Anti051
Anti051
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When I run SM, I notice that not a lot of people bother to use the perks available to combat a 3-gen strat.
The people who have been breaking through it have used 'Deja Vu,' 'Potential Energy,' 'Hyperfocus/Stakeout,' and saved stacked toolboxes for the end.
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@Trev1979 said:
I would like to see your "objective" evidence please? I assume you know that objective can be proven with data and facts...I will wait, cus frankly the only real data that I have seen come out is the one that says killers have a 60% kill rate, and that number is...flawed for a number of reasons.
Ever notice how they DO NOT show the full statistics?
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@Grum said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3367860#Comment_3367860
It's the meta because it's the only fun exhaustion perk.
It's also not very good and if you're getting outplayed by it, it's your own fault.
Yeah, being able to pardon yourself from losing the contest at the tap of a button is just so cool, man...
Wish I could tap a button and make good survivor plays just straight up not count, sounds like heaven.
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I think it's clear after this many years that every killer needs to be able to do something real when chasing.
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Wish the devs would just speak with whomever needs to be spoken to about how the game needs a break from the development schedule for readjustment and a massive bug bash. They wouldn't need to "breathe new life" into the game with fresh content every 3 months to renew interest if the game was just more functional and fun to play in general.
I'm not the only one who doesn't make extracurricular purchases because of how mid the gameplay quality is.
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With seasoned players, the primary problem with dead hard atm is that it can pardon you from losing at the most basic aspect of the PvP interaction (looping). If you've been outplayed in the loop, you can't be allowed to nullify all the work the killer had to do to outplay and catch you with nothing but pressing a single button on time.
I support the OP's #3 option.
As for the Nurse and Blight kits, those need actual (not pretend) nerfs.
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Actually the problem is entirely the skull merchant,
I mean what exactly does anybody expect when she has no chase power and only detection/territory threat?
If you leave your triangle to go on an M1 chase, you're screwed because of how safe maps are against M1 killers.
She has to be able to do something real in-chase and being a master at Em-Wun Fu isn't going to cut it.
@Emeal said:
This is why I run Deja Vu as Survivor.
For real, Deja Vu is an anti 3-gen perk.
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Honest Trailer:
- Guards a 3-gen.
- Can do nothing but M1 in chase so you constantly have to break chase...
- 30 - 40 minute matches inside a triangle, working your ass off for nothing.
- Radar is cool, but ultimately just a gimmick since you can't do anything real in chase.
- Practically useless against seasoned survivors.
- Great if you like being disappointed.
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The idea is to nerf gen speed to make way for nerfs to tunneling,
Part 1: Gut every perk, item and add-on that has to do with both speed up/slow down (So there is time to have more chases & matches cannot be too long or short).
Part 2: Mechanically restrict tunneling and camping until EGC (Since the killer will not NEED to do these things in order to prevent or counteract a "gen rush").
Part 3: Incentivize going for hooks with some version of base-kit Dying Light and awarding considerably greater amounts of BP for fresher hooks.
Part 4: Alter generator placement so that tight 3-gens cannot spawn.
Part 5: ______________________________________________(Brainstorm Time)
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@Phenomenal_Ox said:
I mean you could say the same thing about nurse despite the "nerfs" or "reworks" she is still the strongest killer in the game by far and she is older then dead hard, so should they nerf her to the ground because she stayed on the top for too long ?
Yes,
You can't just be permitted to ignore all game mechanics whenever you want with Spencer's Last Breath because with enough practice, a Nurse player can all but eliminate the contest, which is bogus (she ought to work like the Oni).
Similar to how Blight needs an add-on pass because 'alc ring/tag' is bogus.
Also similar to how 'Dead Hard' can't be any iteration of 'Press E to ignore results of mind-games.'
All these things are effing bogus, my friends.
So it's probably a good idea to start mopping up ANYTHING that can eliminate and/or nullify the intercourse of fair contest. I mean are we trying to have DbD be an actual game or do we just want to take turns slapping each other with overpowered ######### like jackasses?
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@Phasmamain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3364645#Comment_3364645
Countering perks is a part of normal gameplay and most certainly won’t go away if DH is killed
For killers you’ll still have to counter SB (Which you can’t if it’s used effectively) and other exhaustion perks
For survivor they’ve had to counter totem builds (Ruindying) and PR DMS almost every game when they were the respective meta for killers. Even further back they had to play around spirit fury enduring when that was more popular or even getting into a locker/behind a gen vs BBQ
DH is annoying yes but it’s alternatives aren’t much more fun
Actually, the alternatives are infinitely more fun to play against because they require fair setup & don't allow for the survivor to nullify literally any mind-game the killer tries...
The core aspect of Dead by Daylight's gameplay is based on mind-games. It's completely outside the scope of reason to expect people to not feel utterly cheated and flat out pissed off when they outplay a survivor at the core aspect of the game, but then still lose the chase just because the survivor pressed a single button on time.
Frankly, 'Dead Hard' is the same dumb bullshit as 'Armor Lock' was in 'Halo: Reach' and if Bungie couldn't make that nonsense fly then idk what makes BHVR think they can.
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@Foxy_Teltac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3364479#Comment_3364479
People will use meta loadouts and become surprised when strong killers are picked often. Man this community's gotten picky. (Killers are too, literally sacrificing a perk slot on some killers can almost entirely eliminate Dead Hard from some chases and they still want it nerfed)
Just wish we could enjoy things
Weird indeed how people don't like it when they perform a good play and it just doesn't count for the sake of the other side having "fun."
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Now that I think about it,
If killers basically can't do anything at a god loop, and survivors basically can't do anything at a short loop, isn't that like taking turns winning? Is that even technically a game?
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More strict mechanics to control tunneling and camping can work, but only if gens cannot be completed fast af.
Allow more time to go for hooks AND mechanically restrict tunneling, camping + slugging. I'd bet money the game feels a lot less crappy after that.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3361501#Comment_3361501
You said it's not possible. I say it's very much possible. What actually is not possible is to win 50 winstreak (something he does on most killers) in soloQ. Even best survivor mains are not able to do that (e.g. Ayrun is trying that for years now and 34 is his long-time maximum). That about sums up the balance of this game.
Yikes, you're right, that is actually pretty unbalanced for the asymmetry of the game. If 50-win streaks go down with top end killer players, then top end survivor players should really only be getting around 12.5-win-streaks in SoloQ.
It's almost like survivors are able to finish generators so fast that most of the killer roster is required to make an early jump to desperation tactics that everybody hates, tactics like tunneling, camping and slugging.
Now here we are in this thread, where another survivor main is trying to suggest something that would intensify desperation tactics and result in an even worse gameplay experience? I don't think so.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3361411#Comment_3361411
Coordinated SWFs would use that to take turns bodyblocking for each other. We shouldn't encourage perks that are ok in solo, but become super obnoxious in coordinated SWFs.
Would be a lot better than 'press E to escape anything.'
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In essence, a good killer kit has to have a skill-based power that is designed for chases (the most fun part of the game). If the killer kit is gimmicky and not a chase-based power, the killer will be very boring to play as and against.
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Sounds like somebody wants hard slugging to intensify.
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The perk's identity is that it's literally an I-win-button with extra steps.
It came about because of how afraid the devs were of adding the first ranged killer to the roster (Huntress).
The perk does not need to keep it's bogus identity, it needs to change fundamentally.
I forget whom, but somebody had a cool idea for DH - On taking a protection hit, DH activates and grants a speed burst to any nearby survivors. It even matches the flavor text of the perk,
"We were walkin' through t'ginnel one night when a beer bottle flew past me, then another, and another.
I thought to myself "Gonna 'ave some fun 'ere lads, let's get stuck in!".
It were a right dust up, I swear down!" — David King
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3360886#Comment_3360886
the point of any game is to play it, not to win it lmao some games you just design a nice town or socialise, it's very subjective. The goal of a game is to get entertainment. DBD's win condition to determine skill was never the original intent because a win is so subjective....
Eating is more comparable to playing.
Exactly, 'playing' a game means that you try to do your best at whatever the parameters/rules of the game are. If the process of playing out the game's parameters/rules is well-designed, then it's likely that most matches will be entertaining. Just like if food is well-made then you'll probably enjoy 'eating' it more often than not.
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@Technature said:
People who play the game to win instead of just having fun is a community problem, not a problem with the game itself.
The point of any game is to try to win it. Fun is a byproduct of a well-crafted game.
Frankly it's just weird to postulate that people should not try to win at a game.
The point of food is to eat it. If it's made well, you'll probably enjoy it.
The point of a beverage is to drink it. If it's made well, you'll probably enjoy it.
The point of a game is to try to win it. If it's made well, you'll probably have fun.
It's starting to feel like a lot of people who play DbD don't actually understand what a game is in the first place. PvP games are a contest by nature, the whole concept is to try to outplay the other player. If you're expecting PvP games to act like some kind of vending machine spitting out personalized packages of fun every time, then you might actually have a better experience playing single-player rather than PvP titles.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359415#Comment_3359415
This was tried in patch 6.1. Your theory was proven to be absolutely wrong. The only way how to deter tunneling is to not making it most rewarding, easiest and consistent thing to do in the game with least risks (aka no risk considering current state of DS) associated with it. That's it.
As in increase the intensity of the anti-tunnel mechanics so much that the killer physically can't do it until EGC. A restriction like this is fine if and only if there actually is a respectable and reliable amount of time to conduct chases during the trial before gens hit 100%.
Tunneling, camping and hard slugging alike are events that ultimately happen because the generators can be done fast. Over time, players learn that if the killer does not create some kind of situation to jam up the gen progress, they will lose.
One good path forward is to take steps to insure that matches cannot end cartoonishly fast so there actually is time to "just be good." Overlay this with very strict anti-tunnel/camp/slug mechanics and further nerfs to gen-slow...Now the only thing for a killer to do is get good at earning hooks and conducting themselves in a more "healthy" manner.
I hope that's a better job at painting that picture
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To be perfectly honest,
I only play/care about DbD because I stream it and nobody wants to watch anything else.
I'm sincerely hoping that whomever is at the helm now can start to correct for all the insane damage Patrick did to this project.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359149#Comment_3359149
I can’t stand the lingered break out. Like I break line of sight and it still has a lingering break out. It’s way too generous on the survivor side for breaking him out. Also the flapping sound so they can hear me coming even though he’s a stealth killer. Those things annoy me about him.
Yeah, the reveal progress should reset if the survivor breaks their gaze on GF (it's nothing but 1.5 seconds) and the billowing cloak noises should not be part of the kit.
Also, stalk meters should reset on a down, but not an injury because the whole "you can do nothing in chase" aspect is pretty bogus in 2023.
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Best way to address tunneling is make it so it isn't necessary. You do that by making it so that gens can't be completed faster than greased lightning. After that you implement more strict base kit anti-tunnel mechanics.
I always see people talking about punishing the symptom instead of treating the cause.
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@KatyAlex said:
Or you could just bait the hit
No, you can't bait the hit when you have to win a mind game just to get the distance to try to land a maximum distance lunge before the pallet drop.
This is not hard to comprehend.
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Make sure he is half way between the center and top of the screen.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358658#Comment_3358658
Trapper excels in 3-gens, these Survivors are evidently playing to their strengths, so should OP.
What does that have to do with dead hard in loops?
Being able to pardon yourself from losing the core aspect of the pvp interaction is not 'playing to a strength,' it's an unfair contingency for when you've been outplayed by the killer.
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@Pulsar said:
I doubt you could NOTHING about it.
It's a read. You really shouldn't be in that position so often, I'd say switch up your more macro-level play in order to help.
Nah, he is correct.
Trapper is an M1 killer and highly subject to the lose/lose @ pallets against DH.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358035#Comment_3358035
Isn't knowing when to time your half second immunity not a mindgame in itself? Isn't baiting out the Dead Hard a mindgame?
Not if the survivor has already lost the core aspect of the game.
How cool would it be if Killers had a perk called 'Sure Strike' and could press E 0.5 seconds before a pallet stun and make the survivor take damage anyway even though the survivor won the mind game? Then if the survivor just waits it out, the killer steps through the pallet, body blocks them and hits them that way too?
It would be lambasted as complete, unskilled, game-breaking bs.
The Survivor version of 'Sure Strike' is 'Dead Hard.'
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If the other kits didn't suck, you might see more killer variety.
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The Chase is the direct pvp part of the game, right?
Looping becomes the core aspect of the pvp interaction.
The contest in looping is played based on mind-games.
Whomever outplays the other at the mind-game either avoids a hit or lands one.
Is it not true that 'Dead Hard' virtually grants the ability to remove yourself from the core aspect of the pvp interaction?
Does it really make sense in an activity based on mind games, that in exchange for a half second of timing, you are immune to mind-games?
Does 'Dead Hard' in the current form not break the game at an elementary level?
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Some version of 'Dying Light' at base kit could incentivize hooking and would naturally create more time for chases.
Substantially increase points for hooking & add more hook-based tome content.
Nerfing all gen slow & speed elements could also help provide more time for chases.
With more time for chases to take place, more strict anti tunnel/camp/slug mechanics would be fine to introduce.
This might allow for a clearly desirable pathway for killers as well as boundaries against tunneling/camping/slugging that could lead to matches feeling more fair, not to mention, give us more opportunity to enjoy the most fun part of the game.
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Long, clean screams with a hook through the chest cavity doesn't make sense in the first place, makes even less sense after this tbh
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@[Deleted User] said:
dead is one of the most fun and hardest perks to use god are you all not
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352460#Comment_3352460
Exactly these tru fan boys who only play killer are so loud it's wild. DH is one of the most balanced perks in the game, and has such a high skill window. Other exhaustion perks are more reliable and just better, but dh Is fun to try and use. That's why people love it.
Ummm,
I'm pretty sure people love 'Dead Hard' now for the same reasons they loved it before, mainly being a free pass on losing the mind game and going against Nurse (still too strong).
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@BenOfMilam said:
Dead Hard is probably the only exhaustion perk that legitimately feels unfair to go against.
If I see a survivor boost away with Sprint Burst, Balanced, or Lithe I'm like "aight, that's fair." But swinging into a Dead Hard always feels like I got cheated out of a victory in a chase.
...not that I actually have too much trouble with the perk in general. The mind-games around baiting it out can be fun, but doing it like ten to twelve times a game makes me really hate going against Dead Hard.
There's actually nothing you can do to make Dead Hard more fair or balanced, short of complete redesign. The concept of "you can parry a hit / become invincible for half a second" in a game where you fighting tooth and nail for something as meager as half a meter of distance is simply too strong.
Honestly? Dead Hard should give your allies a speed boost when you take a protection hit. It fits thematically, and would still be a strong perk.
Honestly? Dead Hard should give your allies a speed boost when you take a protection hit. It fits thematically, and would still be a strong perk.
Spot on.
"We were walkin' through t'ginnel one night when a beer bottle flew past me, then another, and another.
I thought to myself "Gonna 'ave some fun 'ere lads, let's get stuck in!".
It were a right dust up, I swear down!" — David King
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352598#Comment_3352598
If I didn't make myself clear before, I apologize for the confusion. I meant waiting for the DH to come (hyperbolically baiting it out) not waiting until you see the survivor use it as that doesn't work all that great either. Many people don't fall for that and simply wait with the DH themselves. Going for the hit immediately is risky against survivors that don't wait and useless against survivors that can literally react to your attack.
You pointed out Wraith, who to be fair would catch a majority of survivors off guard, however he does give the survivor a very audible sound clue first when he fully uncloaks and again when he swings his weapon. You can use this sound to time the DH. Looking up and down doesn't cause a sound, so you only catch people that as you said are "twitchy". These aren't the problem. They don't get value out of DH because the killer gets it out of the way first. Again, these people shouldn't be too unhappy with DH getting stomped or reworked to do something entirely different because they don't really lose anything.
The reason why baiting out the DH doesn't work that well is because there is an audible indicator for most killers for when they actually attack. Billy will roar, Huntress and Wesker will grunt etc. For the killers that don't have the audible clue it's still easy to see when the actual attack animation begins for example Demogorgon. You can make an argument that the survivor did something skilled and should be rewarded for it and you wouldn't be necessarily wrong. However, if someone can guarantee themself a third health state every chase this becomes a problem because most killers don't have the time to deal with that. And that is disregarding the fact that the killer did something skilled as well to even get into the position where they can hit the survivor. The perk DH by nature just isn't healthy. I get that it's fun to use but a third health state per chase is impossible to balance. Some people will fail at using it and only be a annoying because they force the killer to wait when the chase should actually be over. Others guarantee a successful DH. For which one do you want to balance? Option is what we have now. Hoping that survivors aren't that good with it and will mostly fail so the killer only loses a few extra seconds baiting it out. A killer stacked with full regression perks can probably deal with it for the most part. But otherwise this still puts the killer behind schedule and we're currently seeing how well that goes. Option 2 is balancing for 3 health states per chase. This isn't something I'd like to see either because then running and hitting DH becomes mandatory.
The point about NOED is, that it got nerfed considerably to where people don't use it anymore (seriously, I haven't seen a single NOED in months). And I'm not unhappy about that. They solved the major issues this perk had:
- 1) The community hated it.
- 2) The perk was overused.
Both of these are true for current DH as well. That's why something needs to be done (besides the balancing issues I pointed out earlier).
I mentioned it above but I'll repeat: DH can never be healthy a perk by nature as long as they don't completely change its very core. That is extending the chase when it should be over or forcing the killer to run after the survivor like an idiot and hope they'll mess up, which is still horrible because of how boring and stupid that feels.
Which brings me to the next argument: "Hoping the other side messes up is not actual counterplay." We had the same issue with Nurse and had to explain over and over again why breaking LoS against her was hardly sufficient to balance out her power at the time. Nurse got nerfed as well and I am not unhappy about that either.
The DH nerf was simply not enough and never will be unless they either kill the perk or reimagine it from the ground up. At least one issue will always remain. Wether it's the perk being unreliable, disgusting to face because of how you counter it or DH being too strong. These are all major flaws that no perk as prevalent as DH should ever have.
And that is disregarding the fact that the killer did something skilled as well to even get into the position where they can hit the survivor.
Exactly! Ghostface has been my main for over 2 years now and I can't explain how sick I am of performing a crazy mind game so I can have a SHOT at landing an M1 from maximum lunge distance just for the entire thing to be nullified by the ever-present threat of 'Dead Hard.'
In my case, it's literally like they are excused from losing the mindgame...when mindgames are all I have.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3353526#Comment_3353526
Ouch, yeah being a ghostface main i can understand your points more clearly.
Imo that's more Ghostface desperatly needing some love then a overal game problem but fair.
Legion also is just a m1 killer but atleast they can say no to dead hard a lot of the time
What can I say, It's a mess
You do get nightvision monocular, which can shut off deadhard mid-chase, but that's dependent upon the person you're chasing turning around and revealing you
/shrugs
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3353366#Comment_3353366
You're looking at a .3 second change and assuming that's the entirety of the buff. It's not the whole picture.
Let's look at what the entire 6.1.0 patch did for a standard M1 hit against a survivor. So, no perks involved here in this at all, this is now base kit (current) compared to an identical situation before 6.1.0:
The survivor gets a burst of speed when hit and moves at 6.6 m/s briefly. Before, this was 2.0 seconds for a total of 13.2m, and currently this is 1.8 seconds, for a total of 11.88m. So the survivor gains 1.32m less distance when hit from before. For a standard 4.6m/s killer, it takes 2.2 seconds less time to catch up to the survivor now than before with just this change.
Now, the killer also spends less time 'blade wiping' because of the 6.1 buff. Before, the killer spent 3 seconds moving at 0.46m/s and after 6.1 it's only 2.7 seconds at that speed. So those last .3 seconds are moving at 4.6 instead of 0.46, meaning that, previously, the killer would lose an extra 1.062m of distance on the survivor, but now actually gains distance instead. The net gain is 1.242m, which reduces the time to catch up to the survivor by another 2.02 seconds.
So just those two 'trivial' changes together cut 4.22 seconds off of every chase.
And the best part is that map geometry doesn't factor into this at all. If a survivor can get to a loop in the current game, they would've gotten to it before as well. And if they can't get to a loop currently, they might've with an extra 4.22 seconds previously available before the 6.1 buffs.
Yeah, that 4.22 seconds off sounds alright on paper until you consider how long it still takes to catch people in practice on an M1 killer. It's not palpable unless you have at least 6 STBFL stacks and the force is with you. Just like before 6.1, you'll hit somebody and they're virtually guaranteed distance to the next safety (most of the time with multiple options) unless they run into a dead-zone by mistake or get snagged on something. Only real difference now is it just doesn't feel like it's taking a year to get back into the action. Chances are they're still getting that pallet/window with plenty of leeway...just less leeway now.
So yeah I'd still call those buffs "trivial" for sure. Makes no difference to a lot of the people I go against as a leaderboard ghostface.
Might pull something off with stbfl, pwyf and coup de grace, but I doubt a build like that would hold water in the end.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3353398#Comment_3353398
See I don't think you are in the right though. If the ratio really was 8.3% for killers to 60% for survivors then killers wouldn't be able to win ever
And they do, there are 100s of streamers to prove that
I keep seeing you refer to "defensible gen setup" and i think thats the problem you are facing. You're focussing to much on gens
One of the best advices i got recently was to forget about the gens. It's not the gens that are the problem but the survivors fixing them.
Focus on keeping them busy rather then focussing on defending an area when you are outnumbered
If you down a survivor and see another one near, slug him and chase the other one. The slug can't work on gens, the one you are chasing can't work on gens and somebody who was working on gens has to stop to get the slug up. Two downs is better then one hook
Very often the first person i down is not the first person i hook, and very rarely do i actually lose 3 gens before my first hook that way
When chasing a survivor and you know on which gen the others are working try to zone the chase towards them. They either have to stop working on it or risk you peeling of to them.
Things like that.
I recently started playing Legion without perks and really focussing on chasing and keeping survivors busy and i've been doing way better then i was with full gen slowdown perks. To the point i thought perks were tied to mmr
Well bud, I'm speaking from the POV of a Ghostface main, #4 in the world for exposed downs and #5 for marked downs (dbd.tricky.lol) I have a lot of experience at this point, so I feel like I actually have got a pretty good idea about what's up when I start talking about this weird game.
And yeah,
3 out of 5 is, in fact 60% and no, it doesn't really slowdown very much after that point (especially if they save items for the last 2 gens)
1 out of 12 is, in fact 8.3% and the survivors can/will finish well before you can hook anybody to death.
And at my apparent MMR level, 4-5 minute games are an unfortunate reality.
You're lucky if you can get 3 hooks before everything is over.
You are not going to create an effective dead zone in time, it's over too fast.
You are not going to stop the progression unless there is a tight 3-gen or you can achieve lucky, strategic slugs with knockout and melt gens in the meantime with COB/Overcharge.
If you commit to chases, you typically lose unless the survivor catches their big toe on a corner or dedicated servers decide to express themselves.
You'll mindgame into dead hard all the time because you can only hold W and M1 and the survivor will be too far to wait it out before the pallet drop. A single instance of this can create enough time for you to lose.
I stopped using eruption over a month and a half ago because the trigger kept getting countered by 'dead hard @ pallet' and it would lose the game for me.
Unless the system can't find suitable people for me and I get stuck with lower level folks, the string of events in a typical match is a short list indeed before everybody is slugged or all gens are gone.
Most of my matches are either very frustrating to lose (because of the gen speed/DH nullifying any mindgame), or very exhausting when I win (stalking to expose and chaining slugs as fast as possible with 'GF caught on tape' + Knockout mostly)...frankly it's very binary, there is barely any contest in either case, the fun is minimal and it doesn't feel like any horror movie I've seen.
But my friend, I swear upon our immortal souls, it is not cap when I say
novice - intermediate: speed is fine
expert - master: speed is bogus
( ^ also feel free to substitute "speed" with "deadhard.")
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@ratcoffee said:
OP, you're running a perk that only activates in the endgame and a perk that only activates when the gate is open. it's expected for you to lose a bunch of gens quickly and not perform as well in the beginning of the game, half of your build is tailored to endgame.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3353191#Comment_3353191
comparing progress on generators with 5 gen completions being the end win condition, to hooks on survivors with 12 hooks being the win condition is bad math and bad game sense in a whole lot of ways
-as survivors complete gens, there are less gens to do, meaning the killer has a smaller area to patrol and safeguard
-even once survivors get all the gens done, they still need to open the exit gate and then run out of it. particularly since OP is running 2 endgame perks, it feels silly to miss this fact.
-the killer doesn't need to get 12 individual hooks; they can get a 4k with 1 hook at end game and blood warden.
-when killers get hooks, that forces survivors to stop doing gens to go for a rescue, slowing down the progression of the survivor objective
i had a game not too long ago where i had 2 hooks with 1 gen left using an off-meta build and still managed to 4k without camping or tunneling (first sacrifice was at like 7-8 hooks) because there was a 3 gen in a dead zone; so no safety while working on gens. when i got Evil Incarnate, i gave up 3 gens before getting a single down, but i managed to get all 4 survivors with the mori before any more gens popped (without getting a single hook). if it's BS that survivors can get 3 gens done during one chase, it's also BS i was able to get 80% of my objective done while the survivors struggled to get their last 20%; that i was able to create such a swing after the survivors had completed a full half of their objective (or, we could admit that raw gen percentage vs raw hook state count is a bad metric. also tombstone is a bit broken)
comparing progress on generators with 5 gen completions being the end win condition, to hooks on survivors with 12 hooks being the win condition is bad math and bad game sense in a whole lot of ways
-as survivors complete gens, there are less gens to do, meaning the killer has a smaller area to patrol and safeguard
Only if the killer still has a defensible gen setup.
-even once survivors get all the gens done, they still need to open the exit gate and then run out of it. particularly since OP is running 2 endgame perks, it feels silly to miss this fact.
Right, one endgame perk that is always played around and barely works out and another that might get one exposed down before it's cleansed. The only silly thing here is missing how the OP said that what they were doing was not working out for them.
-the killer doesn't need to get 12 individual hooks; they can get a 4k with 1 hook at end game and blood warden.
That's right, they can.....and barely ever do.
-when killers get hooks, that forces survivors to stop doing gens to go for a rescue, slowing down the progression of the survivor objective
Or they pop 3 gens, wait for you to leave your one hook, use reassurance, then continue cranking on less than 2 gens left with most pallets still up, or worse, they could also save bnp's for the last 2 gens.
i had a game not too long ago where i had 2 hooks with 1 gen left using an off-meta build and still managed to 4k without camping or tunneling (first sacrifice was at like 7-8 hooks) because there was a 3 gen in a dead zone; so no safety while working on gens. when i got Evil Incarnate, i gave up 3 gens before getting a single down, but i managed to get all 4 survivors with the mori before any more gens popped (without getting a single hook). if it's BS that survivors can get 3 gens done during one chase, it's also BS i was able to get 80% of my objective done while the survivors struggled to get their last 20%; that i was able to create such a swing after the survivors had completed a full half of their objective (or, we could admit that raw gen percentage vs raw hook state count is a bad metric. also tombstone is a bit broken)
Exactly, the only reason you could affect change against that group and stop them is because you were fortunate enough to be left with a defensible gen setup for the killer you played (Myers). Had you not had that very defensible 3-gen (and the op addon), I'm not sure things would have turned out the way they did.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3353191#Comment_3353191
That's not really a fair comparison
Something inexperienced players often don't seem to realise that the progression of both sides their objectives is not linear
At the start of the match everything is in favor of survivors.
all pallets are available, everybody is able to hop on gens while the killer spawned on the other side of the map, there are 7 different gens they can contest, etc...
The longer a match goes however the more the favor starts to shift towards the killer.
Survivors need to be picked up/unhooked, less generators become available meaning less for the killer to defend, pallets are broken creating dead zones, survivors need to heal or risk a snowball, etc...
That first 60% of generators may go fast but once the killer gets their pressure ball rolling and the game shifts to their favor then the last 2 gens go a whole lot slower
There is also the flaw in that comparison that survivors need to do 100% of their objective if they want more then one person to leave through the gates, while killers can secure a win way before they have done all their objectives
If the killer spreads his hooks between 2 survivors then by hook 6 only 2 are left. And in the mayority of the cases those 2 don't stand a chance to finish the gens
The killer has practically already won despite only 50% of their objectives being done.
You can't really put the 2 objectives side by side like that. Asymetric games don't work that way.
At the start of the match everything is in favor of survivors.
Yes.
all pallets are available, everybody is able to hop on gens while the killer spawned on the other side of the map, there are 7 different gens they can contest, etc...
Yes.
The longer a match goes however the more the favor starts to shift towards the killer.
Only if the killer still has a defensible gen setup.
Survivors need to be picked up/unhooked, less generators become available meaning less for the killer to defend, pallets are broken creating dead zones, survivors need to heal or risk a snowball, etc...
Less to defend, again, only if the remaining gen setup is actually defensible. Yes, enough pallets can be broken to create dead zones, but only if gens aren't done too soon for it to matter. Healing isn't that risky, it can be fast without a dedicated build.
That first 60% of generators may go fast but once the killer gets their pressure ball rolling and the game shifts to their favor then the last 2 gens go a whole lot slower
Again, only if the remaining gen setup is actually defensible. You could have 2 gens on either side of the map in which case you are screwed over unless you possess mobility.
There is also the flaw in that comparison that survivors need to do 100% of their objective if they want more than one person to leave through the gates, while killers can secure a win way before they have done all their objectives.
If the killer spreads his hooks between 2 survivors then by hook 6 only 2 are left. And in the majority of the cases those 2 don't stand a chance to finish the gens
The killer has practically already won despite only 50% of their objectives being done.
Just like survivors virtually already win if the last 3 gens are split up? Or again, if it's a killer with no mobility and 2 gens are on either side of the map? Not to say that it doesn't happen, because it does sometimes, but killers cannot reliably spread hooks betwixt just two particular survivors every match, only by happenstance.
You can't really put the 2 objectives side by side like that. Asymmetric games don't work that way.
My friend, in the specific case of DbD, it seems I very much can line them up and still be in the right. A game like 'Depth' on the other hand, you'd be correct.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3353194#Comment_3353194
what are you really going to do with chunks of .3 seconds
Close the distance. Obviously.
Yeah, you can't teach much in one minute, but you can give chase with that additional .3 seconds. These DO actually add up. Just because you can easily discard them in your perception doesn't mean they aren't there, or that they aren't contributing to higher kill rates.
Very good, most rush teams are higher mmr. Also just because most people aren't bringing the rocket launcher to the pistol range doesn't mean that it's not a problem when a team DOES bring it.
And how much of that is down to Hyperfocus versus Stakeout/toolbox? How much of that is actually the new stuff? How much does this impact the average killer? And why is this being argued on this topic, specifically?
You are grasping at straws.
Am I? Because DBD already has trouble retaining newcomers and intermittent players, so upping the skill floor for 80% of match participants even more seems like a really bad idea.
what are you really going to do with chunks of .3 seconds
Close the distance. Obviously.
Yeah, you can't teach much in one minute, but you can give chase with that additional .3 seconds. These DO actually add up. Just because you can easily discard them in your perception doesn't mean they aren't there, or that they aren't contributing to higher kill rates.
Excuse me, but close the distance to what degree if not minuscule/none at all? You would need to take a constant, practically clairvoyant path of least resistance for the entire match, and any sort of tidbit time chunks you'll have "saved" would evaporate with a single stun or blind.
Very good, most rush teams are higher mmr. Also just because most people aren't bringing the rocket launcher to the pistol range doesn't mean that it's not a problem when a team DOES bring it.
And how much of that is down to Hyperfocus versus Stakeout/toolbox? How much of that is actually the new stuff? How much does this impact the average killer? And why is this being argued on this topic, specifically?
Did you not bring up the time added to gens as a killer buff? I mentioned the hyperfocus/stakeout combination because it subverts the added gen time and exacerbates the issue of ultra fast completion. It impacts the average killer because no human being who consistently plays this game is going to remain a novice, they will inevitably get better/develop game sense over time and adopt the most effective tools available or the "META". Is it not foolhardy as a game dev to leave crazy-strong combinations as they are just because a majority of the player base isn't running riot with them at the moment?
You are grasping at straws.
Am I? Because DBD already has trouble retaining newcomers and intermittent players, so upping the skill floor for 80% of match participants even more seems like a really bad idea.
Yes, you are. In fact, I'd actually go as far to say that if this is your stance, then you don't possess a hard grasp on the causes behind the 3 primary events that make uninstalling an attractive option for survivors and killers alike, i.e. tunneling, camping and/or hard-slugging.
Our current predicament with tunneling, camping and hard-slugging has spawned primarily (albeit not entirely) due to:
- Prolonged exposure to generator efficiency elements that boost completion speed beyond the scope of reason, conditioning killers to jump to desperation tactics early unless playing one of the few top-tier killers quite well.
- Overabundance of defensive resources and 'second chance' perks inside a high efficiency environment.
- Killers looking at their hud not far from the start of a match, seeing that survivors have 60%+ completion while they merely have 0 - 8.3% completion and effectively going into 'oh s**t mode.'
Necessity is the mother of invention and it became a necessity to deal with fast completion inside overly safe environments, thus tunneling, camping and hard-slugging were born. Atm if anything negative is done to camping, tunneling or slugging without also including some form of meaningful base kit completion limitations or map changes, it's likely that even more killer players will turn coat or flat out uninstall because there would be even less that could be tried in scenarios of desperation, the occurrences of which are very probable in swf matches and more probable now with SoloQ due to the upgraded hud (especially with M1/Stealth killers).
If killers can be easily pushed into a scenario where tunneling, camping and slugging are the only real cards they can play (or lose the game), you can count on at least one if not all 3 of those deadly sins happening. This, in turn, makes playing either side obnoxious with extremely unsatisfying gameplay, leads to people uninstalling and writing bad reviews, company reputation decays, overall sales decrease, etc.
So, most certainly, ultra fast gens have to leave the picture and base killer stats need another slight increase due to the general increased player efficiency from the new hud (or map generation needs a big revamp). AFTER THIS more strict mechanics can be introduced to make tunneling, camping, and slugging virtually pointless/tactically undesirable. I'd rather play hook-based matches (with more chases) that feel more fair and fun instead of kill-based matches that mostly feel like a sweating fever dream.
The OP is correct, the current state of affairs sucks.
Patrick's hockey-based vision of DbD, gameplaywise, is a failure and does not deserve further support.
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It's so easy it may as well be a horror-themed cakewalk...like....
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352758#Comment_3352758
Iron will wasn't gutted but reworked since this single perk could completely counter the power of a certain killer (spirit), so it was a needed thing to do.
That reclassification is nonsense and you -know- it is nonsense.
DS wasn't nerfed but fixed since it was supposed to stun for 3 seconds
That one may actually be true, but it's also turning a blind eye to the entire state of the game, and the perk itself. It was 3 seconds back when it was on-demand. It became 5 seconds, then it got tied to getting unhooked, then it got the conspic action nerf.
The bottom line is that the DS that was 3 seconds but needed to be 5 seconds because of Enduring is not the same perk as the DS that got its stun duration axed from 5 to 3. It's blatantly disregarding the state of the game with a 'well, technically' that you KNOW is just a rationalisation.
Both Iron Will and DS were gutted.
Good luck trying to catch someone then in the maps that are present nowdays with a killer that isn't a blight or nurse then (maps full of pallets, most of them extremely safe due to the fact that they are near jungle gyms and strong loops make impossible to end a chase in few time if the chased survivor is decent at looping)
That depends entirely on the killer and the build. Y'all act like you're playing adept Twins all the time.
And even those can secure a quick down, at least.
improvements? Are you talking to red addons that are gimmick or awfully bad perhaps? the only killers with decent red addons are blight and trapper (and despite this he need to waste an addon slot for the trapper bag to be somewhat viable), everyone else has red addons that are mediocre or bad. As i said if you see the entire picture you'll see that survivors have the upper hand regarding items and addons
You also get improved access to yellows and greens that ARE competent, and you need fewer BP to build up a stock of these add-ons so you can afford to be less frugal with them. The bloodweb improvement was for both sides.
so for you seeing the classic hyperfocus/stake out/build to last combo paired with green toolboxes isn't troublesome and won't definitely boost the genspeed uh? Please, try to be impartial, even certain survivor mains that i personally know told me that this combo is BUSTED af
It's got a 2% pickrate. If it was that brutally busted, why is almost no one running it?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3353145#Comment_3353145
What, because of freebie kills? Because of how the EGC can shove in an extra undeserved kill here and there? Doesn't really help your argument though, does it? And no, the regression buff did not get reverted at all.
I'd be interested to see where you get these 'statistics', because we didn't get any since October. Unless you count Azhimovs' community thing, but those statistics definitely don't support your argument.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3353160#Comment_3353160
It's an extra 2 seconds every time you kick a gen. Whenever you injure a survivor, you shave off .3 seconds. Get ten hits throughout the game, that's 3 seconds off. Then add the reduced on-hit sprint, taking away some extra distance, combined with the reduced on-hit cooldown to take away even more distance.
If you combine all of the buffs killers got, on an average match, you're probably saving way more time than any of you are willing to admit.
Gen completion times having ten seconds added was rendered completely inconsequential from hyperfocus/stakeout (which enables gens to be completed faster than ever except for original BNP).
And very few people are actually using that, for some reason.
The only kill rates that can truly be referenced for any accuracy when it comes to how lethal a killer really is are from the best vs the best, not a gaggle of varied skill levels/knowledge.
Sure, if you want DBD to turn into an unplayable spectator sport.
It's an extra 2 seconds every time you kick a gen. Whenever you injure a survivor, you shave off .3 seconds. Get ten hits throughout the game, that's 3 seconds off. Then add the reduced on-hit sprint, taking away some extra distance, combined with the reduced on-hit cooldown to take away even more distance.
If you combine all of the buffs killers got, on an average match, you're probably saving way more time than any of you are willing to admit.
This reminds me of an argument from high school: "Adding 1 minute onto the end of each class before the bell will improve the educational value of the class because at the end of the year that's an extra few hours of class time added up." That argument didn't work because what are you really going to teach inside of 1 minute that students will actually retain? Much like this argument not working because what are you really going to do with chunks of .3 seconds that may or may not be experienced in the only way it would be minutely useful (as a lump sum).
Gen completion times having ten seconds added was rendered completely inconsequential from hyperfocus/stakeout (which enables gens to be completed faster than ever except for original BNP).
And very few people are actually using that, for some reason.
Very good, most rush teams are higher mmr. Also just because most people aren't bringing the rocket launcher to the pistol range doesn't mean that it's not a problem when a team DOES bring it.
The only kill rates that can truly be referenced for any accuracy when it comes to how lethal a killer really is are from the best vs the best, not a gaggle of varied skill levels/knowledge.
Sure, if you want DBD to turn into an unplayable spectator sport.
You are grasping at straws.
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It's not you.
Survs getting to 60% before the killer even gets to 8.3% is still one of the bigger ticket "BS" issues aside from map design.
On one hand, it just feels like crap that it can happen so easily, on the other hand, it's the biggest source of camping, tunneling and hard slugging in the game.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352115#Comment_3352115
59-61%.
How is the game supposed to be in a 'lot more unbalanced state'? You forget that in 6.1, killers had their regression buffed, they had their on-hit cooldown reduced, survivors had their hit-sprint reduced, and gentime was increased by a total of fifty seconds.
Why should killers receive buffs if y'all are just gonna show up here a month later pretending you didn't get anything?
Regression remains at 1:4 ratio with a 2.5% kick which has no practical application besides lightly punishing gen tapping (which shouldn't even be a thing in the first place).
The on-hit cooldown and hit-sprint reductions are so minute that they have no noticeable effect in higher skill matches.
Gen completion times having ten seconds added was rendered completely inconsequential from hyperfocus/stakeout (which enables gens to be completed faster than ever except for original BNP).
Killers might not come to the forum with such a sour attitude as often if they received buffs that were not subverted shortly after being given.
And as for anyone trying to cite global kill rates: These rates do not reflect the true lethality of a killer (nurse for example). The only kill rates that can truly be referenced for any accuracy when it comes to how lethal a killer really is are from the best vs the best, not a gaggle of varied skill levels/knowledge. There's a reason they cut off showing the rates at the top 5% marker.
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@HommeBizarre said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352345#Comment_3352345
True
When 3 gens popped in less than 2 minutes
I'm sorry but someone has to go ASAP byt any means necessarry
Exactly, as long as Survivors can easily get to 60% completion (3 gens) before the killer can even get to 8.3% completion (1 hook), killers will always jump to desperation tactics like tunneling and camping. There is no getting around this fact should anyone ever truly wish for tunneling and camping to be eliminated in a way that actually works.
At this point, it will not help our situation to incite further punishment for tunneling without some accompanying form of generator completion limiting. No, not at all, it would just be further weakening the killer's ability to combat the "gen rush," which in turn causes even more people to lose the desire to play killer because of the sharp increase in frustration.
Fast completion = Desperation Tactics (tunneling, camping, slugging)
I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about this or why there are so many fantastical attempts at rebuking it.
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As long as it's possible to complete 60% of the objective before the killer can get to 8.3% of theirs, there will always be a lot of camping/tunneling in response.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3348941#Comment_3348941
I don't want to be mean or rude, but if you really can't see any application for a killer with mapwide tracking and consistent stealth, that's far more on you than on the core design of the power. You put "her power" in brackets next to Exposed like it's all she does, but it's like, a tertiary thing at best. The main thing she does is track survivors, and the secondary thing she does (or at least is meant to do, as far as I'm aware; nobody's denying she's weak) is give herself stealth. The Exposed is like, pressure to mess with her traps at best, it's far from the only thing her power has.
She's not a chase killer. That doesn't automatically make the design worthless.
Against novice - intermediate survivors, her kit is not worthless.
Against expert - master survivors, her kit is quite worthless.
She's like a nightvision scope attached to an imaginary rifle.