, a crooked ex-police officer who used to take part in police brutality.
·A cathedral in ruins, with an inner cloister, the main chapel with two floors (a bit like the main hall from RPD) and a crypt, from a chapter which included The Possessed, a young boy who could bring out the demon possessing him to attack survivors.
·A castle, again, in ruins, with a courtyard, the court room, a stable, the dungeon and a demolished tower, from a chapter which included the Vampire.
And then you could have, as I said, things like a Shipyard, a Museum, you write it. I don't know, I just think this game is lacking variety in maps. And I do think it could be extremely fun to explore diverse ways of bringing some indoors map which wouldn't just be mazes with all narrow corridors and small, cluttered rooms.
You could have the Nostromo, for instance. How cool would it have been to have an actual, dark spaceship?
From an visual standpoint sure would be great, but I don't think the gameplay would be good. Narrow paths don't go well with many killer powers in the sense that you cannot avoid a hit against a huntress when you cannot dodge. Tracking is hard in indoor maps, it is much harder to cut survivors off and if it doesn't work they get massive distance which often makes it not even worth to try.
I can understand that you want visually appealing maps but that doesn't really give me much after playing like 10 times on it, it could be a completely white map with only boxes and walls for loops and if it plays good I would prefer it over the Mona Lisa of visually appealing maps. It is all about the gameplay and just because RPD looks good does not mean that it is not a terrible map from a gameplay standpoint.
Also the most relevant complain is not the pallet spawning (maybe except for the game, but this map is an atrocity of itself) but the lack of long range tracking, crows, scratch marks in the distance, being able to see survovors from afar and trying to cut them off, that is just something that is basically impossible on indoor maps which makes them very frustrating to play on in general. Also many killer powers rely on line of sight which is also easily broken on those maps. They just create so many issues from a gameplay point of view and all I hear in favor of it is how cool it look visually... Man that's just not worth it... The great looks wear of fast and then you have gameplay like old cowshed and the game. The priority should be gameplay above looks.
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@HarlockTaliesin said:
I'd very much like indoor maps, but so far none are conducive to both survivors and killers. Their designs suffer in one aspect or another.
Midwich: A hook desert for killers and can be difficult to locate gens/totems for survivors. Otherwise a big square. Easy mode for Nurse and Doctor.
The Game: For most killers, pallet, pallet, pallet, pallet, window, pallet, pallet, pallet, pallet, fall through floor, pallet, pallet, pallet, etc. For survivor, you can get trapped in certain areas if the breakable doors are up and it can be easy to get three-genned depending on RNG and which pallets get broken. Easy mode for Nurse, only a little more difficult for Doctor.
RPD: Just awful and widely disliked by both survivors and most killers. Lots of small rooms/hallways broken up by sharp angles and pallets/drops. Two gens spawn in the lobby. Plus since it got split this PoS is now twice as likely to show up. Mostly easy mode for Nurse and Dredge, a bit more difficult for Doctor.
This isn't to say that the outdoor maps are all that inspiring, just that the indoor maps are so much worse.
I really wish they'd try outsourcing their map building, or have guest map makers like they have guest cosmetics designers.
I would disagree about RPD being easy mode for Nurse ^^ Your Blinks get swallowed so often, this map is really terrible as Nurse, arguable her worst, even worse than Lerys and Nobody wants to play Nurse on this :D
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There are quite a lot of them to be honest, prior to rework Cowshed would have probably gotten rank 1 now I'm not sure anymore. Probably garden of Joy or Borgo, The Game gets a special mention for being the most boring map with just 20+ safe pallets. Bedham are all rather survivor sided as well but I wouldn't place them on the same level as borgo. Big maps in general are problematic but I honestly think Disturbed ward is somewhat fine, yes it is a big map but besides that only the main building is rough, if you can abandon chase when they reach it somehow it is manageable, but it is rather easy to reach from everywhere, it kind of the creates the saloon issue where you almost loose the game if you decide to chase in the main building, but everyone will do nothing but run there so you basically hold a 3 gen in the outskirts because there is not much you can do otherwise.
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Or give her more equipment that she can pick up on the map, maybe even similar to oni that she has to unlock that by gaining injured or hook states or something there are just so many options instead of just making her what she is currently.
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@Caiman said:
I would lean her into a stealth killer. Greatly increase the range of her drones so she can use the Undetectable buff more. Greatly reduce the Lock-On so that survivors can safely ignore the drones for longer (but not forever).
Probably still wouldn't be a good killer but it'd be better than what we got now.
Could work out, maybe just delete the drones give her a motion tracker that allows her to monitor survivors while the are doing an action or running and give it really big range. Or give her surveillance cameras that do nothing else but monitor things so she only has information but nothing more, you could either make them there from the start or being able to freely place them.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3521685#Comment_3521685
Oh, see being in a comp mindset isn't how dbd should be played. I hate that dbd has become like that.
What has it to do with a comp setting when two pallets just happen to be there back to back??
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3521683#Comment_3521683
Chase someone else. Some people are just really good loopers. Gotta apply pressure to other targets.
Dude, the game has 25 or so pallets 15-20 being safe, it does not matter who you chase, they are all able to drop pallets, this map is just terrible, you can be the best looper in the game a god pallet cannot be mindgamed try mindgaming shack pallet as an M1 killer and look how long you take to get the hit and now take that times 10 for the game, what do you expect people to do there? You don't need to be good to play on the game, this map basically makes it impossible to apply your skill because there is no skillfull way to drop a safepallet...
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3521680#Comment_3521680
A good pig is scary though but yeah she needs some new fun stuff to her kit for sure.
I wouldn't call Pig scary, her Dash is kind of outdated and barely works because people just run away as soon as you crouch and for some god awfull reason her reverse bear traps are what makes special now and not the chase power, which I find really sad.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3521679#Comment_3521679
Tons of pallet specific perks you could run
Enduring Spirit fury get's countered by pre dropping, Brutal Strengh is not enough because you basically have pallets back to back, there is even a rather old clip of Hens where the killer gets spirit fury, but the pallets in the game spawn so dense that he just has two pallets back to back and can drop another one before he gets hit, stuff like that should never happen.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3521676#Comment_3521676
Good thing killers have powers and perks and add ons to deal with that. Game can't always be on easy mode for killer. No fun in that. The chase is the most fun part about dbd.
The point of it being called a god pallet is that you basically have to kick it when it is dropped because you are not able to play around it unless the survivor has no clue what they are doing. Sure some killers can maybe down you before you reach that pallet, if they have stealth or hit you over it with their power, but what do you when you are chasing someone and they are only holding w and then dropping the pallet and then doing that another 15 times until the game is basically over.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3521676#Comment_3521676
Good thing killers have powers and perks and add ons to deal with that. Game can't always be on easy mode for killer. No fun in that. The chase is the most fun part about dbd.
Now image an M1 killer like pig, there is no fun in such a chase.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3521671#Comment_3521671
Every map has a god pallet maybe break it... You really getting looped for 10 minutes?
Also Midwich has at least 2 god pallets (I don't know if you can count the two in the courtyard, but I think they are rather strong. The game has around 15-20 god pallets, Lerys has I think also 2+ and RPD has at least 5-6 god pallets (long table room, main hall, some others that are harder to describe).
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3521671#Comment_3521671
Every map has a god pallet maybe break it... You really getting looped for 10 minutes?
It is not about the safe pallet my man, it is that you can see the killer, possibly even stay out of chase and have him chase you for 60 cm/s gain around a 40m long path that ends in a god pallet he eventually has to kick...
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I mean sure they are probably great from a visual standpoint, but that is something I really don't care about, I want good gameplay and not something that looks good but plays awfull.
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@Z0mbiv0r said:
I've done a quick search on the forums by 'indoor' and it seems that community basically hates them? I was wondering because right now we have plenty of outdoors map and variations but tbh I have a blast playing Lery and RPD (the Game is pretty annoying every single time I play it) so I just wish we would have more variation and more indoor maps, even mixed would be fine, but most outdoor maps have only a tiny percentage of them being indoors.
There are tons of options on how indoor maps could be designed, and I just can't help feeling since the last ptb that using the Nostromo as a complete indoors map was a missed opportunity. And that got me thinking 'well, yeah, actually we don't have that many'. RPD's two variants, Lery and The Game (excluding Hawkins since it's no longer available).
So, again... What is the general consensus on this kind of maps?
You missed Midwich.
The problem with indoor maps is that they don't really work well with the gameplay. You cannot really use crows or scratchmarks to track survivors, some indoor maps have the haddonfield fence syndrom where you know exactly where the survivor is but you have to go around and waste so much time that they are basically at the other end of the map.
I hate every single one of them because they are all terrible. For killer and for survivor, and I don't think not liking them has anything to do with being killer or survivor sided, they just limit gameplay in some very annoying aspects.
The Game - 20 safepallets basically pallet kick simulator and most of them are so safe and have good visibility that you cannot mind game them as an m1 killer, fairly good visibility in the upper floor, but rather bad downstairs.
Midwich - hold W simulator if you see the killer on the other end of the corridor, the loops itself are mostly alright but it has the same issues as every other indoor map that you cannot really track survivors with crows and far away scratchmarks, also sometimes getting up or down just takes way too long because of the limited stairs and drops, so you can be right below a gen that is being worked on but you need to walk for another 30 seconds to get there.
Lerys - haddonfield fence problem when there is a room with limited openings and it can spawn some ridiculous window alignments that makes it really rough to chase, same as all maps with rough time spotting scrath marks in the distance and tracking via crows.
RPD - has some really annoying safe pallets and once again the haddonfield fence issue that oftentimes gives survivors so much of a headstart.
As survivor those maps often seem to be confusing in finding generators or which tiles have already been used and as killer they are really annoying from a tracking standpoint and getting to places since you often need to walk a rather massive way to get to a point.
When I play survivor on the game I just never feel like I outplayed the killer when I last long in chase because I don't really have to think about a clever way to loop them or where my ressources are because there is just so many of them and they are all safe. It is just so boring. With Lerys it is often weird as to which door is open in specific rooms and if got lucky so I can reach the tile in time before getting hit.
Just in general as killer as well as Survivor Indoor maps are terrible, you oftentimes just don't see farther than you can throw which makes it really annoying guess when the killer is actually coming or how far the survivors will get and how many possibilities they have to hide.
Sure those maps are great for stealth killers but that again enables some boring gameplay where you basically no visualy or audio until you get hit or grabbed (which basically never happens bc of whatever anymore?), so the chase ends before it begins.
I'm really glad they didn't make more indoor maps, because none of them are fun to play on for me, neither as killer nor survivor.
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@PriestessPoppy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3521502#Comment_3521502
Then just fix the fact that they have different distances?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3521526#Comment_3521526
High ping is the best perk in the game, literally
Yeah obviously but since the current version is worse off from the targeted goal they probably just removed it again and are trying at a different time to reach that goal, I don't know what to tell you man, I'm just guessing.
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Reading is probably waaaaaaay faster, unless you consider giving up on first hook "Playing the match".
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@jesterkind said:
No, this isn't a troll post.
It's no secret that Skull Merchant is a pretty disliked character overall, but the specific flavours of comments that you see about her around here tend to vary in severity and accuracy. For some, she has a clear flaw in her 3-gen strategy being overwhelmingly awful for the game and other than that she's just too weak to do anything else; I don't have an issue with this take. The take that I'd want to discuss here is the idea that her core design is fundamentally broken and can never work in DBD, necessitating a full-on ground-up rework at the level of what Freddy got all those years back, or possibly even more extreme. This take is just wrong, and I'm going to explain why I think that.
Now, before I begin, I want to make clear that I won't be going into much detail on how to actually fix Skull Merchant and capitalise on her potential (though I did make a post about that in the feedback section a little while ago). What I'm doing is pointing out what her potential is, and how her core design is one of the best we've received in a long time.
The first thing I think needs to be touched on is the distinction between core design, which is what we are discussing, and live balance, which we are not. The actual specifics of how a power is implemented, from specific numbers to the more granular effects that it has, aren't the same as the necessary core elements that make up the power's identity; to use a simple example, the necessary core identity of the Trapper's power is that he places down bear traps, but the live balance specifics would be how many spawn, how many he can carry, what exactly happens when a survivor steps in one besides immobilisation, and so forth.
Obviously, the Skull Merchant has a more complicated core design than the Trapper, because pretty much every killer that released after him does, but we can still apply that general distinction. If you can tweak it with number changes or very light adjustments, it's probably not the core design.
With all that setup done, what is the Skull Merchant's core design? Personally, I would break it down into two key concepts:
- Placing down AOE drones in key areas to capitalise on their effects, and;
- Those effects being versatile and almost modular in how much they change depending on what addons and perks are brought.
If we look at that, rather than the numbers and specifics of what her drones do on live, it's easy to see why this core design would work. It's a strategic and versatile idea, one that asks the player to create a gameplan before the match starts and craft their loadout accordingly. Even with some of the specifics we have, it's easy to see how she'd end up working; hypothetically, if numbers and specific addons were different, you'd get to build her for chase via setting up trap drones you steer survivors into, for chase via baiting survivors into hacking drones and then capitalising on the claw traps, for information via the drones being set up in pathways between generators or in spots that are difficult to reach, and for stealth via setting the drones up in those same pathways but using them yourself to get the drop on survivors.
Can she do all those things effectively on live servers right now? No, but that isn't what we're talking about. We're talking about whether the core of her design is something that could work, and it absolutely is.
When I look at the Skull Merchant's core design, I see the killer with the single most potential for genuinely varied builds in the entire game, and I see one of the most strategic killers we've ever had too. What I also see is echoes of the Artist; a killer with an insane skill ceiling and an incredibly well designed power, with a poor reputation because there's an almost braindead simple way of playing her that gets enough results for most players to never bother learning how to play her properly. The same is true of the Knight, albeit to a less extreme degree.
To repeat, I'm not going into detail on how to fix her issues and bring about this potential, that's a post I've already made and that'd be more suited to the feedback and suggestions category anyways. The scope of my little mini-essay here is just about the potential this killer design has, and how it's being overlooked as a knee-jerk reaction to how bad her 3-gen nonsense is.
It would be a shame, in my opinion, for BHVR to over-correct on the current issues and redesign away all of the massive potential this killer has, and I think the rest of the community could do with being shown what's possible considering how few people are interested in treating the Skull Merchant seriously as a killer. I hope to shed some light on that myself, here and elsewhere.
When going over what you consider her core elements I would like to say that if the drones are versatile then you basically re-create Knight again because in some sense the guards work similar to the drones, you put them down and they do something, they are even versatile in what they are good at. The problem is you would need to create drones that work in different ways, with strenghts and weakenesses but 1. without recreating the guards 2. without giving them a really good way to 3 gen and 3. create them in a way that allows the player to apply skill.
As for the 3. point you would need to allow the player to decide which drone he wants to use, which is already a mistake they made with the knight since the player does not have the option there
For the 2. point I think this will be really hard, because basically all area controll killers have a rather good way to 3 gen, this goes for trapper and hag the same way it does for Skull Merchant, and as soon as this strategy is a viable option most people will only play that part which makes it problematic in itself.
And for the 1. point I'm not really sure what different options to give the drones, because depending on the addons she already gets stealth, insta down, bonus movement speed and so on and so forth I can only think of so many things the drones could do...
I see what you tried to do, but as soon as you have a killer that puts stuff down that stays for a longer duration and gives some form of information or way to injure/down, shutdown loops then you create an area controll killer (fairly obviously I know). And they all suffer the same issues, good 3 gen potential, this is a problem in itself and the issue that her core concept is flawed, it may not the completely for the bin and all, but it already has this big problem that somehow needs to be adressed, and it would probably be way easier to give her a rework instead of smaller changes.
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I think because A. male and female vaults gave different distances for some reason and B. It was more than a bugfix and more of a balancing thing since it changed a whole lot about at what tiles you can or can not get a hit by doing a specific thing, I would think they will come back to it and try to changed it how they wanted to be in the first place.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3521466#Comment_3521466
It's a moot point If you agree it should be up to the player to choose if they have it on or not. BTW the censored words can still be viewed by admins.
Good to know, but then you basically have to report everything that was censored... And I don't think that is appropriate either, because then again you cannot properly decide if you want to mute that specific person, given such an option to exist in the first place, which is kind of the bare minimum for a game...
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Also I was always thinking about trash talk and not racist insults, I mean there is some degree of insults that you need to endure, cannot really give examples since this would probably get censored but ofc not the really hard ones. That was basically what I meant with the "Gaming communities are a bit rougher and you would need to endure some things".
On that note there are some decisions from courts in my country where they say the same about football fans and them insulting each other :D
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3521429#Comment_3521429
"Generally speaking yes (context does matter) but you cannot really tell me that insulting a person is ever the correct response ^^"
Yes, sometime a snarky response is required. Especially if someone is arguing in bad faith. In your case. I should have looked at your post history before assuming where you were coming from. Now I've had a bit of interaction with you I don't think that is your intention.
"the majority of the population does not care about such trash talks, not the racist insults and stuff here, simply the trash talk."
Are you reading what I write or just automatically replying? I clearly stated a few times I am talking about slurs and the likes and not addressing off-hand trash talk.
There seems to be a bit of disconnect here and I think I'll nip this in the bud and end it here.
My stance is that yes, I'm all for an option to turn the filter on/off. No, I don't agree that people should be subject to sexist, homophobic, transphobic, racist and ableist slurs and it shouldn't be on them to "put up and shut up" or get of the internet and will push back on anyone trying to make this claim. Once again, I'm not talking about trash talk or petty remarks.
Yeah sure, but then again as someone before said that there should be consequences for it and that those consequences can only apply if you can report it, and since you cannot since it is censored I do not think the current system works. But obviously constantly getting called racist names is not something you would want anywhere.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3521392#Comment_3521392
Being an adult game doesn't mean there are no standards and it's a free for all.
Yes, context to a response does matter.
"And like I said if this harms you so bad then you should not be here, your choice after all you're an adult but you cannot complain then that the community is mean to you, that would like going to the chess club and complaining they don't play cardgames at all ^^ (a little bit of exaggeration here, but I guess you know what I want to say)."
Once again why are you so invested in telling people who are subject to harassment that they are the issue. If I'm out in public and someone yells a slur at me and it upsets me are you going to say "Well there are bad people out there. Maybe don't go out in public if you don't like it." It's shifting the burden on the victim.
Anyway I think this is going off topic now. I think we are in agreement that it should be a choice if you have the filter on or not. Not 100% sure because you seem to be saying that but at the same time pushing back hard and it also comes off as you don't agree.
All I want is the option to turn this filter off, then I don't care how bad it is anymore since it will not be active.
Generally speaking yes (context does matter) but you cannot really tell me that insulting a person is ever the correct response ^^
As for the being an adult part, it however means that there is not that much of a reason for certain measure similar to those for youth protection, it just means that you have to endure more in the sense of tolerate other peoples freedom of speech.
That part wasn't about (racist)insults but the general trash talking, once again. Like I said at the beginning when the tone is rougher and people tend to trash talk more you already know what might be up there, and therefore you need to decide.
The part about shifting the blame to victim is were I somewhat disagree and here is why. Generally speaking people build up a certain resistance, especially when they are used to rougher communities, which gaming communities are certainly one of. Most people (I know, no matter what group they are from in terms of gender race religion or whatever) simply don't care about stuff like that and I would say the majority of the population does not care about such trash talks, not the racist insults and stuff here, simply the trash talk. So when a person is overly sensitive to such things that the general public would not really care about then it is not necessarily the fault of the guy doing the trash talk but more the general risk of life of the other guy. It is kind of similar to food allergies or haemophilia where since there is a specific anomalie in play it alters your risk of life (I don't know a better term, but it is what we use in jurisdiction). This means that behaviour that would not be harmfull to a normal person is in fact harmfull to a person with a specific anomalie and now is the question does the offender take blame for it? Because usually people don't care about this sort of trash talk/insults, but this one person did. Which is why I don't necessarily think the offender is at fault.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3521367#Comment_3521367
Lets make something clear. I am talking about people using slurs and the likes. I'm not talking about "trash talk". Not that this is even censored in the chat. I've seen people call other players trash, bad etc.. many times and it hasn't be censored.
Yes, there are some vile people out there. Once again, why are you pushing so hard for those that don't wish to experience this be in a situation where they have to? What is wrong with a company putting in place featured to help reduce this? Once again, I'm not against an option to turn it off it you are so inclined.
Usually when someone uses lines such as you did that are coming at from bad faith. It sets of alarm bells for me. It was coming from a place of frustration and not from a place to be toxic. having dealt with this attitude all my life I don't have a lot of patience for it.
I want there to be the option for people to do what they feel appropriate, because I don't like to be treated like a child and that should be the same for every adult, it should be our choice to have that option on or off. I don't like being patronized. As adults we should be able to make the choices we feel are being the best or the ones we want and I don't think it is anyones business to interefere there, which is why I would like the option to turn it on or off, the same thing most games have, Mobas, RTS... Even in counterstrike you can mute specific players if you don't want to hear their nonsense anymore, but only in DBD we have a filter that not only does a terrible job, but cannot be turned off and I think this is completely inappropriate for an 18+ game. You could argue when it was for like 12 or 16 year olds that they are not fully able to agree to being exposed to some of the rubbish you hear in post game chats but it is not the case. We are fully grown adults and can make choices of ourselves.
I don't think it changes anything where the response comes from nor does it apoligize it since I don't think this fits a mature adult neither way or does it?
Just to make it clear statements need to be short here because no one is reading a one page essay about why it is like that unless especially asked for and it should be fairly clear that in a game for 18+ people it is each and everyones own responsibility to choose whether or not the community and game itself does them harm or good. And like I said if this harms you so bad then you should not be here, your choice after all you're an adult but you cannot complain then that the community is mean to you, that would like going to the chess club and complaining they don't play cardgames at all ^^ (a little bit of exaggeration here, but I guess you know what I want to say).
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3521354#Comment_3521354
"why do people care at all what gets said in post game chat and forums and whatever? "
Because there are people from marginalized groups that face this battle on a daily bases in their real life. So if they are in an environment where they are trying to relax and forget about the world e.g. a computer game. I don't see an issue with developers implementing features to prevent this abuse.
I'm all for talk about how maybe they can enable a feature so those so desperate to see what's behind the *** can but it's totally bs when people reduce it to "Oh, you shouldn't be on the internet if you can't handle it." Maybe those that can't act like mature adults are the ones that need to get off the internet.
Online gaming has basically always had toxic communities, you probably will not find a single game that does not have at least a partially toxic community, the tone is just always a bit rougher, you can like it or not but it is how it is. My point is that it is already a given that you might encounter people that will insult you for whatever reason and that has in fact an impact on you than you need to find a way to avoid that, I think you can disable chat entirely? But then again is it worth the risk? What I meant was not that it is a bad thing that all the insults and other garbage gets censored but more that if you get hurt by words other than that... I mean you can still call people trash and insult their skill and what not and if that already has an impact on you then you should not be on the internet as you are way to easy to influence in your daily life by such things.
Also overall people don't really complain about a filter as such but about how bad this one is, not only does it censor the most random things but you also cannot turn it off.
Als your last part seems a bit hyprocritic xD First you tell me to go back to my bridge and then call for people that are unable to behave like mature adults to get off the internet... By that reasoning shouldn't you be off the internet as well pal? ^^
And as for the whole debate about freedom of speech vs right to develop your personality freely without harmfull influence I would say that there is just a baseline off stuff you need to be able to deal with, not all the racist insults and what not but if somebody calls you trash then you either can handle it or you shouldn't play games with other people that you don't personally know because even the most chill player will call you trash if you really mess it up and that is somewhat fair.
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A better way than just censoring words randomly would be to at least have an option to disable the filter as well as to just have an option to block people who spout nothing but insults, so you don't this stuff shown anymore, even better if you get an icon on people you already blocked so you can avoid the lobby. Most games have both options and I don't see that those would be hard to implement and they would be way healthier than this god awful filter you cannot turn off.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3521295#Comment_3521295
" If you get hurt by words of random guys on the internet you shouldnt be on the internet."
Go back to your bridge.
Sure dude hahaha, but for real this seems to be a problem these days, why do people care at all what gets said in post game chat and forums and whatever? Why would you care what a random person that knows nothing about you says... And if it so much as influences you then you should not be there as it may have a negative impact on you. But sure your point is indeed very true as I am homeless and live under a bridge, my PC with two monitors is also setup under the bridge... You have any more usefull contribution to the argument as to why 18+ year old people that can basically make almost every decision in life on their own are being censored in your 18+ year old murder simulator because words might hurt your feelings?
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The funniest thing is that names don't get censored so you can call you the most perverted name ever with sexual pratctises and what not but when you try to write that in chat it does not work this is hillarious. But yes the filters suck obviously, but for some reason in an 18+ game you cannot say some words bc some peoples mental state seems to be weak af or something? If you get hurt by words of random guys on the internet you shouldnt be on the internet.