Archol123
Archol123
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3525051#Comment_3525051
...But I'm not suggesting adding any. The only change to effects I propose is removing one, and the one I am proposing removing is the one that helps the least for when she's played normally. That's not a Freddy-tier ground-up redesign that makes the power completely different, that isn't a case of semantics at all. The power remains roughly the same for everyone that wasn't 3-genning with her, it's just improved and tweaked.
Her power does that now. If there weren't any direct threat from Exposed, it wouldn't. My entire point is that her power only needs changes to the power itself, not starting from scratch like people suggest, to fix that issue.
Ok then, but I would still not agree that a small tweak will work. Let's just say you did that and putting the drone down at a loop has a proper effect to the chase, then what? Will it make facing her more fun and interactive or will it just be Artist/Knight all over again? How do you create such a power that gives you more choices than leave the loop or take the hit with such a concept? We have a rather limited amount of effects those drones could grant currently and if we don't add any and removed exposed we are stuck with undetectable and movementspeed changes. Is she just gonna be clown then? In the sense of her power will be undetectable + movementspeed changes to her, the surv or both? I think it should be something that is different to other killers.
What would be an effect good enough that still allows interaction in chase? There needs to be at least a general concept how that could be accomplished otherwise this is way too cloudy and undetermined.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3525047#Comment_3525047
If I were suggesting changing those effects to something else, yes, but I am not. I am suggesting removing one effect, and improving all the others.
Again, her power does everything I've mentioned right now. Boot up the game, launch a match of Skull Merchant, and your power will give you information, chase, and stealth. It won't be good chase without addons and it won't be good stealth no matter what, but it does it right now.
What will change is how people play her, but that's not even slightly the same thing as her power being fundamentally changed.
Also, any killer's power makes defending a 3-gen easier, that's not the bar. The bar is bringing her down to where other killers are, as well as making her better at doing other things to make 3-gens less appealing.
Is removing or adding an effect to power not a form of changing effects? Like I said semantics...
I wouldn't agree that powers necessarily help in defending a 3 gen, most of them help gettings downs, except for the area defence killers. Her power however directly allows you to controll the area around a gen.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3525035#Comment_3525035
It's a rework, yes, but it's not a Freddy tier rework that makes her power do completely different things. Her power currently does everything I've just mentioned, I am solely and specifically asking for those to be improved while her area defence (in the form of Lock On) is weakened. This has been my position the whole time, to be clear, even if I maybe slipped up and used the word 'rework' when I shouldn't have. I don't know if I did, I'd have to go back and check lol. To be even more clear and direct: The Skull Merchant does not need a Freddy tier rework that fundamentally changes her power. She does need a Leatherface and Doctor level suite of changes that keep her power intact while changing specific elements of it.
For your last question, you'd probably want to put them between generators rather than directly on top, because if your Undetectable actually lingered for any meaningful amount of time you'd still be stealthy while the survivor wouldn't necessarily know to expect you at any second because they aren't sitting inside the radius. Putting them between generators would also usually translate to them being better placed to use in loops, and while stealth isn't the most useful mid-chase power, it's not nothing either.
But, I do have to question- at what point does it matter if they're put on generators? If they aren't being used for area defence/3-genning (because they aren't actually directly threatening) and they just happen to be near generators because that's where you'd get the most information/stealth/chase potential out of them, is that actually a problem?
But if we change what her drones do, we do make her power do make completely different things? Her drones are just a place holder do apply certain effects, her core is put something down that applies effects, so the essential part is the effects that are being applied. Just as Huntress and Clown both throw things at survivors the core is the effect of what those things do.
I would say it still helps in defending a 3gen, because you may get an easier hit with sloppy to then kick it again or even a down to activate surge/eruption. A power that let's you control gens easier will (almost)always be problematic for a 3 gen scenario.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3525025#Comment_3525025
I've been consistent in saying that she does need changes and that when I say she doesn't need to be redesigned, I am referring to changes like the ones Freddy got. I even cited Doctor and Leatherface in another response as the kind of changes I think she does need; the core power remaining the same, but the way it's implemented being tweaked to be healthier and smoother.
If you remove the Exposed, players who want to utilise her drones for chase would need to bring tools that make the drones better in chase. Maybe implement one of the current chase addons into the basekit so she's not totally dependant on them, but other than that her addons need to be overhauled to better represent her modular nature. She needs better chase addons that aren't purple tier, basically.
And that's just if you want to use her drones for chase. Let's not lose sight of what her power design's actual strength is: you don't need to, because it does other stuff as well. You could lean into using it for surveillance, or try and bank on the Claw Traps instead of the drones themselves, or you could use it for stealth. She doesn't need to either be "nightmare 3-gen simulator" or "use drones directly in chase". There are currently other options, and those options need to be improved alongside the 3-gen element being nerfed.
That's a rework then, are we just debating about semantics or what? If we basically need to change her power so it does completely different things then that's a rework, depending on if you see her core just as puts drone down or as drone that does specific things we could even argue that her core gets changed but in the end she needs big changes.
But if you use her drones for stealth, where other then on gens would you place them for you to have a longer duration of no heartbeat for a survivor that stays somewhere long enough for you to go there? That's like the problem of it? Basically the only usefull place to put those drones is around generators.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3525006#Comment_3525006
The thing is, her drones don't inherently prevent people from staying in a certain area. Think about it, the drones themselves are just a light show, the thing that makes them potent is what they do.
So, then, what parts of the drone make staying in that area unthinkably dangerous? It's not the tracking, that just means you have to be a little more careful. Ditto for the stealth, unless you're doing a generator in a really cramped area with only one entrance (So like, the upper story single person generator on Badham, that kind of thing) you'd just be playing as if against a stealth killer in general. The Haste is useful in chase but less useful for actually closing significant distance, so it's not that either.
What that leaves is just the Exposed from Lock-On as the threat, and that can very safely be removed from her kit with the right additional changes. It already barely helps for chase and doesn't help at all for information or stealth, so playing Skull Merchant actively/properly won't be affected, it'll just stop the drones from being thoughtless area defence.
That isn't a full redesign, it's a pretty small change all things considered. I didn't go super into detail on that in my original post because I was more interested in elaborating what I think the distinction between 'core design' and the killer's specific implementation is, but that is where I think the devs should go. Remove Lock-On, and buff her other playstyles now that 3-genning is back down to where a killer like Sadako or tier-2 Myers would be able to achieve the same thing.
What prevents them from staying there is the combination of lock on exposed and stealth because if you play the 3 gen way and only ever chase them away maybe destroy some close by pallets they used to not get one shot then at some point people are unable to do that gen without going down for sure, the only reason that didn't constantly happen in the showmatch was because they were on coms and called out when she was coming back to another gen.
If you removed the exposed in a loop then she just plays normally, even the bonus movementspeed is somewhat a bad idea because an m1 killer with 120% ms or 125% or whatever just plays differently and often leaves the survivor with not much space to outplay the other side because even safer loops are becoming really unsafe.
It is up for debate if that would still not be a rework, but if you change how a killer power works without small number tweaks it is basically a rework, I mean think about doctors rework, where they got rid of his two modes, he kept his shock in loops in the end they changed a part of his power to do something else, which I consider to be a rework.
I would even say the changes to Bubba were basically a rework, when they gave him charges for his chainsaw, and that is not really that much in terms of what changed, 3 instead of 1 short charge.
I would not say either that rework and core elements are excluding each other like, bubbas core that he uses a chainsaw in the way he does did not get changed, he did however get reworked. And if you need to change for example what the drones do overall, then that is a rework, it doesn't necessarily change her core elements, but her core gameplay, if the drones couldn't be used for area controll. But maybe just tracking?
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Hags and Trappers Traps are somewhat hidden so it is kind of a gambling game when you enter their web whether or not you will activate one, which isn't fun either but at least you can hope to find them and avoid or take some not so good pathing where you hope to not step into one, but Skull merchants drones are visible even that part is missing, like it is not like you can force people to activate your trap, they know it is there, they just need to decide if they want to play the loop get the stun or make her break it and make it to another loop before going one shot due to the exposed or if they just run away right away because the loop is unsafe and this is just so similar to knight or Artist in the sense that they setup their power on a loop and if you can reach a connected or close by loop they do it again and if not you get hit, it is basically the same issue, at least artist can also do cross maps or the shotgun method.
They could have done so much fun stuff with it like for example motion detection maybe even give survivors a small motion detector for like 24 m range and have no hearbeat while they are in her territory so skull merchant can be sort of a stealth killer and must avoid being in visible line of sight to the motion detector to avoid being tracked, but then again the alien chapter already does that better with the flame throwers.
It is just that there were so many good ideas the community had and what we got is a terrible killer and everyone was mad, justified... What many expected was some sort of a gear up killer with pieces of equipment spread around the map and that would have been great, imagine her having different modes, maybe one that is oneshot but easy to spot, a sneaky but slow one, maybe a range one? That would have been awesome, let's say she had to gather her stuff and then be active you have drones in your area to spot people, then you decide where to go either sneak or not depending on what approach, people could have decided on how to play her, she would have been really versatile with different approaches that give the player the option on how to play, but what we got was a killer basically without chase power and somewhat two playstyle, 3 gen or chase, whereas one is clearly superior in chances of winning.
That's another reason why everyone says her core design is flawed, because they had this ideas of what she could be and in the end she was none of it, just boring.
She is a chase killer without a cool chase power to get good at using, she is an area defense killer without needing strategy to properly set up your web and think ahead of time as to what path survivors may take and where to place a trap... She is just a disappointment.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3524973#Comment_3524973
There were a lot of posts, and after enough of the mocking ones I kinda checked out, sorry about that.
To address your points now, though, I haven't the first idea where you're coming from. The drones aren't individually versatile, they're versatile because all of them do a number of things that you can choose to build into. Each drone is capable of providing information, giving you chase buffs (via addons), applying Claw Traps when hacked, and enabling stealth via Undetectable. That makes them versatile because you can use them in a number of different ways, the drones don't need to individually do different things to be versatile.
They're versatile right now. My preferred outcome is for BHVR to lean into that and not completely redesign her.
As for the 3-gen issue, I believe SM can be brought down to in line with the other killers in that regard. I don't think the drones being a stationary AOE must always necessarily lead to 3-gens being impossible, it all depends on what the drones actually do and how they're interacted with on both sides.
But overall all they do is prevent people from staying in a certain area, and that's a problem, her basic design of area defense works in that way. It is not the same with Hag and Trapper whereas they make loops in a certain area unsafe but don't necessarily give you disadvantages for doing a generator in a certain area, it is just riskier. The problem with Skull Merchant is that by applying all these effects onto you while you are doing a gen, Trapper and Hag take quite some time to put their web up again if you remove traps or disarm them, whereas all skull merchant has to do is be close to the gen and press the button, you don't even need to think as gens are highlighted, you don't need to chose a good space as to where exactly place them in the loop just the general direction close to the gen is alright and that is a big issue, as many said before with this being the most effective way to play you don't need to learn much, you just put the dron down and that's it. The single most skillfull thing for example we saw in the skull merchant vs. team eternal showmatch was that he placed the drown in the basement, making it harder to disable, but since the correct play seemed to be to just ignore the drones even that didn't matter.
I don't think of it as good design to just put things on the floor and then they just work in a wide area without any imput from you. How can you possible tweak some numbers or change smaller things without a complete rework and have a different outcome? As harsh as it sounds, what else are you supposed to do with the drones? All area defense killers choose a certain area (usually like 1/3 of the map or so) in which they place their web, shut down loops and then basically never leave them, because why would you? But as skull merchant why would you place the drones on loops?
I think it is hard to describe like... The reason you place something on the loop is to make it less safe, or shut it down completely like hag or trapper. But with skull merchant you already protect your goal with the drones and scare everyone away by patrolling them, you don't even need to keep chasing. Removing any of the abilities she currently has on her drowns would probably significantly weaken her power to 3 gen, take away stealth and you can pre run earlier, take away exposed and you can a hit and just keep running, and so on, but then she would be even worse, because then the drones just would not do anything in a chase either? without exposed or bonus ms what is the reason to set it up on a loop? You can just moonwalk to avoid showing your red light. I just don't see a way to remove her capability of 3 genning without completely ruining her chase as well and turning her into the worst killer in the game. The easiest thing to avoid 3 genning is probably just to removed the ability to place them around a gen and basically force you to chase, but then she would be literally the worst killer in the game. that's my whole point, her core design is flawed. And if you basically need to change entirely what her power does then that is a rework.
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@Archol123 said:
When going over what you consider her core elements I would like to say that if the drones are versatile then you basically re-create Knight again because in some sense the guards work similar to the drones, you put them down and they do something, they are even versatile in what they are good at. The problem is you would need to create drones that work in different ways, with strenghts and weakenesses but 1. without recreating the guards 2. without giving them a really good way to 3 gen and 3. create them in a way that allows the player to apply skill.
As for the 3. point you would need to allow the player to decide which drone he wants to use, which is already a mistake they made with the knight since the player does not have the option there
For the 2. point I think this will be really hard, because basically all area controll killers have a rather good way to 3 gen, this goes for trapper and hag the same way it does for Skull Merchant, and as soon as this strategy is a viable option most people will only play that part which makes it problematic in itself.
And for the 1. point I'm not really sure what different options to give the drones, because depending on the addons she already gets stealth, insta down, bonus movement speed and so on and so forth I can only think of so many things the drones could do...
I see what you tried to do, but as soon as you have a killer that puts stuff down that stays for a longer duration and gives some form of information or way to injure/down, shutdown loops then you create an area controll killer (fairly obviously I know). And they all suffer the same issues, good 3 gen potential, this is a problem in itself and the issue that her core concept is flawed, it may not the completely for the bin and all, but it already has this big problem that somehow needs to be adressed, and it would probably be way easier to give her a rework instead of smaller changes.
Also I already tried to adress your post in the proper way and did not get a response to it so I guess when it comes to not readings posts you belong to majority of people who don't read it...
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3524729#Comment_3524729
Interesting to invoke "others have said" in a thread where maybe three respondents actually bothered to read the post, lol.
Unlucky that the Majority of people still hate everything about skull merchant no matter what your post said.
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@Malkhrim said:
Some indoor maps are actually among my favorites. And honestly, playing m1 killers on some indoor maps feels like playing them should always feel, specially the stealth ones. People complain a lot about holding W, but then they complain about the maps where this tactics are actually harder to perform. On them not only you can't see where the killer is coming from when you hear the terror radius, but the gens are also mostly on unsafe locations where you can be ambushed or at least won't have a lot of space to run away once the killer approaches. The only exception to this is RPD, because up to 3 gens there might spawn on extremely open and safe areas, but some of the others are actually on pretty good places to ambush survivors.
Indoor maps have downsides? Sure, but they are highly exaggerated by players quite often:
"You can't use the crows to track survivors": You can't see when they fly away, but you might still notice crows returning to their places after being disturbed by survivors, which also helps you to track. It's important to remember that is way harder to avoid disturbing crows while running on thight rooms and corridors, so they will be disturbed more often, which means Spies from the Shadows is actually worth using on some of these maps. Either way, crows are usually only the last resort for tracking a survivor when you're not getting info from any other source. The impact of not seeing them when they fly is quite small, and compensated by the fact that survivors can't see you approaching either.
"You can't see scratch marks": actually you can, and they are as useful as ever. Sure, you can't see them across the entire map, but that is not really needed on every map, specially considering the advantages this map already provides you. Additionally, aura-revealing perks are more relevant indoors.
"Some killer powers don't work well there": this is the most notable and most repeated argument against indoor maps. But you see, there are 37 killers (Xenomorph included). 5 of them have powers that are harder to use in indoors but can still work around it if the player is skilled (Trapper, Nurse, Cannibal, Oni and Blight) and 6 of them are actually put at a disavantage in indoor maps (Hilbilly, Huntress, Deathslinger, Singularity and Cenobite, Trickster). Meanwhile, All the other 26 killers actually benefit from it, specially 8 of them: Wraith, Myers, Hag, Pig, Ghostface, Sadako, Xenomorph and Knight. Just like indoor maps work against projectile powers, outdoor maps often work against stealth powers, and indoor maps is where stealth killers and builds thrive. Many of the killers who are weaker in indoor maps can actually benefit from them by using stealth perks and add-ons, sometimes even Huntress.
So, even though there's quite a few killers whose powers don't match well with indoor maps, there are far more killers who get benefits from indoor maps, specially stealth killers, who are among the weakest in the game (reworked Sadako being an exception right now, of course). Meanwhile, survivors actually have more space to try to counter the NURSE in these maps, as the best way to counter her is to get out of her line of sight so she doesn't know exactly where you are.
Crows take 15 seconds to return the issue with that on indoor maps is that hiding is incredibly strong so during this 15 seconds they could be everywhere there is an almost infinite amount of paths or places to hide so this does basically nothing for you unless you get lucky. Yeah OK spies might be good, but you don't know before you go to the map unless you play an offering, also I don't even know how common crows are on this map so I cannot really say something about the value it gives, because they could run of the other side of the map bc of the many line of sight blockers and stuff and if they get lucky in their way you wouldn't even notice.
The indoor maps don't provide you with a tracking advantage especially because hiding is really strong chasing after scratch marks that are barely visible is a terrible choice on indoor maps since you do not have the ability to cut them off because you have not a single clue where they are going to, so you just follow them and that takes ages and at some point they might just start hiding and now you wasted a lot of time and got nothing out of it. When you spot scratch marks in the distance on an outdoor map you can see the direction they are going and can try to cut them off, this does not work indoors. Yeah aura perks are great but once again you don't know where you will go unless you use an offering, my go to aura perk is BBQ and it doesn't work on half the indoor maps bc of the range, midwich and the game don't have the length so you oftentimes get little to no value. Rpd and Lerys have the issue that if you get value they are often already I. Narnia bc you cannot estimate their patch because you cannot spot them in the distance, floods of rage is great but then again it basically counters the indoor map factor.
Stealth killers benefit from it the basic m1 killers don't, maps with several floors offer a patching problem for killers with no mobility. The game has 20 safe pallets which almost no basic m1 killer can outplay, maybe clown, but if they just run to the next tile while you are preparing your bottles it is still massively time consuming. The problem is people may just hide as soon as they hear your terror radius and then you are just wandering around aimlessly, one of the biggest issues on indoor maps is tracking, because hiding is just so good their, there is a million spots to hide and you just don't have the time to search around a generator for that long, and also it is boring af to find hiding survivor s...
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@Malkhrim said:
Other awesome things about indoor maps:
- They are among the best looking maps. Lery's rework was one of the first ones to actually impress players with its great visuals and sounds compared to the ones of its former version. Not to mention Silent Hill, Hawkins and RPD.
- One of the reasons this game is not scary is that you can often see the killer coming from a mile away. Having less information about the killer's wherabouts and room for being surprised and ambushed increases the tension and is more fitting for an horror game. Not to mention the potential jumpscares.
- Indoor maps are the most unique. Outdoor maps have similar lay-outs and loop-patterns, and many of their tiles are the most common ones you see on every other map. Meanwhile, indoor maps have the most unique lay-outs and loops.
1. How it looks is not as important as how it plays, if they feel terrible to play they are terrible no matter how good they look.
2. The game stops to be scary if you put a lot of hours into it because you basically know what can await you in match, a jump scare is not scary at all it is just a cheap trick if you are unable to integrate real horror elements, same goes for horror movies if jump scares are your most used elements there it is just not a good horror movie, they are really annoying
3. To some degree yes, but then again the loops mostly don't play good gameplay whise, so what does it matter? Play on the game and you have 20 God pallets, play on midwich and you have the hold w corridors until you eventually need to go into a room to loop, most of those loops in the rooms are basically similar to the high rock loops many maps have so it is not even that unique either, sure some of them have several floors but that is in issue on itself...
I see none of those as benefits and I would take the most generic looking outdoor map over the best looking most innovative indoor map.
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@Seraphor said:
9 seconds isn't a lot on most killers.
It is however quite a lot on high mobility killers like Billy, Blight, Wesker and Nurse.
So in general, yeah it's not massively OP. But it could benefit from one particular nerf; it only reveals auras more than 48 meters away.
This should be just enough that it shows the auras of all survivors upon spawning, but killers who can close that gap very quickly immediately after the game begins, will reduce the time they see survivors.
I don't think it would be to be honest, I think the perk is fine the way it is, especially since it only activates at the beginning of the game. The Aura reading runs out before Nurse reaches you for sure, same for Wesker, Blight and billy might be able to reach? Blight more likely than billy to be honest.
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@coco_shotz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3524326#Comment_3524326
I was referring to maps as a whole and not just that one with one particular problem.
Well I was just reffering to such things to occur, but hugging a loop really is not that thard so I don't think it is a good plan to try to make that harder, because more often than not it will hurt the killer far more than the survivor, not only when it comes to using the power around the loop but also when it comes to just following, since killers have bigger hitboxes, so either it is an unintended error or just bad design.
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@EternalHails said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3524472#Comment_3524472
friend, she already has a significant flaw embedded in her ability - she does not see survivors, even more, with some addons she does not even see red crack marks.😉
Which basically means nothing when you get good at her, good spirit players also don't use the scratch marks to track but sound of survivors and ocjects moving for example grass.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3524447#Comment_3524447
by the time you catch-up as 110% m/s around loops, your ability has already recharged. going around loops just wastes your time as spirit while your waiting for the ability to comeback.
And you either get a hit or your power is back and then you get the hit? I don't see an issue there?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3524411#Comment_3524411
are you saying that for conventional purposes? deathslinger is 110% m/s with 32 meter tr. spirit can be 115% with 24 tr. she can be m1 killer when her power is on cooldown.
And he is also a ranged killer without a lullyby, so already kind of the exception.
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@thisislastyearsmodel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3524220#Comment_3524220
Shoot, I'd argue that yellows are her best. Movement speed during phase and charge speed are insanely powerful together.
By charge speed are you referring to the worse version of the green flute?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3524077#Comment_3524077
look like all survivors are upset about your proposed buff. I suggest different buff. Make spirit 115% m/s. Now you will feel less powerless when your ability is on cooldown.
I play mostly killer and I still think it is not a good idea to buff spirit, and if you make her 115% you might need to give her a bigger terror radius as well. Also I hate this kind of mentality to discredit someones opinion because they are a survivor or killer, an idea is not less good or bad just because you play survivor or killer, also basically everyone plays both.
Managing the phasing is kind of ressource management if you waste it, it is your fault and you need to deal with that.
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3524266#Comment_3524266
Try him with a controller 🎮
P A I N
controller is hard mode anyways on many killers it seems ^^
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@coco_shotz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3524215#Comment_3524215
While it's certainly believable that they simply messed up with the design, I also feel like they wanna make it harder to hug the loops since that is a common strat
The branch only has colision for the chainsaw or when you try to lunge attack through it, you can walk through it as killer and as survivor... I guess you haven't encountered it yourself otherwise you'd know...
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@KaTo1337 said:
Maybe there are some reasons that this is the first killer I have ever seen that has laughable 42%(!!!) Killrate on Nightlight.
Yeah he is hard to play and some maps are really rough on him... I could imagine that Nurse used to be similar.
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@Unfunny_Clown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3524241#Comment_3524241
yeah maybe rework it into smth entirely new which isn't busted idk,,cuz atm that adddons is actually hurting you :P
I would not go that far, it still gives you a huge amount of duration... But I agree that you cannot easily neglect the ms reduction, with mdr together it is still quite good, just not as busted as it was.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3524225#Comment_3524225
Yes. Spirit was bugged several times and those bugs affected both sides. Like I absolutely hated that one bug where survivors became invisible even outside of phasing until you started to phase again - that one was also miserable. But these things should go to bug reporting sections - or if you want to make it feedback section - complain about QA of "spirit-development team".
I didn't encounter that bug, but yeah sounds awful XD
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@Unfunny_Clown said:
While i do not really think she needs any buffs atm her purple amulet addon is indeed for a buff or rework,,, it's actually detrimental for you
Maybe, but I don't think she needs another busted addon, her green recharge one got buffed and her yellow ones are still great, so aslong as those addons are alright I don't think the amulet should be a priority for buff/rework.
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I agree however that audio is often a problem in this game, I've had a bug a few times now where survivors just didn't make any sound, not even when they hit, that was a miserable spirit game, still won, because I can still see grass moving and stuff but it was not fun, that's like a more general problem, it just effects spirit a lot.
@ProudRinMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3524071#Comment_3524071
Not necessarily but in my case I’m confident that i’m pretty good with Spirit. I won’t be gaslit into thinking that i’m doing something wrong with Spirit when the problem lies with the constant nerfs to her and sound bugs. 🤷🏼♀️
But besides that Spirit is still really good and it does not need too much to perform decent with her, so if you have spend the last 4 years playing spirit you shouldn't have any issue winning the vast majority of matches with her, I always play her from time to time, not a lot but even I win like 85% of the matches. If you are good on basically every killer you will the vast majority of your matches, it is not necessarily that you've mastered the killer but that matchmaking is rather bad, therefore if you're struggling to win matches just because her duration does not give her recharge anymore then I'm sorry, but that's a skill issue.
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@ProudRinMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3524075#Comment_3524075
I don’t think reducing her movement speed is a good idea as it’s already slow as it is. Look at the speed debuff the purple amulet gives, it makes Spirit really really bad. We’re trying to make her 176% more viabke and usefu.
but thanks for your input :)
P.S: remember that Spirit has a constant pinpoint accurate directional phasing noise and really good survivors rarely if at all fall for the “ go one way then quickly go the other way “ method.
If Spirit’s directional phasing noise was made omnidirectional or ( silent , this one could be an iri and would only work in the terror radius ) , i wouldn’t be asking for any of this as that change alone makes her a threat because she’d be truly unpredictable.
Yeah and then it would be the same garbage guessing game it was before where even comp players admitted that all you could do was just drop pallets and make her guess, it was miserable and boring to go against that.
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@ProudRinMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3523999#Comment_3523999
Who are you to tell me how to play Spirit when i’ve been playing her exclusively since late 2019? This isn’t a case of me playing bad, it’s just Spirit doesn’t have enough to keep up with all the nerfs and compensation she didn’t get in return.
That's just straight up wrong, she is a top tier killer and just like Nurse or Blight if you are good with her you should win the vast majority of your matches. If you only used yellow addons until now she got slightly worse because duration no longer gives recovery, and her basekit didn't change at all, there is still Hens333 video of the spirit showcase and the first game without addons would be still the same as it is now.
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@ProudRinMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3524040#Comment_3524040
Why aren’t you acknowledging how bad the 25 second cooldown is or the 15 second cooldown when half of the power bar is used?
Because that's just how it works? And was intended to work from the beginning? The more you use of her power the longer the cooldown, so you should not overuse it, but in small bursts.
@ProudRinMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3524027#Comment_3524027
The 176% doesn’t mean anything when survivors just keep holding forward not to mention you have to account for the hit recovery time as well as the headstart a survivor gets when they are hit AND the activation part of her power. You’re over exaggerating her strengths, she is no where near as good as she once was.
Which is why you don't use her power to necessarily catch up but to get a hit in a loop. You making this look like she is a mid tier killer, she is still the 3rd best killer by far. Yes you might need to run recovery together with speed or duration but she is still very good.
@ProudRinMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3524024#Comment_3524024
It’s absurd how pinpoint accurate the directional phasing noise is for survivors and bug-free whereas Spirit has to listen unbelievably hard just to be able to hear the quietest noises…
And still very good spirits have no problems to exactly hear where the survivors are and just hit them without anything they can basically do.
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@coco_shotz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3524042#Comment_3524042
There are times when I feel they intended on having alot of collision for some maps
Come on man you cannot tell me they intended for the hitbox to be wider than the model or than some small branches actually have collision and make it stop your chainsaw, like that small branch in the yamaoka house for example, I think they just messed up, if not it is just bad design.
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@coco_shotz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3523500#Comment_3523500
Tbf when they reworked that map the singularity wasn't out yet so maybe they came up with his concept after they already did the rework
Yeah but the map also be a me worse for many other killers, that many line of sight blockers hurt a lot of them, I think the collision is also rather bad, not garden of joy or eyrie levels of bad but pretty meh.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3524027#Comment_3524027
TBF her yakuyoke amulet does not make sense now and is weaker then her yellow duration addon. That's the only part I agree with OP should get buff (or rework - just make it something useful).
But does that have a priority? Hell no. Check like all Pyramidhead's addons before you look at violet amulet
As far as I am aware the amulet basically only got used with mdr, but yeah I agree that combined they only give the ms of the yellow addons but an additional 3.5 seconds duration, which is quite a lot considering her next best addons gives only 1 second as far as I am aware.
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@ProudRinMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3523950#Comment_3523950
I don’t agree in the slightest. She needs those changes to be able to keep up in chase and overall map pressure. They’ve taken so much from her that i what I’m proposing is the least she could get. I suggested some QOL changes a while back but even then people got mad and said that’d she didn’t need them. It’s honestly more of a personal issue they’ve got with Spirit as a whole rather than her being the problem but that’s just my opinion.
She is the 3rd strongest killer in the game, she needs nothing to keep up in chase, she moves at 176% ms without addons, even if survivors know where she is she can just force them around the loop one way and then change directions and catch them before they reach the pallet or the vault, when using her power in chase the duration/recovery really didn't add much to how fast she would get the hit at a tile but only how long she had to wait after that.
As for the map pressure, she gets downs really fast, that's more than enough, there is no reason to give her blights map traversal or something else ridiculous like that.
They have nerfed MDR + Amulet because it was completely broken to the point of being probably one of the top 3-5 strongest addons in the game, there is no reason to get anything for nerfing such a absurdly broken addon, despite the nerf she is still the 3rd best killer in the game, so why would we need to give her anything?
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@ProudRinMain said:
Can you consider making Spirit’s default 15 second cooldown to a 10 second cooldown? Basically the current Rusty flute and Rin’s broken watch combined. Also it would be nice if duration add-ons would incur the proposed 10 second cooldown regardless of how long they let Spirit be in her power. This change would make her 176% movement speed more impactful as she would recover her power quicker than before and pairing it with duration add-ons would give her better map presence. It would also be nice if the brown duration add-on were added to her basekit seeing as it would pair really well with the overall less recovery time and making the 176% more useful since being inside her power would take longer and not just 5 seconds. Besides, i don’t see this causing issues, the survivors already know when and where spirit is phasing with the loud pinpoint accurate directional audio that’s so not vague like you claimed, it’s hilariously easy to track might as well make Spirit visible but oh well
P.S, The Yakuyoke amulet absolutely needs a buff now either by removing the speed debuff or making the cooldown take 10 seconds instead of the painfully long 25 seconds or just rework it into something else entirely that’s useful.
I think she is fine as she is, she does not need any buffs. I would agree if you had some quality of life changes, but not when you propose just straight up buffs...
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@MB666 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3523499#Comment_3523499
"I mean sure, but slugging people until they bleed out is not really a nurse problem"
Her power allows her to ignore loops and also slug more efficiently meaning that your only option against her is holding W to avoid joining to the slug fest or try to do insane LOS tricks and calling that a counterplay because there is no other way to survive against her if shes playing like that. (because BHVR refuses to rework/nerf her power even when she keeps being S tier after so many years)
-no reliable counterplay + slugging + small map + infectious in on play + teammates not having UB = the worst match ever
any good nurse knows that slugging as her is really easier when bringing infectious to the point where is just unfair to the other side.
As for the worst match ever part, I like going against Nurse, and even if it was some comp player demolishing me it is still more fun than 1 h of skull merchant... At least matches against good nurses dont take long, and mediocre ones can be looped so it is kind of ok.
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@MB666 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3523499#Comment_3523499
"I mean sure, but slugging people until they bleed out is not really a nurse problem"
Her power allows her to ignore loops and also slug more efficiently meaning that your only option against her is holding W to avoid joining to the slug fest or try to do insane LOS tricks and calling that a counterplay because there is no other way to survive against her if shes playing like that. (because BHVR refuses to rework/nerf her power even when she keeps being S tier after so many years)
-no reliable counterplay + slugging + small map + infectious in on play + teammates not having UB = the worst match ever
any good nurse knows that slugging as her is really easier when bringing infectious to the point where is just unfair to the other side.
My man she has reliable counterplay in the line of sight blocking. But if you mean by "reliable" do x and she can't get you then ofc not, but that is also quite terrible design for a killer if it is just a simple action that always works. It is similar to how really good survivors play against m1 killers, with leaving the loop, doubling back, walk to not leave scratch marks and get out of sight and so on, all those things can work, but they don't necessarily work every single time, just like Nurses counterplay does not work every single time. If you watch really good players playing against nurse you will see that they do not only hold w...
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3523639#Comment_3523639
I agree with your post. mechanics like xeno turrets, nemesis vaccines and singularity EMP look like they're designed to remove any challenge from escaping the killer. I particular dislike xeno turrets and nemesis vaccines as a mechanics because they add little killer gameplay and only serve to make those killers weaker. singularity infection has potencial to be something useful for the killer with extra overclock duration per infected survivor but it is way too hard to keep multiple survivors infected compare to the input it takes for survivor to remove infection. hard to apply, easy to remove. it should be easy to apply, easy to remove so that there is some dynamic gameplay going on.
I think about Nemi the Devs even said that he was too strong without the 3rd health state or something along those lines?
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Well then I guess I just disagree on that, completely fine with that. I don't think it matters how the word is used... I can call you a potato or a flower all day long and I don't see any reason to get insulted over it. It is just not what the word means.
Well then you might wanna read about other languages, try spanish maybe ^^ There are many others as well. I mean you somehow did compare them but whatever.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3523598#Comment_3523598
how you deliver the message is potentially what makes it toxic.
calling people names is toxic behaviour. even if you individually don't mean it that way, doesn't mean other people using the same word aren't.
depends on the name, is it descriptive? Not toxic then... As wel all know Milly is basically M1 Billy which is fairly accurate if it is used like that.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3523503#Comment_3523503
"I wouldn't even necessarily call it toxicity,"
*proceeds to describe toxicity and toxic behaviour...
the quality of being very harmful or unpleasant in a pervasive or insidious way
Toxic behavior definition refers to a person whose behavior and ongoing actions cause harm to other people by physical or mental means. These are the people who spread negative or toxic stress or traumas on others behavior.
ok then...
Ok so would it still be toxic if he was constantly told that he maybe should use the chainsaw more in chase because otherwise he is only playing M1 Billy? I don't think it changes the message overall. If you get called a Milly that is mostly because you don't use the killers power, is it toxic to get called out on it? No why would it be? Would be the same thing if you called it toxic if someone hides the entire game in bushes to call them a blendette, which isn't toxic either.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3523533#Comment_3523533
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3523535#Comment_3523535
Interesting they were teaching this as a good method a little as two years ago. When I was at uni (many moons ago) it was considered out dated. Take your cigarette example. Shaming usually doesn't reduce people throwing their butt on the ground. It usually leads them to them throwing it on the ground when they think no one is looking.
Anyway, I don't want to derail the OP's post any further.
Just let people play how they want to play.
As for the "let people play how they want to", I don't agree on that, there are certain playstyles that are just not necessary and should be avoided and we as the community should try our best to somehow eradicate such behavior. Sure there is no law against bleeding people out on the floor, but is it something we as the community want in the game? Or are we trying to outlaw it, and this basically goes for everything you can do but some people don't like. Basically the same social control I talked about above, we decide that we do not want certain behavior and therefore we are taking measures to prevent it, eg call people out on it.
Guess it just does not work as well in the internet as in real life...
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3523533#Comment_3523533
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3523535#Comment_3523535
Interesting they were teaching this as a good method a little as two years ago. When I was at uni (many moons ago) it was considered out dated. Take your cigarette example. Shaming usually doesn't reduce people throwing their butt on the ground. It usually leads them to them throwing it on the ground when they think no one is looking.
Anyway, I don't want to derail the OP's post any further.
Just let people play how they want to play.
I would say it depends on the person what exactly their reaction is, maybe they will do it when nobody is watching, maybe they will do what they were asked, maybe out of spite they will just continue doing it in sight.
The labeling approach itself only explains why people continue doing the unwanted behavior. Also I would like to add that no theory is complete in criminology but only gives you some reason why people might act a certain way.
On the other hand social control is a thing that happens every day in many part of society and works for sure in most parts. Think of certain rules that are not the law but being treated as such where people will get called out on not behaving that way. For example smoking in public in front children,hard to do that when nobody is watching.
Or even in specific communities when parents teach their children certain things, family is also a social structure in which social control is applied. And like I said before social control is a good thing as it allows a community to outlaw certain unwanted behavior. For example when we as the dbd community don't want people to be bled out for no reason we do the same thing.
The Billy example in the beginning is a bit different in the sense that is based on perspective what you make of it. I would say when you call someone a Milly you want them to use the chainsaw more because it provides funnier gameplay, you could also see it as shaming them for missing skill.
I would see it is the first, but that might just be pma ^^
As for outdated theorys, as far as I'm aware my professor used to say that certain theories are older and may be doubted these days but they still provide some insight into why crime/delinquency is committed. And since a theory that explains it all in detail doesn't exist we should not neglect older theories just because they are old.
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@thisislastyearsmodel said:
I tried this the other night just to see what it was like, and I felt so dirty. I played three games and 4k-ed each one before more than two gens were even touched, let alone completed.
I played with no add-ons and I'm really not even a good Nurse. I know this is anecdotal evidence, but like... if I can win at 5 gens with her, a good Nurse may as well just be handed the W before she even loads in.
Seems like a matchmaking problem and not necessarily a nurse problem. Because good survivors give mediocre Nurses a run for the money.
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@thisislastyearsmodel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3522979#Comment_3522979
This is my issue with him. Sometimes he feels okay [survivors greeding pallets, for instance, makes him pretty decent in 1v1s] but god, it sucks loading into giant maps as him and losing 2 gens for one hook and then losing another before you can even physically get there to defend it.
They don't even need to greed, you just take pallet control throw a yellow bottle at yourself, a pink one at them, go one way around, then the other way so they loose more distance, if need you throw a pink one at where the yellow was so they don't get a speed boost and you get the hit. It's rather simple. But yeah the no map control parts makes you loose gens fast, but that's quite usual in the early game to loose a Gen fast.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3523503#Comment_3523503
It's pretty outdated thinking. Research tends to show us that stigmatizing is not an effective tool to change behaviors.
Anyway, it's nothing to do wit the questions at hand.
The whole reason some cases with minors go to court is because the calling out of this unwanted behavior by the judge has an effect on the person and sometimes that is all that's needed to change the minor for the better.
I had my criminology course like two years ago in University and I don't think that much changed since then.
There is a thing called labeling approach which you maybe tried to quote here, but that works a bit differently and is more about a person internalizing a certain picture other people have of them. Same example from above with the cigarette, but this time the person doesn't get called for doing it told to not do it, but the other person just says like "bah this guy is a delinquent anyway, obviously he d do something like that", and then the guy internalizes this thinking and might think of himself more like that.
My point in mentioning all this is that calling someone out to be a Milly is not necessarily toxicity but could be a form of social control.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3523503#Comment_3523503
It's pretty outdated thinking. Research tends to show us that stigmatizing is not an effective tool to change behaviors.
Anyway, it's nothing to do wit the questions at hand.
It is not about stigmatizing, but more about calling out unwanted behavior, the same when someone sees a person throwing his cagarette away instead of putting it in the ashtray calling that out is a form of social control same as here. I would not call that outdated thinking.
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Don't get me wrong I do agree that sometimes you need to m1 because you will just get a hit with the saw at some tiles, so there is nothing wrong with that, but to get better a Billy you should try to use the saw at every tile just to figure out what can curve and what not.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
A few things to get out of the way:
- This involves an incredibly small portion of the community; this does not represent the community as a whole.
- While it is a small portion, they are insanely vocal, and I think this topic is 100% worth addressing regardless of the consequences that may follow (such as potential in-game harassment for talking about this).
- I have dealt with this topic personally, Ive dealt with it for years as per being a Billy main; a lot of this is involving my thoughts over the years but also my thoughts on recent events.
Billy is honestly a really unique character, rather it be the core design, their history in the game, their lore, or even how their power fundamental functions in relation to other characters.
There are dozens of little quarks and techs you can learn with Billy that hinder or enhance their gameplay, which leads to Billy being tricky for new players to learn; veterans will often recommend not touching Billy until new players have a very fundamental understanding of the game.
However. My intentions here are not to explore the issues involving the learning curve of Billy. Instead I am addressing one of the hugest things to overcome... toxicity.
How can such a character be surrounded by toxicity?
Well, it mainly has to do with a hold-over from older DBD History, as per most things.
For those unaware, Old Billy was incredibly busted, mainly in regards to certain addons and perks. Old Tinkerer use to increase the effectiveness of Charge Speed Addons for most Killers; when paired with Old Billy's Charge Speed Addons, you could basically use your Chainsaw to down Survivors with minimal effort.
Because of this cheap addon combos, people who ran anything other than these combos were shooting themselves in the foot by doing so, and considering how clunky the game was in general, people who were/werent running these combos would often need to perform a Basic Attack in order to actually deal with Survivors.
And so, the nickname M1lly (or Milly) was born. An act to make fun of people whom may not be skilled enough to M2. An excuse for toxicity. An excuse for harassment.
In 2023, you might know that those addons are gone. In fact, most of Old Billy's addons got gutted over the years. They even got basekit nerfs. And as map designs changed, Billy was also left in the dust, a husk of what they were years prior.
Despite all of this. The nickname still persists, regardless of how difficult Billy is to learn, play, and/or master. And I consider this to be the hardest thing to overcome, is the community's toxicity revolving around when (or even if) a Billy uses their power... If you M1, you get made fun of.
On Twitch, Ive seen streamers harass and attack players just trying to learn the Killer for M1ing instead of using their Chainsaw. Myself, even receiving such harassment, being forced to clear my Steam's -reps or close out of the post-game chat because of visceral comments being hurled my way, even dealing with DDOSing at one point.
One of my friends who is rather new to the game has tried to learn Billy, but gave up when dealing with the toxicity because it was too much for them to handle. Which is why I decided to write this.
To be frank, I dont have a reasonable solution to such, since this can only be fixed by a certain part of the community (that is rather small). There is one thing though. Maybe we can be a bit more positive?
If you see someone struggling, doesnt matter if it is Billy or some other Killer or Survivor or anything, just give a word of encouragement. Be kind to your fellow gamers.
No offense my man but how is dealing with shittalking children on the Internet harder than learning the hardest killer in the game? XD
I wouldn't even necessarily call it toxicity, it is more some sort of shaming for, in their mind missing skill I playing the killer, and shaming is a form of social control to get rid of some forms of behavior seen as unhealthy or unwanted. Generally speaking shaming is a good thing in the sense that it has a big impact on prevention of anti social behavior, and in criminology it is sometimes used to explain why certain neighborhoods stay saver than others.
So in summon the shaming people as Milly's might lead more often than not, at least that's what some criminological studies on different subjects, but also unwanted behavior, show us, to people not continuing to do said behavior.
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When designing addons they should just stop to have multiple with the same effect, first of all it is boring and second the stacking might lead to unintended effects, there are so many fun things you could do with addons and what do we get mostly? "Mangled and Haemorrage" woweeeee that's Sooooo good...