Cornil
Cornil
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I think the honeymoon phase with Jason is over now. HIs skill ceiling is very high, thanks to Omnipresent his skill floor is also fairly high. For his kill-rate in these stats being only the first two weeks? I don't think half of those players were using him at the same proficiency that many are now. Sure, survivors know the counterplay a little better, his kill-rate may no longer a whopping 70%, but what is really a 'regular spot' for a ranged killer with built-in hard stealth, map mobility, AND free info on non-crouched survivors? 65% or the standard 60%? Some examples, my personal kill-rate on Wesker is 56%, and on Nightlight people report 47% kill-rate. He requires a lot of skill but does get some free hits. On Ghoul I only manage 60%, and he gets even freer hits with a higher skill-floor than Jason. With my main, Cenobite, I have a 67% kill-rate. And that's counting all of the people who give up or DC in my lobbies just because they don't like Pinhead.
Jason is still overtuned, and trust me I definitely understand why many people would disagree. There are a lot of people playing Jason who haven't mastered the character and make him feel very fair. Until you've face a dedicated Jason player who has mastered him, you would believe he was just an A-tier killer. He is legitimately, in the right hands, a face-camping and tunneling machine right now. And there's virtually no counterplay to those kinds of strategies. Hook in an open deadzone, wait like Huntress for unhook, teleport and instantly slam the survivor into a wall like Wesker but from a distance, easy kill. If the dev team doesn't want to touch his anti-camp punishments at all, then Omnipresent evil needs some kind of nerf or minor rework overall. He can sit in it forever and get free info, so he either needs a hefty cooldown after using it, which would reduce spamming it in chase, or he needs a time limit until he's forced to reappear, so he can't stall the game for entire minutes at a time waiting for a survivor to start working on a gen or unhook their teammate.
Also I remember everyone freaking out when Ghoul released and in his first 2 weeks got around a 64% kill-rate. I mean, 70% definitely reflects my experience playing against Jason in the month following his release. He's incredibly strong. I wish that the official DbD stats website would also show escape rates against specific killers, I'd like to know just how many times I've escaped against him.
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@dangersmymidd1ename said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4103466#Comment_4103466
A couple of months ago the system was updated and now all maps have an equal chance.
Can you link where they announced that they reverted it? It doesn't feel like they made any change, to be completely honest
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They need to just revert it. The system should pick a random map because the map is what you actually play on, not the realm. Nostromo and Toba Landing are in the same realm, for example. So every time you get that realm, it rolls a 50/50 between which map it will be. Which means you barely ever see specific maps from the original 3 realms (MacMillan, Autohaven, The Farm), and instead you see RPD for the tenth match in a row, or the one variant of Badham Preschool 500 times.
Maps should all be equal pick chances. They removed the 2nd variants of all those original maps, like the MacMillan Estate ones, so why not add those back and have it roll a 50/50 chance on which variant of that map it is when those get pulled? It would add 1,000 times more variety than the current map rotation of non-stop single-map realms
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@vol4r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4101934#Comment_4101934
Wait, you might be rage baiting honestly.
I don't need stbfl not to lose stacks on m2 to get good value out of this.
I use brutal for the zoning and quicker break on harder pallets.How you are gonna feel rewarded for chasing a survivior who doesn't have any resources to work with?
We are playing different game apparently.
you’ve solved your own puzzle
You’re bringing a perk that’s whole design is to chew through resources quicker so they have none (brutal strength), I am discussing that I find it more fun when good killer plays aren’t met with ‘hold W to the next pallet/window’ literally 5 times in one chase. “Just zone bro” isn’t a valid argument when in every direction there’s a viable tile to loop at.
My whole point is that the current state of map RNG and pallet counts doesn’t reward good killer plays anymore, I never said I’d feel rewarded chasing survivors into dead zones. But dead zones have to exist or else fundamentally chases will likely NEVER end! If you can kick 5 pallets in a corner of the map, and there’s still 2 safe windows and 3 more pallets, then what was the point wasting a minimum 10-15 seconds at each of those 5 pallets to begin with? It’s why playing survivor feels so godawful and boring now, every single killer that wants to win is tunneling, face camping, and 3-gen-ing on the part of the map that looks like it has the least viable loops. You know how unfun that is? Idk how they do it, guess they find winning more fun than having actual chases anymore. Like imagine playing killer and spending 90% of the match sitting in one quadrant of the map kinda just waiting for survivors to inevitably lose. Jason is the best at it too, he can just bounce around any three generators and stall the whole game until survivors just give up. All of this is symptomatic of the map design making killers realize there are more viable pallets than there are 15 second intervals it would take to finish all 5 gens. Even if you broke every pallet in chase under 10 seconds each, survivors just pre-dropping them Willy Nilly, you’d still lose. I play a lot of Bubba, he chews pallets like no one else. I know very well that this is the case. Survivors shouldn’t be able to just go in ‘autopilot mode’ as some have called it, and send the killer on a pallet tour every match. The killer is forced to bite his tongue and only try chasing wherever he’s kicked all of the pallets already, and that’s literally what you just called unrewarding!
Let me sum it up, to be sure we’re on the same page. Less Pallets = more rewarding chases. For both sides.
Im not saying gut pallet counts either, I think the current counts are only 2-3 pallets too high on most maps. The problem is the spawns these pallets have, there are too many safe pallet loops now thanks to the increased count. I want to feel rewarded for reaching a good pallet, being able to win mind games, stunning the killer being important again. Instead, right now you can pre-drop and run to the next loop before the killer can reach you almost every single time. And it’s a problem in a lot of loops even for mobility killers. If the distance is too short, Ghoul can’t do anything. If the distance isn’t narrow Wesker can be dodged to lose even more distance. If the distance is too open, Blight will have nothing to bump off of. They’re not even immune from the hold W predrop strategy, they just have circumstances where they might be able to catch or cut off a survivor before they reach the next loop. But most maps are so dense now it’s even hard for them to do it anymore. Imagine how killers without mobility feel. I play Cenobite for crying out loud, the only reason I ever win is because people don’t know you should never drop a pallet until you get hit with a chain. So they often give me free hits while slow vaulting. Otherwise, I’d literally have to kick 20 pallets per match, which just isn’t viable if you want to even make the match a close loss. The devs clearly realize this because in their livestream they mentioned that they’re changing the win condition in the MMR system so that it isn’t based on kills anymore but instead overall performance.
The reason people should take this seriously is because pallets and loops have to be at least relatively well spaced, or else there’s no reason for killers to even bother playing on half of the map. The only reason I don’t lose every match not using the boring camping playstyle is because I main Cenobite, and the box forces me to consider its spawns on the majority of the map to activate the other half of my kit. For other killers, they can just play in the most mind numbing way possible, forcing all survivors to come to them by the end of the game, and just slugging or hook trading until it’s snowballed into a loss.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4101535#Comment_4101535
M1 killers are indeed that bad. Play against any competent players and you will be dog walked. Theres a point where a killers kit is so fundamentally weak (like pig) that even if you're the best player in the world on them you are going to struggle a LOT to keep up with any efficient survivors especially in current pallet density when there's another pallet 10 meters away. Getting semi-consistent 4k's as pig is just a tell of what kind of survivors you go against let alone one running STBFL as their best perk.
I think vol4r is literally just ragebaiting at this point, I wouldn't bother replying to them. 12,000 hours but claims to get consistent 4k's on Pig using a perk that hasn't synergized with their kit for over 2 years now, and another perk that literally exists just to kick pallets like .3 seconds faster. They downvote me because I speak the truth.
Yes, content creators tend to be negative because they play the game so much and this game for some reason just makes people eventually see the worst in each other. And yes, vol4r is 100% correct, the game is all about having fun. Its a video game after all.
But you know what, I have to agree with the CC's on this one, I don't think I find having such a surplus of pallets fun for either side. I want to feel rewarded for winning a chase as survivor, it feels cheap dropping so many pallets and seeing so many killers on the roster almost helpless to do anything. And I want to feel rewarded for zoning properly as killer. I shouldn't mindgame and play a pallet perfectly, force the survivor into a losing situation, just for them to break line-of-sight for 1 second and suddenly be at an equally or sometimes even more powerful tile/pallet like 10 meters away.
Is it really so controversial to say I want better map design, balanced for both sides to have at most a 60/40 or 40/60 fighting chance? Right now a lot of maps can get as bad as 20/80 depending on RNG and which killer is being played. Which maybe no one would believe me until they've played as or against a Trapper on RPD with all potential pallet spawns up, lol
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@vol4r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4101558#Comment_4101558
I won't be wasting my time on dbd content creators that are not fun to watch.
I hate dbd rants, us vs them videos etc.Brother, I've got 12 000 hours on this game, there will be nothing I didn't see.
You can't chain 5 pallets into infinite loops against decent killer.
It only works if killer doesnt understand zoning.Don't get brainwashed from watching those YouTube content creators, they are really destroyers of fun.
You are supposed to have fun from a video game.
Watching them puts people in a weird power or ego trips.“You vill drop ze 20 pallets per match, and break ze 20 pallets per match, and you vill like it!”
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@vol4r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4101463#Comment_4101463
You cannot make few pallets into infinite loop, especially with bloodlust.
It's just not possible to run from pallet to pallet and never get a hit.Minute long break? That's not 2016 anymore.
Pallet breaking was buffed twice in history and is now good enough.
You also have perks and addons that shorten the breaking time significally. You have tools, you just don't use them.You are just making things up.
Go watch people play 1v1’s on YouTube. Good players can literally take you on a 5 minute pallet tour without getting hit once. Killer powers have counters and only survivors who are wholly unaware or massively misplay will get hit rotating between loops on most maps now. The average player is plenty capable of a 1 to 2 minute chase by themselves with this pallet density. I know this because I AM that average player, and I’ve done it. Claiming I’m making things up when virtually every YouTuber who plays killer in this game has agreed that the pallet spawns are messed up is an interesting rebuttal.
We’ve been living with these changes for almost a year now. Here, watch Scott bring up the fundamental problem on basically launch day of the pallet density update
https://youtu.be/KrZDD9MYcPI?is=BeS3qU7LWFJNvVxL -
@Wyndsor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4101463#Comment_4101463
Why should chaining loops be exceedingly difficult when most modern killers have a low skill floor and most modern maps are killer-favored?
Not exceedingly difficult, just more difficult than it is now. Compared to how matches played out on most maps just a year ago, directly contrasting them, you'd think BHVR went with the nuclear option. Some maps used to have only 12 to 15 pallets maximum. One of which was Dead Dawg Saloon, I believe. Modern maps are not killer favored, Trickster's Delusion, Greenville Square, Nostromo Wreckage. Not even just looking at the most recently added maps, looking at the overall selection we have in public matches, almost every map that isn't equally balanced is survivor sided. Pallet density did nothing to help. Garden of Joy got reworked and for about 4 months was actually playable for once, just for them to introduce the increased pallet counts and now its back to being dreadful. Oh, or how about Badham Preschool? That map is hated universally by both sides, but why? Because its hard to loop on survivor, has a big learning curve. But once you know how, its incredibly survivor sided. House of pain, the basement house, the school itself, it has a fixed shack spawn you can reach from either house pretty easily. The basement house has this one long-wall filler tile with a pallet right in the middle that always seems to spawn between it and shack. Like 6 breakable walls on that map too. House of pain has that nickname because of its 4 or 5 window spawns. That map never needed more pallets. Now it does. How do you think the majority of the killer roster feels having to kick 10 god pallets on top of the map having 12+ windows, 4 of which are very safe god windows? It's just like Dead Dawg Saloon, it has so many windows, why did it need more pallets?
There are far better ways to balance maps than the way BHVR has approached it. They need to reign in the RNG and make it more reasonable, individually creating conditions and exceptions for how the spawns should interact with each other. Increasing the pallet count didn't actually fix dead zones, it just created giga-looping zones lol
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@vol4r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4101199#Comment_4101199
How is bloodlust useless? The whole point of bloodlust is to chase surviviors, not breaking the pallets.
Additional move speed is there to help you out playing around the pallet.You're doing something wrong. If you stop breaking pallets, learn to play around killer's red light, start mind-gaming people you will start to win chases more frequently.
Pallet density doesn't matter if you can actually play around the pallets and can avoid getting stunned.We are nowhere near 2016 DBD, because back when I started playing dbd I would be healing myself twice in one chase with green med-kit.
If we are taking about Trickster delusion, you might wanna count how many pallets are actually useable in there, because most of them are a free hit/down.
The whole point of bloodlust (if you go back to when it was added in ye' olden days) was added to prevent infinites, where the killer could never catch the survivor vaulting between multiple windows. Well, if you have enough pallets in one spot, you can basically create an infinite where the killer has to either spend half a minute staring at pallet-break animation, usually losing one or two gens in the progress (3 if its the start of the game). Or, you have to be playing a killer that maybe could outplay or mind game the survivor as they juggle between those say, 5 different pallets. But that's only certain ranged or mobility killers, depending on the exact type of loop (tall vs short, long vs wide, etc.)
Problem is 90% of killers I face lose in those situations because they try to play one pallet for too long, get bloodlust, then have to lose it breaking a strong pallet. Chaining loops used to be something difficult, took a ridiculous amount of skill. Nowadays, its far, far easier. With ridiculously lopsided map RNG? Modern infinites, basically. As long as the killer isn't a character like Bubba, Myers, or Singularity, who can just plow through all of the pallets in an area as quickly as possible (so like, 80% of the killer roster) then any decent survivor can have a 3 minute chase in those overcrowded tiles.
Map balance will always be this game's key issue, I'd say an underlying issue given that people tend to overlook it and focus entirely on the killers themselves.
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I want a pallet rebalance already. Perk shakeup would be nice and all, but the base game itself is flawed right now. Playing survivor is just hold W simulator and killer is pallet break simulator, its stupidly boring. And I'm saying that as someone who enjoys generators and skill checks. Idk how, but they managed to make chases boring on both sides, all in what I assume is an attempt to bring the top 3 best killer's win-rates down a good 5%. Just in that process they've brought us back to 2016 DBD where chases are near-impossible to win if a survivor knows correct pathing. Bloodlust is pointless if there's 5 pallets all within 10 meters of each other. Like, I never thought The Game or Hawkins Lab could get any more unfun to play on, but here we are.
It feels like the devs don't test their own changes for more than 2 minutes, then send it to PTB. And if there isn't an uproar from the community loud enough to be heard all the way in the depths of the Mariana Trench, then they don't change it before it goes live. So their solution? Don't make any changes at all anymore…
Pallet density has been getting worse, and worse, and worse. It feels like every match I play the RNG finds a new combination of pallet and tile spawns on survivor that leaves half of the map a barren wasteland, or on killer it somehow makes it so that every loop-able tile that can spawn does spawn. Doing a flat buff to the number of pallets, like it seems they did, has done nothing but make the game stale. Just like how they shrunk the size of almost every map just to add like 3 back-to-back mobility killers, BHVR has a tendency to forget what they were trying to achieve halfway through making changes, no matter how noble their intentions might be. Anti-slugging and anti-tunneling changes are a great example. They're all we've seen in terms of major balancing for the last year practically. And both of them were scrapped because, honestly, they were unnecessary and overkill. BHVR needs to ask WHY killers are slugging and tunneling, not how to remove slugging and tunneling.
Dead by Daylight has not been a hide and seek game for a long time now, its been balanced around chases for the majority of its life at this point. The reason balancing any killer outside of the top 3, or buffing survivors in any way, will both be meaningless currently is because the gameplay itself has desensitized chases. Now killers' only chance of winning is avoiding chase as much as possible, get one person out as quickly as you can, so then you can actually slow generator progress enough to afford kicking the map's 25+ pallets (also not an exaggeration, I once went in customs and counted 27 pallets on Trickster's Delusion)
Pallets were a resource, they should've stayed a resource, and should always be a resource. The fact that they are balancing the game itself around top tier killers instead of the top tier killers around the game is worrisome. All we can do is hope they don't waste anymore time and resources on remedying the game's issues (slugging/tunneling) and instead tackle the actual causes (pallets/perks/map design) of these issues.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4100796#Comment_4100796
The map is really not that big. The pure size of it is on the average size, if I remember correctly they said that it is around the same size as Dead Dawg Saloon, which is not considered a huge map. But the map appears bigger, because there is no direct connection from one side to the other, which is something other maps usually feature. Even a pure Indoor Map like Lerys has an option to traverse it in a straight line from one side to the other, Tricksters Delusion does not allow that, which makes the map look bigger already.
I would also not say that the map is really safe. Aside from very few God Pallets, the Map does not really offer much for Survivor. Most Pallets are extremely bad and if people really struggle with those, I have to imagine they kick way too many of those unsafe Pallets. I can win on it with Killers who are around B- and C-Tier (my last match on it was with Nemesis), so I have to assume others will win on it as well even if they dont play Ghoul or Jason.
But yeah, the map is overall miserable and I said it from the start that it might end up being one of the most hated maps for both sides after the honeymoon phase is over, where people were excited that it was such a good-looking map. In the end it is a glorified Indoor Map, it does not play different than one and while some Killers really play very well on it, most dont. And meanwhile the Survivor gameplay is also pretty boring and there is not much to work with.
I play pinhead and have yet to win on the map. Or even get close. It’s usually a guaranteed 4-man out with at most 4 hooks because the gens fly like crazy. The map is nowhere as small as dead dawg saloon, I refuse to believe that. It’s got at least twice the pallet count of dead dawg too, since half of that map is just dead zones to hide in. It’s part of why the map is a nightmare as survivor against Jason, there’s 500 places for him to teleport to even in the middle of the Main Street. Every Jason I’ve lost to on Trickster’s delusion just teleports to the recently unhooked survivor and hits them and the saving survivor with a spear from like 20 meters away down an alley, rinse and repeat until someone is tunneled out. It’s not a very engaging map against the killers that have enough mobility to win, and it’s awful playing as anyone outside of the top 3 best killers on it.
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I really loved this map at first until I really got to play it a bit on multiple killers. It is genuinely Ormond Resort 2.0, like the original Ormond. The wiki doesn't show the exact square-tile size of the map yet, but its gotta be close to 200 square tiles, because it feels like by far the largest map in the game. Genuinely, standing at the furthest generator on edgemap and looking at the furthest generator away on the other side of the map its like 10 pixels on my screen. How is any killer other than Jason or Ghoul supposed to get a 4K here against semi-competent survivors that don't group up? I have never felt like I held my W key for 40 seconds straight without having a chance to hit a survivor with my chains as Pinhead or a hatchet as Huntress until I played this map. There are far too many safe indoor areas to juke killers for a map so massive.
Oh, and not to mention, its boring on survivor because its nothing but god-pallets that cut off entire alleyways, or windows that chain into another window 10 meters away. So 90% of survivor gameplay is just also holding W with the occasional spacebar press. And the map, as ginormous as it is, doesn't have a SINGLE great height to use perks like Balanced Landing, Boil Over, or All-Shaking Thunder. This is the second map in a row they've added to the game that doesn't have a great height (Walking Dead map). Its like while making this map they forgot these perks existed and that not every killer can fly/teleport.
Kudos to the visual design team tho, by far the best looking map we've gotten. They seriously need to rebalance it though, its too large and too flat.
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@Your_Dad_Playing_DbD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4100722#Comment_4100722
Nobody on either side should be allowed to abandon until the gates are open or until all survivors are dead/downed/hooked. People keep bringing up all these scenarios outside of EGC that aren’t relevant to this discussion. We’re talking about when the game is literally over, not when someone just feels like it’s over because they’re not doing well. It’s a bunch of whataboutisms and nobody offering a single legitimate reason that killer needs to be required to stay in the match ones the gates are open to wait for multiple minutes because people who are bad sports want to rub their win in the killer’s face.
While I completely agree with you, the examples people are giving is just straight up whataboutism, there is one point made. Until the killer abandoning is able to create a killer bot, instead of just outright ending the game, a lot of endgame related survivor tome challenges or weekly quests would be made infinitely harder, if not in some MMR brackets impossible. Killer players would abandon every time you're about to get out through the exit gate, or when you wait to get the hatch after your teammates escape. It'd be quite the nuisance in that regard and not really solve the actual problem of survivors 'holding the killer hostage' for the full 2 minutes collapse timer. I'm all for letting the killer leave early, its just not really possible with the way the game currently works.
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@Oputeev_Stas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4100674#Comment_4100674
Steam and Epic players can no longer unlock DLCs after a recent banwave about this when devs fixed it, he probably legit had Belmont but used cheats apparently, but don't worry he will be banned later if you reported him
As someone who has played Counterstrike for a decade, cheaters always find a way. I’m sure right after that hotfix and ban wave cheat developers already found a way to auto-unlock everything again and the guy I just faced is on a brand new account. Under 200 hours with 2 P100s is like a single prestige per hour played at my estimation, which is nuts. He had perks from other characters too which means he had to P1 a few other survivors too.
Idk, either way I’ve kinda been losing hope in the state of the game. Just wish BVHR would do something about the MMR system, pallet density, and probably hardest of them all, the anti-cheat. The lack of new content isn’t even that bothersome, I can suspend my disappointment with smaller, less exciting chapter releases if these other things were being worked on. Even when playing hopeless matches of comp Counterstrike against blatant cheaters I never felt such an overwhelming urge to disconnect from the game like I do playing killer on DbD lately. At least there’s some kind of enjoyment from outsmarting a cheater in a game like CS. In DbD when you get a cheater you might as well Alt-F4 and go play a different game, because unless if they decide to stay very subtle about it, there’s no way to outsmart them and get enjoyment out of the match.
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@Oputeev_Stas said:
Sure if they add killer bots, because survivors have challenges on endgame too, before posting something do a basic math please
This is something I forgot to mention, if killer bots were added, and it didn't end the game when killers abandon, then there'd really be nothing stopping this feature from being added.
Also just played against a cheater (I had around 50 ping he had around 40) where I'm on Wesker in Hawkins Lab, already a terrible map and killer combo. Still, chomping through 900 pallets, finally catch this guy playing Richter Belmont, already weird because who plays Trevor let alone buys the legendary character for him? Anyhow, I down him and manage to hook him twice, then right at the endgame, downing him at the last gen could mean turning the game around in what is currently a near-loss. I hit him mid-pallet drop animation, his animation bugs out and he just slides away from the pallet without dropping it and somehow had dead hard endurance in the same milisecond. Okay, maybe it was just a little desync, clicked his dead hard and pallet drop keys at the same time, I think it's happened before. Chase him for another 20 seconds, hit him through a pallet again, this time it actually drops but I downed him. He is on the ground for about half a second, then his player picture flashes with the downed icon, then he gets back up still in deep wound from when I hit him with dead hard. No adrenaline, because that would've removed deep wound. The guy just legitimately enabled invincibility. I lose the game with only one kill from some poor teammate that decided to trade hooks with the cheater, then the cheater calls me bad in endgame chat. Private profile on Steam of course, checked their SteamID online and they have under 200 hours but P100 Myers profile badge and P100 Trevor Belmont. Not a console account either. How am I getting so many cheaters in my games? It feels like its always when I'm playing Wesker too, its genuinely ruined the character for me. I miss grabs on dashes that clearly hit, I slide off of survivors or get stuck on random pixel collision on objects or walls. And even when none of that messes up my chases I'm getting so many cheaters that win anyway.
I genuinely wish killers didn't have a disconnect penalty at all because the game has legitimately become unplayable for me on killer this last month. My kill rate on most characters has plummeted from around 60-70 percent to the low 30's, and I never really cared about winning or slugging for the 4k, but now if I even get a whiff of winning I have to take it when I can get it if I want to ever reach Iridescent 1 on killer for the month.
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I actually don't think the idea is terrible. Currently the best toolbox for sabotage or generators is the Commodious, leaving the green toolbox or mechanics toolbox both kinda pointless. Reworking toolboxes by removing the sabotage function from the Commodious, making the mechanics toolbox have a better sabotage speed, and making the sabo-speed addons unlock sabotaging for toolboxes that don't have it by default would be better.
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@TurboTOne said:
I personally don't see the Point in having to watch the Survivors jiggle their Physics at the Exit Gate.
Maybe you can put some other Conditions in. Like, that all Survivors are either injured or healthy. or at least not on a Hook.
but i don't see the point in forcing the Killer to either wait out the Survivors, or "try to get a Kill anyway" As if that is always that possible.
Does it help and teach good Habits? No. But we don't do that with Survivors either so who cares at this point.Honestly I think you could go even further, why not let the killer abandon the moment the last generator is completed? I have so many matches against subtle cheaters that I've started to stopwatch my matches to prove I'm not paranoid, marking a lap for each generator that's finished. I just played a match that only took 4:52 to finish all 5 generators, which included using two pain res tokens, 2 pop goes the weasels, and that's also accounting for 3 survivors on hook throughout the match. No toolboxes or gen speed perks. Literally the gen I kicked with Pop was 40%, chased around it for 20 seconds with no one on it, chased away from it for another 20-30 seconds, boom, it was finished, just like that.
If this game's awful anti-cheat can't detect people remotely auto-completing generators in my face from half-way across the map (happened to me literally just days ago), then why should I be forced to spend 2 minutes chasing around cheaters who I'll never be able to catch in the endgame? It's insulting that I might have to spend more time after the last gen was popped trying to get what little bloodpoints I can than the time I spent in the actual trial. Its like, you can almost never catch them anyway, they make it near impossible with how they subtly speed up around corners to reach every pallet or window. I'd abandon 9 times out of 10 if the last gen is finished and I still have 3 hooks, like come on, the game is over. I fully agree its frustrating when survivors won't just leave and let the game be over.
BUT, there is a gargantuan issue with implementing something like this, and that is survivor players trying to do challenges, like escaping through the hatch or the exit gates, would get robbed of it almost every time if killers could just abandon the moment the endgame collapse starts. Its why realistically there's no justifiable reason to implement something like this. Would it be nice for the killer player to avoid wanting to put their fist through their monitor for an extended 2 minute humiliation tour? Sure, yeah. But its not great for the health of the game itself, the match cycle would be thrown off. It'd be like survivors being able to abandon as soon as they get downed on death-hook, which used to happen a lot before the disconnect penalties were added. It ruins the other players' fun if say for instance that downed survivor was about to get flashlight saved. Now you've got a braindead bot for the rest of the match because the survivor DC'd instantly thinking the game was over for them when it wasn't.
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100% to all of your points, ranged killers require the most amount of technical skill but are also the most rewarding. I feel like Cenobite might actually fit all 4 criteria you listed, but maybe I'm just biased. He telegraphs when he is about to spawn a chain by lifting his arm out, survivors can see the portal open about a second before Pinhead can send the chain out, it takes an incredible amount of aim against decent survivors (its the size of a trickster blade with the environment hitbox of a huntress hatchet), and best of all in the current pallet density he is somewhat playable. The entire point of Pinhead's power has become a counter to the 'pallet game,' forcing survivors to prioritize stuns instead of pre-dropping everything and holding W. If you drop too soon, chain. If you drop too late, chain. If you run away too quick and don't dodge, chain. Then there's breaking chains on the environment or teammates bodyblocking chains. Most other survivor players probably won't agree since I get a lot of hate for playing Pinhead, but I find him genuinely fun to face. He's one of the very few killers that has their power completely reliant on survivors' actions, which can be annoying while playing as him. Some smart players will treat the box like Victor and hold it hostage all game until you chase them.
Overall though, the game just feels so stale for me on both sides right now. It has become pallet drop or hold W simulator on survivor, or break pallet and hold W simulator on about every killer. All of the low tier killers are mostly unplayable now thanks to the pallet density, all in the name of making the high tier killers more beatable in solo-queue or casual lobbies. I'm not sure who these changes were designed for, but I don't think it's improved the health of the game or playerbase at all. I am a more casual survivor player who solo queues in 90% of my matches, but I still don't win matches I should because the killer is forced to play dirty at every turn, and the matches I do win feel cheap. Like, finishing all 5 gens before the killer gets 3 hooks is just sad, especially when I can tell they're trying their best and they're not bad at the game. Its just there's nothing they can do if I (a barely decent survivor) knows how to just run around a tile. A lot of the current pallet spawns and loops are incredibly difficult to mind-game or outsmart survivors on. With all this said, I feel like everyone I know who plays this game is the most tilted they've ever been, forced to take a break from it, and not even content creators have much to write home about with the current state of the game.
I think the root of the current uneasy feeling playing the game lately is actually a simple problem. The balancing has to be addressed directly, not by increasing pallets on maps, and not by giving pity buffs to low-tier killers. What they've done has broken the RNG on the majority of maps. Its almost back to 2016 DBD in terms of the ridiculous chains with like 6 pallets all spaced only 10 meters apart on tiles that are sometimes 16 meters wide. It forces any non-ranged killer (even Ghoul or Wesker in some cases) to break each and every one of them if they don't want to bloodlust just for the survivor to drop the closest pallet and make an infinite out of them. Maps that used to be shining examples of balanced RNG like Coal Tower or Wrecker's Yard are now the ninth circle of hell where you have to pray that the game doesn't flip out and spawn half of the map's pallets in a single area rendering any survivor who goes there untouchable for about a 4 minute chase. BHVR needs to just make straight forward balancing decisions, like they did for The Blight, and nerf the top tier killers in meaningful but not overkill ways, and lower the pallet counts on maps simultaneously. This way the top tier of killers is more in balance with the lower tier, without having to make any changes to the vast majority of the killer roster. They also should be going map by map and tightening the RNG to have guaranteed pallets in certain places, making exceptions so that if pallet A spawns then pallet B can't spawn right next to it. Or if tile A spawns here, tile B can't spawn right next to it and create chained window infinites with 4 pallets between them. The devs have gone on record stating they want maps to be a factor in the survivor/killer sided nature of a match, that's fine. But the way it currently is working is basically survivor leaning almost every match, but then practically unwinnable for the killer in at least 1/4 matches.
Something has to change, survivor gameplay is the least engaging its been for me since the busted release Ghoul had, and killer is the most difficult its been in the 3 years I've been playing at least.
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Anonymous mode really should just be for streamers and content creators who want it on their end to censor others names, not for them to hide their name from everyone else. Being able to hide your profile or name makes it impossible to track down cheaters in my lobbies (which there has been a sudden increase of lately). I just had a match four minutes ago on Wesker where I dashed halfway across the map to check on a gen that was in the new Black Banquet tile (wide open, no cover to hide behind) and as I got about 10 meters away it was completed. But there was nobody there. Looked around for a solid 30 seconds at the area around it, no scratchmarks, nowhere they could've sprint bursted over to with hidden scratchmarks from a perk or anything, no lockers. Nothing, there was no one there. Self-completing generator. Got into about a 40 second long chase on a Dwight in the same match, only 2 other players left alive, the last 3 gens all completed about 5 seconds apart.
Well, if someone was cheating, I'd at least be able to check their profiles on Steam and see if maybe this is the only game they own, note how many hours they have, if they've been banned in other games, etc. Same goes for console players even, you can search their gamer tags and get a little bit of info to go off of on who might be the person cheating in the lobby. That match I described had two players, both default cosmetics with hidden names, the Dwight and a Feng Min. Guess BHVR just expects us to report everyone in the lobby? Like how I am supposed to recognize which of the 4 survivors made a generator complete itself if I can't even get the littlest of info on their reputability as a player?
Also I feel like the block function (if it does anything) should come with a list of players you've blocked in the settings menu. I haven't blocked that many, but it'd be nice to see if any of the people that were so blatantly cheating or griefing that I blocked them are now banned or not.
I understand the position of streamers or people who want to protect themselves from harassment, but its a two-way street. The harassers are using this feature to protect themselves from accountability as well. So if we're expected as players to use the report feature to identify cheaters and bad actors in our lobbies, I'm not sure how we can do that without unintentionally flooding the report system with false flags, like when subtle cheaters give everyone in the lobby a hacked advantage. It could be anyone, and there's absolutely nothing to go off of when they completely hide their identity.
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People forget that you can use dissolution with serpent soot and the beast soot together and force uncloak whenever a survivor vaults a pallet. Not as effective as this combo probably, because you’re required to injure someone then cloak for the effect to work. But it basically makes it impossible to win a 50/50 on a pallet if you drop it without a stun.
I haven’t seen any wraith players running turn back the clock like this yet, but it doesn’t sound terribly overpowered or anything. Does he instantly get his extended swing, or does it just uncloak him?
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098747#Comment_4098747
Its not for gen progress, its so they can physically reach the TVs before they can be spammed several times. If they dont turn the TV off, Onryio can rapidly just fill their condemned meters.
Well, uh, they only spawn next to gens… so…
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098704#Comment_4098704
The important point for Onryio here is the condemned, not the actual mobility. They didnt want her to start stacking bunch of condemned immediately before survivors can reach the TVs. You can argue Jason is good at patrolling gens... but thats not an argument for initial cooldown. What your saying isn't something specifically for the start of the match, but just that OE in general is strong. You'd have the exact same argument that its strong for the rest of the match, a cooldown at the beginning isn't touching that.
But that is the entire argument for Onryo's cooldown at the start of the match. Her ability (condemned via teleporting in TVs) is too powerful to be active so early, so survivors get the cooldown as a time to get a little bit of generator progress. Jason's mobility and gen patrol is too powerful to be active so early, there needs to be a little bit of buffer time for survivors to set up, spread out, and get a little bit of generator progress.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098686#Comment_4098686
Onryio and Dredge both have those cooldowns so survivors can have a chance to do the appropriate counters they're SUPPOSE to do with those powers. Theres specific interactions... This isnt even me guessing, this was a question I asked the devs way back when. They didnt want Dredge popping out of a locker on someone who spawned in shack 2 seconds after the match started.
This isnt the case with Jason. Theres no threat of him being onto of a survivor THAT fast and theres no special interaction survivors need to do ahead of time. You can argue the ability is OP or stronger than Dredge, but theres no reason for specifically a longer cooldown at the beginning of trial other than just cuz you felt like a nerf should go somewhere.
There's no counter at the start of the match for Onryo though, that's my point. All TVs are off for 30 seconds, you don't need to grab a tape, in fact you cannot grab a tape from a TV that is off. I suspect the only reason she has that 30 second cooldown is so that survivors can start on some gens, otherwise she'd be able to start snowballing the game immediately if she had something like say the 10 seconds Dredge has. This is the exact same reason I think Jason should have at least a 10 second, if not a 15 or 20 second cooldown at match start. The reason that Springtrap doesn't have this restriction, for example, is that his doors are slow, fixed spawns near generators that require him to either bring Lethal Pursuer or go to 3 or 4 different doors guessing someone might be there each time. There's a hiding counterplay with him that can waste a lot of the killer's time, allowing survivors to spread out and start working on gens on opposite sides of the map. Not to mention if the Springtrap player isn't using the doors themself, the survivors could use them to get around the map.
With Jason he can just click one button, go into his ability, zoom around at 8m/s between every generator on the entire half of the map survivors spawned on until he sees 1% of a generator done, teleport to a nearby window/pallet, and anyone within 16m who didn't crouch at least 3 seconds ago screams and is revealed with killer instinct. He has an incredible advantage at match start that no other killer gets without bringing what are usually iridescent rarity addons.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098668#Comment_4098668
I dont really see the reason people want the long initial cooldown at the start of trial. Like I said before, there's actual reasons for it on Onryo and Dredge to have a window at the start of the trial. Jason on the other hand is basically in the same boat as Dracula at the trial beginning. Theres no real reason other than to give a random nerf.
Onryo can't even be interacted with at the start of the trial. Her cooldown doesn't make sense in that regard, as its for a whole 30 seconds, which is much longer than the time it takes for most killers to start their first chase, potentially even down a survivor. And for Dredge it wouldn't break the game if he didn't have to wait 10 seconds considering most people agree his counterplay is kind of unnecessary with the game's current balance of killers. The only reason Jason should get a longer match-start cooldown is because he has a ranged ability where getting into an instant chase as soon as the game starts is often a guaranteed down, which getting a hook that early increases the chance of the killer winning by like 10 fold. The fact he can immediately give chase right as the game begins makes him the easiest killer to snowball with right off the bat.
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Even if they made them 50% it'd still be hard to understand why they're rare offerings and take up an important tier of rarity in addons and items for both killer and survivor. But at least then they'd be somewhat useful, a flat 50/50 chance for the map you want. Not sure why they made them only 20% if they weren't even going to let them stack, as that's the only reason to make it such a low value, if a full team of survivors could bring the same map for a 80% chance, killer would make it 100% if they somehow brought the same exact map offering.
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@Gamedozer7 said:
I've been seen a lot of creators make videos lately so I figured i would make a post here.
I want to start by saying I've been playing dbd on and off for around 6 years now, I started a little after the clown release and I have killer anxiety. There's many times I load up and get to the killer screen and just stop or maybe sit there trying to find a killer and start thinking of all the stress. That bully squad that was on point and just made that match feel like crap or the match that I ended up having a bad first chase and the game steam roll out of my hands so quickly and then I just close the game out because nah I don't really want to deal with it I'll go play thing else.
I have agree with refined that I'm maybe not be the devs intention but it's most definitely there responsibility to fix the problem. If your game is actively giving one side a real form of anxiety there needs to be some form of change. I think that more attention should be brought to this subject.
I know I'm about to get the loud minority of survivors coming in here and saying how dumb it is and that the killer role is easier them it's ever been but just because the hill your trying to climb is now a 80 degree angle now instead of 90 doesn't make it easy.
If you all want leave your stories here get them out we can try and have an actual discussion.
I'd be willing to say that well over 80% of the 'killer anxiety' people are describing is attributed to the desire to win the match, or at least get within reach of it. Despite this, people are subconsciously driven toward playing killers with lower win-potential to sort of justify to themselves that losing the match wasn't their fault, it's the game's fault, because BHVR won't balance the character to be as strong as X, Y, or Z meta killers.
Might be harsh to say it, but if you don't play to win, if you lower your expectations to being a loss in most of your matches, I bet that most of your stress or worries playing killer will fade away. It's definitely easier said than done, because I've caught myself playing for fun and getting caught up in wanting to win half-way through the match. But if you can change your mindset, chances are you won't care whether or not the survivors flashlight save 18 times in a row in the same trial. You won't care that you get Head-On stunned every time you turn a corner to hook a survivor. And you won't care that the Sable player you could've hooked 12 times over is Tea-baggin' it at the exit gate before they escape. I've found that the less I care, the more pleasantly surprised I am when I do win in those matches where it looks like I'm getting hopelessly bullied.
Changing your mental and being in control over your own reason for playing, your own state of mind, is sometimes all you need to not be upset by feeling a lack of control in the game. Because that's why losing frustrates most killers, it doesn't feel like you're in control, the 'power role' of the game. Its also why a lot of the killer matches I have to try-hard in still frustrate me even when I overwhelmingly win. Feeling in control is something you subconsciously chase after when you play killer, and not getting that feeling can crush your mental if you let it.
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@Sakura_Arisawa said:
I’d like to talk to you guys about pallet density, because I really feel like that’s exactly what was buffed again recently.
It can’t be that, once again, as a Survivor, you only have to run 5 meters or less to the next pallet. Tell me, why do you all hate the Killers so much? Because, in general—and from my personal perspective—it feels like you really want to drive every Killer player away.
In all of my last 10–20 games, I’ve been getting hit in the face with wood despite being careful, because pallets have been spawning in places you wouldn’t expect, among other things, and—as I mentioned—there are way too many pallets on the various maps.
It’s getting more and more frustrating for Killers right now. Survivors don’t need 200,000 training wheels, and from my personal perspective, DBD feels like it’s leaning heavily in that direction right now. I understand you want to make the game more casual-friendly, but here’s my question: is it really necessary to work against an essential aspect of the Killer role to the point where it’s no longer fun?
Unfortunately, among other things, you’re also greatly fueling “killer anxiety” because killers now have to be more afraid of the survivors than the other way around—since there’s a pallet at every damn corner, or a flashlight safe at every turn, or even hooks being removed by survivors.
I’m asking you, Behaviour, to take this problem seriously and look at both roles—especially the killers. Thank you.
thanks chatgpt, very cool
no but seriously, pallet density is such an ironic name for the changes they made, because the problem was never the density of the pallets, it was always the amount. Maps like The Game had too many pallets, and maps like Toba Landing had too few pallets. The pallets being far away from each other meant chaining them in chase required a lot of planning, or you had to just treat the one pallet you were looping like it was your only resource. It required so much more skill in chase that is kind of lost in a lot of maps when I play survivor. I had a particularly braindead game on Suffocation Pit where I just dropped 5 pallets on a Clown that were all within a 20 meter radius of the main building, meaning I could just vault the window, go to a new pallet loop, drop it after 15-20 seconds, go back to the main window, rinse and repeat for all 5 pallets nearby. It eventually started to feel mind-numbing, and I started to pity someone playing Clown for the first time, one of my most hated killers when I was a new player.
It feels like the 'density' change they made on most maps just cranked the amount of pallets up by 15 to 20%, saw that it made more pallets spawn close together, then called it a day. Meaning some maps create RNG dead zones still like before, but then spawn 10 pallets in one corner of the map, when you were lucky to get 10 pallets total on the entirety of Wreckers' Yard.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
No I'm not complaining about tunneling in general, i tend to be understanding of the concept. The thing I have an issue with is the worst kind of tunneling. Standard tunneling is whatever, if you find a double hooked surv and a no hook surv on a gen, you have a choice and the double hooked surv is the tactical choice every time. I'm talking about hard repeatedly tunneling the same surv off hook to the exclusion of all others straight off the bat. Heck I'm not even that fussed about tunneling straight off hook if it's done mid-late game.
It's this situation. Killer gets their first hook after a realtively short chase, realises that surv is mid/weak at chase. Killer then proxy camps said hook, maybe they manage to force the surv to stage, then as soon as the surv is unhooked, they hit them off hook and commit to the exclusively chase them again down them quickly rinse repeat. You get one survivor dead at 4-5 gens left. That one survivor has no chance to play the game, and the rest of the team is screwed because the game is not supposed to be a 3v1. We've all had games like that.
There has to be a system where the game can recognise that the killer is focusing out one player to the exclusion of all others. In the specific situation where you have 2 hooks on the same player, 0 hooks on anyone else and they are chasing the 2 hooked player there should be some kind of game intervention. Something that stops this kind of play dead. Peehsps a system where the surv on taking the second hit straight off of hook gets teleported to thebopposite side of the map and insta hesled or just invincibility or invisibility that gets cancelled if the killer hooks another player or if a survivor struggles out (obvs I wouldn't want to see survs abusing a mechanic like this for free bodyblocks) this would give the tunneled surv an opportunity to get out of the killer's sight and have a chance to heal and actually try to counter play by going stealthy so they can still achieve something in the match.
Normally it's fairly rare but I've seen an uptick in this kind of play from killers over the last couple of weeks, probably killers getting tilted by black banquet, and an awful lot of jasons too. I'm sure some people will simply call skill issue over this, but this type of tunneling is immensely easy for killers to do and very difficult for all but the best survivor teams to effectively prevent. By the time you realise how hard killer is committing to this it's usually too late to simply genrush. And it literally tanks the game, one surv gets next to no bp and is dead within minutes of the game starting. And the rest of the team is screwed unless there is a wild skill gap between killer and the 3 remaining survivors and they just so happened to demonise the 1 weak surv in a group.
I don't think there's really any solution for this problem other than continuing to disincentivize killer players with less bloodpoints or rankup pips for hanging around hook or camping survivors to second-stage. A lot of killers lose their games for trying to play this way because they end up picking on a survivor who is better than them, and learn quickly to try and hook everyone at least once to assess who the 'weak link' is on the team. At least then its far enough into the match that tunneling is a strategic decision rather than an active commitment to not allow someone to play the game.
Every anti-tunnel measure they could possibly add, as proven by the couple of PTBs they did specifically around these issues, has proven to be incredibly abusable by survivors who know what they're doing. There are ways now to kind of force a killer to chase a survivor with decisive strike and dead hard, waste enough of the killer's time that even if they realize what's happening and give up chase they still end up losing.
As an example, you add a system like they have now for survivor where if you purposefully get killed by the killer, you lose a rank grade, but for the killer tunneling someone out too fast. Then you'd have bad survivors that basically give up getting killers punished with their grades lowered. Recently I've been given one or two warnings that I'd lose my survivor grade for "giving up" when hard tunneling Ghoul players repeatedly suck all the blood out of me right off of hook and downed me 5 seconds later with no pallets or windows nearby.
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Killer 'apologist' youtube channels whose sole purposes are to complain about every new killer release being underpowered would watch that video and tell you that his spear is still worse than Huntress' hatchets because he can't carry 7 spear hooks on his back and throw them in quick succession like Robin Hood firing street-sign sized arrows at people
Jokes aside, his reload is really not as debilitating as people think. Once you reach a reload point its instantaneous, unlike Huntress or Trickster who both take 3 seconds of standing still in front of a locker to reload. One would think that with only 10 scrap piles on the map, this would be worse than the around 20 lockers on average that spawn on most maps. However there is also usually at least 10 hooks, sometimes an upwards of 15 hooks, on any given map. Meaning even the most generous estimate of 25 lockers on a map would be tied with the most generous number of reload locations for Jason, also at 25. Some could argue his scrap piles and hooks are usually in more favorable locations than lockers, as not all tiles spawn with lockers in traffic areas, some don't spawn any at all and instead have them in dead-zones or edge-map locations.
Overall his spears having the hitbox size of a hatchet with the environment hitbox of a Trickster blade is pretty crazy and gives a lot of potential for him in chase, which makes the other half of his kit (omnipresent evil) being overtuned so much more baffling. Makes me wish they gave the same treatment to Cenobite whose tiny chain gets stuck on everything in the environment, but hitting survivors has to be dead center like a Trickster blade. Seriously though, did BHVR think everyone would disregard Jason if he didn't have a trick for every situation? Mini-moris or pinning survivors to counter flashlight saves and decisive strike, pallet breaking when exiting OE, instant reload at as many locations as other ranged killers, free info on survivors in lockers or standing still while in OE, map mobility the speed of Blight, and a 12 second cooldown on OE allowing it to be spammed in chase. The list goes on. But the best part is that they didn't bother giving him actually useful perks, so there's no reason to buy the chapter other than for Jason himself.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098549#Comment_4098549
CAN he hear the totem? I know alot of audio is turned off when hes in OE mode such as grunts of pain.
I feel like he should, he can hear generators. Its just noises specific to survivors he can't hear, like grunts or breathing. Its not specified on the wiki I don't think, so I'd test it to be sure honestly. But it'd make sense that he can hear the cleansing, chest opening, healing, etc if he's close enough, since they're kind of environmental sounds and not survivor specific. If they got rid of the whole "red mist being visible when standing still," and the tradeoff was him being able to hear some of these noises, I think it'd be a lot fairer than the current 16 meter extremely noticeable red mist that gives away your exact location for free.
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@cogsturning said:
Diversity? How many Twins, Krasues, and Henrys do you see? Ghoul, on the other hand...
Maybe its just a mixture of my region, MMR bracket, and the times of day I play, but I get a surprising amount of Henry's and Krasues, and I swear over the past 3 years I've played against all 15 twins players in NA at least twice each. So whenever I get a game that isn't Jason, Ghoul, or Nurse, its a Krause/Henry or the occasional 1% pickrate killer from the rest of the roster. Something funny like a Clown or Pig. But that's one out of every 10 games probably on a good day. I once had 4 Ghoul games back-to-back, broken up by 2 back-to-back Nurse games, then a Henry, then back to Ghoul, then Nurse again, and a Henry again. Let's just say I didn't have a good time playing that day, and went outside to go stare at grass. Watching it grow was genuinely more entertaining than playing competitive dead by daylight every match with Timmy-Two-Hook and Pre-Drop-Patty on my team
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@Xendritch said:
As I've gotten used to him I decided the problem with Jason is his synergy with hexes especially Thrill. If you make him unable to see people on totems in OE or nerf Thrill I think he's mostly fine.
Its actually a misconception that he's able to see players on totems specifically. Technically he's allowed to see everyone who has not been crouched for more than 2 seconds with a red mist. It happens that performing any action (cleansing, healing, repairing, etc.) counts as standing and not crouching, even if the playermodel is crouching. Totem Jason would still exist even if they removed his ability to see red mist on standing survivors outright, as he could always pass closer by the totem and hear the survivor cleansing it. Currently its just extra overkill since he can see red mist over the totem from a maximum of 16 meters away while he zooms past it at 8 meters per second lol
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098390#Comment_4098390
Yeah this is my issue with jason. Either one of his powers would work well enough on it's own for a killer. Particularly the spear, far and away the best single ranged attack any killer has atm.
Both together is kinda of nuts.
Are you absolutely sure his recovery is worse than huntresses? I might need to test them in customs but having played both I'm sure huntress is slowed and unable to swing for longer after a shot than jason. Or maybe it's the disruption of jason's attack pushing you and making you hut and object that you then have to move around.
Statistically yes, his recovery speed and time is slower and longer than Huntress. The reason he feels faster is because he’s a good 5 or 10 percent faster moving while he’s holding the spear about to throw it, and like you mentioned it stuns survivors for almost a whole second when they get hit by a spear. Huntress hatchets allow instant movement.@LordGlint said:
I feel like its fair to point out that Jason's teleport isn't similar to Dredge's. Dredge has a longer teleport cooldown at the beginning of the game since he ACTUALLY can teleport across the map. What we call Jason teleporting alot of the times is just him entering his stealth form and moving quickly. Hes more similar to Dracula in that sense who also doesnt have to wait to enter bat form to move across the map.
While I agree with your statement, the speed that Jason moves in omnipresent evil is essentially a slower teleport. Also in actually moving across the map, he gets 20x the amount of info a Dredge would from checking 3 lockers, which he’s forced to exit the third locker. Overall Jason either needs a slower “teleport,” or he needs the info he gets while in it greatly reduced. Currently he has both and it makes Dracula’s bat form look like child’s play (it moves at 6.5 m/s compared to Jason’s 8 m/s and he’s also both audible and visible during it, and cannot see survivors other than scratch marks) and Dredge’s teleport look like a joke.
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@Yamalive said:
Its their new cash grab. They wont change it for about a year at least.
It's sad if that turns out to be the case, because in the past the devs used to be very quick to patch or rework killer releases that were overtuned. In fact, they'd sometimes go too far, nerfing their latest money maker into a chapter nobody would want to buy anymore. Even Ghoul at least got the bare minimum nerfs a month or two after release. I'm just hoping we see some kind of readjustment to Jason within this month, he still makes up around a 5th of my matches.
I didn't really mention it in this post, but I think all 3 of Jason's perks could also be reworked or buffed in some way as well, as a benefit not just to him but killers overall. His perks currently are just too niche and weak to fit into any type of build currently available, not to mention they're almost all completely useless on Jason himself. Undetectable when you have omnipresent evil is pointless, purposefully getting stunned for haste is not good since you get 5% haste for 25 freely, and the hindered perk has too many requirements and is a cleansable hex. Even on other killers you have to go so far out of your way to get any value from them that they just aren't worth bringing, which is sad, since Shane's new survivor perks are all 3 at least useful in niche fun builds.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
Personally i think his OE and spear ranged attack are way too strong while combo'd together.
I think either his haste when emerging from OE needs to be nixed, or while he has the haste buff, his ranged attack should be disabled and for 5 secs after the haste ends.
As for the spear itself the reload needs to be either more scarce, or slower. He absolutely does not need a free hook spear when he hooks a surv. He also needs a recovery time with reduced movement spear after a throw. I'm sick of getting double tapped when the spear planks me out a metre after it hits me, and he just keeps moving at full speed to follow up with an m1 less than 3 seconds later.
Funny enough when I was looking at comparison stats he has a 1m/s slower movement speed and almost a whole second longer cooldown after throwing a spear than Huntress. The reason he feels so strong for two taps is that he’s so much faster than the Huntress and can reload instantly, which he has quicker than half of the charge time it takes to throw a spear than Huntress does a hatchet.
I think even all of that would actually be fine if it weren’t for his oppressive map mobility. His ranged attack has so much skill potential, he really doesn’t need such constant mobility and info alongside it. The haste after every jump scare is definitely overkill
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@nedimnedo2001 said:
At this state I don't even see the use for it, it's like sprintburst but way worse, I understand initial speed was busted, but at least make it like 100% unlike 50% that's now
They changed the wording. The "busted initial speed" WAS 100% haste, which is what you're asking for.
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Less: Ghoul, Jason, Nurse, Twins (it’s one every twenty games but that’s still too much), and sadly Myers (they made him mind-numbingly boring)
More: Demogorgon (endangered species at this point), Cenobite (just because he’s my main killer), Huntress (power crept into non-existence), and Ghostface (only one I’ve had in months just hard facecamped, 4-man slugged, then flamed my team in end-game chat lol)
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097895#Comment_4097895
I literally said that. Please read my post, my god.
I did read your post
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097614#Comment_4097614
You are missing my point entirely.
I AGREE WITH YOU. I am a nurse main with thousands of hours in this game. Why do i main nurse? Because i like to win, plain and simple. I'm not hiding that. My point is I AGREE nurse is a problem at the highest levels of this game. But the BIGGER PROBLEM is that we have 1 killer that is probably way too strong, maybe 1-2 that are a little too strong, another 2-3 that might be "balanced" and then the entire other 35+ killers are completely trash tier and useless at that level.
To me the BIGGER PROBLEM is not that 1-3 killers that might be a little too strong, but the 35+ that just can't hang.
The 35+ are the bigger problem that need to be dealt with first either by massively buffing killers as a whole or nerfing survivors as a whole, while then taking those killers who are too strong, bringing them down a peg.
All I was saying is that in order to make those 35+ other killers playable at high levels, you'd have to nerf survivors. Whether if it's by base values, perk reworks, or just simply lowering the amount of pallets back to how they used to be, none of that can be done without tackling those 3 to 5 killers are that overtuned. Or else they'd be even more ridiculously unfun to play against than they already are.
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I had finally gotten a good 10 game or so break from Jason players just to get 5 jasons in a row, again, and I have to say in that short amount of time I forgot just how overpowered he is. Literally how does the content creator part of the community not see how blatantly busted he is? They used to be so brutally honest with BHVR on balancing stuff, why be so milquetoast or outright silent on Jason? In practice he is actually more powerful than Nurse and no one can convince me otherwise. His skill floor is so much higher than Nurse's, almost anyone with a basic understanding of the game can pick him up.
The thing that makes him feel so much harder to face than Nurse is the fact he is never not in chase. At least with Nurse you can kind of time waste on one side of the map, force her to pick her chases wisely and be able to macro-game by finishing the right generators to force the last 3 gens to be too spread apart for her to patrol properly. With Jason, he can literally chase two survivors at once, pressure half of the map's gens while still in chase, and then proceed to pressure the rest of the map as soon as he gets a hook. He can just zoom around indefinitely until he finds someone doing a gen, so the game just ends up on an indefinite pause if no one wants to be the one to get chased.
He is in dire need of at least some nerfs, if not some reworks to his addons and power. There's no reason he should be a better version of Huntress with a "reload" debuff to excuse the fact that he also has the best map mobility (+information) in the entire game.
For reference, here are some comparison stats.
Weapon Charge speed: 0.9 seconds (Jason), 1.9 seconds (Huntress)
Thrown Weapon speed: 42 m/s (Jason), 40 m/s (Huntress)
Charging Movement speed: 3.2 m/s (Jason), 3.08 m/s (Huntress)
Throw Cooldown speed + duration: 2.0 m/s for 2.5 seconds (Jason), 3.74 m/s for 2 seconds (Huntress)
Haste Ability: 4.6% for 25 seconds upon reappearing (Jason), 3% haste for 5 seconds upon hitting a survivor (Purple addon, Huntress)
Movement Ability speed + exit time: 8 m/s + 1.5 seconds (Jason), 6 m/s + 3 seconds (Wraith)
I'll let you come to your own conclusions on how Jason is or isn't a jack of all trades, master of many.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097568#Comment_4097568
Take the literal best player for each killer in the world, and pit them against the best survivor team in the world and play 10 matches in lets say a perfect world where they can play a balanced map that has no map RNG and all 10 matches have the exact same spawns and layout.
Now think about that, and tell me how many of those killers do you think would win even half of their matches in that scenario?
The goal should be realistically about half of their matches, maybe a margin of error 10% here or there, for every killer to win in a scenario like that. The issue is that the devs have had a tendency to balance around the 5 killers that'd win well over 50% of the time in those scenarios rather than balancing them around the goal of a 50-60 percent winrate. You get what I'm putting down? The best Nurse player in the world would probably wipe the best survivor 4-man in like 80% of the matches just on the fact that survivor skill expression is limited to saves, and Nurse's whole ability is "i teleport right to you," which can easily counter anyone trying to save. Every match would basically be a timed trial on how quickly the Nurse player can 4-man slug the survivor team.
Nobody here said survivors aren't powerful themselves. Some perks are clearly more equal than others, and overall the meta needs another shakeup with some perks reworked to compete with DH, SB, DS, the usual culprits. Everyone is tired of seeing the same 10 perks every single match. But at the same time, people are also tired of seeing the same 5 killers every game. Characters like Jason, Ghoul, Dracula, and other jacks of all trades, master of many, need to have their kits seriously reassessed. Nurse, like I've said, is hard to balance. You'd have to fundamentally change the game around her current kit to make any real kind of balancing. But the others are fixable, and the rest of the killer roster could use some quality of life changes alongside those fixes.
But honestly I think half of the current balancing problems with weaker killers is that the devs decided to almost double the amount of pallets spawning on every map, and assumed everything was A-Okay just because the top 5 strongest killers were unphased by it. Used to be that playing Trapper, you'd have a trap for almost every single pallet if you wanted to lug them around, shuffle them to each part of the map. Nowadays some maps have more god pallets than you have traps. For 90% of the killer roster it feels like hell on earth, three long-wall pallet loops only 10 feet apart, chainable to multiple windows, often times the shack. But for Ghoul? A god pallet is usually a guaranteed hit, just vault the moment they drop the pallet and you win. Nurse? Just teleport through it as they run away. Jason? You get the idea…
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097055#Comment_4097055
So if we look at the average player and balance around them, then it is simple. Nurse actually needs buffs and if you don't think so, then you are biased and simply want BHVR to balance around AVERAGE survivors, but HIGH LEVEL killers.
How would Nurse need buffs if you were to balance around high level survivors? Or even average level survivors for that matter. She overperforms in anything outside of the tier with newer players. I also said specifically "I agree that balancing shouldn't be done centered on the lowest common denominator (the average player)." I am advocating BHVR consider the top level of play, the highest a killer can achieve, whenever they make balancing decisions. I feel like they took this approach with Blight, by leaving his kit untouched and lowering his base speed, he is now harder for new players but more or less the same for the high level players. There is a lot of reward from mastering the character, and not just learning them.
There are too many killers who have a match potential that is capped lower than the floor for other killers. An incredibly inexperienced Bubba, for example, can outperform an experienced Hillbilly in some cases due to the ease of use. Bubba infamously can get guaranteed kills from face camping, like in the endgame. A Hillbilly, on the other hand, has a much more complicated kit that will be harder to get such guaranteed kills. If you measure from the top level of play though, Hillbilly will outperform Bubba by leagues because of that same complicated kit. Where Bubba is usually forced to break pallets, Hillbilly can play around them with his chainsaw sprint.
I'm not sure how you read my comment and got the exact opposite interpretation of what I was saying. I want BHVR to stop balancing around new players, on killer or survivor. Its already hard to pick up the game, they should just accept that and focus on making the game fun and fair for once the new players get the hang of it.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095975#Comment_4095975
We shouldn't balance the game around the lowest common denominator. And IF SO, then you need to explain to me why killers like nurse and blight would need nerfs.
Blight is now in a good state in my opinion. Nurse however, would require a complete rework to her power overall. No amount of balancing can really make a character whose whole design is "i teleport straight to you" truly fair.
What you're missing is the proper perspective. Blight and Nurse are the lowest common denominator. When survivors of all skill sets load into matches against these characters, with only some variation in perks and maps, the outcomes are statistically measurable. The top tier killers are considered top tier for very good reason, they give both the highest chance and highest potential for winning with the lowest amount of relative effort. There are killers that vary among those factors, though. Trapper has a low chance of winning, high potential, fairly low effort. The Cannibal, known for snowball potential, but also a low chance of winning, easy to learn as well. Ghoul is so problematic because he is high win chance, high potential, and very low effort. BHVR went about balancing him on release by tackling the ease of use aspect, which was definitely his best trait, and is now somewhat fair to face. Nurse may just have to stay how she's been for years now simply because you cannot lower her ease of use any further without ruining the character. You'd have to lower her win chance or chase potential which is not easy with such a simple killer power.
I believe I understand what you mean, and I agree that balancing shouldn't be done centered on the lowest common denominator (the average player), but the stats BHVR uses is often a measure of everyone, all levels of play and not just casuals. If a killer is stomping very skilled players, then the devs can obviously conclude that they will stomp newer players too. We can only hope that, given the last year of reworks and balance changes, that the days of "nerf Pig" and Sadako reworks are behind us, and they can focus on making the killer roster more evenly capable. Which, you might not like, means both knocking down killers like Jason, Nurse, Ghoul, The First, Dracula, all just a smidge while lifting up the rest of the roster just a little.
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@Royval said:
One of the more unhealthy releases to date of course next to Krasue
best part is that Jason being 4.6 wouldn’t even be the worst thing if it weren’t for his teleport ability with just a 12 second cooldown. When he misses his single ranged attack then it would be high-risk high-reward, as you’d be forced to chase on foot as a M1 killer until you can loop around a hook or scrap pile to reload from. Instead, there’s basically zero downside to missing.
“What’s that, you missed your one spear on hand?”
Just go invisible, grab another from a nearby hook/trash pile, and reappear on the pallet the survivor was running toward which blocks it for the animation duration and a few seconds after so you can get a free hit, which often flings the survivor into a dead zone so you can two-tap them.“oh, I missed and need to try again?” 12 second cooldown
Just get to do it all again, every 12 seconds, until it works and you get the hit
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/469456/are-disconnect-penalties-really-necessary
Because DCs will increase to insane levels. You said yourself you don't want to play with bots and should be allow to DC if other players DC. A lot of people already DC and just take the penalty. It would increase massively if dc penalty was removed.
As for game balance, it has always, still is and likely always will be an absolute mess. An asymmetric game will always be impossible to perfectly balance. So saying the devs "refuse" to balance it is a bit unfair. Doesn't help they churn out a new killer and new survivor perks every months, but have to keep that money rolling in. Unfortunately it's just something qe hsve to tolerate of we want to play.
I do get the frustration, believe me. Dbd can be a very frustrating game when you're on a loss/death streak. As killer I find myself having to either play constant meta builds and strong killers, or play like scrub and hardtunnel/proxy camp to win games with less meta builds or weaker killers. But that is the nature of the game. You really don't help yourself by only playing soloq. Soloq is famously bad for survivors, no communication plus random often useless teammates means you'll die in the vast majority of your games. Swf would be much more pleasant, find 2 or 3 friends to run with and you'll have better luck and probably more fun, having ppl to chat with makes losses a bit less unpleasant.
I don't think its unfair to say "refuse" when we haven't had a meaningful perk rework or balancing change since the Trickster chapter refresh, and that was just a handful of perks from that chapter basically. One of which was entirely problematic and had to be reworked again, and another one of which a lot of players still complain about (self-preservation)
We wouldn't need to work the game around disconnect penalties and abandon options if the game were in a healthy enough state for the average player to not become miserable or bored in the middle of a match. Eventually it happens for so many games in a row that they just want to Alt-F4 and play something else. That's all I'm saying. The balancing will never be perfect, but I can literally remember a time not so long ago where there were not this many disconnects in my games. Even going as far back as before the penalties we have now.
@Raptorrotas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095520#Comment_4095520
Bring back old nurse!
And suddenly most "casual enjoyers" will demand harsh regulations and strict balancing.
You can have a casual game with strict balancing. No one booting up Call of Duty Black Ops Zombies back in 2011 was sitting there complaining that there should be disconnect penalties, or how you should get a temporary ban for throwing a game, going afk, buying the wrong door at the start of the game, or anything else. I'm sure you'd agree to define CoD Zombies as casual. Okay, now imagine all of the balancing decisions that actually went into making the gamemode by Treyarch and Activision. There's a point system, getting normal kills or knife kills gives different point amounts, every weapon has a different point purchase value, every gun had to have a different damage value that wasn't just copied and pasted from the campaign or multiplayer. Thousands of different possible influences on the flow of gameplay. Many guns were made purposefully bad but had unique uses when upgraded. Its a great example of the intricacies of even a simple, casual game.
Balancing is just as important in casual games as it is in competitive games. Not in the same seriousness and nature of a competitive game, where the goal of balancing is to make a fair playing field of opportunities, kinda like a game of chess. But in the nature of making the experience and interactions of your opportunities equally viable. I've complained numerous times that the main problem of DbD's "metas" throughout its history is that the pool of viable perks was always infinitely smaller than the actual ocean of perks we had. Currently we have over 170 survivor perks and you're lucky to see 20 unique perks used in 20 different matches. There are already categories of perks (aura reading, exhaustion, action speed, etc), the goal of balancing DbD should be on making all the perks in these categories equally powerful in whatever their given use is, of course depending on if its niche or general. If every perk had close to an equal value across the match dead hard or decisive strike both bring, then maybe you'd see a lot less decisive strike and dead hard. Monotony is the death of fun. Just ask anyone who has a "two week minecraft phase" lol, even something you absolutely love and enjoy can quickly grow old if you hammer at it long enough with no variety.
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okay this is just ridiculous, same map, same killer, same bug. gotta be a pattern. and i cant even disconnect
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@Gamedozer7 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095460#Comment_4095460
You will almost never get to actually play the game if the dc penalty is off. Sure if someone dcs then so can you but what happens when that's practically ever game? This is what it would look like load into a map survivor doesn't like said map dc. The. Everyone else dcs and you q up again then you do it again 5 more time and if your luck everyone is happy with the map and the killer and the perks each side brought oh never mind someone dc because one surivor brought urban Evasion.
I mean, you're not wrong at all. And I don't support removing the DC penalty entirely, my questioning of it is completely hypothetical of course. I wanted to spark debate on the topic in general. But honestly, I think part of the reason the game is in the state its in gameplay wise is because with the DC penalty we feel expected to tolerate so much more than we used to before the penalty was added. You don't just feel an obligation just to your teammates, the offerings/items you brought, or the killer, but to yourself, as if you quit you don't get to queue again right after. It does create a conundrum though, how many survivors would permanently ban the Nurse, Ghoul, or Jason from being played against ever again if there were an in-game option for it? How about a map ban option, would anyone willingly play Badham Preschool again?
If the DC penalty were gone, BHVR would have a plethora of statistics to look at, for better and worse. Wouldn't be great for the quality of your individual matches, but you'd definitely be able to see what trends appear in killers/maps that make people disconnect so early.
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@Your_Dad_Playing_DbD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/469456/are-disconnect-penalties-really-necessary
If you’re not enjoying the game, then don’t play it. Allowing people to ruin others’ matches consequence free is not the solution here. Plenty of people are having fun with the game, evidenced by the all-time high player count. People who are not enjoying it are either burned out (which is fine, I get it) or just have unrealistic expectation relative to their skill level.
I mean, that's kinda the whole point of this discussion. When I play survivor, people leaving is what ruins my match. I don't want to stay in a match where the killer will just slug me for the 4k or tunnel me out because someone ragequit and I'm left with a bot as a teammate who refuses to unhook if the killer is within 40 meters of the hook. I think it'd only be fair that if one, or maybe to be more modest two players quit, then I should be able to abandon.
@Carth said:
"This is a casual game for crying out loud, not Counterstrike, not Valorant, not Rainbow Six"
Says who? You can apply this to literally any game.
"I want to troll in rainbow six siege, this isn't league of legends! Lol! Stop Sweating"
"I want to troll in valorant! Why are people mad, this isnt rainbow six siege?"
"I want to troll in counterstrike, why are people mad at me? This isn't league/rainbow six, stop sweating!"
If you argument is "Game is not X it's Y!" You can apply that to literally anything. at Its core DBD is a pvp game which means people will take it seriously, if you disagree that's more than fine but to act like "ITS CASUAL LOL ANYTHING GOES" I mean at that point why even balance the game at all? Bring back old CoH, bring back old gen kick meta, bring back old ruin, bring back old brand new part and ebony mori? Who cares, it's casual right?The problem with your argument here is that, as someone who has played all of those games (other than Valorant), the comparisons made don't really work. Who is trolling in Competitive mode on CS or R6 and not getting flamed, kicked, or teamkilled by the randoms on their team?
The whole point of that sentence from my post is that I didn't sign up to play competitive Dead By Daylight when I clicked the play button on the menu in the normal gamemode or the anniversary event. And yet people will rage quit at the first sign of the match going sour. They don't even wait to see it play out, if their teammates can recover for them by doing an extra gen, getting a good save, and what not. I've seen people get downed, disconnect before the killer even picks them up, just for the bot to then get flashlight saved. No amount of disconnect penalty can truly prevent them from being that entitled and easily angered. The more you increase the penalties, it'll just mean the less they'll play the game. Which hey, maybe in the long run, that will be the healthiest thing for the game. But the other side of that coin is killer matches where survivors do the objectives at the slowest speed possible and basically just 3v1 you in chase for 10+ minutes straight to make you miserable and ensure you can't play the game normally, since the killer objective is hooks. Killers are the center of the match's flow, they determine everything and survivors merely react to it and have to play around the killer. So if the killer is not having fun, the game is just over. Hence why BHVR hasn't added killer bots to the main game yet, just 2v8. It would be more or less redundant in normal pubs.
It's probably a big ask, but if there were a proper implementation of a not abusable surrender feature/condition of sorts, for killer and survivor, like when teammates DC or as killer when you haven't gotten a single hook in about 5 to 10 minutes, you'd be allowed to abandon, I'd feel like I have more control over my enjoyment of the game. I wouldn't feel so contingent on getting teammates or opponents that are good sports and aren't just going to hold me hostage or sabotage my chances of escaping.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095448#Comment_4095448
But you realise that by removing DC penalties, you're going to be seeing even more bot teammates, right? You're just exarcebating the problem.
I'd just leave too, that's my point. I see the bots either way, I just don't want to play with bots anymore.
I was using DC penalties as an example for the discussion. The abandon feature exists, why not extend it to those kinds of scenarios? You can keep the penalties, in fact go ahead and triple or quadruple the amount of time the disconnect penalty is for. But allow other survivors to choose whether or not they want to keep playing.
As for killer, its harder to say what the solution would be. Killers really can just effectively go AFK if they decide the match isn't going their way, as I mentioned in the main post. So the DC penalty kind of just prevents them from getting into another match immediately. Perhaps the killer abandon/disconnect conditions are fine how they are now.
But for survivor I think the enjoyment is too dependent on your teammates thanks to the asymmetrical nature of the game, and being able to abandon if someone you aren't queued with decides to ruin the fun and leave could alleviate a lot of frustration.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095424#Comment_4095424
So you end up with a situation where basically every match is all 5 players DCing. One does it, then they all go like dominoes after that. There would be no game.
"Properly balanced" is, like "casual", this very vague idea that everyone views differently. What does it look like? You have killers with drastically different kits on maps with drastically different structures, plus RNG, and then a simplistic MMR system that's hard to improve because what do you accurately factor besides kills and escapes? You also have different playstyles and perk synergies and anti-synergies. I feel like losing to perks is too simple. You're losing (or winning) to luck, randomness, and opponenet choices. Soloq is always random because of teammates. There's no fixing that. If Blight wants to tunnel the weak link at 5gens it's gg. Both sides have quick slants in one direction that have so much momentum they can be impossible to stop. That's beyond just balancing. That's the entire game.
I feel forced to bring decisive strike but I rarely get good use out of it, I’ll always get double-tapped anyway because I don’t have teammates that coordinate around it.
Try something else? People never seem happy with these obligatory perks. I chew right through this DS as killer and hardly ever get tunneled anymore running other stuff (until Jason anyway). Also, maybe find a SWF if you want that sort of coordination and team play.
The one thing I will say is I feel like I almost always go agaiant people better than me in both roles. But i imagine that is because I also maintain above goal numbers. I think the way you feel is the price you pay for those stats.
At this point im not sure if mmr even accounts for just wins and escapes anymore, I must've hit some kind of mmr level that you can't derank from because despite dying like 80% of my matches for the past 5 days, its not getting any easier.
Also finding a SWF kinda defeats the point I'm making. I solo-queue, that's what I do. And as an asymmetrical game, if 1 out of 5 players don't want to play, it can ruin the entire match. Even if I find 2 friends to queue with, that 4th random could still disconnect. I'm just proposing that the penalties don't seem to mitigate it meaningfully, at least in my experience. In fact, it just makes me feel obligated to play miserable matches that were basically over 5 to 8 minutes ago even when I've hit the max on bloodpoints or rankup pips I can get from that game. Making so that maybe if 2 out of 5 players leave, that the other 3 can decide to go next. Because you're right that people would leave like dominoes in some matches, but there are a lot more players like you and I that would still at least try with a bot on the team. I don't think the option to abandon once a single player DC's would cause the abandonocalypse, the driving factor of this game right next to fun is bloodpoints, and you get a whole lot less of those if you leave the match too early.