How would you change MFT?
I think we can all agree that this perk is overtuned. At the very least, the endurance should not be lumped in with an already powerful effect. If and how would you change made for this to be a more balanced and/or healthy perk?
I think I would give the haste while healthy instead of injured so you need to heal for value+punishes you for a bad play rather than rewarding you+remove haste stacking+remove endurance effect entirely. Or I would make the haste ramp up from 0-3 over 30s.
Comments
Healthy MFT is even more insulting than injured MFT.
I work rework it by removing the haste entirely and cutting endurance to 8s.
fair enough, I figured if it worked while healthy instead it would be closer to a dramaturgy situation in design. though i guess now that i think about it that might be a massive nerf to hit and run since getting the first hit would become much more difficult, and if hit and run becomes non viable then tunneling will be the only actual strat left.
is your rework idea in the context of also reworking buckle up? if not, how would this new mft just be a worse version of buckle up?
Remove the haste entirely. Make the endurance effect last more
Like this
I hate the perk both in concept and in practise, but if I put aside my own bias and keep the 3% haste: -
This : -
I'd also consider buffing Boon: Dark Theory to 3%, because if MFT can have it so easily, why doesn't the perk that has to work harder for and can lose it easier not have it too?
Edit: just realised the anti stack effect wouldn't work, because you have interactions like PWYF, Rapid Brutality, Bloodlust, the Clown Anitidote bottle for both sides, MFT, Hope, any of the Exhaustion perks, Skull Merchant tracking haste, and the Singularity Slipstream, Wraith, etc, etc.
This change cause more problems than it solves...
1% speed bonus
Activates after you are unhooked for the 2nd time
lasts for 15 seconds
To mitigate the problem scenarios with MFT, I would propose the following:
That's all it needs. The conditional and ostensibly counterable Haste effect is not inherently unbalanced, it can be implemented in a way that works, so all you need to do is trim down its problem areas.
Buckle Up only works on picking up slugs. MFT works on healing. Also, MFT shouldn't work on picking up slugs.
I would just leave it as is but make the perk start at 1%.
Each time you are unhooked, MFT increases by 1%. Up to 3%
I’m just throwing ideas out there
make the activation condition for the haste be getting hit during the endurance from the perk, and remaining for the duration of the deepwound (this makes the haste tied to the endurance part of the perk, rather than having 2 perks in the same slot)
so its a gimmick perk instead of ridiculously op, and you know when it happens as killer bc you watch the pickup, watch the endurance state, and can choose to ignore sonic the survivor and theyll have to mend out of their haste if they want to do more than run in circles begging for attention
that is like the worst perk in the game lmao
I didnt know mft worked on healing. in that case i guess it does have its own role to fill and its own identity.
Disabled during Endgame.
That'd be my main change if they want to keep it a strong perk but get rid of one of the most broken aspects of it
Remove the Endurance
MFT now activates twice per game for 25 seconds when injured
Must be fully healed before it can activate again
Does not activate if downed from healthy
Causes exhaustion for 40 seconds when activated
There, fair and good perk that is still useful without breaking the game
Lot of your idea are just worst perk than some already existing
Dunno but, if you want so much that perks can't stack, all perks have to be rework, not only haste and for survivor
All gen speed of regression have to lost the stackable effect
All speed perks from survivor or killer have to lost the stackable effect
It's that what you want? Or it's only, again, only one side ?
People only pitch Haste not stacking because Made For This combined with Hope is absurdly overpowered, and because stacking it with most other consistent/longer term Haste effects is also too strong, to a lesser degree.
Do you have a way of fixing that without disabling Haste stacking? Because I agree with you, it would be a tiny bit unfair to only disable Haste stacking specifically and only for the survivor side... but it's kinda hard to avoid the fact that only the survivor side currently has a huge problem with it.
Disabling MFT in endgame fixes this issue
All other survivor haste perks are either exhaustion or suck so hard their haste stacking is irrelevant once mft hope is no longer a thing
Remove the Endurance effect and make it so that it won't stack with Hope.
Other than that, it's fine.
I'm confused, how is wanting the abillity to move faster than the killer gone somehow favoring killer by default? Or not even faster, just 5% more permanently etc etc?
Not seeing how my ideas are worse versions of anything. Permahaste is already hard to come by, making it unique by default with these few conditions comparatively. And all my suggestions keep mft's identity. To argue my suggestions are just worse versions of other perks is to say that mft is already just a worse version of other perks. My suggestions to mft directly were to make it activate while healthy and not have endurance, or ramp up from 0-3% over time while injured with no endurance. The first one is just mft but punishes bad play and is one perk instead of 2 in one. And the second is just MFT but you need to actually be a good looper to get real value from it, unlike now where thats better but optional.
Side note: What stacking regression effects? Are you talking about overbrine? in year 7? overbrine is useless and the only example of this, theres no need to remove it because its terrible and would be a waste of resources. But if it were year 6 I would absolutely say to remove overbrine stacking. the perks were balanced on their own and only became an issue when used in tandem, therefore they should not synergize.
Agree about staking. I don't understand why peoples want it. Imo perks should be designed with staking keeping in mind. Staking helps create some cool builds and it's actually fun.
And what about mft+hope combo: good looper with 7% already almost untouchable, mft barely helps here. In that case i think Hope should be 5%.
The thing is
I love to play F1 Hag, it's so funny to see survivor just, losing their mind to see a ######### hag rocket running in their directions, so I can understand why survivor play MFT wih hope, but again, they need to get in the endgame for earning it
Soma got three powerfull perks, and, MFT make no sense to have the endurance effect
the second point, I see lot of people saying "it reward bad play" again... Lot of killer perks reward bad play, noed is the most know, but, Hux come with another one, Machine learning, but, it's not the main point
The other thing that I don't understand, is when you compare MFT with Dark Theory
How a perk can give a permanant 3% haste effect when you are injuried, when in the other hand, you got only a 2%, in an delimited area, and only if the boon is up
Sometimes, I wonder if the healing nerfs never happen, if this perks would have been so popular, knowing that a lot of perks from killer punish survivor for healing
... I think, simply, if you want to nerf MFT, you have to delete the endurance effect, and using the old logic of hope; the perks is only active for some times before deactivating and you got exhausted
It gonna be more logic, plus, lot of people gonna be less angry
Calm down, it's not your idea that I pointed out, like the first one say about your idea, giving the haste effect when people are not injuried gonna be more harder to get a hit
It's more like people who want to remove the haste effect and nerfing the endurance effect to less than 10 secondes or get a haste effect during some second after unhooking WHO gonna make MFT a worse perks than some existing
If you want that I quote them, here you go:
Buckle up, SoulGard, Borrowed Times, Bloodpact, Gardian and Power of two
And I was just saying about gen regression perks, you can stack them and make them more powerfull, in the same way that gen speed perks, when you combine them, it can make a gen in... 20/30 secondes when you are alone
If now, we decide that survivor can't have perks who can stack, I don't see why killer can, even if it's asymetrical... a moment, you have to calm down
Right, but once they are in the endgame, what they have earned is an overpowered effect. It is too much strength for what they did to earn it, and also no matter what they did to earn it. No amount of effort or skill would justify the speed you get, permanently, from Made For This and Hope in the endgame. It's basically a free escape unless you massively mess up, or the killer happens to have some way of inflicting you with Exhausted.
MFT + Hope is too powerful, even as an endgame combo. It does need to be addressed, which is why people want Haste stacking removed. You do still have to fix MFT + Hope even without doing that, and probably MFT + other Haste perks too.
Haste (and for that matter anti-haste) shouldn't even be in the game unless it's for a VERY limited time (ie lithe is okay). It just breaks too many fundamental balances of the game. I'd fix it by completely reworking the perk entirely and remove the haste.
I dunno.
The value it provides at pre-emptive shift w, loops, pallet breaks, and vaults are all pretty insane.
You know what? Why not
"Made for this" "You were born to survive, and raised to adapt." "I didn't come here to be robot food!" — Gabriel Soma
Technically, what it say is the survivor who have this perks make everything for survive, for escaping... So, why not adding a condition
Condition where, the perks only recharge when you work on a gen, because you participate at the escaping with the other (or yourself) or when you help your friend, your teammates like lucky break?
The difference between haste stacking and regression stacking is that, at least in this meta, regression is earned through skilled plays. pain res and pgtw both need hooks and are the strongest regression perks in the game. Hell even eruption needs a down, not that the reward is proportionate. If you actually needed to earn haste stacking by being skilled it would be a different story. The only combo that has any semblance of skill involved is mft hope, where the survivor does need to earn hope. However just by also equipping mft you are unkillable in endgame. You dont need to earn mft, its active throughout the match too. Its a disproportionate reward compared to the effort and skill required.
Thats just mft hope, all the other haste stacks are braindead. all you need to do it consistently is a buddy with ftp, and for absolutely 0 skill you can permanently move at 112%. Off two perks for 1 heal. And for bonus points if you were injured when you healed your buddy then you just cant be caught. Not to mention for the low low price of 14 seconds of your time you can add an extra 2% into the mix. Its garbage on its own but it allows you to move faster than the killer permanently within range, not that you were getting downed to begin with. Then if one of you has hope you get to move an entire 9% faster than the killer.
Comparing stacking slowdown to stacking haste is a false equivalency. for those 20/30 seconds, i need a hook meaning I had to outplay the survivor and be skilled. Theres a hard limit to how much a pgtw or a pain res can be used too, and they can be avoided by being better than the killer. MFT and haste stacking overall are not skilled or earned, have no counterplay, and its just blatantly not fair to permanently move faster than the killer. Im not gonna argue dark theory is broken, but being able to stack it with mft for a permanent 5% boost isnt fair in any way
I can think of 4 haste perks for killer, machine learning, pwyf, devour hope, and noed. Machine learning has a powerful effect but you need to be losing the game for it to help you, and its not strong enough to clutch. PWYF requires you to build tokens off of a survivor, and you lose them when you swing regardless of if you hit. Devour hope barely even counts and requires a hook. Noed is the only killer haste perk thats strong, and its 4%, a hex, and only works in endgame. MFT is 3% and works all game, for free. Thats not to say noed is bad or shouldnt be a hex or should have its speed buffed or anything like that, its just for comparison. Every single killer speed perk has some activation requirement thats tedious to get or can be completely removed before it does anything. Should they be able to stack? if I'm being fair then no they shouldn't no haste should stack, not that its an issue atm but I digress.
PWYF needs you to find the obsession, leave chase with them, and then you lose the token on a swing for 5%. In practice you will have 1-2 tokens every few chases and lose them getting the down. Its effectively limited because thats how it needs to be to be balanced. A survivor can equip two perks and permanently move 5% faster in a decently large area. They dont need to run around and find the killer and leave chase for a token and then lose it when they get hit, they just have it. A permanent 33% chase extender in an area. That is all it takes.
Removing haste stacking would let bhvr be more free in their perk design as well. Exhaustion timers used to stack, but now they take the largest number. and because of that bhvr can make more exhaustion counters, not that they're any good. The same applies. Theres a reason power of two has a 140 second cooldown +2 more limitations. because if it didnt, then the game would break. that'd still be true if haste stacking were gone and it had no cooldown, but at least then they could adjust it more freely to be a strong perk that isnt bottlenecked by haste stacking. haste stacking was never balanced, mft just brought it to the forefront. at least before you needed to hang around a survivor the whole game so if either of you were chased then it was 2 off gens.
There are a couple ways you can go about it. The question is, should the speed boost be permanent or should it be temporary?
If you want the speed boost to be permanent, i would do the following:
This would make it so it doesn't take effect on the first hook, similar to old deadhard, and extending that first chase far more than it should, if this makes the perk too weak (per data) i'd consider removing the "while injured" requirement.
If you want the speed boost to be temporary, i would do the following:
Since you brought up noed, what skilled play has the killer to do to get that effect, since you demand strong effects should be earned?
Two thing
First one, If you read what I say before, I compare haste perk from survivor and killer, and gen speed perk with gen regression perk
I don't compare haste effect with gen regression, I was just saying IF we delete the stackable effect from perks for survivor, we need to do it for killer, it's pretty simple no?
Second, so, if I understand your logic, helping other teammate is not skilled? Like healing, doing gen or trying to survive, is not skilled? And even if it was not what you wanted to say
You take example from scourge hook and Pop, but, Ruin, deadlock, call of brine, overcharge... All these are also gen regression, and in the same way than pop and scourge, in term of popularity and powerness, and for some, you just need to kick, the other, just being a scarecrow or loosing a gen, all regression perks doesn't reward "skill" from the killer and to say that they are not powerful would be to play the ostrich
I take machine learning as example because it's the same "excuse" about MFT : "it reward bad play"
technically, machine learning reward bad play, you loose a gen
And for Food, technically, you have two possibility to regen quicky your token or not losing it, infinte tombstone myers doens't lose tokens, and if you play with game afoot or Nemesis, you have a way to regain quickly new token for play with your food, and probably more technic or combo perks (I think with furtive chase, never try, but I may be wrong here)
And, not all killer can be powerfull with stackable haste, but it exist, it's not well know, actually, but, for my first example, Hag, with her recent buff, who can run at 4.73 m/s with the waterlog shoes, and you take some haste perks like play with your food, game afoot or wathever, and she are just one of the fastest killer in the game, or, IF PEOPLE TRY TO LEARN HER... Skull merchant,she got lot of add-on who boost her speed, great for chase, where she can run at 4.7 m/s and it last 15 secondes after leaving the drone, and it goe's with my second point, her, and a lot of other killer, have add-on who make hindered for some times, the artist, skull merchant, Nemesis, Wesker got one basekit, blight, hag, etc etc
But for the example of skull, she can run at 4.7 m/s when survivor run at 3.8 m/s
Remove the endurance, add perma exhaustion, now works while exhausted.
3% bonus speed while injured, can't be used with other exhaustion perks because you are always exhausted. It would also act as a counter to Feamonger's exhaustion.
If you wanna add some kind of prevention for stacking haste that would be lame but most balancing decisions are, I would be fine with it. I just don't think it is super necessary.
Surv starts the game in an injured state and can't be healed.
6% haste + endurance on self-unhook.
I would do something like:
Remove Endurance effect.
After you take a hit (going from healthy to injured) -> If you are not exausted, you gain 3% haste for 40s. Makes you exausted for 60/50/40s.
Make this perk a exaustion perk.
I don’t think it should have two effects as it’s already a strong perk with one or the other.
Honestly better than the unconditional 3% speed boost.
lol
And killer mains would still complain
Suggestion based off of what I perceive the perk originally intended to do which is be a jack of all trades to save slugged survivors.
Now it's more of an altruistic perk more focused on anti slugging but it's very neutered and just an alternative to Background Player. Personally I wouldn't really change the perk but if you really wanted to stop it from being abused that's the only rework I can visualize that keeps its intended (assumed) purpose. I don't feel like the perk is fine in its current state but admittedly I wouldn't change it. Intention is to increase the potential use to save someone but reduce its consistency with running the killer all game with it passively.
Honestly though I feel like if it's problematic to the point where people don't want it passively increasing MS in chase the perk should be redesigned entirely. As in no Haste or Endurance - Just a new perk entirely. Although I don't believe this thread is specifically going for that approach so there's my suggestion.
Yeah, better to destroy a perks like that, nobody use it because the other have better effect
Right..
Remove the haste effect.
I'm fine with it being an anti slugging perk that is used for altruistic actions to help out the team. The haste effect hurts weaker killers exponentially more than it does strong killers.
You could give it another fun effect like cleansing totems faster or opening chests faster to give it synergy with other healing perks like inner healing and pharmacy.
Remove stacking. MFT + Hope shouldn't be a thing. I don't really have an opinion on the endurance aspect except to say it probably didn't need it, I feel like the 3% haste is a good enough perk.
Haste -> vaulting speed
Remove endurance effect entirely
You can delete this Perk with this effect. There would not really be any reason to run it. The end goal should be to have a Perk which is useable, not one of the few dozen Perks which are not even slighly worth to pick.
@Topic:
Optional:
buff haste and make it activate when you get endurance for healing.
and add an extra activation condition similar to WGLF
survivors when eruption: "the idea of preventing people working on gens for a little while is fine, just maybe bump the numbers down somewhat and let us do non repair stuff, it's quite overtuned right now"
killers when made for this: "make it make survivors weaker. make it kill the survivor instantly"
The killer doesnt earn noed, but thats mitigated by the survivors being able to remove it. Its an unhealthy and dumb perk but at least in most situations a smart team will only let you get 1-2 downs before they cleanse. MFT is 1% less than noed, is active all game, and cant be removed. Im not saying that to compare their strength im just saying thats stupid. Such a powerful effect should not be free and infinite with near 0 limits. Thats why every other permahaste perk has strict limits on it. Dark theory is 2%, yet you need to set up a boon, be chased in that boon aka take killer to the boon for value, hope its in a spot with a good gym and not just limited pallets, then go boon it again giving massive slowdown when the killer inevitable snuffs it. Its a potentially balanced version of MFT, high reward for high investment (with buffs, maybe a 4-5%). Right now MFT is like survivor noed. Its unearned, does way to much for being unearned, rewards and promotes bad play via hold W, has no warning or counterplay, and is overall dumb. Noed is equally stupid but at least its only active in endgame and can get removed, mft just gives you longer chases all game by virtue of equipping it.
Thank god some ppl on here dont make perks