ThePeeje
ThePeeje
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@NoEdCrUtCh said:
”In my opinion” The spirit is a CRUTCH killer with no effective way to counter her ability other than stop running and hope for the best. “ Just my OPINION”
Spot on. That's exactly it. Amazing map pressure. And impossible to reliably counter. If youre uninjured and she hasn't used her OP broken add on that takes away the sound of her phase walking - then you may have a chance to sneak and hide. Same with Nurse. Same counter. The trouble is - the game can't be played in full stealth mode. There's ######### to do. Hex totems to break. People to save. And any time you're injured - you're dead. At best you might have a 50/50 chance.
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@Speshul_Kitten said:
Rank helps to prevent slaughters like this. Remove rank and people will stop playing because the FUN factor will be lost.
I fail to see how the result would be any different if they were 4 rank 1 swf survivors with mics and meta perks. Any P3 Rank 1 nurse with NC, BBQ, Pop and Ruin is getting a 4k. There is no way to escape that. I play rank 2 survivor and everytime i high rank nurse with those kind of perks is in a game, it's game over.
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My suggestion is to increase repair time but buff toolboxes so they're even faster than right now. Currently it's barely noticable. And i'd probably add a different item for sabotage. Otherwise toolboxes will be too popular.
This way, survivors have to choose:
Medkit to increase lifespan/heal others
Toolbox so gens don't take ages
Flashlight for saves/utility/blinds
Keys to escape/see killer (buff keys a little -at least in terms of non black lock stuff)
Maps (please buff maps! - should be more add ons to show everything to everyone - and more to leave a marker somewhere that everyone can see)
Saw - to sabotage hooks and cleanse totems quicker. I know cleanse isnt really something you do with a saw, but maybe another item could bridge the gap.
It just seems wrong that someone with a flashlight/medkit can repair almost as fast as someone with a toolbox. And sabo right now is so bad. Toolboxes do so much yet nothing particularly well.
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If something is too strong in this game and you point it out to people, you can expect they will tell you to get good. Even though presumably every time you play the game, you try to improve - and some things are just too strong and have no counter. But people are idiots, especially in this community. They wouldnt know game balance if it hit them over the head with a bonesaw.
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@TAG said:
"Overall too strong, as every killer brings it at high ranks"
It's not frequently seen in high ranks because it is too strong. It is seen because it is necessary for most Killers to bring some form of method to slow down the game to avoid being gen rushed.
Also, your Ruin seems ridiculous. If a person is going through a gen solo and does not have a meaningful way to speed up gen progress, Ruin will almost flat-out prevent any progress for someone who can't consistently hit Great Skill Checks for up to a whopping 70 seconds total. Sure, people could start scavenging for Totems and maybe even knock out Ruin quickly, which cuts it off, but then that means Ruin's effect on the game is even more wildly varying (ranging from near-useless as is the current worst-case scenario to grinding Survivor progress to a halt). I don't think that's the sort of band-aid we should have to deal with gen rushing.
Your first paragraph makes no sense. Whats the difference between its necesary and its strong? Yes, without it, the game is too hard for most killers. i agree. with it, however, on average the game is too easy. not always. its inconsistent. but on average, its the best perk in the game. if it lasts 2 mins, its already wasted so much survivor time. only a 1 min cleanse and youd have to say its only performed ok.
Your second paragraph i also dont understand, why would it prevent any gen progress? Firstly the intervals are more consistent, but on average less. maybe make it 1 per 15 seconds then. whatever amount that would mean you can progress through it, even hitting good skill checks, but itll be slow. but they can just eat the bad ones and then itll run out. OR they can go look for the hex totem. and even if they dont find it, they can at least weaken it by doing other totems. how is that worse than now? Entire games are currently won and lost based on that perk and how long it stays up for.
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Additional problems with it:
Affects new players too much and experienced players too little
Affects solo queue much worse than SWF without knowledge or a gameplan
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@Kind_Lemon said:
I thought this was going to be a post about how Ruin unfairly targets survivors with low framerates. This was not that post. Those other perks are not skill based unless you have a definition that most people don't have. Rewarding good plays is not "skill". What you are saying is like declaring that a perk that helps in breaking the pallet instead of running around it is skill based (i.e. Brutal strength).
Well, firstly i did mention frame rates a couple of times. The game is still horrendously optimised and even on a 1060 i struggle to get over 50 FPS, on xbox it feels more like 30 some of the time. I know skill checks are on the client side but they are still a nightmare to hit at times.
As for whether a perk is skill based ot not, perhaps i just use the phrase to mean the opposite of RNG based. If Brutal Strength meant every time you broke a pallet, it might take longer, or it might take shorter, its a roll of the dice, then its RNG based. But BS is a consistently useful perk with guaranteed results. But BS is genuinely skill based in the sense that a player can choose to break pallets or not. Maybe i run BS and i shape my playstyle to maximise shredding pallets?
In the same way, Pop Goes the Weasel is skill based in that 1) i have to down and hook a lot of survivors to get a lot of use out of it. and 2) i have to carefully select my targets, the hooks i take them to and the gens i kick. For example if i chase someone who just finished a gen in the corner of the map, that is low skill if you have Pop. If i leave them and run on to find a gen that is 90% complete and i am able to down them close by, hook and kick the gen - thats rewarding my skill.
Thanataphobia is also skill based, in that if i simply tunnel one player, i'm showing low skill and being punished for it. If i tailor my play style to injure 4 at a time, i'm being rewarded for that.
Ruin SHOULD reward killers who guard their totem well. It should be something that either lures people in and you ambush them. OR you guard your totem and everyone just ignores it and you lose for that reason.
But what happens is most killers treat Ruin like the perk that calls the entity to block gens. Just take it and forget about it. Which IS 100% luck based then. No skill or thought or planning from the killer. Just pray to the RNG gods. Bad devs.
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This is my proposal based on the feedback from you guys:
Ruin version 2.0!
Ruin would be something a killer can apply to any dull totem.
It would have a more consistent numbers of skill checks. (guaranteed one per 7-14 seconds)
Every good skill check does -2% progression for every dull totem on the map.
Every great skill checks does -1% progression for every dull totem on the map.
But its effect lasts for 5 or 10 skill checks, OR until it is cleansed.
Benefits:
+ Killer can ensure its well hidden.
+ Survivors can counter this by observing the killer and checking out where they were before Ruin triggered.
+ Killer can protect their totem better and it can't get cleansed too fast
+ The affects will definitely be felt, but it won't last forever and can be endured for the period it works.
+ Solo survivors won't have to guess whether they should search for the totem or not. Basically if they know where the killer was, they should go look for it. If they havent even seen the killer, just endure it.
+ The increased penalty even to great skill checks means it still affects pros.
+ More consistent skill checks gives it a more consistent affect.
+ Won't stack well with other hex perks, making players choose between Haunted Ground, DH or NOED.
+ Also encourages survivors to begin the match cleansing dull totems, so Ruin will start out weak. This in turn wastes survivor time, even in matches where Ruin is never used!
What do you guys think?
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@Kast said:
I agree with your very first post. Ruin’s RNG is very unpleasant. I almost never find it until it’s already too late. Even from a Killer’s perspective it’s a crutch. I have had many instances where survivors would IMMEDIATELY DC once they realize that there’s a Ruin.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/045/6ZZ0K5NHJSSK.jpeg
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/378/6JJ7CPOXRQKU.jpeg
In one of my games, the Ruin was literally inside of a dark and tall bush with only one entrance in and BARELY seeing the flames glow on it. So here’s my question: WHAT AVERAGE PERSON IS GOING TO FIND THAT?! DX
I agree that it could use a rework. :)
Thanks my dude. This is what i was hoping for - a discussion about how to improve Ruin. I like the challenge of it. The secondary objective aspect. But it's far from perfect right now. Either too weak or too strong a lot of the time. But on average, it's certainly among the 4 strongest perks - arguably the strongest. Especially if you want to rank up, thanks to it being the one and only perk that boosts the generator emblem.
Can't believe i had to listen to a whole page of posts here saying ' Ruin is fine, Ruin is great, no one has any issues, get good'
I'm sure one day they'll tweak it a little for a more consistent (and less punishing on new players) experience.
My complaints are not usually about what i can handle, but about what 3 other randoms can handle. Especially if they're casuals or new.
And i know killers will feel so much better if they didn't have to run Ruin every game.
Actually, i think the purpose of Ruin SHOULD be to lure survivors into a trap. So when i used to main Hag, i would create a web of traps in the 1/3 of the map where it is and it usually worked. Ruin should have a specific purpose - one that suits campers. Where as a Wraith main should be able to take Thanataphobia instead and be rewarded for that hit and run playstyle.
Its just stupid that people dont even see their Ruin totem. They just take it and dont even bother protecting it. Because on average it'll be useful regardless.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/651455#Comment_651455
I mean I still think whether Ruin is fine or not is based on an opinion. Some people don't mind the rng and like having a second objective that is searching for the totem. I think cancer is a bit of a different topic. That's not based on anyone's opinion.
For me personally though Ruin right now is a necessary evil, otherwise games can go way to fast when playing a weaker killer. I don't mind the perk. Of course if there was a way to make it less rng, I wouldn't mind. I really like your idea of having it just be the first 10 skill checks for every survivor and after a survivor had 10 skill checks the skill checks for that survivor return to normal. Something devs could consider in my opinion. But I do not mind the way the perk is right now and it seems like many other don't eiher. Once again some probably like that it kinda adds a second ojective.
I agree that Ruin can have quite an effect on how a match goes. But once again there is enough other rng that can affect a match's outcome, such as addons/items and map rng. I've also seen teams do very well with Ruin up very long because they are good at hitting great skill checks.
If there is one thing I really don't like about Ruin, than it's the fact that it does hurt lower ranks more than higher ranks. At high ranks the perk seems balanced, albeit based somewhat on rng, but on lower ranks this perk can seem a bit overpowered.
Yes exactly! It's always bad balance in a game where you feel you should morally weaken yourself because something is OP at certain ranks. I would like to be able to go full tilt at any rank, but below R8-10, ruin plus try harding, even with no tunnel or camp - will probably lead to a 4k. unless theyre swf and/or find ruin early. Ofcourse a game's outcome is decided so much in the first minute. Thats why Ruin is so powerful. If they get 0 gens done in the first 2 mins, compared to 3 gens done, thats a whole different outcome.
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@JnnsMu said:
I agree with you. I think that Ruin should be playable but not as necessary as it is right now. I would like to see something similar to how they handled Brutal Strength back when you couldn't play Killer without it. Back then, they increased the base Pallet Breaking Speed and nerfed Brutal Strength. If we just slow down the vanilla game a bit, that would allow for a Ruin nerf. General progression nerfs could just be an increase to the generators' timers. This would be suboptimal because sitting on generators longer is boring but a strong Ruin spawn amounts to the same thing and at least this way, it would be consistant. For the Ruin nerf, fixing the perk would probably be enough. Keep the perk's description and numbers exactly as they are but remove that infuriating cooldown time for progression after you get a Good Skill Check. Just having the 5% would still encourage going for Great Skill Checks and the perk would probably still be viable but it would get a lot less oppressive. Actually giving regular Blood Points for Good Skill Checks might also discourage survivors from looking for the totem and make it more consistant.
Thats exactly it! They did it a few times in the game. The base gen time really does need increasing. OR find another, more creative way to slow the game at first. The fact that killers are forced to rely on a lucky perk at the highest ranks is a problem i couldnt allow to stand if i was one of the devs. I can allow truly high risk high reward perks to remain - because theres a high chance they do nothing so wont make it into the meta.
Thanataphobia could do with a buff. Fire It Up needs a buff (an alternative to nerfing gens).
Something i might suggest would be if every gen needs maybe an initial 5-10 seconds warm up. Something that maybe has no skill checks, doesnt make noise and if you stop, it wont show the gen as being worked on. That would both add time to gens, but also allow for the player to hide if the killer came right at them at the start.
I could either envisage Ruin being far harder than it is now, or do more of a regression penalty - but have a limit to what it can do. So you either endure the penalty and wait it out - or quickly search your local area for it.
Another possibility would be if it did -1% progression for every dull totem on the map - so it would start at 5% if you have no other hex perks. But would be only 3% if you also had Haunted Grounds. Or 4% with TotH. And that way, when you go around looking for totems, you could cleanse them instead of running past. Also i'd like to see skill checks being less random when you have Ruin. A guarantee of x number per minute would make it not potentially useless.
AND it would discourage players taking Ruin + Noed.
Because i'll tell you what - Ruin + NOED vs solo queue = 4k. Pretty much every time.
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@Krustykerbz said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/651083#Comment_651083
No I got your point. But I don’t think making ruin more skill based is the answer. I think it has a lot more to do with game mechanics and the reason why ruin is being run so much. There’s no stopping 4 toolboxes with brand new parts from completing 5 generators within 5 minutes even with ruin. It all goes back to gen completion times and both sides agree on it.
Ruin’s rng is necessary to running the perk. It’s high risk high reward. Any decent group of survivors at high ranks ( from solo to swf) is going to find ruin within 2 minutes tops. So most decent killers don’t even run it.
I hope you're aware that BNPs used to do an entire generator instantly! That isn't any kind of conclusive proof to invalidate your point - they could still be strong now. But my god have they been nerfed to hell since then. 4 man swf could literally leave you with 1 gen inside 20 seconds! RIP BNP. I dont even bother with them in the bloodweb. Not worth 7000. Ebony mori on the other hand - while also nerfed, are no where near as bad.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/650505#Comment_650505
Why the hell do you even start a thread when you can't handle any feedback that doesn't represent your opinion in the first place? I get your point, but some people may think otherwise. Seems a bit weird to get so offended because of that.
I agree that Ruin is a bit too RNG based. But it's not like the outcome of a match solely depends on when Ruin gets destroyed, in my opinion. Hex: Devour Hope is if anything more RNG based, since you either find it fast enough so it becomes useless for the killer, or you don't find it and the killer wrecks you with that perk. And personally I feel like there is a lot of rng that affects the outcome of a match beyond Ruin. Simply just the addons and items a killer or survivor might bring into the match.
Ruin is very strong, that is a fact. Otherwise why has it been THE number 1 perk since it came out. Always been number 1, at most ranks. They used to show it in dev streams'. So any efforts to say its insignificant, its weak, its easy to counter - all nonsense . It can be weak if you get unlucky. Most of the time its a very worthwhile perk - and once in 4 or 5 games it'll be the single biggest contributor to an easy 4k. It's almost like rolling the dice on having a mori. It could be a yellow mori, likely a green mori - but 1 in 5 could be ebony mori and no one stands a chance.
And because of this RNG, no one can say exactly for sure how strong it is, because it fluctuates.
I also object to it because 1) frame rates on console are disguisting. Very hard to hit them. and 2) it punishes low ranks really hard. I actually sabotage myself playing at low ranks by not taking it. Because i know they will have 0 chance to survive. I use it basically rank 8 and up.
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If it was actually high risk high reward - why is it every single killer at high ranks runs it? Seems to me its medium risk, very high reward. Otherwise it would be optional.
As for Devour Hope - THAT is high risk high reward. Because theres a decent chance you get absolutely nothing out of it. And a small chance the perk singlehandedly wipes the floor with survivors.
Its my personal belief that all perks should be balanced to the point where there's no meta. I think survivor meta died some time ago - once SC was nerfed and now DS.
Currently Ruin, even if destroyed after 1 minute - is still better than most other perks. Only if its gone inside 30 seconds is it worse than most other perks. If it lasts 2 mins, it's already done far more than any other perk could - and it was pure luck.
I hated it when SB was such a dominant exhaustion perk. I like variety. We have that now. Adrenaline, Lithe, DH, SB, BL - everyone has a favorite and theyre fairly even. I would like gen stopping to also be a close one.
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@Krustykerbz said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/650505#Comment_650505
Then don’t post on the forums if you’re afraid that people don’t agree with you. On one hand hand you’re saying it’s a necessity for killers to run it, and on the other hand you’re saying games are too easy without it? Rng makes the perk manageable , which means there’s a way to play against it( I.e hitting the skill checks or just plain finding the totem) and like others have said “ high risk high reward”.Ruin is just a temporary in game solution to a massive game mechanical problem, which is genrushing. I’m talking about ranks 4-1 btw where if you don’t have ruin up against coordinated swf groups you’re gonna get steamrolled with insta heals and coms alone.
Seems like youve missed my point entirely.
I dont mind people having a different opinion to me. What i dont appreciate is some noob telling me im factually wrong. In my opinion, mushrooms might be delicious. But if you complain about their texture - im not going to say youre wrong, theyre awesome. How can you be wrong if youve eaten mushrooms 2000+ times. Theres a difference between someone suggesting something and you arguing with if it would be better or not. Its another thing to say that someones vast experience with the perk is incorrect.
I could see how insanely strong it was immediately when the Hag chapter released. I immediately got it on every killer as soon as i could. Ive barely dropped it in all these years.
I agree the game is too hard for killers without it. But it can also be useless. And i personally feel the game can do better than that. Every other time waster is directly attached to skill. This is how ridiculous Ruin is:
"Dear Entity - how long will i have to kill survivors this game?"
"This game, you shall have 4 minutes, because Ruin will get found and cleansed almost immediately"
(next game)
"Dear Entity - how long will i have to kill survivors THIS game?"
"Good news killer! Ypu'll have 15 minutes - they won't be able to find it until the 8th minute - its upstairs in a house next to a cupboard"
"Easy 4k it is then :/"
Neither of these sounds good to me. Why do i deserve an easy 4k or a high speed gen rush with 3 perks all match?
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Nothing is as RNG as Ruin. As i stated many times now, there's multiple layers of RNG. It can be 3 perks for almost the entire game. Or it can be 100+ difficult skill checks.
As for the nonsense argument about people being so good that the skill checks dont affect you - ummm, yes they do! They affect everyone. If you can hit great skill checks, you would otherwise be getting +5% progression. Instead - 0%.
And its not about you or me. Its about the communty. Every season i go back down to R12-8 somewhere. And the people there cant hit them. If Ruin is up for more than 2 mins, its pretty much curtains. Maybe a good player can take the hatch, if youre lucky.
Again, i'm not personally that bothered. Except when my frame rate is low, then theyre hard to hit. I can hit them usually every time. Its not about me, its the other 3 randoms. How do you know if they can hit them or not? Maybe you power through yours, but no other gens get done. I tried that, and we got screwed by Ruin nearly every time.
Unlike you, ive taken notes on my games, using Marth88's spreadsheet. And i found a massive correlation between Ruin (and how long its up) and escape rate. A perfect correlation infact.
While i appreciate two of you jhave many hours in game, even more than me somehow, despite playing this full time for like a year. But ok, well done. However i was saying that in response to people giving me noob advice like 'just gen tap.' or 'just look for it'. Like i havent faced Ruin literally 2000+ times already?
As for RNG on the maps, it makes a little difference. The game is about adapting to your environment. Scouting out, paying attention. There is none of that with Ruin. Its funny how much people complain about the RNG with pig traps and bear traps - and yet Ruin is far worse. 1 in 6 chance - and they're not even shown to you, unlike Saw machines.
In summary - im not asking for a buff. or a nerf. I'm asking for Ruin to be more consistent. Less luck based. Perhaps a higher minimum impact - and a lower maximum impact. Why is that unreasonable?
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" because Ruin is largely coin-flip for game duration"
Couldn't have put it any better myself. Not even one coin flip, but many:
Will survivors have many skill checks or few?
Will they try to do the skill checks or look for the totem?
Will they find it early or will Ruin last all game?
Does the survivor have the skills (or framerate) to consistently hit the skill checks?
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Thank you, some one gets it.
I remember a time when killer perks were reasonably balanced and survivors had a very clear meta. How times have changed. Survivor meta has never been more diverse and balanced - with genuine counters to all survivors' strongest perks (DS - dont tunnel, BT go for the unhooker). Now killer meta is pretty much set in stone - Ruin, BBQ, NOED and whatever perk suits your killer most. Killers need variety too.
I'm not calling for a pure nerf. Just make it's outcome a little more quantifiable - so that its exact values can more easily be tweaked to give more consistent results.
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Just to add to the last message - can we all agree that a match without Ruin is too easy? It is for me anyway against most killers. You smash those gens in no time. Unless its a very skilled killer, 3 gens should be done before they can down me up until the highest ranks. Then you get Ruin and suddenly youre relying on everyone else. If i dont look for Ruin, i swear most of the time no one even finds it. So for that reason, i always look for it. Because the other thing is that no one seems to be able to handle Ruin skill checks.
So basically.. in a match with Ruin, i'm praying for luck all match. Sometimes get it, sometimes dont. How is that a better gameplay experience than using skill every game?
Also from a killer perspective, its horrible that you MUST choose Ruin, or face a very hard game. So yet again - praying as killer for RNG.
No one should be praying to the Entity for luck. No one.
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Thanks guys, but i dont need anyone to tell me im wrong thanks. You dont play 1700 hours on PC since 2016, 300 on xbox since and not know what youre talking about.
I get it, some people find it fun to face against.
Some people dont begrudge weak killers having the edge.
But what no one has refuted is the enormous amount of RNG involved with this perk - which in no way rewards skill. Its a roll of the dice. I get that casual players might like that. But i dont like winning or losing based on luck.
Finally, swf do have a big advantage. They know whether they can handle the skill checks or not. They know whether everyone is going to just check their nearby area. So many times, i see another survivor running the same direction as me, over the same area, which is clearly a complete waste of time.
So look guys, i've been right on so many things getting changed. For every weak or OP perk, there's been people like you who defend it. But the devs arent stupid. If they check their stats, they'll see that even if overall the results end up balanced, if they look closer, theyll see the final outcome is totally linked to the survival of Ruin. Less than 1m, 3 or 4 will survive. Over 3m - easy 4k. I charted the stats once in my own games and it was conclusive.
Every single perk that was OP or too weak - they have since buffed or nerfed. Bar none. Even SC, BT, DS - they nerfed them all. I don't know why they havent changed Ruin yet, but i'm 90% sure they will eventually. It's far from a top priority. But killers shouldnt have to rely on a luck based perk. Gen times need to be slowed anyway. Without Ruin its an easy win. With it, no amount of skill can get you out the door.
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Counter: Unbreakable
If this happens enough, killers wont slug.
Plus slugging is detrimental to most killers at most levels when all 4 are alive.Plus if this perk is so weak, then not many people will run it. Which means if a killer slugs you thinking you have DS, bit actually you have Unbreakable instead, then they kjust ruined their flow and momentum for no reason!
So let me explain whats gonna happen. Not many people will use DS. Itll probably be present once in every 2 games. Killers wont worry about it too much. Theyll just play as normal, get hit by it, and in some rare cases, the survior will escape at the end of a match. In most cases, DS will cause some momentum loss to the killer half way into the game, allowing survivors to save and heal someone else on a hook.
Its like NOED. Even though so many killers have NOED, still, so rarely do survivors cleanse all totems. Itll be the same for killers. They would be dumb to assume everyone has DS.
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Day 1 I'd take the 20 or so weakest perks on both sides, and increase one numerical aspect of them by about 10-20%, plus also buff maps.
Day 2 i'd put in place a plan for the hatch/end game.
Day 3 i'd fix Nurse so she's easier for noobs, harder for pros.
Day 4 i'd add additional objectives, perhaps optional one's to boost your score. -
I believe they need to make her easier to pick up for newbies and also not as powerful once mastered. Its an issue with her skill cap. She reminds me of playing a football game on 'manual' rather than auto. Nearly impossible at first, but allows for so much more once mastered.
Not sure why they couldnt just speed her movement or leave it the same, and slow her attacks, but show where they are going to land.
Alternatively, they could make successful hits have a really long fatigue, but misses have a much lower fatigue. Personally i preferred it where you hold it down to travel greater distances. Was easy for me to understand and predict, both as killer and survivor. Now, i know a lot of Nurse mains like the changes as theyre even harder but even more powerful.
However i cant see them changing her again.
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Umm... i just watched streamer Monto destroy survivors with MM in no time. He didnt seem to have any issues with getting EW. Are you sure its not just you?
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Speaking of Tenacity, something i wish the devs would do to balance SWF with solo queue is to reveal which perks everyone is using. Tenacity and Unbreakable would be much more useful if each of us knew who has those and could distract the killer to enable it to work.
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My idea for gen rework is simple. 4 survivors = 6 gens need to be fixed. Every time someone dies = -1 gen required. So 3 left mean only 5 needed. 2 left only 4. 1 left only 3.
This means if the killer doesnt camp and tunnel, they have 6 gens of time. So itll be best to weaken them all and slug. Tunneling wont pay so well.
It wouldnt be perfect. But could be more balanced and more fun. -
Sorry mate. Of the ideas i read, only the gen tapping and traps bringing players down a level of health and failing the skill check one also was good. The rest - OP for killers. Some are way too game changing. Hag needs a counter and crouching is fine. For example.
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SC is a really strange case. Some argue its totally OP. But as you say, it is counterable. Early game its neglibibly better than nothing. But late game its a life saver. The problem comes from the fact that its a very selfish perk. Because it doesnt really benefit the team very much at all, but benefits the individual a lot. Especially late game.
Its hard to know what to do with it. I would either make a very slow heal possible without any perks. Thus it would be a small upgrade rather than a game changer.
Or i would just nerf SC to 30% and ensure med kits were plentiful in the chests on every map. Not sure how many chests there are usually, but i'd make it so that if there were 5 chests on a typical map - 1 would have a key, 1 would have a flashlight, 1 would have a toolbox, 1 a map and any additional chests would have med kits.
Or i'd make a game changing alteration and put a place on the map that survivors can go to heal. A slow heal, but a heal none the less. If the killer knows where it is, that they can use it to find survivors. Perhaps it could even be in the basement, or the shack.
The people have spoken loud and clear. They want to be able to self heal!
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Yup. Well devs have been known to listen to low rank feedback way too often. I hope they get gud at balancing soon.
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Yeah its a good shout. Killer is pretty weak at the end of the match. I'm not sure how that would work though.
Maybe either just the speed boost or just the 1 hit ability by default.
However... if it was too strong and survivors always had to cleanse all the totems - NOED wouldnt catch anyone by surprise. and thus it would rarely ever spawn. I could see a strengthened small game would become a lot more useful and take away from some of the meta perks.
At the same time though, i dont think NOED is as crucial as the others mentioned above. I mean, SC is just so far beyond meta its ridiculous. No one wants to have to rely on others. especially in solo queue.
An alternative fix to SC would be to either allow SC to kick in when someone or multiple people die. Because this is when SC is most crucial. Where as early on its not such a problem to get healed. I really feel that self healing is just something people want and need in the game.
BBQ, while very strong, is just kind of needed because without it, you may as well camp or not wander too far. i said for a year now that i'd be happy to give every killer a weak version of bbq for free. its actually helpful.
And Ruin is a perk most killers despise but still use because theres no other choice. It simply does such a good job, despite being entirely RNG dependent. A weaker Ruin, longer gens and improved Thanat would make Ruin go right down.
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Yeah. Also notice how the stats they use at siege are based on platinum and diamond ranks? Not casual or bronze or newbies.
Same for us. It should be either rank 1. Or prestige 3. Or ranks 1-5. Or players with 500+ hours. And just let low ranks deal with it. -
I had a good long look for that info, which was available on previous dev streams. But this is all i could find. And yes, that info is hugely important in balancing the game. Its amazing theyve had that info for years and still done nothing about it. Here's hoping for a year 3 balance patch to perks.
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p.s. here's the pick rates of some of the survivor perks. they may look small, but you need to multiply the numbers by 4 to get the real percentage of players who use the perk.
So if you think about it, of players who played the game a LOT to get P3....
84% are running SC.
48% run SB
36% BT
36% DSNow, when you add those up, it comes to 204%. Out of 400%. That means 4 perks have a higher pick rate as the other 50 or so perks combined!!! This is like the 99% all over again. We dont appreciate the huge wealth disparity in society and we shouldnt have such disparity among DBD perks either.
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Btw when you look at the pick rates of perks, my buff/nerf list is at least partially vindicated. We don't know the win/loss rate of the perks. But if a perk has a tiny, tiny pick rate, chances are its a bad perk. I look at how Siege balances its operators and they publish charts that show pick rates and win rates and its generally a line, because people are usually smart enough to know good from bad.
BUT based on that, the devs balance their operators so theyre all roughly equal. Why can't dbd do that?
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Hey guys, sorry havent checked this for a while.
Sure i understand a lot of people may disagree with me. I just try to look at them all objectively and ask myself what it would take to destroy the meta? For example:
What would it take for small game to be as good as BT or UE or Lithe?
I tried to draw a line down the middle and call those perks balanced. perks like Lithe, Bond, Empathy, We're Going to Make It etc. Maybe i'm wrong, but they all feel like just the right level of quality/power/skill/risk. Even Unbreakable is balanced because its super powerful in rare situations, and useless in others.
Perks like SB are so strong that they make me want to pick them over more fun and balanced perks.
And i never ever play with perks like slippery meat or small game because i KNOW that they won't provide me anything like as much utility as the perks mentioned above.
I get it... some perks are for newbies. And some are powerful when combined with several others: distressing + Unnerving Presence + Overcharge for example. I also wouldnt want to buff Leader too much, since SWF could all run it and be OP. I get all of that.
But taking an objective view of all perks, i see zero reason to choose 80% of survivor perks and around 60% of killer perks. Wouldn't you rather be able to choose from among at least 50% of the perks and know they will provide you about equal utility?
Sorry, i just frigging hate metas. Its like in the old days of Halo, everyone using Battle Rifle. And then they started to buff other weapons so any weapon in the right situation could beat any other. That was so much better.
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Great ideas!
Sounds like more reason to lobby dodge. but at least then DS has some hard counters. and it requires time/effort to find a chest to get the shard. and it means varying levels of DS. Such a great idea.
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However i have posted on this forum that a perk needs to come out that hides your aura from the killer. Basically a BBQ counter.
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OP - either you're close enough to the hook to not be noticed, or you're far enough away that... even if the killer knows where you are, you should still be able to get to safety. And so what if the killer does find you? Once you learn to loop, you'll be glad if the killer does come after you rather than camp. so long as you stay alive long enough, your team mates will save the other guy, get him healed up and be doing gens. if you can't lose the killer or keep him busy for more than 30 seconds, then you're just not very good.
The exceptions to this are: Billy. And to a lesser extent Nurse.
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@SaltyKiller said:
@ThePeeje said:
DS needs real, hard counters. It already has soft counters like Enduring and situational soft counters like dropping on stairs.Enduring is not a soft counter to DS. Not unless, by some chance, you have level 3 Enduring and they level 1 DS. If they have level 3 DS then Enduring is not going to do anything meaningful. There's still going to be enough time for them to get half way across the map. The only exception to that is if you get extremely lucky and down them near the basement stairs.
That's why i called it a soft counter. It does counter it in some weak way. Therefore its a soft counter. But DS, like many other things, needs a true counter.. I think BBQ should have a counter too. More counters please BHVR
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exhaustion is now a downside. any more than 'not having a perk' is a bad side for DS after you use it.
SB has infinite use and enables someone to get to a pallet who otherwise may not. DS pretty much guarantees they get to a pallet when they definitely couldnt have - and its a bonus. but its also one time.Both are crazy OP.
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I'd be fine with just giving non obsessions nothing. Completely wasted perk. Yes that does benefit swf but thats a whole other issue. Theres really no reason 3 other players should get a perk equal to the obsession. That one player should be carrying all the pressure and risk. At the very least the other 3 should get a very weak version. 1 second on the escape instead of 3.sgtfuzz said:
I completely agree. And a diminishing return system done right would promote a the use of a variety of perks to be used. And right now i feel like there are too many "mandatory" perks that survivors and killers have to take in order to have a chance to be successful.Michael_Myers said:@sgtfuzz said:
Im fine with the current state of DS. What gets annoying when you come across a group of survivors that all run DS and Self Care like its mandatory. Maybe add in a diminishing returns system when you have players running the multiple of the same perk.SWF group all running self care, ds, dead hard, and sprint burst is rage inducing.
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AIts a good idea because why should one side get to play with friends, but the other side can't. thats the thing that ruins it for killers. that feeling of actually being bullied by a coordinated group. You cant really get bullied by 4 solos. They might outskill you. But if they do appear to coordinate well, thats down to skill, timing and good game sense. as opposed to 'hey everyone. hes doing this. come get him'. which requires zero skill.
2 player killer would be so much more fun.But they would need way more pallets. as killers would be eating them at doible the rate.
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Firstly, Thanataphobia needs a big buff. It should be an alternative to Ruin for high skill and active players. weaker in the short term. but better in the long term. Using both should really limit gen rush.
Secondly, they need to add more reason to sabo and cleanse totems.
Thirdly, more perks like Ruin and Thanat need to exist. There should be 3 or 4 choices that do the same thing, each with its own playstyle. Ruin can be played as a hit and hope kind of perk, or with TotH as a beacon to lure survivors into a trap. Thanat should be for high skill, active, non camper/tunnelers. And more need to be made.Something along the lines of: For every generator that gets fixed, a debuff of 10% occurs to every survivor. Or the opposite maybe. Permanent debuff, that goes away and maybe even increases their fixing late in the game.
Fourth: more perks could be made that speed gen progression, or buffs to leader/prove thy self/resilience and then increase gen time overall. Making those perks more desirable.
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The big thing i agree with OP on is... there's no place for SWF in ranked. You can't ever balance the game with such a different level for solo and 4 man swf. Its impossible. And solo is where real skill lies. No cheats. No cheese. Just everyone looking out for number 1. There's so much potential in this game if its solo only. So much lack of awareness that a killer can exploit. That will never be the case as long as swf is cheating their way to victory.
KYF or separate game mode for SWF. They need to get out of ranked.
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Double Wraith would be a cool combo. One to scare them into using SB and the other could appear the other side of the pallet they drop.
Sad that it takes two Wraiths to take down a single SB user.
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sorry trappyboi, its a fine question but in the wrong section. This here be the Balance Feedback sub forum. You'd best be taking your questions to the Lore section.
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A lot of good points! You know your stuff. The many near infinites are such a problem still. Especially on Badham.
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@Visionmaker said:
It should activate after 2-3 seconds of running in a straight line. That way it can't bait out hits or chainsaws.But just nerfing the values is really lazy.
good idea!
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@Visionmaker said:
@Boss said:
@ThePeeje said:
@Boss said:
I like it how it is.It shows that not every Perk needs a reward on it, you can fool around as much as you like.
If making it a challenge for yourself isn't enough of an incentive to run it, no one will blame you for not running it.Just don't use it.
Having a Perk be a complete burden is at least MUCH better than a Perk that's powerful with no downsides at all, like Sprint Burst and Decisive Strike.So then tell me: why would i ever use it? I want to use it. I'm down for a challenge. Survivor is too easy at high rank. But where's my incentive? I don't just want to die for no good reason. If i'm taking a severe handicap for both myself and my team: i want BP bonus. And it should at least synergise with some other perks.
Hard mode just makes no sense without an upside of any kind. I'd rather see it balanced so that its hard mode if you mess up, but not a big problem if you dont.
The incentive is to challenge yourself, i just said that. If that's not enough, then, again, feel free to not use it.
Lots of games have a hardmode without additional rewards.
They're not for everyone.
To me, they're worth for the sheer feeling of overcoming more challenging odds.And you end up challenging your teammates because you're a dead weight they have to carry.
I'm sorry, but three other survivors did not elect to start with 3 players and a bodybag that gets off on handicapping the team.
Exactly. When i see a No Mither player on my team, i just think ;you crazy fool. youre gonna get us all killed'
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@Boss said:
@ThePeeje said:
@Boss said:
I like it how it is.It shows that not every Perk needs a reward on it, you can fool around as much as you like.
If making it a challenge for yourself isn't enough of an incentive to run it, no one will blame you for not running it.Just don't use it.
Having a Perk be a complete burden is at least MUCH better than a Perk that's powerful with no downsides at all, like Sprint Burst and Decisive Strike.So then tell me: why would i ever use it? I want to use it. I'm down for a challenge. Survivor is too easy at high rank. But where's my incentive? I don't just want to die for no good reason. If i'm taking a severe handicap for both myself and my team: i want BP bonus. And it should at least synergise with some other perks.
Hard mode just makes no sense without an upside of any kind. I'd rather see it balanced so that its hard mode if you mess up, but not a big problem if you dont.
The incentive is to challenge yourself, i just said that. If that's not enough, then, again, feel free to not use it.
Lots of games have a hardmode without additional rewards.
They're not for everyone.
To me, they're worth for the sheer feeling of overcoming more challenging odds.No, again you miss the point.
Look at it from the killers POV. I'm a pretty damn good survivor. What would they rather:
I take SB, DS, SC and BT? Or i take No Mither?
From my POV as a killer, i will throw the kitchen sink at that perk to make it viable, because i really want more people to use No Mither.
Let me tell you, from a killer perspective, No Mither = 4k. I see a No Mither player and i just smile. I've yet to find anyone with No Mither who was good enough to combat the downsides. Its just too detrimental. Why? Because sooner or later they have to make a save. So either they dont save. or they do and end up dead.
If youre gonna make a perk thats weak and challenging, people need a reason to use it. or they just wont.