What is the different between Dramaturgy and Old Dead hard?
Title
What is the different except Dramaturgy can be used when you are healthy and it has a side effect?
Title
What is the different except Dramaturgy can be used when you are healthy and it has a side effect?
Read THIS post.
Tldr: This is an archived version of the DBD forum, it has all posts, comments and media. The archived data will be published at the end of October. This site is not in any way affiliated with or endorsed by Behaviour Interactive.
Comments
The fact you can get exposed after it
Dramaturgy is entirely unviable in a competitive environment because of its drawbacks, but due to the nature of ranking up in this game (how you're still able to rank up after loosing/ being sacrificed) it's still going to be used a whole lot. This perk would be balanced in a game mode without badges where the only thing that mattered was escaping
Lmao "what's different between those things if you ignore those very important points that make one of them OP and the other a meme?"
I wish I could say it was surprising people are complaining about a perk that isn't in the game yet, is only useable when healthy and is 1/4 of the time and never twice in a row a weaker SB. Oh yeah and literally can make you exposed.
Dramaturgy works only when you are healthy which it's pretty hard. Staying injured is easier and that's why Dead Hard was so strong.
?
So what is the different?
OLD DH was OP by gain the extra distance when you ######### up, this new perk can do the exactly same thing except it can be used when you are healthy , and had a extra side effect (75% of time is postive).
Old DH was problematic bc of the invincibility effect. You can hit people during the dramaturgy speed boost, so it's just a much weaker SB and you don't get it if the killer hits you first.
Also "75% of time is positive": lol no.
1st option - Weaker SB, might as well have brought SB
2nd option - Exposed for 12s, free down if the killer isn't terrible
3rd option - Scream, best case scenario you're in LoS of the killer so it does nothing otherwise reveals your location to the killer
4th option - If you brought an item you're risking getting a worst one, otherwise the effect can vary from useless to really good depending on your luck.
Dramaturgy is super fun and DH was just annoying and OP.
It's different because it's not a burst of distance. You can be hit during it most of the time if you use it badly. Same with SB. But you couldn't with DH for distance. Do you even play survivor or just prefer to theory-craft?
It's probably a perk that might be somewhat useful for good survivor and meme level on average/bad survivors. There's nothing wrong with perks being that way. We even allow it for certain killers (ex. Nurse and Blight). Survivors should have perks that are strong in good hands on an individual level and not get only niche perks that work if you play in a 4-man SWF.
Og DH: Gave instant 4m of distance. ~5.6s chasetime increase.
Dramaturgy: Gives 0.8m of distance over 2s. Roughly 3s chasetime increase.
Much less powerful though I could see it maybe becoming a small problem.
Ok so lets get this straight. You think a guaranteed speed boost of 25% for 2 seconds leading up to a 1 in 4 chance of either a strong item, a scream that means nothing because you are already in chase, another 25% speed boost for 2 seconds and the last being the only real downside of exposed.
Perk is 100% A tier no contest. A good survivor would never pop the perk if they didn't KNOW they would make it to safety on the chance they got exposed.
It's no god validation dh but it's not to be underestimated at all.
All of the downsides can be mitigated with thought and skill. Think of all the high A/S tier killers and ask yourself how many can down you with a basic attack via their power.
Labeling being healthy is pretty hard is not a statement I thought I would ever hear. Perks, Med-kits and most solo survivors throwing to heal under hook would say otherwise.
I already did a quick breakdown of the effects earlier so I'm not going to do it again, but I disagree about it being A tier.
Considering you need to be healthy (and non-exhausted) and the best effect you can get is a weaker effect of a perk you can also use while injured, and you can't even get it twice in a row, I would say it's only A tier in fun. Like, depending on your luck it can be really good perk or pretty useless one, so in average it's going to be well, just good.
It genuinely feels like a lot of people are complaining about it (and calling it OP and comparing it to old DH) simply because "survivors like it so it must be OP!" or because they don't understand that it's a meme perk but it's still a survivor perk so of course it's going to be survivor sided, and it's weird to to think meme/fun perks should be bad.
I agree it's definitely not going to be a bad perk at all, but it'll never be as good (and definitely not as convenient) as SB so people will go back to it after the fun wears out. I'd say B tier probably. Can go up to A tier if you get an insane item + add-ons but can easily waste a perk slot if you get bad & useless effects.
Med-kits you say? They nerfed ground, my guy still believe they are strong enough lol.
Which perks? Self-care is only one allow you self-heal.
This perk wants you to be full health to use it. If killer hits you before you use it, you are done. You can't use this perk while injured. The only use will come start of chase. You may be surprise but you can use SB at start of chase and it does not ask you to be full health and gives you more distance.
Comparing this perk with old Dead Hard is just so funny, people have terrible memories or they did not play game when DH was super meta.
SB is stronger than Dramaturgy's activation speed boost + speed boost effect, 99% or not does not matter, you can also get SB while injured, and being healthy is not an easy prequisite in the current meta (even less when the perk could make you drop your med-kit)
"All the downsides can be mitigated with thought and skill" yes so ? A really good survivor won't have problems with the perk and that's normal. It's still a survivor perk, I'm not sure why people are acting like because it's fun it should be either be useless or literally a killer perk.
It's always same scenario my dude.
New chapter drops.
People checks survivor perks. Targets one of the perks.
OMG THIS IS SO OP, NERF IT, THIS CAN NOT COME TO LIVE SERVERS
If BHVR ignores them and not nerf, perk only seen first week and then everyone backs to meta perks again.
I will shock if one time, ONLY ONE TIME, they will not complain anything survivors are getting.
Truly, crazy how some killer mains think it's normal to want a survivor perk to be nerfed to the ground or basically be a killer perk simply because survivors enjoy it.
This is so far removed from reality.
So say you use it in a chase and your last use was exposed so you know you're not getting it again. You either get a Sprint Burst which you could have been running Sprint Burst, you scream which is useless, or you get an item which does nothing to help you escape the killer.
The best the perk can be is B or C tier as it stands. And even if it was "A tier" so ######### what? Are A tier perks no longer allowed to exist? Or just for the role you don't like?
Med-kits being nerfed to the ground- nope a 24 second self heal is still more efficient than grouping up with even a swf teamate, a common misconception lol. Not to mention add-ons potentially reducing the heal to 18 seconds or god forbid a syringe that I see every other game on either side. If you think med-kits are weak, I truly have no idea what to say in response to that. Ask pulsar or edgar if they think med-kits were "nerfed into the ground", I highly doubt they would agree with that statement.
Perks- Self-care + botany + desperate measures and CoH or we'll make it for teamplay.
Ok, so you think it's that hard to press the active ability button before being hit or being careful at all? SB is by far the best exhaustion perk but that doesn't mean it's not massively inefficient to 99 at times.
It has a place in being compared to old dh, it fits the same niche. That's not to say old god validation dh wasn't stronger as I already said but this new perk is not weak in any regard.
Honestly the only reason I won't be running this perk is that I won't be able to pair it with mft. So yeah, this perk won't be apart of the strongest survivor build by my estimation but it's top 3 I would say.
Perk is good, don't get me wrong (the downsides are negligible), but the difference is ultimately committal time. Dead Hard was activated when the killer had already spent x amount of time trying to finish a chase, but Dramaturgy happens much earlier allowing for a different level of commitment giving the killer agency in their macro play.
It's usually also much easier to get the first hit in, deactivating the perk, since typically the killer leads the chase at the beginning as they come in from their chosen angle, while the second hit you are following the survivor into pallet city.
Listen I get you are survivor sided but I never claimed to say it was op. I SAID IT WAS A TIER.
My purpose on this forum is to give my opinion on few things other than DC/Suicides and blight who I have a disgusting high knowledge about while being fairly neutral towards him. If I didn't like how good mft felt in my build, I would base my build around this new exhaustion perk and let me tell you I am not the biggest fan of rng.
People are just calling this perk not good when it is, it's really good. Just like people think mft isn't S tier when 3% ms is game changing.
Read my other comments before replying as well. That will tell you my opinion on the perks relation towards SB.
But hey go off. I'm sorry I can recognize a strong perk without calling it op or underpowered like the rest of you.
Goes to show you how often they truly play vs 4-man SWFs as well. Many perks are so niche already that they are only strong in 4-man SWFS (Power Struggle being one of them, and Deliverance a second one). If they played against them as often you'd see complains about perks other than WoO, Made for this, Distortion, exhaustion perks in general. All of which are more useful for a solo player than someone playing in a SWF.
Why you are bringing Pulsar or Edgar to this case? Am i talking with them? No. Have your own opinion, not their. And i have my own opinion as well. My opinion will not change if they agree or not.
And yes, medkits nerfed to ground. Now it's only 2 heal at max but for this, you have to use one of the irri add-ons.
So you will bring all of these perks means you have no chase or anti-tunnel perk. For just heal? CoH? Seriously? Dead perk?
It's not even close to old DH level. Old DH used for distance and you were immune to any hit. Old DH used when you are injured and it worked like 3rd health state.
This perk is not on this level. This perk can be compare with SB. Because both of them have similar effects. And this perk is not even outplays SB. SB is just much better.
So i have not see any problem with this perk. Can we allow survivors have some decent new perks please? Same goes for killers and killer perks as well.
What are you on about ? The haste effect is 2 seconds not 12. You can't use it with BT because you need to be healthy. The probability of getting a BNP is 0.0045 and you can't get it twice in a row, so it's a 0.0045 chance every 80 seconds assuming you're always healthy, the killer has no exhaustion add-on / perk and you spam the perk instead of using it when it's useful.
Also, BT is fine.
The ability for it to generate a free purple toolbox with brand new parts is acceptable in your mind? Seeing 3+ toolboxes with BNP makes gens already pop so fast it's a actually just silly. So really, lets just give survivors a perk that does something goofy but has a small chance to immediately win them the game. That sounds fine right?
Crazy how being exposed for twelve seconds is "something goofy" but 3+ survivors bringing the perk to have a 0.0045 chance every 80s of getting a BNP is a totally a realistic threat when they could just bring BNPs to begin with, and that immediately wins the game.
But of course a survivor perk that has a 1/4 chance of exposing you and is at best a weaker and conditional SB shouldn't have any chance of actually giving any benefits to survivors right?
Between people running MFT & the new perk I'm pretty sure you're going to see a pretty big increase in chase times solely based on the fact that people will be making it to connecting pallets & tiles they wouldn't normally make without being downed.
If you're using Dramaturgy exclusively for gaining that extra distance to a window or pallet it really doesn't matter if you get exposed because you'll most likely run it off anyway on the new loop.
All that's going to happen is you'll see an uptick in people playing Killers like Nurse, Wesker, Blight etc. Basically anyone who can counter those perks in chase.
At this point it doesn't really matter what they add the game its all over the place. Killers have no real direct meta setups anymore so they mostly camp, tunnel or proxy camp for kills. MMR is a total joke. Solo queue is riddled with DCs and early suicides. I guess the only group that is feeling good about the game is SWF who got some nice new perks to abuse the killer with.
@Lost_Boy MFT and Dramaturgy literally can't be played together. MFT requires you to be injured and non-exhausted, Dramaturgy requires you to be healthy and exhausts you.
A killer doesn't really dictate the first chase. A survivor running windows (which is a big % of players) that chooses their gen & position on gen will normally set themselves up pretty well for a first chase regardless of what direction the killer comes.
The big deal breaker to me is that Dramaturgy will not make you invulnerable as Dead Hard would. That alone makes the perk a million times more fair.
Also, people will need to make a choice between running Dramaturgy and Made For This because both perks will not work well together. Dramaturgy makes you exhausted, which in turn will disable Made For This since it doesn't work while Exhausted.
As for the item getting part of the perk, think of it this way. How often do you get game breaking items in chests while running Ace In The Hole? Are we gonna start nerfing chests too because of that now? Can people finally stop being pointlessly neurotic when it comes to this game?
Just RIP if your playing against Plague
We forgetting that Old DH also had I-Frames that gave you endurance? It wasn't just used for the distance but also to block a hit that would down you.
Could block slinger spears, Hatchets and all that.
I'm pretty sure you still die to hatchets with dramatyrgy
Smash hit is getting buffed so I wouldn't even bet on that
You have to use it at the start of a chase so killer can make a decision to leave or chase you has an actual animation before it's used
Rng chance of exposed it has a no i frames it's gonna be good but not dh lv good
Idk why people are acting like the expose really matters. Most killers aren't going to reach you in 12 seconds after 25% haste for 2 seconds.
Drama is hardly the worst exhaustion perk. It's really good at correcting bad movement at tiles similiar to old Dead Hard for distance to vaults and windows.
Dead Hard was the best exhaustion perk in the game and it was only a 1 second dash. So the duration of the exhaustion perk has no merits to its strength.
DH was the best because it was one second of invincibility, so Dramaturgy won't come close to it. I absolutely disagree about it being a bad perk or the worst exhaustion one, but it definitely won't be as good as SB or Lithe chase-wise (and it shouldn't be considering it has other effects).
SB can give you same effect, it can make you reach to loop from dead zone.
Lithe can make you leave chase and force killer to leave you because you got very good distance.
This perk is not different than both of them. And if killer hit you before you use it, you lost the perk. If killer chase you while you are injured, you can't use it.
Why you people are acting like this perk is old DH level lol? Old DH was busted but this perk is not even A-tier and i highly doubt we will see this perk is popular like other exhaustion perks.
Lol "its drawbacks" of having a 1/4 chance of making you exposed for 12s which will literally do nothing if you arent terrible at the game
Weaker SB...thats on demand, but yeah its just a meme totally no reasonable complaints allowed, not like the devs want feedback or anything
So you are asking survivor perk give value to killer just because it's meme perk. 🤣🤣 Ofcourse exposed effect will be short, so killer can't get value from it unless survivor makes mistake.
Alright, i hope devs make killer perk, whenever you hook survivor all gens will get 25% progress. Meme perk. It should give value to survivors!
It's an on demand burst of speed when you need it most. Lithe requires a vault and Sprint Burst requires exhaustion management.
It's very comparable to old dead hard, but it's far more balanced than old dead hard. People acting like it won't get run are fooling themselves.
Pretty sure feedback means people are allowed to argue different opinions but go off ig.
Also, 25% haste for 2 seconds when healthy and with a 1/4 chance of it lasting 4 seconds vs 150% for 3 seconds.
There's no world where this isn't a much weaker version of SB, even if you get lucky with the 1/4 (which you can't even get twice in a row). And unless you're silly enough to believe 25% for 2s and only if yo'ure healthy is as good as 150% for 3s because you don't have to 99% it, getting 25% for 4s is still much weaker and definitely not on demand because you have at best 1/3 chance of getting it.
But again, absolutely not surprised one bit about people (especially you) finding this perk OP, although you're of course very welcome to complain about every perk that comes out, it's not like I could stop you if I wanted to.
Scott mentioned it on a recent video.
But DH was essentially instant and gave you i-frames, making it perfect to quickly reach a safe vault/pallet
Dramaturgy can help you around longer loops, but it pales in comparison, since it isnt as effective on short loops, plus it can expose you.
And this perk requires to be healthy and good timing. And even if you use it perfectly, you still can get hit.
I just hope we get old DH for one day. So people can remember how terrible perk it was. Because now, even meme perks are comparing with it.
I agree about all of that, but considering Dramaturgy isn't only a chase perk and you can also get an item from it, I don't expect it to be as good as other exhaustion perks in chase. I really don't see it as a chase perk, so I don't mind it being worse than the others in that regard, kinda like Head On, its purpose isn't the same as the rest so it would be weird to compare them.
I also think it won't be used much once people get bored of it, but I don't think it means it's a bad perk. I don't use Head On at all but it does its job well and isn't bad by any means. Dramaturgy is the same in that sense, it'll do its purpose well, it's just that its purpose is basically fun and memes and therefore is unlikely to ever fit in the meta (which would actually be possible if the luck system was reworked and the perk was affected by it but that's an entirely different topic lol).
It won't be able to keep up with other exhaution perks when it comes to chases, but it's not its purpose so it's fine, and it doesn't make it worse than the others. I'm not sure I'm making any sense, but I'd say it'll do its job better than Smash Hit or even BL, even if its job is silly and much less useful.
Honestly I think Overcome isn't used much because it requires you to be healthy and not because it's too weak, with tunneling being very common rn (and the healing nerf) it's risky to bring it when it's possible you'll only get to use it once. As for BL, it can be really good on some maps but it depends on it so much that I wouldn't risk bringing it without a map offering tbh.
When did I ask for anything? Literally all I did was point out how the "drawback" is hardly a drawback at all. Also no, it's not because, it's a meme perk, it's because it's a perk that gives free distance, which either shouldn't exist or should have a downside
Feedback quite literally includes complaints about the perks...but yeah, it indeed is stronger than sb because you don't have to 99 it, you're not always gonna be able to 99 sb and ensure you get value out of it, but with this you can. There's a reason old dh's *distance* part was so strong, as in nothing to do with the i frames
That's how exhaustion perks works lol, they give you distance. It's not free. Perk slot used for it. And you also had requires as well. By your opinion, we need to nerf all exhaustion perks.
Do you know what? Anti-gen perks makes gens regression for free. Let's nerf them as well.
I'm just gonna have to disagree on that. The number of people who use SB is much higher than the number of people who know how to 99% efficiently, and it's not like you can hold Dramaturgy for long because if you get hit you lose it. We'll just have to see when it goes live i guess.