Archol123
Archol123
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Reinstalling the game seems to have added those options, I don't know why they were not in it beforehand though...
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530008#Comment_3530008
you see it directly on the video. Stacks are highly against you, but if you stun spirit, you do have agency and can get to next pallet (and die there, because getting 2 stuns in a row is just too unlikely). But at least there's something to be done.
But yes - it's very good example of how broken the killer is (TBF - the match might be more interesting if there were absolutely no restrictions - so 4 survivors bringing 4 BNP's - as they are vs most OP version of spirit - and see where the balance is in that case)
He literally comments on the play in the sense of "People will be saying why are the survivors not winning those pallets?" You're not supposed to win those pallets, this is a top tier spirit, you're not gonna win those pallets" The whole reason why he was surprised when the spirit got stunned is because it is so rare, and when it basically never happens then can you even consider it as something you can do? Dying under the pallet is ofc a thing though.
As for the no restrictions thing, I think there was a tournament once like a year ago or so? I think ScottJund made a video on it, I'm sure you can find it eventually. But I don't think so, it just shows that some things should not be in the game, like busted items and addons for example.
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[/Script/Engine.GameUserSettings]
bUseDesiredScreenHeight=False
[ScalabilityGroups]
sg.ResolutionQuality=100.000000
sg.ViewDistanceQuality=4
sg.AntiAliasingQuality=1
sg.ShadowQuality=4
sg.PostProcessQuality=0
sg.TextureQuality=2
sg.EffectsQuality=0
sg.FoliageQuality=0
sg.ShadingQuality=0
sg.AnimationQuality=3
[/Script/DeadByDaylight.DBDGameUserSettings]
DeviceLoginTokenID=
ScalabilityLevel=0
AutoScalabilitySet=False
AutoAdjust=False
ScreenResolution=100
FullScreen=True
MenuScaleFactor=80
HudScaleFactor=80
SkillCheckScaleFactor=100
LargeText=False
HUDPlayerNamesVisibility=True
HUDKillerHookCountVisibility=True
HUDScoreEventsVisibility=True
FPSLimit=60
MainVolume=30
MainVolumeOn=True
MenuMusicVolume=5
MenuMusicVolumeOn=True
UseHeadphones=True
MuteOnFocusLost=True
KillerCameraSensitivity=50
SurvivorCameraSensitivity=50
KillerMouseSensitivity=50
SurvivorMouseSensitivity=50
KillerControllerSensitivity=100
SurvivorControllerSensitivity=50
AimAssist=True
ControlType=1
InvertY=False
SurvivorInvertY=False
Language=en
LanguageIsDefinedByPlayer=False
HighestWeightSeenNews=42132
SharedLoginInformation=(LoginProvider="",AuthToken="",TokenType="")
LastPanelContextId=0
ArchivesAutoPlayVoiceOver=True
HasAcceptedCrossplayPopup=True
HasAcceptedCrossProgressionPopup=True
UseAtlantaCustomizedHuds=False
UseAtlantaSurvivorQuickTurn=True
UseAtlantaKillerQuickTurn=True
ShowPortraitBorder=False
PartyPrivacyState=friends
ColorBlindMode=0
ColorBlindModeIntensity=10
BeginnerMode=True
Subtitles=False
SubtitlesBackgroundOpacity=1
SubtitlesSize=1
bUseVSync=False
bUseDynamicResolution=False
ResolutionSizeX=1552
ResolutionSizeY=873
LastUserConfirmedResolutionSizeX=1552
LastUserConfirmedResolutionSizeY=873
WindowPosX=64
WindowPosY=88
FullscreenMode=1
LastConfirmedFullscreenMode=2
PreferredFullscreenMode=1
Version=5
AudioQualityLevel=0
LastConfirmedAudioQualityLevel=0
FrameRateLimit=0.000000
DesiredScreenWidth=1280
DesiredScreenHeight=720
LastUserConfirmedDesiredScreenWidth=1280
LastUserConfirmedDesiredScreenHeight=720
LastRecommendedScreenWidth=-1.000000
LastRecommendedScreenHeight=-1.000000
LastCPUBenchmarkResult=-1.000000
LastGPUBenchmarkResult=-1.000000
LastGPUBenchmarkMultiplier=1.000000
bUseHDRDisplayOutput=False
HDRDisplayOutputNits=1000
KillerToggleInteractions=False
SurvivorToggleInteractions=False
SprintToCancel=False
HUDConstrainedAspectRatio=False
LegacyPrestigePortraits=True
HapticsVibrationPS5=True
HasAcceptedProgressionSystemInfoPopup=True
IsAnonymousMode=False
HideYourName=False
HideOtherNames=False
HiddenMatchmakingDelay=False
BonusTierTooltipVisibility=(archiveId="",isVisible=False)
[ShaderPipelineCache.CacheFile]
LastOpened=DeadByDaylight
That's basically all that is in my GameUsersettings file...
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You might be onto something with the second file or something like that, because for some reason my file does not include those two things:
Visual heartbeat: TerrorRadiusVisualFeedback=True
Anti-Aliasing: AntiAliasingMode=0
they are just not in there, I even searched with the strg + f search bar. But how is that a thing? I did it just by typing %appdata% in the search bar and got to this thing, I'm kind of confused right now.
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@zarr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3529509#Comment_3529509
Well, if your config file being read-only isn't the issue, making it read-only could be the solution. Prior to that however, make sure you don't accidentally have DbD installed on another drive, duplicate folders, or maybe even a secondary version or the like. Verifying the integrity of the game's cache is also good practice, just to make sure.
If you can exclude any such possibility, try adjusting these values as follows in your GameUserSettings.ini, setting it to read-only afterwards. Do remember that that will mean any settngs you apply from the menu in the future will be reset to whatever is in your file upon restart.
Visual heartbeat: TerrorRadiusVisualFeedback=True
Anti-Aliasing: AntiAliasingMode=0
Screen Resolution: This depends on what you mean exactly. Do you want to play in fullscreen mode with a distinct resolution, or do you want to play in windowed fullscreen mode/use the resolution scaling?
I tried making it read only but nothing happened to the contents of the file, no matter what I changed in the game settings even. What do you mean by installed on another drive? Aren't the game user settings. ini files standard on the same drive as your OS? Yes the rest of the game is on another drive, but I cannot really influence where that part is placed right?
As for the resolution I have a weird monitor with a standard resolution of 1650x1080 or something similar to that which is why I always have black bars bottom and top and I just wanted to figure out if I could get them to be smaller or something like that.
Verification of the files also did nothing.
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@rvzrvzrvz said:
Dredge and Wesker were cool additions but after that it's really abysmal... knight, SM, singularity, reworked sadako, alien are all awful, I want to see dev gameplay against knight and xeno just for a laugh, all loops are useless and survivor skill doesn't matter it's not dbd
Dredge had basically the Artist problem with holding his power and placing it on one side of the loop and then chasing into that, where you get hit unless there is a connected tile.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIiGws6MTwk@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3529996#Comment_3529996
I absolutely agree that we had worse things. No argument there. OG legion absolutely went into that category. 7 blink nurse sure did as well (even though at that time people didn't know how to abuse her to our current disgusting level).
As for spirit - can you provide me video? Because I didn't see that one. I know that with old MDR+amulet, you could do absolutely disgusting things (I think it was actually best presented by Ayrun - and that general looping was indeed meaningless and camping pallet while really bad was your only option) and chances were stacked against you - but you still had agency.
Xeno does not care about predrops or stuns (provided he is not so damn very far, that he doesn't even get to hit-distance before you can LoS hide).
That's the video I'm referring to, at some point they just decide to go down under the pallet because they cannot play it properly, Hens also states that on wreckers yard (i think it is?) there are only 2 pallets that can stop the spirit being shack and the crane.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3529984#Comment_3529984
Old spirit without sound que - agreed. New spirit? No. You can always try to greed and go for stun. You will probably loose, but you have agency - if you are at decent pallet that is (also spirit is 110% so once she is out of power, you have plenty of time to move to next loop).
Old legion - agreed. He was worse. Thankfully they changed it.
Old pyramidhead - I think this is about the same thing - you also didn't have any counterplay and whatever you did was just loosing in a different way - but again, this was changed exactly because of it.
DS - he was 110% that could be played against well on macro scale. Sure enough, in 1v1 manner you had very little counterplay, but you could still predrop once injured which worked on strong pallets - so he wasn't this bad.
But do you notice you yourself, that you are now comparing him to all the killers that needed to be adjusted? Some of those in an age where survivors had super-busted things (like 4man hatch escape you could track with map even before doing gens and key that you could always use instantly for whole team escape)? The game got a lot more balanced for both sides. But now enters Xenomorph.
The thing is on a macro state sure, but that doesn't say anything about counterplay in chase. From the beginning I didn't argue about the need to change him, I just said that I find it a bit over the top to call him basically the worst, because we had many more terrible designs.
As for Spirit if we look at Hens' spirit showcase I don't think you have much of a chance to get the stun, especially if the spirit just takes pallet controll. If the spirit is good ofc.
I think old DS was this bad, there was not much you could do when he was behind you sure when you were far enough to drop a strong pallet, but besides that.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3529953#Comment_3529953
I could be remembering it wrong tbf... I don't particularly like insects or want to see a documentary about them.
For Bees the point is that the drones are worthless over the winter and get chased out of the hive to die, but the workers are still needed, guess it might be similar for other insects.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3529961#Comment_3529961
Sure, but they don't play only public games.
At some point you simply need to play with best players possible, if you want to improve. Either KYF or 1v1 matches.
There is limit how far you can get simply by public games and it's even worse for soloQ only.
True, the matchmaking is just way too bad to offer good matches.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3529972#Comment_3529972
It is hard. Don't get me wrong - this is not something anyone can do. But if you get someone who can do that - then your personal skill or experience as survivor absolutely does not matter. You just loose - because there's literally nothing you can do - just hold-W until you die in a corner
I mean that is somewhat the same against a really good spirit, are like two pallets a map she needs to kick and everything else is useless and she will get a hit. I think old legion was even worse than that. Or when Pyramid Head first came out with the really short time betweens canceling the m2 and hitting an m1. There are many examples of killers with design that don't offer counterplay. Or Deathslinger with insta shooting. I don't think that Xeno is that much worse than those examples.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3529955#Comment_3529955
I think he's more oppressive then current nurse or blight without alch ring+C33. For nurse you can go edge map. For blight you can predrop. For xeno? You can buy yourself 6m IF you spend quite some time setting up turret and are able to take the chase to him - and that's it.
Xeno can hit above/thru most loops, can always disable turret by single M2 (that is not even punishing), can hit you even if he misses by dragging his hitbox, can hit you over any pallet and over any window.
So what's the counterplay? Only those turrets and they don't give you much while taking quite some + respawn slowly. Sure enough - this is the case only if Xeno actually knows how to grab his hitbox to reliably hit you over car loops (or anything lower) even if you are crouching.
If you get a really safe pallet you can also predrop that, but yeah it is mostly pre-running. The question is what skill level on the killer I can't really tell how good you need to be to hit over some loops, for example the rock tile on Ormond with the snowmobile... I saw ScottJund getting a hit over that thing, I however have no clue how hard it is to consistently hit over those tiles... Therefore I cannot really say if it takes a certain skill level to be oppressive on the killer or not.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3529959#Comment_3529959
Hours don't mean skill.
It's definitely true if you play only soloQ and don't try to learn.
I think most of the comp players have around 10 k hours and there is also that rule of thumb that it takes around 10k hours to master something?
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@truthserum21 said:
alien is the most unfun and oppressive killer to play against in dead by daylight history. this game used to be designed around mind gaming killers to evade chase and using resources to do so. i admit that the bugs and some of the old mechanics made it extremely survivor sided but its as if we are paying for it now.
almost every killer in the last 3 years has been designed around any combination of the following, tracking/locating survivors with ease, monitoring or cutting off whole sections of the map(3 gen strat), almost completely ignoring all resources(pallets and windows), camping or monitoring hooks and gens, brutally slowing down the game for either extremely fast 4Ks or long, drawn out, cat and mouse gameplay.
Again, we may agree to disagree AND I understand that on a competitive level the game still leans towards survivors(slightly, at least). What percentage of games played does anyone think are 2000 MMR or higher with full, coordinated 4 player teams using voice comms? If I had to guess, Id say 20% at best, and that's being extremely generous. Even top MMR teams who are not communicating in voice chat to coordinate perks and sharing knowledge are severely hindered against even mid range killer players due to things like map design, killer perk build strength, and how strong recent meta killer base kits have been designed. Not even the OG Borrowed Time was as oppressive as the killers ability to slow and stop game progression with minimal effort today.
Can a window or a pallet save you from Nemis tentacle, Tricksters blades, Pyramids damned strike if you bait or fake? Yes, of course. Can you reroute a loop to evade a crow or a remnant, absolutely. Can you split gens in an effort to minimize guards and drones, sure. Was it a thing to regularly take a hatchet in the back when you didnt fake a vault, it was indeed. But every new killer has a new counter play to learn while survivors stay the same.
With the number of players being higher today as well as killer perks being far more oppressive to players in that class(new to moderate) the chances of a killer landing a lobby of a team they can not only beat but annihilate, torment, and embarrass if they wish to is exponentially high. Something has to give because the game is becoming extremely unfun on a far more than "you win some, you lose some" basis.
I get that the devs hold onto their 60% kill rate for dear life and how important that statistic is to them but its not really an accurate representation true game play or experience. At the highest MMR survivors escape a lot more but at mid to low MMR the number of 4Ks is much higher which makes for a perfect imbalance.
I don't know where I am going with this and I don't have the answers to solve this enigma and assure myself its all a dream but I think that some subtle changes to improve overall QoL and player experience are needed. The only thing I worry about is trying to find the root of the "problem" like was done with the healing nerf. What I mean is I think a massive change to any single mechanic could have a dire effect and instead analyze all the "little things" that create instant wins on either side while also taking into account how often these "little things" occur in 4 player lobbies as oppose to players not working directly together.
I get that this kind of feels like reading word soup but as someone who has loved this game since it's first day available on console I'm just not having fun as much as I did year 1-3(for console). Don't get me wrong, when it is fun its still a shot of that "good dope" but those days are few and far between now.
Anyway, if you got this far thanks for riding my bozo bus to nowhere.
You really think Alien is worse then original legion? I mean as long as I don't get moonwalked follow by that guy I have not reached the most unfun thing in the game. And I would argue in the sense of oppresing a good Nurse is still further up, or a Good Spirit or a good Blight.
I fully agree that his counterplay is basically non existent besides the turrets and perhaps faking vaults, but outside of his tunnels he still has to walk as an 115% ms killer, so at least you can prerun to some degree?
I agree Xeno is problematic at least, but I wouldn't go as far as you did.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3528662#Comment_3528662
dredge uses feminine pronouns in portuguese so I'll default to that.
demo uses masculine, so again defaulting to it. same for xeno.
on topic. based on other species with a queen that has the egg laying job... everything but the queen is male.
but any single drone CAN become a queen in the absense of one. there is a proccess and everything.
so what I'm saying is... xeno said trans rights
edit- forgot... a popular theory is that they are all female and the facehugger is the actual male.
At least for bees that is not accurate. A quick google search will tell you that the queen is female and fertile, the drones are male and fertile and the workers are female and sterile... Sooooo I don't exactly know how all the other insects work in that sense, but at least for bees that is not the case what you stated.
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@EldritchElise87 said:
Actually serious question, it's something I have wondered fort a long time regarding the Alien franchise, assuming the Queen skin is she/her (although if not, that's cool too, you're a psychosexual avatar of gender and sexual confusion, you do what you want. )
The biology makes everything ambiguous, as it should be, I notice most people default to calling the default Xeno male, and while that's valid (and certainly reinforced by some fanart ive seen ahem), I really don't see it based on design and lore biology, nor does female, genders weird like that.
Would xenos actually meet the gender of "its" unironically? They/them?
Discus in a light hearted and non bigoted way.
Soooo aren't you asking for the biological sex of the Xenomorph here? Because I don't think gender applies as that would need the Xenomorph to be on a similar level of intelligence as humans with self reflection and all such? In the same ways animals don't have gender in that sense?
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I have the same issue and basically nothing helps, despite already disabling the anti aliasing in the .ini files the option still has an impact in the game. And no matter what I change ingame it gets reset when I start the game again, and it does not even matter if the files are on read only or not...
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@jajay119 said:
Survivor sided? With the amount of wide open space for killers to see you from miles away and half the map always being a dead zone for gens with sheer amounts of nothingness all round the edge? Come on now. Yes it's a terrible map, but it's not survivor sided in the slightest.
What does it matter if the killer can see you? That's an advantage for the survivors, since they also see the killer from a mile away and can pre run easily, most tiles are chained easily similar to how cowshed used to be the wall tiles got made higher so you cannot even hit over it anymore and it is just generally really safe with like 15+ pallets with almost all of them being really safe. It is really survivor sided and probably around the top 5 of most survivor sided maps In The game. Also collision on most tiles is terrible and makes you slide off of so much or you stuck on random stuff. Even from a technical standpoint it is a terrible map. The red effect it has negates seeing scratchmarks in the distance and will often trick you to think there were some when it is just that filter or burning pieces of wood that shimmered.... All around it is a God awful map.
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@zarr said:
This does sound like your config file is in read-only mode, like Dinoraptus suggested. Perhaps you are checking the wrong file? With some update not too long ago, BHVR spawned a new folder for config files for some reason. You find your GameUserSettings.ini file here, now:
AppData\Local\DeadByDaylight\Saved\Config\WindowsClient
Yeah I know, but I only have that one folder there so, can't be that either.
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@Dinoraptus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/389690/why-dont-my-settings-get-saved
If you changed your in-game settings using the GameUserSettings.ini file, you needed to do this to get 120 fps or to turn of vsync before the most recent patch, you most likely set the file to Read Only, which would prevent the game from overwriting it with changes to your settings.
Already checked that and it did not help :/
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@WiseTraveler said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3527344#Comment_3527344
@Archol123 I see what you mean, I understand that getting a trap off if the killer specifically follows you to the ends of the earth and never goes after someone else because you have the active head trap that your options are limited. Luckily for the most part pigs only do it, if they think you're a cheater or they see no other way to get a kill, kind of like a last resort type thing just right before the end game, etc.
As for the crouching part you suggested it could work in theory, but then you're suggesting basically ignoring the dash mechanic/function that was designed by the developers to use in Chase and forgetting that it exists. If I really wanted to I could just use Amand's letter and see if they just leave the loop with aura. then use combat straps to stand up pretty quickly. The dash just needs a little extra distance, whether that extra distance is made up in duration or in speed I don't know. But it's called an ambush for a reason it should come out of nowhere. If I sneak up on a survivor which already takes up too much time hence why it should be around 4.0 m/s crouching speed. I actually would use it and feel like I'm not wasting time. Even if I get super close in a spot where I can't be seen the noise gives them just enough time to run and I still don't land it. I think we should encourage to have a better ambush dash so it's actually a unique power that requires survivors to pay attention. Rather than my basic M1 killer mind games that practically any and all killers can do.
At its current state, the dash is usually used at very weak pallet structures and dead ends where the survivor has no choice but to stay. Buffing the distance of the dash would make it a more viable option at some other structures while actually punishing boring hold W counterplay. Then maybe the pig would be more interesting than just an M1 killer lady who puts a little device on your head. I find playing pig already pretty fun because it's a challenge but I think the joy of landing ambushes and or avoiding them for both sides would feel gratifying.
The developers design is years old from a time where killers had modes, like old doctor, even with combat straps it takes like an entire second to crouch or un-crouch. And to use an ultra rare addon just to make better use of your power seems a bad idea as well. Her dash should be usable regardless of addons, and it is currently not, running the trap addons gives you so much more slowdown that you just cannot catch up to with what the dash provides you with.
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@SirCracken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3527326#Comment_3527326
I can think of a way Grim Embrace could be buffed without being overbearing. The changes are as follows:
- Change the 5 seconds of aura reading on the obsession to be on all survivors. The perk has nothing to do with the obsession anyway. And the map-wide aura reading would help the killer capitalize on the gens being blocked.
- Increase the time gens remain blocked to 50 seconds. This is a no-brainer change. If the killer goes out of their way to hook every survivor they deserve more downtime.
- Let the perk be reactivated. This massively increases the potential value of the perk if the killer avoids tunnelling. And helps put it on par with Pain Resonance. Since PR effectively gives survivors an extra gen to repair after hooking everyone. And the buffed Grim Embrace would do the same if the killer gets all 8 hooks. Which is very fair for the effort required.
depending on the killer the 50 seconds might be rough, because thats almost the time of a full hook stage, so this might lead to camping :/
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@WiseTraveler said:
@Archol123 I did say it might be a bit too much but the point is that survivors shouldn't be rewarded for just leaving the loop when I go down to crouch and do an ambush. Nor should the killer get the down for free, but the point is to make the ambush strong enough to where people will actually start using it and Survivor will have to make a stronger counterplay than just hold W.
You can still find a hatch to escape with an active trap on. Bhvr can't really do anything to stop people from just crouching following survivors the whole match to get the guaranteed 1k without completely destroying the strength of the trap. If it's that a big of a problem then why doesn't anyone bring it up until I'm asking for slight changes to make the pig's stealth actually capable?
If it's that big of an issue to you make a forum post and suggest how to fix the issue without completely destroying headtraps.
The easiest way to prevent the just running away is make the build of the power way faster, make her crouch basically instant like ghostfaces or really fast, then you really don't need to do much about the speed or duration of it.
Sure you can still find the hatch, but that would require your teammaes to leave and most likely you will be injured since tunneled of of hook, I don't think there is a realistic chance for the survivor to get hatch, on paper yes but in practise no. I'm not saying it is a huge problem in practise, I was just arguing that it is wrong to say that every killer can do it, since this interaction is a more succesfull way to get the kill despite all the efforts of the survivors, unlike tunneling with other killers.
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Good to know thanks :)
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@WiseTraveler said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3526781#Comment_3526781
@Seraphor Sorry, I didn't read yours I read the rest and I should have taken the time to @ those specific people. I would agree to a crouch speed and ambush speed increase.
The distance for an ambush with 3 seconds is 20.7 divided by 2 to get 10.35 m/s to get the same amount of distance in two seconds.
So I would love 4.0 m/s Crouch speed and Ambush at 10.35 m/s (this might be too much, who knows can't really test what that speed would feel like)
As for traps, it depends on your situation and the decisions of survivors that determine a trap's strength. But I guess that's what I get for having a slowdown that's somewhat based on rng.
Also, this wasn't part of my post but I forgot to mention that Pig still has the issue of looking down after hitting a survivor when Bhvr tried to add it then removed it but then proceeded to forget the killer who had it in the first place.
more than 10m/s? That's like 250% movementspeed, that's faster than hillbillys chainsaw... That might be a bit too much. You could probably outplay most tiles in the game with it easily, without much thinking or skill, just take pallet control and use that. I don't find this a good idea, I would rather have it be slightly faster and or longer, but not that much faster.
@WiseTraveler said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3526830#Comment_3526830
@rvzrvzrvz Any killer can tunnel a survivor, the pig just happens to have two methods to do it, which is to follow an active trap survivor while being crouched or 3 hook them. Any and all killers can do this it isn't unique to Pig specifically. You said it yourself that it's not an optimal way but so is 3 hooking if you're not proficient in it. If you have an issue with following an active trap survivor or regular tunneling then make a forum post about it. Bhvr has already implemented this like having to be out of the chase and being alive for trap timers to continue going. Forcing head pops is mostly a waste of time so there's no point in nerfing traps even further than what they already are.
When you try to tunnel with any other killer you are not guaranteed to get a kill after you down them once. Sure it is not a winning strategy, but if you play as pig, down them once, put a trap on them, and then follow them around, there is nothing they can do to prevent this guy from dying, just nothing, and that by itself is problematic, does not really matter that it is not happening to much, but just the possibility.
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@WiseTraveler said:
I guess we skipped over my extra second of a duration dash and crouching speed and only read the head trap part and also the part at the end that said I only need the dash and crouching part, the head traps are just extra but alright.
Generally when people do that, then they just focus on the part they don't agree with or find problematic, nobody needs to hear the same sentence that says first part is good 20 times...
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I really don't like the change to head traps, not only will the part that makes it activate in egc give you basically a free kill in endgame it also gives way too much slowdown, that's basically the time of 4 extra generator with the the time survivors spend to walk to each box, even more with certain addons, pigs chase should be better In a way that so much slowdown is nowhere needed.
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@EternalHails said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3526326#Comment_3526326
if you're not injured, you can easily walk towards Rin in phase and end up behind her. Don't think I want to make Rin an invincible killer, I just want more surprises, more terror, more excitement. And now that we have, you hear someone fixing the generator, you get out of phase and run over there, but of course there's no one there. Take Nurse, Wesker, Blight they can still do it.
The game really has no terror once you played for a bit and there is nothing to bring that back. Also a really good spirit will hear their breathing or see the grass move, and once they stopped running and making noises by that maybe just end phase and look where they are? Like I said, the Spirit is still in control.
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Also for the "tierlists put her in B tier argument", here I have a tierlist that makes a lot of sense from pcgamesn that is two weeks old:
I mean honestly look at this mess, this thing is all over the place. Basically nothing makes sense here and I have no clue what their arguments are, because the text explaining it is just as useless.
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@EternalHails said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3526317#Comment_3526317
No, I didn't mean that, but the fact that Furin was more adapted to the new Rin - now it makes zero sense. And Stridor does more harm than good. especially on closed maps.
And identifying Rin should not be as simple as it is now, apparently)
If it was not that simple, than what are you expecting of survivors? She is moving at almost double their speed so they are required to know where she is and react appropriately? At this speed that's really not that easy to do before she hits you.
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@EternalHails said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3526306#Comment_3526306
In general, the only thing that bothers me more than anything is that the surprise effect was taken away from her, Rin, who in the phase has fewer target identification markers than the one who is running away from her. I wish this directional hiss wasn't such a strong advantage. Rework the furin useles under the new Rin. What is there to say that even beginners with 200 hours in the game can easily understand where you are in phase with an accuracy of a meter. What can we say about high levels, but Spirits play them much more confidently and professionally.
You still move at almost double their speed, what does it matter that they have somewhat of an idea where you are? XD Look at the spirit showcase Hens did, there are like 1-2 pallets on a normal map that can stop a Spirit and on every other tile she will get a hit.
Do you want to make playing spirit more beginner Friendly or what do you mean? I think she is already fairly easy to get into and can use perks like predator or the nurse breathing perk to help beginners, there is really not that much you need to start playing her?
There needs to be something that gives the survivors an idea where she is because otherwise you are just guessing and that's what used to be the case and it was terrible gameplay. The current version is fine.
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@EternalHails said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3526282#Comment_3526282
I voiced only my subjective opinion about the power. I don't think that Wesker is weaker in Spirit in her current state. Mother's ring was indeed very strong. He was rightly nerfed, but I never played with it anyway.
Here, for example, is one of the popular rating sites. yesterday I actually saw her already in tier B)
some bug made me rewrite this post several times😁
Those so called popular rating sites have the wildest ratings I have ever seen, also the things they based their ratings on are often times completely off, some use only the perks that killer has for example and not how well they go with all perks considered. I have seen some unqualified tierlists putting Blight in B tier, so unless their reasoning is good I would not give anything about the placement, also you didn't link the tierlist?
If you ask a content creator or comp player/streamer for their opinion on their tierlist they will at least explain reasonably why they think a killer is at a certain spot or better than another killer, but those sides give the most random explanations... I read one that said Wraith is A tier because he is easy to learn and helps with finding survivors and map mobility, like what?
Spirits recharge addons got buffed to make up for the nerf in her duration addons, so i guess if you run duration and recharge you are roughly where you were before, just without bonus speed, or you don't get 1 sec more duration but recharge and speed, you can still run mdr with recharge and it is insane, saw I think Hens(?) the other day doing that and it was a slaughter. If you only use her power in small bursts and don't use the entire thing up anyway the nerf doesn't impact her much, her map mobility got slightly weaker and her most broken addons combo is dead, but that is about it. She is still really strong, most likely still 3rd best killer in the game, but I will admit the gap between her and Wesker/Plague/Artist whoever you put 4th, and I would say all 3 of them are reasonable to put there, just got a little bit closer...
But it would be really hard to argue that Spirit is in B tier, with Hillbilly, Demogorgon and probably Nemesis xD That's a bit of a stretch. But hey if you being some good arguments go for it.
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Also Sadakos is waaaaaaay below her, the only thing Sadakos has is her teleport and condemned and if you get a tape the condemn does not even spread, she really is not that good as people make her to be and nowhere near Spirit or Wesker, I would place her around average.
And yes Wesker is really strong, probably in the top 5, but Spirits chase is really quite a bit stronger than his and his build in slow down cannot make up for the difference. Spirits chase is just insane.
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@EternalHails said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3526171#Comment_3526171
I wouldn't be so sure. Her place has long been taken by Wesker. Here it is not even clear whether she is higher than Sadako.
Spirits chase power is way stronger than Sadakos. And her chase is also stronger than Wesker, a good spirit needs to only break God pallets and can use her power on every tile in the game, you cannot say that for Wesker. If you run the recharge + speed addons you will still have a really good chase, you only have around 1 second less of power and since Spirits power is best used in short bursts that does not really hurt her, the nerf was really not that significant as some people make it to be, sure MDR got nerfed a lot but that addons was completely busted and deserved to be nerfed.
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Since there are a huge amount of killers in the game the odds of you selecting the fitting build to have counterplay against the killer is rather slim, it doesn't harm if certain perks help against certain killers but it should not give a huge amount of help compared to the base mechanics.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3525925#Comment_3525925
laughs at the knight. ideally the weaker killer m1 killer base kits should be buffed and their powers should also be improved....
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3526122#Comment_3526122
it would need TCM modification. I kinda prefer dbd because the killer can be more powerful in dbd with crazy powers. TCM killer is a bit more... dull. the victim side is amazing in that game but i can see killer sided not being as interesting. almost opposite problem of dbd with survivor/killer. survivor can be boring due to samey gameplay of looping. it fails to strike balance middle ground of stealth vs loud. dbd is all loud, 0 stealth. dbd survivor has a lot more potencial to grow but they fail to balance elements of survivor to make it interesting. TCM does victim balance a lot better. TCM struggles will be with the killer. inventing new killers that are interesting to play and more maps.
dbd struggles survivor gameplay being engaging and killer's gameplay issues. dbd has a lot more potencial, it just never hits the potencial on both sides.
Yeah Knight doesn't have god design, that's not even a question at that point. Yes they should get buffs to their powers. Imagine Knight in this mode 4 characters chasing after one poor guy...
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3525925#Comment_3525925
Leaving 3 survivors to do objective quickly. In tcm if all chase one survivor other just escape.
I doubt that... You still have perks and chases would go really fast because of the two killers. Also the comparison lacks because in the other game the objective can be reached within less than 2 minutes solo... Also you will never break a 3 Gen against two killers, the mode would need many modifications and could never be a 2v4.
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So now every chase turns into two killers coming from different directions and the survivor just taking a hit regardless of what they do? Like what gameplay do you expect of that?
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3525302#Comment_3525302
It'd be for removing access to more than one person's movement speed. Give her the amount from the claw trap, prevent her from getting any more from multiple people in the radius. It also denies her info on more than one person, and would deny her stealth if that's what she's doing with it, or getting chase buffs if that's what she's doing with them.
Basically, there's already a few reasons to hack drones, and there'd only be more with the kind of changes I'm talking about. Relying on survivors choosing to would be a risk, but that's how some other killers like playing already, so it'd just be a niche strat.
Myers and Hag are good examples of the kind of versatility Skull Merchant almost has and could have if her 3-genning were weakened + everything else were buffed. You don't need that many changes to achieve that all- though I do agree she'd need an extensive addon overhaul either way. Her current crop are... fine, I guess, but they don't do a good job of supporting the versatility her kit has.
Though, it's worth mentioning that the difference between her and the two killers you mentioned is that her versatile builds wouldn't be locked away behind specific addons, they'd be supported by a few different addons, at least ideally. In my opinion, that's even better.
Yeah but you loose that ms once they step out of it whereas the claw trap speed stays for 45 seconds. People should split up anyway, so when more than one person is in a drone radius thats already a mistake on their side.
I guess it would be nice to not have it behind addons, but I don't see that with skull merchant anyway.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3525281#Comment_3525281
No. Skull Merchant gets her stacking Haste for any survivor that is tracked on her little tracker pad, which includes both claw trapped survivors and survivors who are inside her drone's radius. There are two purple addons that give Haste (though afaik one of them, the Prototype Rotor, is still broken and doesn't work), but the idea that being in a drone gives the Merchant movement speed is basekit.
I think you might have gotten some wires crossed somewhere along the line. I did briefly bring up making addons basekit as a way of improving her basekit chase potential, but that has not been an ongoing thread in my arguments. Everything I have talked about aside from that (and aside from explicitly talking about addons being changed or improved) has been about improving what is already present in her basekit.
She has, basekit, stacking Haste, lingering Undetectable, and tracking. Those are not addon effects, though there are addons that improve them. They are a part of her basekit potential and relatively important to her kit's core design, insofar as those are the effects her AOE drones give her and therefore they're a part of her identity even if they aren't strictly necessary for the fundamental concept.
That is why she is a more versatile killer than most. Those things are all there regardless of what you bring into the trial, which means that with some tweaks and changes, she'd have the ability to utilise any of them more potently in dedicated builds. You don't have to bring a stealth addon to use her stealth, it's just there already, but you could bring addons that improve her stealth elements in a dedicated stealth build if you wanted to use that more than anything else.
Yes ofc but earlier you were only referring to the purple addons, when you said removing the drone to get rid of her bonus movementspeed, which only makes sense when refering to the addon, bc by removing a drone you gain a clawtrap and therefore she gains bonusmovementspeed because you are now on her radar, so either we take that into account or we don't. But then it cannot be a reason as to why survivors would have a reason to get rid of drones. Which would mean we basically have almost no reason to remove drones again except for getting rid of her stealth areas.
Well in that sense maybe, but just because the idea is versatile does not mean the execution is good. I mean when we take for example Hag or Myers, their addons allow them different playstyles, I would like the idea if skull merchant. The amount of changes you would need for that, complete rework of her addos, changing numbers and interaction with drones and so much more, I still disagree that her core design is good. Maybe just the general idea about her in the widest sense, but that's all.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3525263#Comment_3525263
I'm genuinely very confused on these points.
Sure, if you slap status effects on everything, etcetera etcetera, but you... don't have to do that. We've already gone over how these are all already parts of her power. This is already how her power works. There's no fundamental change involved, when we discuss these elements we're quite literally talking about number changes and addon tweaks. All those Knight examples would be changing how the guards work, which is not what we are discussing. We are discussing improving what is already there in the Skull Merchant's drones. It's not a change to her power or identity, this is already how she is designed.
To the stealth, sure, five seconds is longer than some would think, but considering it's stealth - IE, you won't be walking in a straight line, you'll be taking off angles and using line of sight blockers - it would need to be higher than five seconds. I'd probably spitball ten seconds as a good number for the basekit, with addons that can bump it up higher and such. The idea wouldn't be for her to be able to cross the map off one drone's stealth, but rather have enough time to both actually reach survivors, and walk between different drones to refresh the timer if she needs to.
As for Legion, whether people like playing against them or how difficult their counterplay is aren't really relevant. What's relevant is that they're very popular to play as, and they have obvious and straightforward counterplay. Some do think they don't have a power if people spread out... and they're very popular to play as all the same. They're not even bad at this point, those complaints are generally overblown, but that's a topic for a different thread, let's not get too far off topic. The point is, their counterplay is obvious, and yet they aren't a problematic design - just sometimes disliked based on personal preference.
Yeah and so do addons on other killers Knight for example has an oblivious and an undetectable addon, this is already the case many killers have such addons and when we talk about what already is in addons, we might as well take those things into account, Skull Merchant also only gets bonus movementspeed via the drones through two purple addons as far as I know? My point is that many killers already have stealth or tracking addons integrated into their kit so skull merchant really is not something special. Freddy already has aura read addons when someone interacts with a dream pallet. Trapper has an aura read and a movementspeed addon, if we talk about potential in that sense then no matter how small the aspect of the kit is and how neglectably its part of the power in total is we can still call it potential right? And that's just how I feel about all those ifs and whens when it comes to skull merchant because all those small things are just so weak and not worth using currently almost comparable to those before mentioned addons. If this all is potential then basically every killer is very versatile in the same way as skull merchant.
I think the stealth should be enough to get closer but not to get so close that she can get a free hit or a gen grab. For that reason 5 seconds should be enough.
I don't know for worse players their counterplay is not obvious enough, which is why they often cleanse a lot or heal.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3525169#Comment_3525169
See, again, we're getting way too far down into whether or not you think this killer is particularly good, or would want to use her. That isn't the bar, the bar is whether or not she is capable of doing these things and if her doing them would be problematic for the game. She is, and they wouldn't be.
You may not think setting up webs of drones and navigating between them would be all that fun or impactful, but there are plenty of people who would enjoy it. Ditto for trying to bait survivors into hacking drones to use claw traps, or for setting them up ahead of time as traps. Separately these would all be enjoyable killer designs for some players, and Skull Merchant has the benefit of (potentially) allowing players to do all three and more depending on what they want for that game.
Some of this also seems to showcase a bit of misunderstanding about how Skull Merchant works currently. Stuff like saying hacking a drone is meaningless because she can put it up again immediately, when hacking a drone actually takes away from her maximum placed drones until that claw trap is dealt with- not that impactful if she's 3-gennning, sure, but if she's trying to use all her drones in different spots to actually play actively, it's a pretty big deal.
At another stage you suggest the stealth only lingering for five seconds, which is only a three second buff from where it currently is - two second buff counting her with the stealth addon. That's hardly a buff that would make her stealth viable, so it's not exactly a surprise that the value you're using results in not thinking that her stealth would be particularly useful. What if it actually lingered for an amount of time that would be noticeable, even if only with addons? What if addons granted you undetectable for other actions, too? What if some imagination were put towards actually buffing the stealth?
As for survivors just choosing the right informed decision at the right time, and that being "you as the killer not doing anything", that's how other killers work too. Whether you like that or not is personal preference, but Plague seems pretty popular and that's how she's designed. Same for Legion, there's a right call for Legion that doesn't really change, but their power is still fun and popular because people just like using it. The same would be true for Skull Merchant's strategic planning and positioning, albeit less popular than Legion. That's not hard, though, Legion are among the most popular in the game.
(Not that popularity matters. Not every killer has to be a good fit for a large number of players.)
So, again, I'll state the most important part of this response: What matters isn't if you think this potential version of SM is strong or useful. What matters is if it's usable, and if it's problematic in the way her current version is.
That's just so many if's and when's. Sure ok she is generally able of all that things so what? So are many more killers in the game if you change variables. If you just slap status effects on everything ofc almost every killer is able to do almost everything. Give trapper undetectable when someone disarms a trap, make freddys pools of blood far bigger and give aura read when someone steps in. Like that's what I said before, potential to be something is just soooooo far off when we talk about something like that. Let's take Knight: What if he had guards that just spot survivors for you? Or a stealth guard, that stalks similar to ghostface for a potential exposed and so on and so forth. If we are just talking about what could be then everything could be. It is not even something special at this point. That's still far too much that would need to change, she would be almost a completely different killer.
If the survivors all have claw traps on them she gets 7% extra movementspeed, thats more than enough to get a rather quick hit/down and since the claw trap lasts only for 45 seconds you will get them back on the fly unless all survivors just decide to get rid of your drones simultaniously, I still don't think it changes what I said before.
How much stealth do you want to give her and why even at this point? Lingering effects don't last that long for a reason, sure give her 1 minute of lingering stealth, that's just ridiculous 5 seconds is a lot considering how far she will go in that time, take a small map and you can probably traverse the entire map if you have 5 seconds, someone would need to do the math, but i would say even on a bigger map that should be enough to traverse without emitting a heartbeat. You get 23 m every single time you leave the drone radius so without even counting in the drone radius itself you are already at 4x23=92m ... Discordance has a range of 128 m and it basically covers the entire map, maybe a few maps are bigger I don't know exactly. But think about it, you could be in stealth around the entire map, with just 5 seconds, try it on Coaltower for example and you can probably almost reach the edges of the map with that stealth.
There are already other addons on killers that provide them with undetectable and I always think of them as a terrible choice just because it robs survivors of the chase, which is basically the most if not only fun thing about survivor gameplay, maybe besides goofing around with friends.
I find Legion a weird example, most people hat going against legion because it is nothing but mending simulator. Also the strategy against legion is pretty easy if you re not completely new to the game, don't heal unless you must and spread out. that's basically why some people complain that the killer does not have a power if they play right, same goes for Plague where they had to give her a fountain from the start so the survivors could not keep her power hostage for the entire game, both designs are problematic and not really good examples for your statement.
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@[Deleted User] said:
its so funny how quick they were to rework the first iteration of legion, but they seem to take their sweeeet time with dull merchant zzzzzz
Guess he was just easier to change than this mess.
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Sometimes you need to cleanse for example when going for an unhook, also she already spawns a pool to begin with. So you should avoid to cleanse if possible, because of how strong her power is, that she is so strong is mostly a coordination error on survivor side when people just cleanse for no reason.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3525142#Comment_3525142
I'm gonna try and condense my responses here a little bit:
Survivors go into places like the main building on Ormond because it's central and it's safe. You'd cut through it to get to other parts of the map, and there's a generator there. Again, I've already asked why it's a problem for drones to have generators in their radius if it's not a 3-gen area defence thing, and if there's no answer to that then using drones for information on top of generators too is perfectly fine. It's an option. You can also use this information/haste in chase, just because that isn't the sole intention doesn't mean it's mutually exclusive.
If the stealth is actually buffed, survivors don't need to be in super close proximity to the drone for you to take advantage of it. I feel like you're applying her current stealth to these hypotheticals.
Good survivors are going to know how powerful something like SM's Haste is, so wanting to turn it off is entirely reasonable. It'll come up to their judgement whether they think it's a good idea in the circumstance and if they can figure out what it is she's trying to use most. Using her Haste, using her stealth, or trying to lure you into traps? Disable it. Leaning on her claw traps? Leave it up.
It proves that she's not just a 3-gen machine and she can do things that aren't area defence, as I've been explaining.
If they want to be in a safe spot, why would they be next to a drone? When they know that the drone can track them if they go in there or a killer might approach without heartbeat from the area the drone is placed in, when you just want to go through you can just run around it. It kind of contradicts itself to want to be somewhere safe when the location is riskier because of the drone.
Ormond is a huge map, so you would probably need to put your drones in somewhat close proximity to each other if you don't want to run across the entire map all the time when you spot something on your radar, ok let's say you use it to track people doing the main generator and then what? Maybe they just won't do the generator at all? Either you protect a generator at a crucial location, because it is needed for a 3 gen or to avoide a perfect 2 2 split on the opposite sides of the map. Either this generator is so important that you want to prevent them from doing it or they can just ignore the generator and go for others in different locations. This is the whole point of why her 3 gen power is an issue, either the survivors ignore the gen or they reeeeeally need to do it. Either you 3 gen or you have not much of a reason to put it there, because survivor might do the drone and just run off when you come because the map is huge like ormond and they can just run to the edges of the map.
Ok let's say she gets like the stealth lingers for 5 seconds, you see a drone like 20 m away, you're healing. The skull merchant could theoretically reach you with no terror radius, only this drone is in a radius of 35 m around you... So you just look into that direction bc if she wants to be stealthy she needs to come from there, or otherwise she will have a heartbeat. Now what? Her stealth is still way too predictable. Also she has only 4 drones, giving her more might make it possible to cover smaller maps too much, so there is a pretty high chance that you will get to a place on a medium sized map with no drone in a 40 m radius around you, if you are somewhat in the corner of the map.
Yeah sure 5% haste is good, and they might want to get rid of it, but only if it is in some crucial position, but then again, when you get rid of it, she almost instantly gets it back, so where is the benefit? My point is let's say you reach a certain tile that used to have a drone, she puts a new one up again, you either try to loop her despite her movementspeed or you try to leave the tile and find another one or you get hit. Disabling the drone only gives you so much time until she puts it up in the same place again. Yeah sure they need to decide to disarm it or not. But how is it a playstyle if all that happens is the survivor making an informed decision on what the best play for the current situation is. You as the killer are still not doing anything. The question for me would rather be how pallet heavy the map is and if it is ever worth it to take a claw trap since you instantly destroy dropped pallets by vaulting them.
You can state that this proves anything as long as you want, it just doesn't a dog does not become a cat just because you call it a cat. I just don't think any other playstyle even remotely works on her, her chase power is basically non existent.
Without changing the movementspeed bonus to something else she will probably always be something like knight/artist or worthless. Because either the movementspeed bonus is so significant that you will actually be able to reliably get a hit, or it will be so neglectable, that her chase power sucks.
At this point (when the movementspeed bonus is significant) it does not really matter if the drone is already at that spot or if she just put it up in no time, you are already in the Knight/Artist Scenario, you are either able to reach another tile or you get hit. The problem is this point does not really change whether you set the drone there earlier to chase someone into it or if you just set it now when you reached the tile. Mindlessly removing the drones doesn't help either because she can basically recall or replace them almost instantly. The worst part of her current kit is by removing the drones you also give her movementspeed. It is just lose lose for the survivors. If you remove a drone to avoid the movementspeed it grants her she just gets 3 % because of the clawtrap. There is just no reason to get rid of it for the movementspeed.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3525124#Comment_3525124
Some of these you seem a little confused on.
There really isn't much I can say that hasn't already been explained regarding herding survivors into active drones. It works, I'd recommend you try it if you don't believe me, just be sure not to activate the drone too early.
If your stealth lingered for long enough that you don't have to be inside the drone's radius to be stealthy, why would the drones need to be so close to the generator that survivors are also inside the radius? On top of that, what about survivors that aren't on generators, because they're healing or taking care of something else?
For hard to reach places, the drones have a radius. Just because the survivors don't go down into the basement or up to the second floor means they never would walk into the shack or into the main building. Take a map like Ormond, for example. Survivors have plenty of reason to run into the main building because of how central it is, which means a trap in one of those two spots would give you information and would probably take longer to be disarmed. Without the threat of Exposed, more survivors would feel inclined to let the drone stay up, too, since it'd be a pretty noticeable time investment for not much immediate reward.
As for how to bait it, that's what makes it an RNG luck playstyle, as exist for other killers too. Heck, Haunted Grounds is pretty exclusively used in builds where you're banking on the right thing happening, as an example. But for how you'd actually do it, you'd put them in obvious locations, most likely. Survivors do hack drones, and I'm sure some teams would want to try and deny the SM her Haste and tracking when it's a low time investment.
Playstyles would be defined as the way you play the match. Your perks and your addons feed in to your playstyle, which is why totem defence is a playstyle; it's a way you're approaching the trial and something that affects your behaviour within it. It's how you approach the game, and how you use the tools you brought into it.
Now, I need to mention this, because it can't go without being acknowledged any longer: We're drifting away from the point here. The point is that Skull Merchant can do these things, not how useful you personally find them or whether you'd personally consider them a full playstyle. The point is that she has these tools available, and they prove that she doesn't need her power redone from the ground up to fix her current issues. That is the argument that is currently being discussed here, we shouldn't lose sight of it.
Just because the main building is centralized does not mean they would go there, why would they?? What is there for them to do besides the generator or maybe looping the kiler there, and even if they went there the whole thing has like 5 entrances, I don't understand you at this point, to be at a specific location in the map you always have a reason, an objective like a generator, maybe a totem, maybe a chest whatever, but why would you go there when there is nothing to do? And if there is a generator, then you are camping a generator.
If survivors are healing or doing something else, they will sure as hell not do that right next to or in close proximity to a drone, unless they don't know what they are doing, because why would they take such an unnecessary risk?
You say they have plenty of reasons to run into the shack, give me reasons to go there outside of chase that do not involve the generator there? Because like I already said, there is no reason to be in an area when there is nothing to do.
Sure, but would you seriously go as far as to call haunted ground a playstyle?
"Deny her her tracking and speed" dude... if they see it, in an obvious position where it is easily avoidable to not go inside, why on earth would you remove it? That's my entire point, you have no benefit, and to remove her bonus 5% ms seriously, why ???? Those are terrible reasons and no semi decent player would remove a drone for those two.
It seems to me that some of those "playstyles" just require players to have no clue what they are doing:
- being in areas where there is nothing to do, outside of chase
- deactivating drones that serve no purpose since they are in the middle of nowhere or obviously placed not providing anything
- healing in terrible positions close to zones that provide undetectable and easy to sneak up on
- running into an area with a drone despite drones being easy to spot
For me those just seem like things more experienced players would not do, because they only provide unnecessary risks and give no benefit, and that's one of the many problems I have with this.
How would this prove anything? It once again just comes down to her being an area defense killer, nothing more. She creates risky zones around the map, just like trapper and hag ok, but how is this versatile? All the things that are not about constantly hovering around a specific part of the map just require players to have not clue what they are doing.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3525096#Comment_3525096
Totems do things, and those things both affect how you play and are things survivors want to stop. Totem defence is a playstyle for other killers, it'd be a playstyle for SM. I'm not even necessarily saying it's a great one, I get how totem defence can be annoying, but it's there and it wasn't mentioned, so it warranted being on the list.
I don't know what to tell you, man, it works. Survivors have to run away from you, and the drones have pretty big ranges. Plus, they're a lot harder to see when they're in scouting mode, so if you hold off on activating it until the last second they often don't have anywhere else to run. This is Skull Merchant's best playstyle on live, imo, as long as we're looking for a playstyle that leads to you winning and not the game force-ending after an hour.
Set up between generators would be a little map dependant but it'd work. It really depends on how the stealth is buffed, if you can at least make it last a noticeable amount of time with addons you'd have a lot of freedom to put the drones in more spots. Either way, it's a playstyle that would be possible with the right changes. Remember that this is to use the drones for stealth, not for chase or area defence, so placing them on generators would just make them easier to hack and wouldn't necessarily help you ambush survivors doing anything except working on that one generator.
For the hard to reach places, I'm thinking like the top floor of stronger structures, or down in the basement, or just generally not immediately out in the open. It's finnicky because you can't get mapwide coverage (and nor should you be able to), but it is doable. Remember that drones are only super obvious when they're in active mode, they can be easy to miss and depending on where they are you may not have a choice of where to go anyway. Plus, if they aren't actively threatening, more survivors might choose to just stay in the zone without hacking the drone. It'd be hard to use and I'd imagine you'd usually want to do that plus something else, but it's definitely an element of her kit.
For hacking the drones, that's why I said it'd be inconsistent. You'd be baiting it, basically, and it's another one you'd probably want to split with another playstyle. Still, people run RNG type builds on other killers all the time, so it'd be something some players would want to do.
So, out of the five I mentioned, we have... five. It doesn't matter how many are viable currently, because we're talking about changing her kit to better enable these playstyles. It's also important not to fall into the trap of just nitpicking apart how useful any one of these playstyles would be, because the wider point is about how her power is one that can enable a wide variety of approaches and how she's not just a 3-gen machine inherently- especially when she's even capable of some of these things on live right now.
The question was how to use her power in a playstyle to win the game, how to you get downs from protecting a totem? You can add it to a strategy and then use her power to protect that totem sure, it cannot work on its own, therefore it is not a playstyle in itself.
Yeah drones have a pretty big range, and their circle is really easy to spot, you have to be blind to not notice it before running in, sometimes the exact border of it are not that easy to notice, but it is like impossible to miss them, I have not once not seen the drones radius, I don't know what to tell you.
I mean the game ends after 1 h and all 4 survivors die, seems like a win to me...
Easier to hack is the point, they would need to be close enough so you can use the stealth to sneak up on people but not to close for them to notice? Drones are so easy to spot unless you're on an indoor map you always see them, it is really not hard to not run into them, I don't know what to say, they would need to be stealthier for this stuff to work.
For the hard to reach places, why would survivors go there in the first place? Survivors would always need a reason to be in or close to the drones radius for any of this to work, why would they be there? Mostly because there is an objective, so back to camping gens I guess.
How do you bait it though? What could you possibly do to make them break the drones?
3 Of those things are just hoping that survivors react a certain way even though they don't have any reason to do so... What can I tell you man, how is it a playstyle when you are not doing anything, you place a drone and hope for them to disarm it wow, how is this supposed to be a playstyle? What even defines a playstyle if that counts as one in your book?
Disarming the drones is a decision on the survivor side whether it is worht it or not, you as the killer can only influence this decision by the location you put the drone, but in the end it is the survivors decision.
So tell me what defines a playstyle? I would say on Trapper for example there are several possibilities, you can spread your traps out around the entire map, you can try to hold a 3 gen and put all traps in close web around that (basically just starting the game out with placing all traps at hand at this area), you can just use the traps in chase when needed, or you can use the traps only to shut down one specific location for example basement. I would call trapping totems rather an additional strategy and not a playstyle since you're just securing your perk, for that to matter you need to down and hook survivors in other ways, so this one does not qualify as a playstyle you can use for the entire game, you can just add it to the playstyle you chose. Just to give you an idea on what I see as a playstyle, you can generally divide them into defensive or agressive playstyles on all killers, it is just easier to show on setup killers.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3525027#Comment_3525027
It is, 3 Gens should be survivors' mistake, not a strategy for killer. I main Trapper and I always against idea of giving him 8 traps at the start. 8 Traps around 3 Gens with extra 2 addon, every match.
The problem with trapper is that people get out of traps so fast that you cannot really spread your web too wide...
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3525088#Comment_3525088
Right, I can see where the confusion is.
So, no, those are not the only two options. In terms of what her power does and what playstyles could be used with a few buffs, you'd have the following:
- Set drones up ahead of time and chase survivors into them, for chase buffs. (This one works on live right now and is her best build, but requires purple addons)
- Defend totems. (This one also works on live, but would be harder without Exposed)
- Set drones up in positions between generators to be stealthy and get the drop on survivors. (This one doesn't work on live but is the easiest to make possible)
- Put the drones in hard to access spots and use them for information, bringing chase perks to basically be a speedy and well informed M1 killer. (This one kiiiinda works on live but it's always going to be the most finnicky)
- Bait survivors into hacking drones so you can use the claw traps. (This one is always going to be a bit inconsistent because it relies on survivors performing certain actions, but it should be an option. )
Part of the issue with conversations about Skull Merchant is that a lot of people don't really consider any way of using a power that isn't 3-genning, very straightforward mid-chase activation, or sometimes camping. Skull Merchant has a power that you'd use to empower your killer fundamentals more than activating in the middle of chase, and that's okay, not every killer has to have something that's geared solely towards chases in the most straightforward way.
I do think it's a little misleading to start asking "well isn't that just [x] killer" because there are only so many power effects in the game and there's going to be overlap. You could easily argue that Sadako, Ghostface, Myers, and Wraith are all too similar because they're all stealth killers, but that would ignore that they all work differently and all bring their own specific flair that a player might prefer over others.
In short, you do not have to use a killer power just in the middle of chase. When I talk about buffing her other elements, they are not all intended to be chase abilities in that way.
How is totem defesen a playstyle? What if they just ignore your totems? Defending a totem like that is somewhat camping it, it can be partially used but it is not like a full thing if you know what I mean? 1. You would only need to use like 1 or 2 drones for that and 2. you still need to somehow get downs and stuff to get value out of probably devour?
The chasing people into the drones is tricky because unlike trapper or hag your drones are visible so they might just not go there, because it is fairly obvious, especially experienced players will notice when the skull merchant goes faster while being close to her drone, so they will just take different pathing.
Set up between generators only works when they are close together and you need to have line of sight blockers, I don't think that one is viable and as long as this works you might as well just place it on the generator itself.
Hard to access spots? You need to explain that a little bit further, the whole problem about her drones is that they are rather easy to avoid going into, unless you place them on a generator, why would a survivor enter a drones radius if he can just go around it and loose like 2-3 seconds? Unless in chase i guess.
Why would they hack the drones though? That in itself is also not really a playstyle, that's just something that happens or not, it is not even in your control if it happens... Right now in the 3 gen scenario at least eternal thought in the end that removing the drones is not even worth the time, which is why they ignored them, which brings up the question how to design it to be worthwhile to get rid of.
Out of the 5 you mentioned I would argue only 2 qualify as playstyles: Trying to force survivors into pre set drones, and setting them up in between or on top of gens... So ok, we now have 3 total playstyles... Out of which only 1 is viable currently.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3525064#Comment_3525064
You do bring up a good point with the Knight/Artist problem, that's kinda why I'm on the fence about giving her some chase effects basekit. I do think she'd be less obnoxious than those killers because those killers pressure you away with guaranteed loss of a health state, whereas Skull Merchant just gets a buff/debuff out of the situation and she also has to wait for the drone to become active, but it is a concern to be aware of.
Still, to be entirely fair, lots of killers can just force survivors to run out with their power, so it isn't a unique problem. It's kind of a game-wide issue to solve, rather than a specific-killer issue.
To your other points... Clown doesn't have Undetectable, I have no idea what you're talking about there. They also function completely differently? Like, the mechanics are completely different, as well as how you'd use them. Clown has a straightforward mid-chase power, Skull Merchant has a versatile power that shines best when it isn't used mid-chase.
You're still focusing a lot on mid-chase interaction when that isn't the only thing this power does. Remember that the strength of it is how it's used overall and in how many other different playstyles it would enable, not just by dropping a drone mid-chase.
When there is a connected tile the playstyle of put power down at loop of Knight and Artist still does not guarantee a hit, but it is really annoying.
I was talking about the different effects of the drone because undetectable means nothing in chase, other than hiding your red light but you can just moonwalk so not that big of a bonus. So if her drones should give her chase abilites that already exist now then it has to be a movementspeed bonus ight? Because that's what some of her addons do, and basically that is clowns power - the blurry vision part... How does her power shine when not being used mid chased except for controlling a 3 gen currently? Isn't that the two current options? 3gen or putting down in a chase at a tile similar to knight or artist, what else is there currently with her drones?
What other playstyles are there? Are you going to play a worse Ghostface or what? :D That's my whole point when you think so much about what could be we don't really have certainties to grasp we cannot really say what will be good or bad with uncertain changes so we can only focus on what is now or if we agree on certain changes. So to be clear...
Currently her power does those things:
- deactivating them gives you a claw trap that will insta break pallets if you vault them with it
- exposed if you stay in there too long
- bonus movementspeed according to how many people have a claw trap
- tracking over the thing in her hand when people are in her drones/have traps (not sure how this one works exactly to be honest)
- no heartbeat while in drones area
And now you said get rid of exposed and buff the other ones, correct? So just we can have a base on what to argue.
The stealth aspect is worse than Myers or Ghostfaces or Wraiths, the movementspeed part is basically clown and the insta break with clawtraps only comes into effect when you deactivate a drone which we would need to argue about why you would ever do that.
Is there anything to add to her power and would changed with your proposed changes?