AliceNull
AliceNull
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I think giving survivors these explosive, big moment tools is honestly the correct decision for how to balance 2v8. Its clearly meant to be a pretty arcade-y gamemode, and it already struggles to find enough survivor players given how many are needed per match and how a surprising number of people only end up joining the killer queues FOR 2v8 even when they don't play it in the normal mode.
Play While You Wait doesn't even really help in the end, because even if every single killer is using the feature, thats still only 1/4th of the lobby needed, so the draw to play survivor in the mode needs to be either dramatically more bloodpoints - and 3.5/4.0 isn't actually enough given the lack of offerings - strong gameplay moments, or preferably both. I actually really like survivor playing solo queue in the 1v4, but the only reason 2v8 ever draws me in is when I feel like I'm having these big moments just because the faster pace and simplified format isn't what I play the game for. -
Another thing I think might be at least contributing to it is…when was the last huge licensed survivor that people were particularly excited for and also didn't come with a massive amount of bad publicity? I barely see any Dustins, Eleven was a little more popular but not by a lot. The Walking Dead survivors were cool, and Michonne even had a solid perk lineup with one of them being really good (we won't talk about Rick's perks for his sake), but there was the whole voice acting issue and all of the publicity during that time period was about the game burning down as the UE5 switch caught up with BHVR in a very nasty fashion.
All of the original survivors for a good while now have been banger after banger, but if we want to go back to the last time we got a genuinely Big Deal™ licensed survivor that actually had a more than lukewarm reception for more than one reason or another, that'd be Trevor (And Lara shortly before him) back in 2024! I am really, really hoping BHVR haven't dropped the ball again on that front, because Sienna would be an incredible addition for the roster for the Terrifier chapter. -
@SpyUA said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4108398#Comment_4108398
I do have the issue with the game as they refuse to nerf the broken stuff while continuing hand holding the survivors with stuff like pallets density. I agree that survivors are weaker than the killer and that they need the perks but not when they are overpowered and plays the game for them and rewards stuff like losing or ratting.
I'm not sure why we need global incentives just for playing the game as normal. *Most people already do that.
Killers objective is to kill, slugging/tunneling is killing so it is playing the game normally (i don't mind strong perks if survivors stop complaining about tunneling/slugging as those strategies are needed to have a chance against all of this and a bunch of pallets on a killer below A tier, A/S tier killers are the only ones that are to play without those strategies), you can say that killers have a 60% kill rate that proves the game is killer sided but the kill rate is only 60% (the kill rate bhvr wants) because of tunneling and slugging (if you check on nightlight the kill rates, majority of them are below 50% or just above 50% when those strategies are still in use by the majority even on A tier killers). The point of hook incentives is to make the game more fun with stuff like 3 dashes on wesker (you can't tell me this is not fun in 2v8) and reduce the amount of the annoying strategies but not making them punishing as they are required most of the time against stuff like gen rushing or bully squad (tunneling is literally rushing the objective like gen rushing so both are doing the objective but it doesn't change the fact that both are extremely strong).
I don't need a cookie just for doing the thing I'm supposed to do.
Survivors are getting a cookie for doing what they are not supposed to do (getting hooked, they need to try survive and waste as much time as possible, using the perks like DS and dh is really not that hard and some more just free value) so this statement just doesn't make sense, deli is different but the issues with it are in end game basically which were not addressed and it's really easy to use.
"Refuse to nerf the broken stuff." Deli, sprint burst and vigil are getting hit next patch, and given what they've said about the midchapter, Resurgence is almost certainly going to be one of the only nerfs on their radar. Thrill is getting nerfed, coul is getting touched for some of the stronger mass slugging strategies, and NTH is getting tied to gen instead of the killer. As far as perk balance goes, the real problem perks for either design or balance reasons that aren't either already very likely or confirmed are Shoulder, Disso, Blood Favour, maaaybe the HyperStakeout interaction? By and large perk balance is only bad because most perks need to be brought UPWARDS, and we're getting a whole lot of buffs in the midchapter anyways.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4108396#Comment_4108396
IMO one of his strongest qualities is his ability to initiate jumpscare from windows. Many maps have really strong main buildings with safe windows. Garden of joy for example has a gen upstairs with a super safe window next to it. Defending that gen is typically just a waste of time normally... but for Jason, its free hits. He'll appear at the window rather than going up the stairs, which means the survivors now have to run away from the window towards... nothing really.
Ooh, yeah, I can see why. Your only real options are to either book it for the stairwell checkspot before he shows up or, if you're at least in the hallway, be one of the 5 people who remember that upstairs has that third window that drops into actual tiles (not that anyone can be blamed for forgetting given how hidden and out of the way it is). If you're in the gen room at all during jumpscare you're almost certainly just taking a health state if not two! And if you've decided to be crouching in there, thinking you're not going to be the target, but the Jason knows you're there or just vibe checks the area anyways? Really nasty situation.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4108390#Comment_4108390
I usually dont use OE to CHASE ppl, so the ones I pop out at dont know they're chosen. Even the ones that are TRYING to stealth me by crouching the OE arnt safe since Im constantly using info I get from Spies, sleeping bag and Surge to find my next target. That COULD be after a hook, or I might just swap targets rapidly to apply pressure. I spend very little time patrolling in OE unless its endgame for finding hatch and patrolling the gates after.
Fair enough! Thanks for the answer as far as that goes. I'd want to ask so many questions but I know that'd be a bit of a nuisance, but the response to Jason specifically has interested me more than most other new killers in recent memory. I play mostly solo queue survivor at this point, and even when I played more killer it wasn't Jason too often, so a lot of the things I NOTICE people struggling with are like, the usual bad macro decisions (running killers back to hook, dying in a bad spot, unhooking too soon, healing under hook at bad times especially without Resurgence, not resetting, 3 genning on accident, that sort of thing), but thats because I can't really pay attention to the minute details of peoples chase.
I've also had a very different experience with Jasons in my own matches as far as my perspective on their power level, and people rarely tend to talk about specifics either on the forums or in aftergame chat, so its hard to tell what the difference actually IS match to match or player to player. Like, one thing I HAVE noticed is that OE scares some people a lot! They'll abandon tiles they can run Jason at because he jumpscared into them, or they'll crouch instead of sticking a gen even if they're at a spot where there are two different resources in range. -
@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4108383#Comment_4108383
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/BO079986Z009/1000002515.jpg
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/3EWKE2SO97SY/1000002517.jpg
Am I just an outlier? Is this just a case where I found the killer I mesh with the best? Im pretty sure if anything, the upcoming perk changes might end up BUFFING my setup if anything. A spies buff would be cool. What does his average stats look like?
This is really interesting! I hope you don't mind me interrogating you a bit for my own curiosity, but given you've had a solid playtime and a really high kill rate I'd like to ask, what kind of survivor behaviour (insert obvious joke here) have you seen from your perspective as the Jason in these matches? Both on the micro and macro level, I mean. Like, as an extreme example, are people still running into pallets and windows during OE from your end?
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Assuming Judgement releases at full strength, isn't nerfed, and the upcoming midchapter doesn't heavily shake up the meta? They're going to be on extreme opposite ends of A tier pretty reliably I'd say. Judgement is definitely going to be very, very strong in capable hands, and she directly counters a lot of the strongest tools survivors have access to.
Given she denies perks like STB and Resurgence while also having one of the easiest ways of forcing HyperStakeout users to drop the gen for a second or two, plus the passive slowdown from the heresy mechanic, she has a lot of strengths besides just the strong hits. Even with just the beam, I suspect we're going to see a Billy situation of characters with a decently high skill floor that are just straight up THAT good once you're solid with them. -
I feel like this would be more reasonable as an addition to Dominance rather than a basekit change.
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Pleasantly surprised at how varied it is, as well as the ability to customize the wheel to your preferences. The message display is obvious without being obtrusive, and the icons for each message in the wheel are a pretty nice touch for readability at a glance in a tense situation. My only feedback here is that I would like the ability to add specific perks as messages (with the caveat you have to actually have them on you) or have an additional way to ping them once you're in trial. That way, you can announce you're not just going for a normal unhook you're using Shoulder, or need it for Deliverance, or that you're Plot Twisting instead of being slugged, etc. Overall even if that isn't added, you've done great work on this, good job.
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Anyone who says killer or survivor are 'in the worst state they've ever been in' would be dead wrong even if we were talking 'the state they've been in over just the last two years'. I mean, killer had a worse meta than right now only a few months ago with Fast Track dumping free BNPs out the back of a truck en masse, and last year we had release Ghoul and Krasue practically running survivors over in their car with all the intense effort of a casual evening stroll.
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Completely typed a post in the wrong thread while checking a tab, mildly embarrassed, just going to say I'm glad coulrophobia is getting nerfed as an aside with the edit because it was pretty egregious on killers with large TR for slugging strategies.
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@ForTheEntity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4107954#Comment_4107954
The OP talks about grinding, well what are they grinding? They are most likely grinding bloodpoints, quests or tome challenges, not wins or MMR gains.
When a killer picks you up and carries you to a hook you can gain a lot of bloodpoints in the Survival category for struggling on the shoulder and also unhooking also scores a lot of bloodpoints for your rescuer, both get denied by slugging.
So if a killer is refusing to hook and going for a 4 man slug to win they are denying survivors a lot of bloodpoints and quest progress because they can't do anything while slugged. And if you're playing SoloQ you never know if you're going to get picked up or how long it'll take.
But yeah we should be glad the killer isn't hooking us.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/6F6EV45PUCC9/austin-powers-right.gif
As much as I strongly disagree with the common complaints about slugging for a wide variety of reasons, even from the perspective of someone who plays primarily solo queue survivor at this point, this is a point I don't think anyone should disagree with at all. They NEED to update scoring events so that sticking around and playing correctly against these strategies is at the bare minimum rewarding on the BP end for the time investment.
Now, people might be asking, am I really saying they should give survivors free bloodpoints for being downed and sitting on the floor for a while? Yes, I am, wholeheartedly and unironically. We should be running the entity's pockets like we're mugging her in a back alley, give me my money BHVR. -
@Thusly_Boned said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4107935#Comment_4107935
Yeah, this is like half the community lol. To be clear, I really didn't/don't like SM (even in her 2.0 form) and would cheer for a total overhaul, but refusing to play against a killer just because you don't like them and can't be bothered to learn counterplay isn't making anything better, it just leads to general brain rot.
They fixed the worst parts of her, but a lot of people just couldn't let it go, and here we are with an effectively dead killer. I'm sure that feels validating to those who hate her, but it's a bad precedent to set.
And just DC'ing against anything you don't like is not acceptable behavior. No one is going to love everything in the game, if a person doesn't want to accept that they might have to play through some miserable matches here and there, they shouldn't queue up.For the record, not liking her - even vehemently - is entirely fine, and I just want to make it clear for anyone reading this thread that my contempt isn't for anyone who has a difference of opinion on SM2, some people don't like certain archetypes or playstyles! Thats valid! Its only the Go Next rubbish or people who were loudly, confidently, and stubbornly factually incorrect about her I've any problem with, not inexperienced players who just didn't understand and were actually bothering to learn, or people who understood her kit and went 'eh, I don't care for this' even if I might strongly disagree as someone who really liked 2.0.
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@Oputeev_Stas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4107918#Comment_4107918
Well, if survivors don't like playing against her, why should they be forced to stay in the match? I completely understand and don't judge those who didn't want to play against her, the fault lies solely with the devs for the poor design. Plus, don't expect major and fun mechanics from $5 DLCs and chapters (prime example is Judgement which is unfun to go against I hate casino powers and can also hold 3 gens with mindbreaker and gen info perks) after all, DBD is basically a semi-indie game.
It is absolutely not the dev's fault that a loud enough group of stupid, entitled players started just making things up about how her power worked in order to get mad at the things they invented. Again, most of the people who DCd against skull merchant could not even get the most basic elements of her kit correctly! Of course a killer is going to be frustrating to go against if you don't even bother to understand what they even do! It'd be like deciding we need to nerf Xenomorph because a group of players crossed their arms, pouted, and said "I'm not putting down flame turrets though", or removing head traps from pig because those players suddenly just refused to try and take them off and died for it. People hated her for things a kit that no longer existed did over a year after it was reworked out of the game!
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@Oputeev_Stas said:
I don't think it'll happen that quickly, it's hard to rework her power into something fun for both sides without completely overhauling her from scratch.
Thats the frustrating thing! Skull merchant players AND survivors who had actual frustrations with the power were basically in lock step agreement about what needed to be changed before she got gutted! Skerchant 2 needed a knight level rework to heavily nerf drop-a-drone loop denial mid chase and tone done her active drone rotation speed in order to raise her skill floor and buff her in the areas that actually made her unique and cool (such as her Laser Tag tech, manual drone rotation, things like that). Heck, most Skull Merchant players I knew, including myself, were completely okay with removing the hinder in exchange for replacing it with a boosted haste effect just so it felt a little better for survivors in the same situation during chase.
The people who BHVR listened to at the time both didn't understand what skull merchant actually did, and did not particularly care. It was INCREDIBLY common for the loudest, most angry skerchant haters to be routinely just factually wrong about her power, or to just straight up refuse to learn the counterplay that would deal with some of their frustration. The amount of people who would DC and/or leave comments about 'hour long games' (long after Chess Merchant got her full rework) or 'can't do a gen mate, she's droned it and it can scan you' (Just factually wrong??? She couldn't scan you while you were doing a gen.) or similar rubbish was astounding.
There were no amount of well thought out kit changes that would fix DCing against skull merchant becoming The Done Thing™ for the simple reason that people didn't hate her for what her kit actually did at that point, they hated her for existing and being the Skull Merchant. -
@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/471127/pls-rework-skull-merchant
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/3ZHGC5ZNLER6/image.png
What is DIY Tech and Trophy mean? You're speaking a foreign language to me lol
As an aside, this is pretty cool, and I know they obviously mean something like a mini mori or (on the extreme end) some kind of sadako-like alternate objective, but its really funny that they've described one of the pillars they've explored for a killer is 'kill'.
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After being publicly executed for the sake of appeasing actual straight up weaponized incompetence, they've left the poor girl to rot in a ditch ever since - and for probably at least until 2027 at this point. Given what I've seen over the past 2 ACTUAL YEARS of her being utterly terrible, it doesn't really matter what she does or how by the time the rework comes out, you'll still get death threats for playing her.
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@Arcturus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4106821#Comment_4106821
I just do not agree with this at all. I think maybe Jason's spikes might be slightly easier to dodge at mid-long range, probably because the hitbox is slightly smaller or something. However, Huntress also gives an audio cue, as does Springtrap. That is not unique at all to Jason. In addition, whether it's because of the angle he throws the spike from or his height I don't know, but I frequently find that with short obstacles that are just tall enough to crouch under to dodge projectiles, if they aren't thick enough Jason can just shoot you over them, and I've never had that experience with Huntress. Because of that, even if his projectiles might possibly be slightly easier to dodge at range, I'd say they are more dangerous close range than Huntress's hatchets.
OE, while limited in that you can't see survivors that want to be seen, allows you to freely travel across the map (unlike Huntress who has no mobility, and it's better than Sptringtrap's doors), and gives you free info on survivors not crouching and, crucially, doing objectives. No other ranged killer in the game has built in info (and only Springtrap has map mobility), in fact information like this is rare amongst the entire cast. And that's not even considering the screaming and heartbeat from Jump Scare if you didn't see a survivor when you came out of OE.
Jason occasionally needs to go into OE to reload or keep up his haste, but:
- Usually, if the survivor is experienced and rotates to different resources, Jason will get access to at least a couple reloads throughout the chase without even needing to enter OE (there are a lot of hooks and piles).
- Him having to go into OE to regain his haste is a design flaw, again, I don't know why he should be able to be 4.6 using projectiles, and the implementation just ends up being clunky sometimes.
- I'd argue that basically every ranged killer has a worse / more guaranteed cooldown. Some killers, like Springtrap, have an enforced cooldown where after using their power it is guaranteed to be unusable for some amount of time (in this case, 6-8s depending on what the axe hits). Other killers, like Huntress, use lockers to reload, where when they run out of their limited ammunition, they must drop everything to go hunt down a locker (which can take anywhere between a couple seconds and 10 seconds) and do a 3s reload animation. In comparison, Jason can chuck a spike, take a 2s detour to a hook or pile that are often positioned next to or even in loops, and he's off to the races again. If you've gone through a few spikes and don't have another nearby, no worries, if you enter OE, you can grab one, and usually easily find the survivor again (whereas a killer like Huntress would lose so much distance that they cannot make up).
I'm not saying Jason needs to be on Huntress's level, she's a tad on the weak side in modern DBD and needs some love. But there is no reason why Jason should get 4.6 speed, single-hit injure projectiles, fast reloads, map mobility, info, and even to some extent "stealth" in that he will appear next to you without you being able to see him coming. He does not need all of it. He has a bloated kit and power creeps half the cast of this game, but most of all ranged killers. He would be plenty strong without the haste, or changing the haste to be for a few seconds after a reload, and if people still wanted to be 4.6 with him they can run Batteries like the rest of the 4.4 killers have to.
I wasn't comparing their overall strengths, its very clear that Jason overall is stronger than huntress, I was comparing specifically their projectiles. I find that if you're in the know about similar shots for deathslinger, its pretty readily apparent whether or not Jason can theoretically shoot through a given obstacle or not, and plan accordingly. As for the sound cue, yes its not unique to Jason, but the hitbox being MUCH slimmer in my experience means a doubleback at mid range is usually enough on reaction unless they hard read the dodge. Huntress' hitbox at the same range means you need to predictive dodge and zig zag, and its more on the huntress to miss, if that makes any sense.
I firmly disagree about him being just fine without the haste because Jason, bluntly, just isn't a particular outlier in strength compared to other low A killers outside of his specific interactions with full hex builds, and those are getting nerfed next patch anyways. He's also different enough to the other ranged roster* (*Springtrap suffers from a severe design flaw, and could easily have his own niche and a more coherent gameplay loop with the cameras, making use of his built in stealth if they didn't make him CLANG AND BANG AROUND LIKE A WASHING MACHINE WITH A BRICK INSIDE OF IT but I digress, thats a personal annoyance I have and a strong one at that.) that people have good reason to prefer other killers even if they're not as strong. Taking away his ability to actually loop effectively would leave him much, much weaker, and I really don't think thats really justified. -
@Arcturus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4106767#Comment_4106767
Wouldn't it make much more sense in that case for the haste to activate for like 5+ seconds after grabbing a spike to help Jason make up the couple of meters he lost? Because as it is right now, most of the haste duration is used to loop a tile at 4.6m/s with a projectile, not to just catch up after a reload.
In addition, if you want to stick a chase that lasts a bit longer but don't want to go into OE, you aren't getting the haste for when you need to reload anymore. The haste also applies only after coming out of OE, and if you are in OE you almost 100% of the time will have a spike by the time you get out, so it just benefits a killer that already has his weapon and doesn't need to reload. If that was the intended purpose of the haste, it doesn't even do it's job properly and instead just makes him much more oppressive in chase as essentially a 4.6 Huntress.
Its not the only reason, mind, its just one of the stronger ones. As much as I understand the frustration sometimes with dealing with a 4.6 ranged killer, Jason's projectiles have a LOT of downsides compared to huntress besides the single shot issue, both being easier to miss and much easier to dodge intentionally, especially at midrange where you can often do it on reaction based on sound. A few seconds of 4.6 wouldn't really be enough to compensate for his play patterns being weakened that much, especially because OE gives survivors a lot of agency even outside of chase, and is an active significant detriment to Jason when he's forced to use it in chase to keep up his haste or refresh his piles/hooks.
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@Arcturus said:
As many other people have mentioned, he's actually 4.4 and 4.6 with the haste. Still ridiculous however, when you consider that not a single other ranged killer in the game is able to move at 4.6m/s while using projectiles without perks, despite Jason also having more in the rest of his kit than all of them.
Its because he frequently has to break pathing in order to grab spikes in order to have any anti-loop, and he only gets one shot each. If he was 4.4 permanently and still constantly had to ping pong to spikes/hooks in chase just to get a chance to use his only loop ability he'd really be hurting because of it, and it wouldn't feel great to play I imagine.
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He isn't 4.6 by default, when under his haste effect he moves will all the hustle and bustle of trapper.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4106236#Comment_4106236
If increasing the penalty once didn't reduce DCs, increasing it again won't suddenly start working. You can't punish frustration, crashes, or hopeless matches. Increasing punishment only hits the symptoms, not the cause. If the causes stay the same, the behavior stays the same.
It's like raising the volume on a broken speaker; turning it up won't make it louder. We've already seen this with games with DC penalties; past a certain point, harsher punishments only increase resentment, not compliance. Players who want to leave will still leave, and players who crash will still crash. The only real solution is addressing why people DC in the first place.
This just…isn't true. Other games with DC penalties still have the occasional DCs, yes, but those penalties DO remove the people who leave regularly from the matchmaking pool eventually. The goal isn't to stop every DC ever, you can't really do that, but if someone is leaving their games often enough that the penalties are going to ramp and ramp, the best solution is to just stop them from queueing in the first place. This game is rated PEGI 18 for a reason, expecting people to act like an adult enough finish the match they queued for isn't a particularly high bar to ask.
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This is just the result of BHVR baffling and harmful long standing refusal to do what every other game with matchmade teams does. As much as the solo queue experience has gotten in some ways tremendously better over the years, one of the biggest problems has always been the people allowed to queue up with the express intent of no longer playing the game the moment something doesn't go their way.
Just. Ban. These. People. Every other matchmade team game does it, and DBD has always been for the worse for not following suit.
They provide nothing positive to the playerbase, they are landmines in the queues ruining the ability to even play out a full match for no other reason than wanting to throw a tantrum, and if they started seeing week+ long timeouts for regularly DCing or giving up, they'd either leave, or start actually playing out their matches. Both of which would be an improvement either way. -
I don't know, the lanterns are honestly kind of fun even on the killer side for me, not just survivor. Yeah, they make survivors carrying them better at looping, but I also can see them clearly so they can't break and run as easily, which is a fair enough tradeoff IMO. Plus I think they add to the spooky atmosphere more than remove from it, especially if its on a gen and breakable, theres something satisfying about darkening the area before I leave or intimidating about having the gen I was 'safe' at before now be more dangerous when I come back to it.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4105005#Comment_4105005
🤷♀️
Maybe I’m low MMR. Maybe I’m somehow better than I give myself credit for.
It’s worked for me so far.
I just want to add when I say skill mismatch that isn't me saying you're rubbish or anything, and I hope it didn't come off as an insult. I've seen some pretty cracked players have skill mismatches like that against good teams, and DBD's matchmaking is…well, subpar even today, you wouldn't necessarily need to be 'low MMR' for this to happen to you.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4105003#Comment_4105003
Sure, I got that part.
Still, tho. I tend to go for 1 hook on every survivor before proceeding to try for 2nds. Earlier if I can’t find one.
When everyone’s got a hook state already, taking one with StB is risky, since you’d putting yourself at death hook. And it’d pointless to take a hook state from the first hook.
Well of course shoulder isn't going to affect you if your playstyle is to do it to yourself every game??? Like, if you're at such a skill mismatch that you can consistently go out of your way to 4 hook your opponents without it causing significant macro issues for you, no amount of strong perks is going to save these people.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4104994#Comment_4104994
Having 4 hook states between 2 survivors is something I’d intentionally need to go for, which I cba to do.
My pressure tends to come from quick sucsessive hooks. It doesn’t really matter who the hooks are on, at that stage.
To clarify, 1-2-1-0 is the total hook states on the team across 4 players, meaning you've gotten a second hook on any player over 4 chases, which is really, really normal gameplay. Heck, you can easily get 1-2-0-0 relatively early without tunneling if survivor 2 resets and just happens to be on an important gen you patrol by the time you finish your other chase.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4104924#Comment_4104924
I’m confused. Surely if you’re playing ‘normally’ (which I’m taking to mean not tunnelling) the perk hardly affects you?
You still got the hook. StB doesn’t take that away from you.
Absolutely not, no. There is a HUGE difference between having death hook pressure or not, and teams that have shoulder can force you to be inefficient with your hooks with very few actual downsides, especially for killers that aren't immediately returning back to hook or who rely on M2s for chase and can't make use of the exposed - and thats ignoring the common use of vigil to reduce that exposed duration anyways.
Hooks aren't equal to eachother, having 4 hooks with no kill pressure - especially by the time you're down to 2/3 gens, which is very common for 4 hooks against more efficient teams - is a completely different gamestate from 1-2-1-0, and allows for survivors to play much more aggressively and efficiently because the chance at snowballing pressure is dramatically reduced. -
@TheMruczek said:
It should have some kind of activation condition. Actives after you unhook someone or actives after the same survivor has been hooked twice.
Something to make constant rotating hooks in SwFs harder and anticipating the perk much easier.
If the perk is still too overpowered, the 40s of exposed should be changed for something more impactful imo.
It wouldn't still be too overpowered, in fact you could straight up remove the scream and exposed downsides if you made it actually an anti-tunnel perk with the double hook requirement. The problem with shoulder isn't that its too good at anti-tunnel, its too good at removing pressure from killers playing normally.
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They're actually going to be buffing a large number of perks during the upcoming midchapter, some of them directly in response to Diminishing Returns (really hopeful for buffs to Empathic Connection on the healing side. Also Dark Theory. You know what? Buff Parental Guidance while you're at it BHVR, give Yoichi the clean sweep he deserves.) IIRC around 45~ perk updates, shared between roles, with a huge focus on buffs with VERY few nerfs that are entirely focused on perks not affected by DR so much (almost certainly resurgence). Really looking forward to seeing what they choose to buff and update for that patch, theres a lot of perks I think are cool design wise but don't have the right numbers or need small mechanical tweaks.
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Frankly, a big part of it is gates. I actually really like the hatch mechanic on both sides, and unless I'm really trying for the 4k for some reason I don't slug for it unless I know exactly where the last person is and can get them reasonably fast so I can specifically avoid giving people that frustrating wait. Despite hatch actually being an interesting little minigame, the moment I close hatch as killer the entire concept of last man standing goes from 'oh, this is a fun and interesting race to finish off the match' to a complete slog of an experience.
I don't really blame either party in a slug for 4k situation because if the killer tries to 4k the 'right' way and just hooks the second to last guy, they're forced to waste their own time in practically the same unfun situation, but the last survivor might just get a free escape instead. Either you CAN patrol or defend both of the gates, in which case you have to just waddle back and forth waiting for the survivor to show themselves, or you can't and you have to either just lose the last guy or risk an uninteresting 50/50 that feels unsatisfying even if you win it (and thats assuming the survivor doesn't just hide near a bad gate instead of going for hatch in the first place).
If you changed the end game after hatch close to something more fun, I guarantee you see less slugs for the 4k, because as it stands a killer's options when NOT doing that are either 'let the last guy escape' or 'deal with the same frustrating slog either way with no real reward for doing so'. -
@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4104721#Comment_4104721
Non-functional, lol. A bit overdramatic, isnt it?
You also completely forget that Dracula got some sizeable buffs since the PTB. This is honestly the Spirit-Discussion all over again when her phasing became directional. "On the PTB it was and it was bad!"… Yeah, guess what, this is some time ago.
Same applies for Dracula. He can be considered a Top 5 Killer, nerfing Wolf Form would certainly not kill the Killer. We are talking about a Killer who powercreeps a lot of other Killers and has some Killer Powers as a PART of his own power.
There are differences between good and bad nerfs, a character being strong on its own doesn't make any given idea that nerfs them a good one. There are plenty of good, reasonable ideas to nerf the character - no haste on orbs, take away the pallet break from wolf dash (and, as an aside, sliiiiiide that one right on over to pig pretty please), anticamp on hellfire - that wouldn't damage the basic functionality of their kit. Taking a crowbar to the back of wolf's legs isn't one of them.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4104712#Comment_4104712
On the one side we have PTB Feedback of a few hours and on the other side we have Live Feedback over almost 2 years. What is more valuable?
I think the PTB-Feedback regarding Wolf Form can easily be discarded.
Maybe if your goal is to make a third of Dracula's power practically non-functional. Its a terrible way to nerf the ability, you need to move at normal speed for the dash to be positioned effectively in a HUGE amount of loops, and to make it worth being in during chase to benefit from the scent orbs in the first place. 4.4 wolf would just result in Dracula players not using the form for the majority of the match.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
His Wolf form should be 4,4 and the Haste Orbs should grant it 4,6. He should not be 4,8 with the Haste orbs.
This was actually how it worked in the PTB, and pretty much everyone agreed it felt awful to play. The dash attack doesn't have any kind of slide attached, so you really need to be able to position it properly to use it well on a lot of common loops, and you can't really do that with a 4.4 killer who occasionally moves normal speed for 2 seconds.
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@dangersmymidd1ename said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4104670#Comment_4104670
Yeah but Third Seal is not used to stop survivors seeing windows, it is used so they can't see their teammates on the ground or on the hook, leading to everyone dying pretty quickly in solo queue. If they reduce it so that it is only the last 3 survivors instead of 4, it would be much better.
Its not really good for hiding hooks even in solo queue, in the vast majority of cases the hook bubble is more than enough to be able to remember where someone is on the map regardless of if you're affected by Third Seal or not. The usefulness in slugging is definitely true, but most of the time mass slugging is more powerful just committing to lethality and information anyways, and Third Seal is removable from the start of the match. It would be a lot better for blindness to just not affect slugs than to nerf a perk that isn't strong enough to warrant it.
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Its not a meta contender but I am insistent that Potential Energy is actually quite a good perk on its own merits after the last buff that made it 1-1. Very good for attacking 3 gens, isn't wasted if you have to dump it and run because its 1-1 so its not just lost time anymore, actually can help out with stealth early (or more situationally later on) if you're quick enough with it by disguising the first bit of progress you make, given it doesn't add to the noise or visuals on a gen if its stored in your back pocket so to speak.
Its also good against remote regression (especially Surge or Eruption) because you can gen tap to stop the regression before leaving, which also means it can be gen-uinely valuable to hold a couple tokens in reserve before you go for a hook save or the like so you can do the same there. Its not an exceptional A/S tier perk or anything, but it has some really nice features you can't get anywhere else, even with the danger that comes with holding a lot of tokens when moving. -
Its different to knockout because it works on all aura reading, and doesn't affect crawl speed or recovery - plus you need to apply it first, and its a hex. Knockout was way, WAY more of an issue, even compared to people trying to slug specifically with third seal. Windows is the most popular survivor perk in the game across almost all regions, and there are a decent few other perks that aura read from the survivor side that see play, so theres a real benefit to having blindness as an option to commit to.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4104418#Comment_4104418
unless you're slugging and activating these perks repeatedly, you shouldn't be hitting that limit until you have 6-8 hooks, right? I would expect the game to be nearly over by that point, or at least down to a 3v1.
Eruption is the biggest offender (moreso than surge) because you need to do the initial kick to activate it and then the followup also eats a regression event. Its not USUALLY a problem, but if you're playing a killer/strategy that tends to stick to a strong area like a 3 gen its not that uncommon to see it hit the limit. To clarify, thats not me complaining about regression limits as a mechanic, but eruption is a bit of an outlier by a little bit and I wouldn't be too upset to see it buffed by not counting the followup towards the limit.
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@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4104008#Comment_4104008
But none of those effects are actually strong enough to really warrant perk slots. I get what you are saying but this is why boons died out with circle getting killed. Without any actually good effects that will really help the team it's largely not worth running any boons even if it helps multiple people theoretically.
I genuinely understand where you're coming from, but I do disagree about their effects not being strong enough. The unfortunate truth is that even as far as support perks go, boons (when actually balanced, dark theory is in need of a buff and luckily likely to see one in the midchapter) are pretty much doomed to be unpopular. Its not necessarily a strength thing - I mean, circle of healing in its current state is actually a really solid effect, especially when combined with shadow step as a safe reset point - but they're both less self reliant and less consistent overall, especially if you don't have totem spots down (and who can blame anyone for that) or don't have a map with flint to run.
I mean, even some pretty crazy powerful perks see little play for these reasons, and boons are more upper mid tier solid effects. If game winning perks like Shoulder The Burden, or otherwise very strong perks like Duty of Care see very little play outside of the highest level, boons - which aren't these really extreme top tiers like shoulder or IMO deeply underrated support effects like Duty - don't stand a chance. And because they DO apply to the entire team for one perk slot, BHVR has to be really careful in how they're balanced, otherwise you get - like you mentioned - old Circle Of Healing, which was a good chunk of the survivor half of the worst overall meta to exist since the turn of this decade. -
@Elan said:
i still feel like people forgot diminished exist. How is Boon:Steafast any good? Bless time for 10 % and any other perk will be diminished. I saw somone saying steadfast with overzealous will be busted no. It will be diminished and result with 15 % max speed. I'm not fan of repair perks but those new perks whould be good enough to compete the meta so they can focus on older perks rather than increasing amount of joke perks. If the only effect of the perk was to hide aura of gens in range it would be 100 % better while still meh.
The point of boons isn't to be crazy efficient on its own merits as a singular person, they're team support perks. When I say it works well with a large number of perks, I'm not referring to stacking as much gen speed as possible, I'm talking alongside the other boon roster, Lend a Hand, Flow State, other perks that synergize without being direct increases. If you have bless speed bonuses, or other boon perks, it becomes MUCH more time efficient. Its not going to be hard meta or anything, but its easily a decent perk even just considering the parts of it that are a boon version of Prove Thyself that still boosts solo repair.
At its absolute worst (numbers wise), assuming one instance of diminishing returns on every single person working the gen, the effect is still a teamwide Deja Vu that has the downside of setting time and being temporarily removable, but the upside of only taking up one perk slot to benefit multiple people and not needing any individual person on your team there to get the benefit. I would also like to point out that Deja Vu AND Prove Thyself both see play as reasonable picks. -
I think its also important to remember that, being blunt, while Jason is a strong killer, he was also kind of a MASSIVE seal clubber on release. The reaction to OE was really surprising to me, and overwhelmingly favoured Jason before people started figuring out how to play against him - a lot of people would crouch regardless of the situation and give him free slowdown for nothing, or run under pallets / to windows during OE. A lot of his release power (not counting Deputies' Badge being bugged to be dramatically stronger, or how strong Sauna Rock was) was more from very common survivor mistakes that had a huge impact on the match, and as those keep happening less and less, he's going to become less of an outlier in terms of strength, though he still has a bit too easy of a time patrolling hexes specifically IMO.
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Interesting that each region has a different most picked killer, kind of surprised to see the US having so many springtraps to the point he takes the lead. We are doomed to eternal Weskin' Time, I'm afraid, though it could be worse as Weskers are pretty fun to go against.
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@Lethal_premium said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4103503#Comment_4103503
It still has the same hold W problem, and it's free distance with no skill required which is not healthy IMO.
The majority of really good perks on both sides have fairly simple activation conditions. Lithe is much more interactive than sprint burst because it actually involves either pathing to a window or using up a removable resource, both of which are things the killer can plan around or otherwise do something about. Sburst is universally very strong regardless of almost any position, dead ends aside. Lithe is also much, much worse for macro movement as a fast vault will reveal your location without Quick And Quiet, so using lithe to rush for a heal on a teammate or to get somewhere important might as well be strapping a 'please come smack me' sign to your back.
Its also affected by counter options significantly more. Take mindbreaker for instance, even if you have vigil to reduce the time, walking for 3 seconds can actually affect whether you get hit or not with lithe - with sprint burst and vigil its kind of trivial to just ignore it in most chases, because you can use the speed boost the exact moment exhaustion ends. (Plus, you know, lithe actually caring about perks like languid touch or genetic limits). Unlike sprint burst it doesn't work as a get out of jail card against killers using ambush strategies, spotting someone visually isn't enough, you actually have to get to a vault point.
Also, I wish people would stop the cope on 'no skill required' when sprint burst being a problem is BECAUSE its far too much power for better players. Sprint burst is actually really not very good for newer players or people who don't have the perk down particularly well, its relatively easy to waste if you struggle with some of the decision making, the problem with Sburst is the lack of meaningful counterplay or restrictions on a perk that had an outsized effect once you got good with it. Its not a braindead perk stupid people use to cheese games or whatever people want to try and claim, its just overtuned for what it does and how. -
@100PercentBPMain said:
are we supposed to feel bad about this or something? SB and Lithe have warped the game for far too long just like Nurse has.
Lithe isn't even vaguely a problem! It has almost none of the actual issues sprint burst has, there is no reason to touch the perk.
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Name a SINGLE real exhaustion perk in the games ENTIRE lifespan that has actually been nerfed to the point its no longer very strong. An incredible perk with no meaningful counterplay for the majority of the killer roster going from S tier to A tier and being put in line with other exhaustion options is not a 'gutting', and unless you're going to try and pretend old dead hard was fine actually or that it isn't still an incredible perk (or for the truly insane, complain about balanced landing no longer being infinite), I'm struggling to think of a single meaningful nerf to exhaustion perks that has even lowered their position in the hierarchy before this one. Even the changes to Background Player (which was only in the state it was by being BUFFED a decent while after release!) was more of a rebalancing to make it healthier, and a lot of players who used it PREFER its current state due to being able to use it on almost any down.
You could REALLY stretch and point out Adrenaline no longer unhooking you healthy and having its duration reduced, but Adrenaline isn't even vaguely what people refer to when talking about 'exhaustion perks' any more than they're talking about Rapid Response or Head On, and even then Adrenaline is about to get its duration BUFFED from its current state anyways. This 'constant nerfing of exhaustion perks' is quite literally in your own head and nowhere else. -
The problem with sprint burst isn't that the activation requirement is easy, its that other exhaustion perks have to devote either pathing or resources in a way that can be played around, AND have more limited usage in macro situations. Its just better at everything!
Its one of the best options for attacking generators during late game by forcing a killer to either overcommit or go away regardless of where that gen actually is. If theres a close unhook situation and the killer goes after the unhooker, it lets you reposition around the map for heals faster without giving away your position and needing a vault point (lithe) or needing more specific locations (balanced landing) while ALSO being good against tunneling in the opposite instance. It makes prerunning before you even got into a chase to begin with EXCEPTIONALLY stronger and you can do that from anywhere, regardless of the map or individual location aside from dead end gens (which would make lithe and balanced just as useless). Its even better against stealth killers without a terror radius, given you can instantly react to spotting them unlike other perks.
Not only that, but it suffered significantly less from counters to exhaustion. Notoriously, Vigil + Sprint Burst is as much a counter to Mindbreaker as the other way around for non stealth killers as its trivial to just walk for 3 seconds during a chase, and that might as well just be handing them a free 99%, and the perk just doesn't care about Genetic Limits or Languid Touch.
Its better than basically every other option against the VAST majority of the killer cast at higher skill levels (and I'm not talking competitive here, I mean higher skill in the general playerbase) and its not even going to be bad after the nerfs! Its STILL going to be strong! I'm not sure why it being put more in line with the strength of other exhaustion options is some kind of cataclysmic issue, here. -
Not counting perks that benefit (residual manifest/champion of light) an underrated aspect is also that it just kind of helps you get better at using flashlights if you're not confident with them. The killer breaking a pallet is a very low stress environment to work on your muscle memory of how long it takes to blind, where to aim with the flashlight (on killers that aren't chucky at least), things like that.
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I'm actually going to go with an original chapter here and say I'd love to see a sequel chapter to End Transmission, we've not got much in the way of sci-fi horror (not to mention one of our only examples remains kneecapped for stupid reasons while a nebulous rework might happen some day, eventually, maybe.) and the universe portrayed by the lore of Gabriel and HUX seems very ripe for other stories in that setting. I could easily see a prospective killer using the cloning tools to do human hunting on the same character(s) over and over before even getting pulled in by the entity, for example.
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The majority of people even in a 4 person SWF aren't maximized hit squads who are going to blow 5 gens in as many minutes and 4 out you every time, and those groups really aren't exactly common, even after you hit soft cap. Sure, playing with other people has a lot of advantages - less reliance on information perks or items, active communication for things like saves, the ability to coordinate perks and strategies before a match etc. - but that doesn't make them unbeatable, especially for high tier killers. I also don't know why people just kind of…don't acknowledge the fact that a lot of people playing together aren't in 4 stacks all the time? There are a LOT of duo and trio queues in DBD, its not some binary switch between 4 solos and a full team.
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I feel like dissolution is a perk that should probably see some kind of rework. My immediate thought is that it should slowly decay drop pallets until they break (like, over the course of a minute, maybe? Its a bit hard to gauge the strength of a perk that doesn't exist, so time can be varied down or up as needed). Currently, the perk is either useless or creates no-win uncounterable situations for survivors, and is one of the few perks still in the game that I'd call broken by design, regardless of winrate.
Oh, and swap literally every single restriction off of Nothing But Misery over to Blood Favor, including the M1 requirement to get value. Absolutely baffling that shutting down all pallets in a large area is just 'here you go lad' while a 5% hinder after a hit takes 4 years and an ID check at the gate to activate, nonsense design philosophy.
As for the other two, the 4 th one I'd like to see Detective's Hunch increase its timer and reveal the killer's aura as well, as it stands its just a worse version of essentially every other area info perk in the game, at least after the map changes lost its main gimmick.
5th would be a rework to Vee's Road Life, which would be: For each great skill check on a generator, gain a token up to 3. Each token increases heal speeds on other survivors by 20%, so capping at 60%. When you finish healing a survivor, road life transfers half of its current value to that survivor for X amount of time (A minute ~ 80 seconds seems like it'd be reasonable), then loses all tokens.