slugging tunneling and genrushing are not toxic.
I keep seeing people call these toxic but all these are, are just ways to play to game effectively they are not toxic at all. this would be like calling getting headshots in an fps game toxic. the only in game action that is toxic is giving up under hook because you screwing over 3 other players.
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Honestly I would say it simply depends on the context of each scenario.
If 1 person is tunneled out at 5 gens, then yeah thats just toxic 9 times out of 10. On the reverse - tunneling out someone at 3/2/1 gens is perfectly acceptable.
If on the reverse- say a killer is struggling to get even a single hook or two, and 3/4/5 generators fly by very quickly- that is toxic on the survivors part.
Yes I understand that those strategies are the most efficient, however, if I am not mistaken - the goal of DBD is not to neccessarily be a super competitive game, it is more-so a "casual" game.
Depends how its used.
Is tunneling and camping one survivor at 5 gens effective? No. Is it likely gonna be considered toxic because your effectively denying one person from playing the game? Yes.
Is slugging when theres flashlights around the smart play? Yes. Is it gonna be called toxic? Not by anyone reasonable because that would be explicitly stupid to pick up someone in that situation.
Is slugging everyone to bleed out effective? Can be depending. Is it gonna be called out as toxic? Ohh absolutely.
Is doing gens with a gen build effective? Probably. Is it going to be called toxic? Depends on the person.
Is doing gens with a gen build and the killer trying to tunnel a person and failing effective? Defiantly. Is it toxic? Not by anyone reasonable.
These are tools. You can easily build a house with a hammer just as easily as you can break someones head and depending on which you do with these tools, yea it can be toxic.
i wouldnt even call tunneling out at 5 gens toxic its the same as 3 survivors jumping on gens while ones in in chase its just bveinf effective.
first the survivor issue:
Survivors completing their objective quickly isnt toxic, "Genrushing" is just their only way to play the game, if anything I would consider prerunning and avoiding contact with the killer more toxic than genrushing. (not to mention bully squads, although they usually suck and end up losing)
second the killer issue:
If we're unbiased, Slugging is way more practical than picking up and hooking in some situations, some killers kind of need to do it for pressure as much as its annoying to deal with, meanwhile Tunnelling is blatantly toxic when its done from the start of the match, and the reason for that is that endorsing a game mechanic that effectively prevents somebody from playing the game is extremely toxic. I understand that sometimes there is a direct reason to tunnel and as some other people have said when you are down to three gens and the game is going bad for you as a killer tunneling becomes a valid and important part of the game. this again falls on the shoulders of the Devs to make strategies which harm the gameplay experience unviable. they do not do this, instead they release endless bandaid perks to make a problem seem "not as bad" when the problem lies with core gameplay.
It seems like these issues are always going around and both sides of the argument have valid points, if you are a killer it is efficient for you to tunnel and slug sometimes and it isn't your fault that the game has been designed this way. If you are a survivor it is efficient to rush gens because there is no other way out of the game. what needs to happen, though its extremely unlikely, is Behavior needs to fundamentally alter the game to where ruining it for someone from the beginning is bad for the one doing it, and avoiding confrontation while gaining objective progress or excessive altruism builds are unviable and harmful to survivors. the problem is they dont consider it, because those changes are hard for them to implement, they would rather just release another perk that solves a niche problem that people very rarely encounter while terribly balancing the frontrunner perks.
Idk, in my experience, genrushing is rarely something that is achieved intentionally. There are genrushing builds, which are their own topic regarding “toxicity”, but genrushing on its own is too vague a concept to be (or not be) described as toxic.
Tunnelling is a choice the killer makes, however. And regardless of the killer’s intentions with it, another player’s gonna be affected by that choice. Said effect is typically a boring match for at least 1 out of 5 players, likely more than that if the killer is succesful. That match may as well be called a waste of time for those players. That’s not a good thing, no matter how you slice it.
Whether it’s “toxic” hardly seems relevant. It just sucks to face. Simple as.
If tunneling is toxic because it ruins the game for one person then gen rushing is the same sense your queue as killer can be longer then the match it self so why does it apply to one side but not the other if its bad on one side its bad on the other and tunneling is just genrushing for killer its just doing there objective quickly. The devs should make hooking new survivors rewarding but last time that happend survivors didnt like the killer getting benefits and killers didnt like how you were put into allt of lose lose senerios with the anti tunneling.
its this, I do not understand why so many players are absolutely unwilling to see how removing a persons ability to play the match that they queued up for is a toxic mechanic from the outset. not even referring to the players doing it, its available to them so they will do it, but that doesnt make the mechanic itself any less bad. its awful and it needs to be entirely phased out as viable and until then people will continue to do it at different levels.
So is it toxic to make the killers match shorter then their queue time? Because 4 people with gen build can do gens un under 4 minutes making it so the killer basicly didnt get to play the same way the survivor didnt get to play. And you cant remove tunneling with out ru8ning the game for killer sense like we have seen twice now if you punish killer for tunneling swfs will just weaponize it. Immagin if survivors got punished for gens popping to fast. That would feel horrible and killer would weaponize it the same way survivors still weaponize free bt.
this would be like calling getting headshots in an fps game toxic.There's lots of things in FPS games that have been called toxic. Spawn camping, hiding in corners, broken weapons, sniping from nearly impossible to hit positions, 'lag grenades', etc.
Now, probably because FPS games have actual competition, the most egregious of these issues were actually fixed back in the late 90s through the 2000s. However, they were all toxic behaviors because they ruined what actually made the games engaging and enjoyable.
Yeah, it's pretty difficult to actually tell definitively when it is considered "genrushing". There are certainly genrush builds, but I think the survivors may only be considered definitively genrushing if they're all running builds like that, which I rarely see. Simply having 3 survivors on gens while 1 is in chase is not genrushing, that's literally just the survivors doing their objective. And it's not comparable to tunneling at 5 gens as the OP would suggest, as simply playing the game and not wasting all your time doing dull totems or staring at the floor is not the same as ruining someone's gameplay experience for the sake of being as efficient for the win as possible.
Personally I'd more see a survivor equivalent as bully squad builds and luck builds. Bully squad builds, while maybe not the most efficient to win, can ruin a killer's gameplay experience by spamming Head On, flashbang / flashlight saves with Background Player over and over, possibly even a bunch of Flip Flop + Power Struggles. In this play style there are a lot of things that can be unfun for the killer, although like I said I don't think it's the best way to win and it definitely can be punished. That's why I think the luck builds are much worse, because it can't really be punished. Creators like Otz have literally said "I don't know how this isn't cheating" because it's so unfair, and like tunneling at 5 gens it sacrifices one player's experience for maximum efficiency.
My opinion on the original post is this: Tunneling, slugging, and "genrushing" are not always toxic. Some members of the community might consider one thing tunneling or genrushing while others might not, some might consider something toxic and others might not. It really just depends on the situation.
I don't think anything else (besides I guess tbagging and humping or something) is really "toxic." I'd say if something significantly impacts someone's gameplay experience and it feels like crap to go against, then it's something worth considering toxic. But I think many times we use blanket terms to cover both the toxicity and the fair play.
I agree both sides want to win thus they do the best to do so. Bringing best perks, best add ons and rush their objectives asap. Tunneling killers are not toxic, they just want to get advantage of 3v1, so survivors with flashlight and bodyblocking are not toixic they just try to help their teammates. Toxic I can see when killer slugs you and purposely leave you on the ground untill you bleed out ot when survivor is teabagging.
You did not read what I wrote. I explicitly avoided calling it toxic.
Tunneling at 5 gens is not "toxic". Just because you can't loop for ish doesn't mean it's morally wrong. If you wanna argue slapping on hook, W/Sing, teabagging at exit gates/windows/pallets, flashlight clicking and gesturing from safety, sure why not, I won't defend those because they have no direct effect on gameplay.
Nothing wrong with slugging, camping, genrushing or body blocking either. These actions impact gameplay.
Its interesting how "genrushing" is only "genrushing" when you dedicate a build to it.
By that logic "real tunneling" is only possible on nurse and blight with their best addons.
I argue that genrushing is merely the act of priotising gens ( x survs on x gens, preferably finishing 1 gen 1-100% unless interrupted, going back to gens you know have progress if interrupted etc). Its exactly the same as tunneling.
Oh and if you cut the game short its the killer who gets annoyed, not the gens, just to get that one smartass argument out the way.
As for the "at 5 gens" argument. Survivors go full force from the start at 0 chase, 0 hook, 0 kills. Why should the killer arbitarily go easy on them if the killer cant know that up to 3 gens will pop in the same timeframe it takes for 1-2 hooks. "At 5 gens" can turn into "at 2" gens at any moment after 1.5 minutes into the trial. Its such a vague vatiable timeframe to restrict killer agenda with.
Even when I know this will get downvoted a lot, yes both are going for max effiency in each sides objective and both are very unfun to go against for opposite side.
The comp players do it all the time spreading gens asap as survivors and killers go for hard tunnel every time they can so this kinda proves my point.
Its just same in grant scheme of things its going for 100% efficiency with being super unfun to go against for 100% (I cant imagine someone who likes/loves to be tunneled at 5 gens or loose 3 gens in one chase).
Only one who comes to my mind are comp players but I dont think they care for fun that much as they do for results, they are on top of that used to it and expect it a lot more then other players.
DbD in a nutshell. Just biased double standards.
As someone who’s plays both sides equally, there is a clear difference in playability. A killer who gets “gen rushed” isn’t adding enough pressure and can’t differentiate between tasks to keep the game going, but a survivor who gets tunneled out makes no blood points, is only forced to be in chase and the killer gets a free alert. Killers need to take more responsibility and nuance when it comes to picking your targets or tasks. A bad game for killer still makes a good amount of bp, a survivor who gets tunneled out doesn’t. Sorry that your emotions were hurt because 3 gens got done but that doesn’t justify tunneling, your build is just bad. With no competitive mode even in the game I’m not even sure why you want it to be a mandatory 4k every game when the goal at the end of the day should be bp for everyone. Thats why survivors go afk or bot out so often. Even a bad match as killer can still be fun. And I’m not saying give them a free win, I’m just tired of every game having tunneling and the only people to suffer from it is survivors.So MMR is a joke, no ranked or competitive, and all you’re working toward is bp. Killers need to be punished same as survivors who go afk/crows/botting.
You get very little bp if your gen rushed and if the survivor was better in chase they would get more bp. Why is it the killers job to make the game enjoyable for the survivor? Is it the survivors job to make the game enjoyable for thd killer because i can tell you its not. The people's job it is to make the game enjoyable for both sides in the devs and I mean both sides make the game ones sided isnt good.
It’s the killers job to move the game along I never said it had to be enjoyable. If it wasn’t the killers job the game would just be skill check simulator. We have perks and addons to assist but what’s the point of equipping those if you’re just gonna go hook to hook. More often than not players are in solo queue anyways so it’s not like you’re going to have top tier communication between survivors. But by removing a players chance to even participate in any activity other than chase isn’t fair, to them or their team, on top of killer having the full ability to counter flashlights the second they see one IN LOBBY. But even with a full build to counter tunneling or slugging, survivors still lose. Flashlight spamming isn’t that bad and if you let them flash you a few times it’s dead anyway. In my opinion I find it funny as killer and have dedicated builds toward pallets/flash). If y’all don’t want to play with some kind of fineness or a plan as killer then maybe you shouldn’t.
This never happens by the way, maybe one in every hundred games if we're being extremely generous. Tunnelling happens every other game. and regardless, that isn't even the same level of issue, thats a patch/hotfix level issue where things are tweaked to make it not possible to do that. Tunnelling is an actual problem ingrained in the game and cant be fixed by just throwing another perk/rebalance at it.
"impacting gameplay" has nothing to do with whether or not something is toxic. actions (whether done by survivors or killers, or heck literally anyone in any video game) that remove a player or players ability to experience the game they are trying to play are Toxic in a literal sense of the word. they are bad for the game in question. this is why Slugging and Especially Tunnelling will always be bad for DBD, right now they are a viable strategy but they should never be. which is why it is at the fault of the Devs that it is. I have no idea why it would be an argument or why some people can't see that something which is very obviously detrimental to the gameplay experience is exactly that. someone said it earlier, Spawntrapping/Camping in FPS games was a super massive problem for years and it was possible to do that within the confines of the game, and it was also extremely toxic and ruined everyones experience and so it was made impossible in many newer FPS games. DBD needs the same type of adjustments.
Wholly agree. I'm jumping on whatever opportunity I have regardless of role and if you're not having fun play something else. I'm not even saying that in a sardonic way - please play something else and come back fresh. I had a period where I just wasn't getting anywhere and I took breaks and came back which led to me eventually getting good enough against good killers to actually have fun win or lose. That's the whole point - having a great match and respecting the tug of war.
Slugging and tunneling are viable strategies because the decks have made the alternative for killer objectively worse to do. Why would I hook survivors when they get a ton of perks turned on and why would I spread hooks when all it does it make my pressure weaker. The devs encourage slugging and tunneling with how the design perks and maps. Its the devs fault for slugging and tunneling not the killer just like its the devs fault that gens and healing can be done so fast. On "impacts gameplay" everything impacts game play is pallet stunning toxic is using your power toxic is hooking toxic all things that take or change survivor or killer "agency". And not agency no its a game your agency was signing up for the match you joined the match knowing all the posible out comes you were not forced to play the game so no slugging you doednt take away your agency. You had the agency to bring anti slugging perks but didn't because you didnt think it was a big enough problem to bring just like your not losing agency on killer when gens get done fast but you brought no gen slow down.
You're just echoing what I said: The Devs are at fault, and people need to stop endorsing that fault by calling extremely bad mechanics "parts of the game". DBD Feels worse to play every year because the same lasting problems persist, there's tons of new content and there definitely have been QOL stuff that I appreciate but they have handled the most consistently problematic aspects of the game by just pretending they should be exactly what they are and nobody at all likes it. it's devolved into Survivors complaining and not wanting to play the game at all as soon as someone is tunneled and killers that go out of their way to slug and tunnel more because they know it makes survivors angry.
the "Solution" to this has been to solve the problem by doing anything except actually addressing the problem. IMO Dbd has absolutely not been constructed in a way that warrants high level competitive play, its just impossible, there's no Ranked system besides the monthly bloodpoint rankings which you can get to Iri 1 extremely easily, MMR is bizarre and unreliable, Solo Queue give no way for survivors to even communicate, the same core perks are constantly relevant while a vast amount of perks for both killer and survivor are either niche or totally useless most games, and the main objective hasn't changed or improved at all for either side. there's absolutely no reason to try and force every game to be a 4k either under that system, which presents its own problem that plays into the never ending outcry against tunneling and slugging: People playing for fun are forced into lobbies with people who believe the game is supposed to be entirely competitive and the devs have not split the two up or genuinely clarified what even is considered a win.
its Lazy and its a horribly stagnant state of the game. Why are killers all relatively the same? why can't objectives shift per killer to add some level of replay ability to the game? why aren't there even preassigned chat options after all of these years for survivors? why are we surprised DCs happen so often? you know what else is crazy… in nearly every other team based PvP event there is no penalty for people to DC after someone else DC's, in Dead by Daylight there is. so you have people being immediately angry that they are the target of being tunneled, they DC, the entire game is ruined but people have to play it anyway just to load into the next game where its most likely either the same thing or a teammate/teammates are doing useless nonsense around the map instead of working to win in any capacity
more people need to speak up about the state of the game needing to change, rather than it being a war over obviously bad game functions are bad.