Talmeer
Talmeer
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This thread, like many others, is a prime example for the low number of really viable killers in dbd and why the killer numbers are going down.
If survivors like to have different games with different killers and not to wait centurys for games to specific times, they should accept every killer.
If not, you guys getting only always the same killers, with a long waiting time. Deserved, that said.
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@Asian_D_lite81 said:
Ok went against legions all day and they need a nerf. They are able to stand there wait til you mend then hit you again, so frenzy lasts too long. Can hit you two times in a row and down you in frenzy due to the 5th hit downs you. In one match she hit me twice and downed me in frenzy, hit a team mate three times in one match like this too. Seems they are in their power all match long. Also hits you two times in a row while you are in deep wound and did not end their frenzy power like it says it will.
So... Let me get this right...:
You say that Legion mains should again abonden the game and play something else so that the survivors can even longer wait for a match?
Ok...
Maybe I follow your advice in the next days, depending how good the update is. I had no time to test it yet, but I know for sure that I won't play again a weak killer like the Legion after the first rework.
Seems like you survivor mains have either to adapt, or to live with a shrinking number of killers each month. I am interested to see how this plays out :)
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I would literally kill to get some sweet time with jill valentine or kate :) But since they are fictive characters, I don't need to kill... pew What a lucky boy I am^^.
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@IWantCandys said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/IHLNCYXXFZAT/20220423022606-1.jpg
This is gonna be long ....
The screenshot is from a friend of mine who just sent me after his last match. Well, he has hardly any experience in the game, he had played it a few months ago for a few hours but then gave up because all the matches were a torture for him. And I thought, after hearing about the new MMR changes, I'll tell him that now might be a good time to give it another try since BHVR now wants to protect newcomers from experienced players.
Well... you can see the screenshot.
This was a full swf on comms with meta perks bullying my friend the entire time with flashlights blinds , body blocks and pallet stuns like there was no tomorrow.
Now he doesn't want to touch the game anymore. He says if even the new matchmaking doesn't work, and there's no way to detect swf in the lobby screen, so he can dodge all swf, the game is just unhealthy for his mental health and he never wants to play it again. I've rarely seen him so upset.
However, that also got me thinking.
There is a problem , a problem that is not so easy to fix with a few tests and changes
Many Killer players have had this experience of my friend.
However, I keep reading posts where survivor say that they are still being matched absolutely unfairly, too.
My own matches (survivor and killer) have been mixed. Some were good but most of them still very stressful.
After the talk with my friend and some thoughts,
I now see the main problem with survivors and killers and so the main problem with the mmr and the unevenly matched players is that there are too few killers. Just that.
THIS is the root of all evil.
If there are too many survivors in the queue then any MMR changes will do next to nothing for BHVR.
1) From Survivor's point of view: There are too many Survivors and not enough Killers in the queue. The result is that the game always gives the survivor whichever killer is available, and as new killers like my friend get scared away, there are often only a few hardcore killer mains left (especially on peak times where most people have time to play) and so weaker survivor teams will still be matched with strong killers again and again, no matter how often they try to change the mmr system.
2) From the killer's point of view: As I said, there are too few killers in the queue. This means the game throws a random killer at the survivor team that has been waiting the longest in the queue, often an experienced full swf on comms. Again, the cap doesn't work as it should, the MMR gets out of balance, because if it worked as it should, some teams would never get a match.
The solution would be to make the game more attractive to killers.
The community is constantly fighting about buffs and nerfs for each side, but maybe if players were matched fairly, all the time, those arguments wouldn't be necessary at all. But this requires a balanced killer/survivor ratio with players of different skill levels.
But what does BHVR have to do to make the game more attractive for killers without completely destroying solo survivors?
Are we realistic, removing swf will never be a thing, they would lose more than half of the player base.
Bring solo queue closer to swf and then buff killer?
I don't know if that would really have the effect it needed, but maybe I am wrong and this could be a solution.
What do you think needs to happen to make the game more attractive to killers in order for the balance to be restored?
And please be realistic in your suggestions. It must not happen that one side suffers, so no suggestions with any mega buffs that would destroy the solo queue completely.
I told bhvr already this for years and they did not listen. Also I bet before and after me, hundrets did the same thing and told bhvr that there need fun to be in their game and not only statistic usage.
Years later, I see slowly coming all the bad predictions come together. I need to say, that is also entertaining sometimes.
Tl:dr You are right, but you won't achieve anything.
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blush
<3
Luckily wears the Legion a mask, so I can hide my red skin while i'm hunting Jill :)
Edit: Also the forum said that my body is 2 characters too short as I storted it with the heart first. That is a bit rude, thought the people would be a more sensitive and do no body shaming in the open society.... :D
:P
Edit²: Look at those eyes *rrr*
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I only bought the re3 remaster because of Jill Valentine. I don't know why, but the new version of her is well... damn... sexy for me.
Makes the game also harder. I mean, try to play a horror game while your eyes focusing on... uhm... teh booty... I would be such an easy victim in a zombay apocalypse :(
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Or maybe this picture would be fitting?:
:D
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@anarchy753 said:
Ruin was nerfed because it was too punishing for new players, not because it was too prevalent.
That said, any perk that is in >75% of matches should really be in line for a nerf.
You forget by this, that there always will be 75%+ perk*, on each side. It is sad, but human nature works like this.
Most people don't want to spend much time thinking on what is best in general, or what is best for themself, they just want to adapt to the easiest and fastest thing possible.
That is boring, but it is also unavoidable.
Edit: And that counts for both sides.
*If Bhvr moves not one day forward to a perk system that does not supports double, or trible perks of the same perks.
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@eloise said:
She is toooooooo op you need to nerf her please
Everybody who likes to nerf nurse should like to buff more killers. Otherwise the nurse playes jump just over to the next strong killer.
Should every survivor understand since you guys doing the same just with perks ;)
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
In my experience most of the "bad" players are on the killer side like "SWF shouldn't exist it's cheating and it's bannable" or "No Mither is OP" or some ######### like that.
Not saying there aren't terrible survivor mains, but from my experience interacting it just feels like there's more on the killer side.
From a philosophical standpoint is swf cheating, since it enables the survivors to see the killer at all times and you must be blind to see not their advantage.
That said, I don't see a reason to change anything on it. DBD is a multiplayer game and they are usually played by multiple people, so... That was to expect from everyone beforehand.
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Now is it official: Wienerschnitzel is worse than serial murder!
I said it once and I will say it again: Pommes mit Mayonnaise ist König! (French fries with mayonnaise is king!) Aka. I bet they are not banned and they are "good food" :D
:P :)
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It is important that killers also raise their voice - even if survivors don't like it sometimes. Past has shown it. So chillax and stay cool, hm?
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@Vampwire said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2873826#Comment_2873826
julie would listen to those i think
She is my number 1 :)
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I bet if they were german, they would listen to "Totenmond - Honigtraum" and that is a +AAA in my book!
If I am honest, I don't know similar bands from Canada... but they must exist there also^^!
Alternativly... Garbage works always with songs like "I am only happy when it rains", or "I am paranoid".
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The game would overall better do if it would trie more to be a horror game, instead of a competitive game, with all what that would mean.
Aka, stronger killers, more game modes, bigger maps and so on.
Also Behavior should harder work against dc'ers, hackers and all this cra. . Those people claim always that they have reasons to behave, like they behave, but imo... As soon someone dcs or hacks, he is toxic enough to see him not as an important part of the community anymore. Aka. such persons should faster meet a ban hammer.
Not everyone will be happy who read this but I was always for clear cuts, instead of having drama until the end of days... :|
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@egg_ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2873699#Comment_2873699
Against a survivor you just hit that will be able to make 0 distance because you have almost no cooldown on your hits while going at insane speed and being able to vault pallets too
Already to the time I played dbd has it give 1 hit killers, like meyers or bubba and survivor perks like dead heart. If all of those things got not changed, I don't see here a reason to complain besides that some people dislike the thought that Legion players might could also have fun in a match.
Fun should everyone have. Imo.
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@Somna said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2873660#Comment_2873660
It's not like Lethal Pursuer is a common pick for Legion anyway, nor do people start all clumped together very frequently, right?
Lethal Pursuer came up after I leaved dbd, as explained above, but after what I have read in the dbd wiki* is Lethal Pursuer a space goat that people might use to explain with it that terrible things will happen, but in reality nothing of it will happen at all.
Chillax a bit ;) :)
*Source: https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Lethal_Pursuer
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@egg_ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2873658#Comment_2873658
@GoodBoyKaru here, now it is answered
Nice, legion will go back to being a "kill myself on hook" killer.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2873660#Comment_2873660
No
Aha... And that means?
I need to admit, my knoweldge is a bit rusted about dbd. After the Legion rework in 2019 I stopped playing the game, like many other people how the stats had shown to that time. Maybe the player behavior has changed and the people run yet only around in packs, but I doubt it.
If I come back - that I might will do after this patch - I bet I will mostly meet the same behavior types of killers and survivors again.
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@egg_ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2873509#Comment_2873509
I still didn't see an answer to what a lot of people asked: what if the legion hits twice the 4th survivor? There's nothing that survivor can do about it.
You have serveral similar situations on each side that are basically the same if you are not biased towards a specific side and/or killer.
If a Legion hits a fourth survivor, it is either a very lucky Legion, or a very skilled one. In both cases you can let the Legion that little fun.
It is hard enough to chain between serveral survivors, if those survivors not running around in packs. Something usually newbies do, but not experienced player anymore. If you don't believe me, play the Legion and tell me in how many matches you were able to really chain between 4 players.
TL:dr You worrie about a situation here that anyways will not come up in a normal match.
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I am "cautiously enthusiastic".
On paper the patch sounds great, but it is important how it later turns out to be in the game.
I hope to see something about it maybe by Oz. Otherwise I will see it later in ingame tests anyways.
For me it is only important that I can multistab someone while in frenzy, without getting stunned, a black screen, or whatever.
I know that is not much, but in multiplayer games we always have also to live with things we don't like and to be able to do that, I (at least) need a thing, or things, that make me fun and with that the circle ends again by the multistab thing :)
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Many thanks @Rizzo90 . I will read through it.
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@Peanits said:
Yes, even a healthy Survivor (though that would be very unlikely).
That means, I will be able to multi stab someone again while in frenzy?*
I believe then I have to start playing dbd again. A little bit training before the real fun comes back!
Who had thought that? Something beautiful at the end of the day, if I have not misunderstood it^^.
Edit: Are somewhere patchnotes to see about that topic?
Edit²: Without getting a black screen, getting stunned, destroying the sun, or something similar bad happening?
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I lost almost all interest on the game, as I was arguing in this forum with the devs to take one of their patches back and even I was by far not alone to this time with this hope and mindset, ->they didn't do it and since then I just sometimes look again in the game, or those forums if they have in the meanwhile take the patch back, or something like this.
I love to play games, but I have 2 terra byte of them on my plate and so I find always something else, like at the moment Team Fortress 2, Empire of Sin and Mass Effect: Andromeda (yeah I know it is ######### compared to 1-3 but I play it more for the "atmosphere" as for the story).
It is a bit unfortunate too, because I bet I would also enjoy many aspects in dbd again, or for the first time (like the new killer, the shape, ghostface, the artist and jill valentine [don't know why but I find her super sexy blush ]), but I can't play a game which has deleted the most fun factor for me in the game, especially since it was and is payed content we talk about here and that is something, that is at least for me important.
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@Phasmamain said:
Was just thinking about what would actually bring me back to the game and would love to hear any ideas you have. Mine are these
- Actually taking map balance seriously. They had a chance with the realm beyond but didn’t take it. Maps are in general too big and loop chaining makes rng play too big a role.
- Getting rid of the stale meta. Fact is buffing vigil by a bit isn’t going to make me use it over DS or Dead hard. This goes for both sides. These perks are band aids for the game’s issues so ripping them off and getting to the root of the issue is the way to go imo
- If they are dead set on releasing a killer every 3 months making them unique is key. Sadako is nice in this regard but killers like artist drew up 0 hype and had no impact on the game past their initial release. I’d rather have a weak killer who brings something new to the table than a rehash of an older idea.
- More Jeff cosmetics (no more leather jacket and jeans though)
If these actually happened I’d probably come back but with how the game is I see no reason to.
If they make it possible again for the Legion to stab multiple times a player while in frenzy, I come back.
It is that simple.
Until then I sometimes look after updates of DBD, but if it not happens it is also ok. I mean, dbd is luckily not the only game in the internet...
At the moment I have found an enormous amount of fun to play Team Fortress 2 again :)
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Thanks for the neutral discussion guys. I remember those forums differently. More biased towards either survivor, or a specific type of killer, or in general just toxic for the lulz, or whatever.
It is wholesome to see that changed, especially in those times we all are in, without wanting to make those bottles yet up. Just what I had thought after reading all postings.
Ah yes and sorry for being off topic yet. I hope for the patch then, mentioned above.
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"As it stands, though, hitting a survivor currently affected by Deep Wounds while using Feral Frenzy will cancel your power, as it always has."
Damned...
Well, anyways. Thanks. Saved me the testmatch and I can watch a movie instead.
Edit: Btw. it was also not always. This was also a change that had come with the rework back in the day - far as I remember.
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@WeenieDog said:
As far as I remember Legion was always penalized for hitting someone in deep wounds. That part hasn't changed. If you're talking about being able to lessen the mend timer with successive frenzy hits, not without an addon, but it's not really worth it IMO.
Though, I think they said he's on their radar, but what that entails is still in the air. Complete rework? number changes? Who knows. I wonder to the psychopaths that still main them, if they like his base kit or would they rather see them doing something different entirely... kind of like what they did to Freddy.
Also: " without getting penalized for being having a good enough aim to hit someone multiple times while in frenzy -_- "
Uhhh. Do my memories trick me now or was there not a stun after missing a knife hit while in frenzy? It's so long ago. I just can remember that you after the rework got basically penalized for even breathing. Exaggerated said.
All I wan't is that you can multiple times stab in frenzy, without being stuned, or getting a black screen, or whatever Behavior possible could code in to stop you from doing just that.
If that action lowers the mend timer, or makes just a tiny amount damage, or whatever... That is almost... ->almost<- (not totally) unimportant for me. Back in the day I had not buy the dlc because I had the picture of "mending everyone to the end of the world" in my mind. I had bought it because I thought on all the stabby movies^^. And well... Because I loved their story. I need to admit that :|
@dugman And thanks to you for the information about the update. I will keep my eyes peeled :)!
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@pedrolito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2243443#Comment_2243443
Nobody play for fun anymore. :/
I know that is probably more an sarcastic line, but still... If bhvr takes every fun element out of the game, just because someone crys over it, nobody should be surprised if more and more players play for the best wins possible, because they have nothing else left.
And that counts for boths sides. Many reworks and nerfs in the past have gone too far, for both sides.
Imo, this game need abilities and perks that sometimes can feel op but not necessary lead to a match domination. So that the people can have fun, without that it really matters (if a certain abilitie or perk needs not opness in form that it wins matches. Chases or other small parts of the game yes, matches no).
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@Dodgingbears said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2236095#Comment_2236095
That was not my point, at all. I was referring to AFKing in any fashion, which happens regularly, usually when they get looped hard or cant do challenges in higher level lobbies.
That happened last time I did a testgame of the changes from dbd on hawkins.
I was dominating the round (not impressive on rank20) and then stopped to hunt the survivor before me, almost in range for a hit.
Bet a stone had fallen of from the heart of this survivor :)
To uncloud the misery: I got a phone call and rl->game. For any reason.
So you see, there are many reasons to go afk :) Afk going is ok, imo. Just dcing not. Also I had write it later in the endgame-chat, that I am on a phone since I stopped moving, before I closed the game then.
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@piggygooik said:
If you don't know what identity V it's just mobile dbd before mobile dbd.
By what I mean from the title is that identity is so much more creative with their killers. All the killers in that game have powers that are so unique. Most of the killer powers have so much thought put into them not just range killer after range killer.
Not only are they unique they are strong. The most recent killer that just came out called The Will Brothers are so strong. they got nerfed once but are still used in comp. the thing about Bhvr is that most of the time they make a weak killer maybe a few buffs but then never look at them again (trickster). or they will nerf a killer that doesn't even need a nerf or nerf the wrong part of the power ( twins). this is not meant to bash the devs I'm just saying that they should be more creative with killer abilities and not be so scared of strong killers.
Bhvr should talk more with the community about new ideas.
The community has shown that they have a ton of ideas for new killers that would have completely new abilities, or at least are so mixed up that you can't compare them anymore to already existing killers.
I have even a handful by myself.
However, the ideas are not worth the time to write them down, because bhvr will never take them as an kick-off for one of their own new, next killers.
The fact how they nerfed and changed killers like the Legion and Freddy shows that they prefer to have killers of the "m1 looping scheme" and that makes it impossible to see real innovations.
And before now the "we are happy about every killer that fits into the boring m1 looping scheme" crowd shows up; -> the named examples above are named without looking at any form of balance. It is just fact that they were unique once and aren't anymore today.
Not really at least, considering the fact how important m1 looping is for them today.
Tl:dr if we learning from the past, then that bhvr turns everything into m1 looping killer (if possible - lucky Nurse here - there they can't without a huge rework) and that every hope of something, that would feel fresh and different to other killers as the Nurse is absolutly not justified.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2197475#Comment_2197475
I see it as "lucked" based in the sense you were lucky enough for The Legion to actually fall for it, just like how you were lucky that Deathslinger missed a shot or a bad Nurse made a bad blink, are those counterplays to those killers? Relying that they're bad? No it isnt
Also don't even get me started on the experience I have on Legion, he was the first killer I attempted to get the fastest P3 on, the 3rd killer I got all perks on, I was one of the first people to get the "Deranged Pursuit" achievement which was MUCH harder than it is now (Look it up if you need a refresh on how you needed to get it before) and if you want proof:
Deranged Pursuit achievement achieved at a time before they updated it:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/MTNPHSRPKPJ5/image.png
Screenshot of P3 Legion during Winter Solstice
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/DN18JAXYFBJK/image.png
I have the experience on Legion, and even nowadays if you want a reminder of how old Legion was just for the shits and giggles, run Franks Mixtape and Etched Ruler and just go after one survivor, no matter how good they are that survivor is going down, just like old Legion :)
Survivors going down in an 1n1 against the most killers anyways. Could have shown you the same with the Clown, back in day.
Congrats to the achievment. Personally I was never interested in making any kind of achievment, but I know you have probably done a lot of tries, to get it. I was more like a moke who was happy to run after the carrot for his head, aka. the survivor and that was already everything.
Then we had make different experiences. I had a handful of times people for me who could do the pallet counterplay as would they predict, what I would do next.
They did the pallet jumps when I did. They runned away when I stopped pallet jumping and just waited for them and so on. Just be happy that you had never face them. It was terrible. Especially without addons.
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@Crowman said:
I really hope you just didn't play around the time of Old Legion, because it's pretty obvious to anyone who played around the time of Old Legion that there was no counterplay to him.
Legion had no reason to mindgame. FF can vault pallets and windows making both resources do absolutely nothing to stop a Legion. You can't hide either if you ever did lose LoS to legion, because FF legion can still see blood and it wasn't uncommon for Legions to bring Bloodhound either. You could technically stun Legion out of his power, but every Legion respected pallets because there was no reason not to.
Legion would still lose the game and everyone would escape, but the games were boring. One person gets chased by legion for most of the match, because it takes Legion too long to down someone as everyone else does gens. There's no interaction going on.
I also really hate to call matches in dbd boring, but Old Legion just didn't offer anything to play around. Even Spirit currently provides more counterplay options than Old Legion. Regardless of how little options exist to play against Spirit, there is at least some form of interaction between the survivors and killer.
I stay to what I have written in this thread.
My playstyle of the pre-rework Legion was not so much different to the Legion of today.
I loved the Legion and bought because of the Legion this game and of course the dlc, but I feeled too strong as a killer in this game after a few matches with the Legion to this time.
So I had made my own rules and found my own playstyle and this was basically how the people today play the Legion, just without addons, a shorter frenzy and the abilitie to stab people in a chase multiple times, because that was what had make fun for me.
So I have avoid the exploits, the op addons, unfair gameplay and also do m1 mindgames a lot. Just I had also a bit of fun, because of the stabbing, mentioned above.
With this playstyle I had reach the red ranks until I was fed up with sweatness up there and de-rank on purpose and always hang then in the green, or purple ranks.
After the rework, or "today" I am mostly to find at rank 20, because I usually do just a testgame with the Legion from time to time to look if bhvr has bring the fun finally back for people like me.
Needless to say, they don't (at least until now) and so I stop playing then again until a few more patches have passed for dbd.
The survivors I let usually go in these testgames, if they not dc, or suicide on a hook before I can let them go.
Edit: That is my honest answer to it. You can laugh about me, if you like, or still hate me for being a "pre rework Legion main", but that is and was me.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2197210#Comment_2197210
"Spread out"
This doesnt mean anything if youre already in chase
"Learn M1 Mindgames"
Not a reliable way of countering him since youre relying on luck
"If he's in Frenzy dont use windows"
Even if hes not he has and had no start up time to his ability so he could just immediately enter Frenzy and get a hit that way, same goes for pallets if he threw it down
"Do a 180 after The Legion vaults the pallet"
This isnt counterplay, thats again relying on luck that The Legion is stupid enough to fall for this, and experienced players would always check for these to make sure a survivor didnt do it, you could also just swing at the survivor vaulting the pallet and if you missed? Well your frenzy didnt end so just vault back the pallet
You have seen the pallet counterplay as luck based?
Oh boy, then you had never saw it made by people who were experienced in it.
If I take you by your word it is also rng if you run in a trap of the Trapper, or Hag, or if you getting hit by the Huntress, or if Myers getting up to T2 and T3 and so on.
Sure, you can counterplay all this, with the help of a little bit of luck, but let us be honest... If you do it with the knoweldge of what you are doing against those killers, it is more effective and it isn't luck anymore, hm? ;).
And yes I know, that it is easier to disarm or avoid a trap of the Trapper, or to avoid, or destroy a trap of the Hag, as the pallet-counterplay was against the old Legion, but how gamers tend to say: "Skill is when luck becomes a habit."
There were survivors out there that have known how to do this, exactly like survivors are today out there that know how to disarm traps, how to letting Myers not becoming T3 and so on.
There is no shame in it, if you aren't able to do it, but to say it isn't possible, is a lie.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2197249#Comment_2197249
"They could use to any time their power, that is right, but even in this days, the power needed to recharge and if you had only 10% of your power, you could also only use 10% of your power."
And it recharged quick enough to have an easy usage of 25-30% every couple of seconds, which was all that was needed for a free hit over a pallet.
"Every killer in dbd has a special abilitie. Imo, it is not too much if we expect that survivors are able to learn the differences and some of them learn to handle them."
But you are missing the point here by about a continent. I don't know how I can make this clearer so I've written it all in bright pink this time.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/R2FILXL6OWFA/polish-20210518-181724304.jpg
Please let me know if you'd prefer it in German. Any other language I'm afraid I can't do.
" In my eyes, we have similar thoughts, but you exaggerate"
Then please go to the opticians because we are disagreeing over anything. We do not have similar thoughts in the slightest.
And no, I'm not exaggerating. See the above pink message.
"you can also nothing say about "for the health of the game", since you can't know what every player is thinking, or even every potential customer, that plays with the thought to buy dbd. "
Correct, I can't. I can, however, comment on design philophies that are and aren't healthy for DBD. Old Legion falls into the unhealthy category. Alongside old old old old DS to old old DS, Mettle of Man, Spirit, release Nurse, Midwich, Saloon, Gideon, etc. None of these are/were particularly healthy for the game.
A killer with no counterplay in the 1v1 is not healthy for a game focused around interaction in the 1v1. If you'd like this in pink too let me know.
"How many people would have left dbd, if the rework would had never happened, we can't know, since the rework has happen and so we have no data we can compare."
No, but we can go through what many people at the time said, which was "If they don't change this, I will quit". Why? Take a guess, here's your three choices:
1) It was healthy game design
2) It had plenty of counterplay
3) It was unhealthy, unfun to face, and had no counterplay in the 1v1.
Let's take a look at the results...
THAT'S RIGHT! If you said answer number 3 you are tonight's biggest winner!
"That are the facts. Without exaggerating."
Please see my previous comments. I have not exaggerated any facts during this entire discussion, despite what your love for old Legion tells you.
Curb your bias. Even stridor spirit mains agree Old Legion was too far.
Edit: oh also dbd around November-March 2018-2019 was buggy as #########, that's probably why a lot of people left. That and old Legion mains who were salty they'd have to play a killer that requires a smidge of effort to down someone
I stay by my point, but I try more to focus on the bigger picture, as just on one point and I don't hate anything in dbd so much that it could blind my view on how the things are.
Also, the people say always they are leaving. To everything... And they don't... Usually. This is not an argument until it really happens, because of this very reason imo.
Besides you shouldn't insult a group of people, just because you dislike what they have loved to play.
A game should offer fun for every type of player. Dbd has nothing to offer anymore for the people who have left. Also DBD had and will always have bugs. That was in the past so and it will also be so in the future, I bet. That is just the nature of nearly every game, especially life service and multiplayer games, since they always getting updated, including bugs.
With other words, if bugs are a reason to leave the game for dbd players, dbd should constantly lose players because of bugs, but that doesn't show the data.
I hald also play to that time Myers, Trapper and the Clown and in my opinion they were not harder to play as the Legion without addons. They had other strengths, yes and other weaknesses, but I had lost or win matches with them on the same amount as with the Legion without addons (with addons, Legion was too easy play for me).
The only thing I am willing admit is, that the Nurse is and was really harder to play as the Legion in the past and also today (or I was just bad with the Nurse - that would also be true, I bet).
The point you don't get is, if you would have been for me to that time as survivor and I would have decided to tunnel you, you would have been dead. No matter if I would have play Legion, or Myers, or Trapper, or Clown and I was not even a good killer imo.
If a killer decides to make things personal, there is nothing a survivor can do, if the killer has at least a bit experience and what does it matter how you die, if you die anyways?
This is just raging for the point of raging about something. Not adressing the problem.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2197193#Comment_2197193
No, actually. He's not at all like every other killer.
If any other killer is tunneling someone, the team can take hits. Can't do that vs Old Legion. The team can distract with scratches. Can't do that vs Old Legion because they tracked through blood. The survivor themselves can pallet loop for distance. Doesn't matter, Legion just vaults the pallet. Windows? Also doesn't matter. Ran out their power? They could use it at any point so good luck there. Making them miss? Doesn't matter they have no cooldown. Hiding? Again they see blood.
It's not similar to any other killers in terms of the sheer strength of the 1v1. No survivor input mattered, at all.
So no, we're not saying the same thing. Not even the same language.
And in terms of every other killer getting them down quicker it doesn't matter because even vs a stridor spirit some small insignificant part of your actions matter in surviving. There's nothing like that vs Old Legion. Absolutely nothing.
Weak in the 1v4, oppressive in the 1v1. Old Legion is gone and should remain gone and pretend they were anything close to good, healthy, or not uncountable is nothing but fooling yourself
They could use to any time their power, that is right, but even in this days, the power needed to recharge and if you had only 10% of your power, you could also only use 10% of your power.
So don't paint here a picture, as he was able to use 100% and I said above that windows were useless.
Every killer in dbd has a special abilitie. Imo, it is not too much if we expect that survivors are able to learn the differences and some of them learn to handle them.
In my eyes, we have similar thoughts, but you exaggerate, after my personal experience and of many other people that have sadly left dbd in the time between the rework and now and you can also nothing say about "for the health of the game", since you can't know what every player is thinking, or even every potential customer, that plays with the thought to buy dbd.
The only thing we can say for certain is, that after the rework many people had left dbd (like the stats had shown to that time) and that there was a hugh interest to either undone the rework, or parts of it - how the tags in the old forums have shown and of course, dbd attracts to this day less players, because they have nothing to offer, to fans of fast stabbing killers.
How many people would have left dbd, if the rework would had never happened, we can't know, since the rework has happen and so we have no data we can compare.
That are the facts. Without exaggerating.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2197122#Comment_2197122
What were their counters then? What was a reliable way to win a chase against old legion? And "losing them" is not a reliable one
Basically a mix of the same counters you do today against them and some things that have gone obsolete today.
-Spread out, as soon as you aware that the killer is a Legion.
-Learn m1 mindgames, since Legion can also attack on this way, if he likes.
-If he is in frenzy don't use windows, because he will most likely always get you there.
-Use instead pallets. If the Legion starts frenzy, jump over the pallet and do directly turn 180 and jump again over that pallet and do that over and over again. If you do that right, the Legion will either lost you, or chase you until its frenzy ends - without the chance to hit you. After that the Legion is again a traditional m1 killer.*
That was the most common counterplay and it had also work. Many things of the past work even today against the Legion, like spreading out, or knowing m1 mindgames.
*If the Legion used Franks Mixtape, it was nearly impossible to do that, because the most survivors had do a mistake in the time this addon had run, but it was not without reasons op. Without Franks Mixtape, it was possible.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2197122#Comment_2197122
Please read what I've said very, very slowly for me. Uncountable in the 1v1. There was nothing you could do in the 1v1. Unless the Legion player was literally quadriplegic or lacked eyeballs you were going to die with no input on your side matteting at all.
In the 4v1 no, they were incredibly weak. But in the the 1v1 they were impossible to counter and if you think otherwise you are objectively wrong.
We thinking basically the same, but you forget about it 2 things and there are you either not experienced enough (what I not believe), or you are not honest enough:
-If a killer (every killer!) focus on just one survivor, this survivor will die, most likely. With that - the Legion is nothing special anymore. Not without reason complain so many survivors about tunneling.
-The frenzy time back in the day was shorter as it is today. If you have really tunnel 1 survivor, you have most likely got him down, but only after a long chase.* In this time, any Trapper, Hillbilly, Nurse, Spirit and many over killers would have had this survivor already down, a long time ago (in a tunneling situation).
So if you say something like that above it would just be honest if you either say it not, or "like every other killer, he has no counters in a 1n1".
*Edit: If the survivor had skill.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2197122#Comment_2197122
Nobody is talking about Legion being too strong. He was unfun in a 1v1-aspect, you WILL down a Survivor with Frenzy, no matter what, without anything the Survivor can do, even without moonwalking and even without Add-Ons.
You lose the game while doing so, which made Legion weak (he was never strong to begin with), but they are guaranteed to down the Survivor they are chasing.
Well, if you say it so, you are right.
The same can you also say about every other killer btw. If I play now a match with the Trapper as example and focus only on one player - this player will die.
No matter what he does, no matter which perks, or experience he has. Of course, gens will pop to my left and right, like hell, but he would be down.
That is something every killer can do in dbd, besides maybe Nurses who not teleport.
Edit: And it is not fair in my opinion to say always something like that, if every other killer can do it also.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2197094#Comment_2197094
No, because even without moonwalking, Stab Wounds Study or Frank's Mixtape or any other add on combination he was uncoubterable in a 1v1. Unless the Legion player wasn't aware that they had eyeballs there was nothing you could do.
Your lovely person who played legion a lot on their release and faced just as many,
GoodBoyKaru.
PS. I know exactly what I'm talking about, so does my bf who agrees with me and he's literally a legion main. So do my friends who were around at the time, one of whom is an ex-legion main but has recently moved onto Huntress.
Old Legion should not and most likely will not ever come back for the overall health of the game. If you think that Old Legion was anywhere near healthy or counterable in a 1v1, you are objectively wrong.
It was. Besides personal experience, there were even video evidence.
The Legion without addons was not more or less stronger as any other killer to that time (if you have know the counterplay), besides obvious worse killers like the Clown and obvious better killers like the Nurse.
With that I don't want to say that the Legion was weak, but she was also not unconquerable.
She was strong with a few weak spots and that was why the addons were so powerful, because they had taken out the weakness of the Legion.
Also what I am saying was and is covered by the killstats of that time. If you search them, you will see that the Legion was in the lower midfield, no matter which rank and that was for reasons.
Edit: And what you saying of a comeback - Most likely yes. The devs seem to prefer a smaller player crowd over a potential bigger player crowd. You can say what you want, but killer that stab fast have their own audience and dbd cant serve anything to this audience, besides T3 Myers and I bet that Myers will sooner or later get his rework too. Not because of his strength, but just because he had never a real rework far as I remember.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
Because his first release was the epitome of unfun game design that I hope and pray never, ever returns. He was literally uncountable in a 1v1. There was absolutely nothing you could do.
In terms of what I'd do to rework him, it's somewhere in my previous discussions and I made it with my friend, mid commenting this on my phone so I can't go find it rn
Please change "He was literally uncountable in a 1v1" in "He was literally uncountable in a 1v1 if he uses the exploits and/specific addons" and we are by the truth.
It is a small difference that matters.
Your lovly Legion main from next door,
Talmeer
:D
It was also a long time accepted as this until many old players left the game, because the hope to see a fun version from the Legion again had gone down, the more time had pass.
99% of the playerbase today do not really know anymore about what they talk, if we come to this topic. Sadly. The only ones who are left from the past are mostly the haters. Not the people who loved the Legion so much, that they raised the Legion tags higher as the dev's faq video session tags - to a time where this forum had tags on the right side of the screen.
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@piggygooik said:
I don't really play this killer all too much cuz IMO he/she is kinda boring. It's just running and stabbing.
since I don't really play him /her too much how would you buff, would you give him a new ability like Scott junds idea to make him more like he was was in his trailer( also one other thing I don't like about him he was a clickbait killer) or just straight-up buff him.
Legion is almost good enough. What he desperately needs is make fun to play.
On this little detail have the devs not thought by the rework. To be fair, they very often think not on it by killer reworks and patches -_-.
For this, stabs in frenzy should do a small amount of real damage and frenzy should also not break after hitting a survivor twice. At least how I see it.
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@th3 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2174527#Comment_2174527
If you can't see the point I had then why bother responding to me. Bhvr can't just balance around the fun for just killer mains. They have to do it for both sides and Legion was a prime example of this since he literally removed any gameplay option for the other side with how abusive his power was. However, it does seem like they have done a somewhat decent job since but could do better in certain areas.
I guess we have the same mindset basically, after your posting. Everyone back in the day wanted to have a change, besides a few people, but the change we wanted, had gone too far (with we I mean the killer mains and some survivor mains).
This is a bit like the hillbilly situation if I can trust the billy mains. They also had saw the need of a change, but the change they thought would never come. Instead it has gone too far, again.
I can't say much to hillbilly, since he never was a killer that attracted me, but by the Legion would only be tiny changes necessary, to bring the fun for the players back and I have the strong opinion that this should be possible for this very reason.
Every killer and also the survivors should things have, just for fun. Because I think on this way, I have also never participate in survivor nerf threads.
Yeah, some survivor abilities were annoying for me, like the click-click-click-click.......... flashlight users, but if I have my fun, who I am to denie it another one?
Imo, the people need to be more relaxed a bit and accept that this is a multiplayer game. Some things make fun, others not. Keeping both in the game brings more player to the game. Nerfing some of those things brings only stagnation. Especially if those nerfs come out without listening to the community, where the Legion rework a prime example for was. Because to that time, nobody wanted to see such a nerf, besides a very small crowd of people.
The most people wanted a change, but not this change. I hope that bhvr finally stops 1 day to listen to the wrong people that just cry for nerfs, because of the lulz. They should listen to the people who think before they ask for something like that.
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@th3 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2173513#Comment_2173513
So nerfing legion so he actually has to play the game removed what made killer fun. lmfao.
Legion needed always "to play the game". If you think, you are so much more skilled, just because you are able to press m1 if you stay for a generator, then let me say - you aren't.
Why is it so hard to accept for some survivor mains, that everything and I mean ->everything<- has its fans in dbd and everywhere else?
Of course, there are also people who dislike certain things. Everybody does this, but the same counts also for likings, or do you always only like what your friends have before approve for you (or maybe streamers)? Well, that is boring in my opinion, but what works for you, works for you.
Some people, as example, love it to face the nurse, or ghostface, or the huntress, while others would love to dc as soon, as they see them and that is the nature of multiplayer games.
Multiplayer games are not singleplayer games. A multiplayer game need to make many people happy, while a singleplayer doesn't.
If you dislike rpg's as example, you just don't buy the next single player rpg and instead the next 3d action shooter, but in multiplayer games need all those guys coming together. At least if you want that the multiplayer game stays healthy and starts to be maybe even more successful as before.
And what you see since years with dbd is that the devs always cater to the same audience. That is on one hand the reason why dbd is so stable, but on the other hand also the reason why there are not more active players (active aka. playing the game and not just bought the game to let it go moldy in the steam lib).
If you defend this, then you are part of the problem, not of the solution, imo and you defend this everytime, you go in a nerf thread and support drastical changes that change something to what it wasn't before (that counts not only for the Legion, it counts also for every killer that gots his basekit drastically changed in the past and in the future).
Edit: And the reason for that is, because the team by bhvr who designs the new killers does good, while the guys who later balance the killers often revert their changes. If they taking something with a unique basekit out, as example, just so that the killer is better loopable - or similar things - the danger is always that people leaving.
Multiple patches and reworks of the past have shown this.
With this I don't want to support unbeatable killers, but the balancing need to be done on a other way, without ruining the basekit of a killer.
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@Sluzzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2173251#Comment_2173251
This is a great point. Killers have been buffed constantly and survivors have been nerfed constantly.
If there is a shortage of killers it is because the role is too ez and not challenging. When the game was more fair killer queues were abysmal.
But it really is exaggerated because most of the time survivor queues are very instant and killers have to wait. It only changes at certain times of the day. It is a false rumor that killers are not wanting to play because it is too hard. Killers should stop saying that.
It has nothing to in the first place with difficult, or easy games imo. At least for the majority of players.
The point is, that bhvr has consistently nerf everything what makes fun for killer mains, starting with the Legion rework, or maybe even before (I know dbd only since the release of Darkness among us, so I can only talk about this time - now).
And since this rework, they have done the same with multiple other killers (billy would also be a example, but there is more). Imo, it doesn't interest if you 4k every game, if you have no fun by it, because the game mechanics are just unfun for you as killer player.
Imo, dbd would be more helathy if the devs would look more after killers fun. It would lead new people to the game. Make that existing players stay and if a killer main is happy, it is more likely that he is also ok with any positive survivor change.
Aka. the war between killer and survivors would be not so extrem as it is today. But that is just my opinion.
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I would
-Develop killers with new abilites that are either completely, or in parts, have never seen before in dbd.
-Undone some of the killer nerfs in the past.
Both actions are aimed to bring more diverse people to dbd, because the more diverse a game is in its playerbase, the stronger is it.
-Make moris basekit for survivors that got already hooked twice.
-Rework some maps again, to give survivors more things they can use.
-Maybe thinking of taking some survivor perk nerfs back, to balance the killers out.
-I would add more game modes. Again, to diversify everything. Repairing gens is fine, but there should be more imo.
Edit: And maybe make new items that survivors can use. Either for the new objectives, of the new game modes, or for balance reasons.
Edit²: Like a bucket with mud maybe, to slow killers sometimes a bit down, for a few seconds.
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@ShamelessPigMain said:
1) This community is plain awful, I would quit, set my house on fire, and move to a southeast Asian country where nobody talks to me if I were in the developers' shoes. Their therapist probably recommended they stay away.
2) They have jobs to do and a chapter to work on.
If the devs stay away from this froum, they will feel more and more anger towards them. That has nothing to do with the devs on the first place. It is just always like that, if people leaving a place for a longer time, others start to turn against them. That can you see in rl, like also here in the internet.
If they want to have a good connection with the community, they should talk with them and give them the feeling, that they value their community. The whole community. Not only the part of it that is ok with their point of view.
Also they should discuss with the people. And I mean discuss. Not putting one comment in a thread and then move away like they have done it in the past, many times. A real talk is more as 1 line towards a person. It's multiple lines between two or more persons, hm? Aka. multiple postings.
And if they talking with someone, they disagree with, they should respect his/her opinion and maybe think about it, if the person gives constructive feedback and starts not to insult etc.
Never forget, that there are also developer channels out there, that are different. There are the people friendly, even if the devs not always have their opinions, but there the devs talk also with the community and they sometimes do for what their communitys are asking.
The dev reaktion from bhvr is usually that they sit the "storm" out and hope for the best. Needless to say, it makes things worse over time, even if it helps them out for the moment.
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I tried to explain the devs already in 2019 that killers also need to have fun, but the devs didn't got it back in the day.
In my eyes, they are worried about a small minority in the survivor player base, that is very vocal about their believes and opinions (even with streamer support), but as said already before... they are small and so I have never understood why the devs have obey to those guys, while you have at least the same amount of survivors + many killer mains, that are against the believes of this small survivor minority, what many killer nerfs in the past matters.
I am exhausted to tell the devs the whys. I am just here sometimes to see how everythings comes together, what was so predictable before and even today.
If the devs ever want to change something on the killer problem as a whole (that gnaws slowly but persistent on dbd already since years), they should start to listen, to killers about what is fun and also implement it (even if the survivor minority mentioned above is crying).
And no devs, not for every killer is fun to be always the 4k guy. I bet that is fun for many killer mains today, because you have left them nothing else.
Also again, devs, you should really think about if the small survivor minority is worth it to upset killer mains over and over again and also occusualy other survivor mains, that have not their opinion.
That is all what I am saying.
I will be happy with both outcomes. Either to see what is predictable, or to see a change and then to be a player of dbd again.
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The underwear of my arms warrior in wow.
Have play him since bc to the end of battle of azeroth. Almost 11 years if I am not wrong.
Not one time I was able to undress the underwear ... So it is a weapon of mass destruction by now. *mad laugh*
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-Who did you Main?
Legion
-Why did you Main them?
Because I wanted to play them after I saw their long trailer in the first place... Well and this game, since they were the reason for me to buy the game. They were exactly what I wanted.
As second I think, it has also much to do with nostalgia by me, since I have in my past also lived like the Legion, before the entity catched them. I mean, I have nobody kill and I had always a permanent residence, but I know how it is to celebrate in a cold abandoned house like the one in Ormond and to have a deep connection between a few people with which you can do everything, because the bound in trust is so strong.
It was the best time in my life imo, even I can't complain about my life today, but still... You think sometimes back.
-Did they change drastically over your time with them?
If Legion is not a synonym in dbd for a drastically change, then I don't know what is.
-Did you “drop” that Killer almost immediately or after a long period of time?
Kind of. I left dbd after this, almost. I play sometimes test matches with the Legion to see, if the devs have bring the fun for Legion mains back in the game, but after it I drop the game again. Since the answer to this question was always "no" so far. I have maybe play 10-15 matches since the rework patch.
-or Did you adapt to the changes and continue to Main them?
Imo, it whas easy for Legion mains to adept, since they got simplified. I doubt it would be possible so easy vice versa for the Legion mains of today, to the old one, if the devs would restore old Legion without the exploits and or op addons.
-Did you find a New Main? Who?
A short time I thought to main Ghostface, I have even bought him, but at the end I am too afraid. Ghostface has also a bug and one day - the devs will fix this bug and I am too afraid that they fix this bug "on the Legion way". So no new mains, or killers for me anyways. If I main something, I like to main something with substance and something that stays as what it is as long it exists. No matter if that is weak, or strong.
-If your Killer hasn’t had any drastic changes or your still fairly new to the game...do you think you would be the type to give up on your Main or continue using them no matter the changes?
I think I answered this question already.
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I would remove not one killer, or survivor, because that would give people a reason to leave the game and while I have my problems with the devs, I don't think dbd should be less appealing for this^^.
Edit: Combobreaker :P :D