Build in ruin (basekit)
Since devs never talk about second objectives and I personally lost hope on that (cuz devs are just so focused on adding new DLCs noone needs atm or just simply can't because idk) I thought about adding ruin into basekit to counter genrush but with rules and requirements:
- Ruin can't be destroyed
- Ruin will deactivate after 3 hooks or/and 3 gens popping
- The effect of ruin is depended on killer tier and survivor rank (Nurse for example will have a weaker version of ruin than wraith, rank 1 survivors will have to deal with a stronger version of ruin than rank 15 survivors, maybe rank 16-20 has no ruin)
Thoughts?
Comments
I gotta disagree with you on that. I did notice some nice improvements for killers over the months where killers got some needed buffs.
Pallet vacuum comes to mind honestly, it was a huge change for looping.
ahh yes, I'll continue to disprove and you'll just call me dense.
Toodle pip old boy, maybe spend more time in game actually learning the game awhile I continue to 4K with unviable killers like the plague.
The rainbow of gitting gud? I’ll gladly stay on the other side.
Was that change after the Marth experiment? If so than those videos are more irrelevant than I thought. I wasn't even around when that existed, but that was a huge change for sure.
When you are done arguing with each other, you can just go back to the topic of the thread.
But isn't this discussion about increasing objective time? You know, Ruin as basekit? I do agree that certain killers aren't good enough to down survivors fast enough while also applying enough map pressure, such as Wraith who lacks in chase, or Clown who really lacks in map pressure. But that can't be fixed by extending game time, that can only be imroved by buffing those killers a bit, and improving map design.
Patch 2.0.0 Was the removal of Pallet Vacuum
Which was May 2018
From what I can tell,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEB9Rh6AtbI&list=PLoJokCjX7gozpIVDM1qjmXSC7M1SXSP3C
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeWJcSWe-_0&list=PLoJokCjX7goxDLKGgKtbSAz81yIpy9Vr4
Those two sets of experiments Meta & Perkless Were before the change.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6Nb66nPbMY&list=PLoJokCjX7goy1osh2j5jW2bepe1iZAxBU
this one was after pallet vacuum changes but also halfway through this experiment they're playing against green/brown ranks.
I would consider all of it completely irrelevant considering DS/Pallet/Instablind changes etc.
So what you're saying is, I 3Kd with an unviable killer at rank one without ruin?
Gotcha, definitely not needed, then, so absolutely shouldn't be basekit.
Well then, I thought that was more or less the discussion. Maybe not Ruin, but something that helps lengthen matches.
I have got to ask though, what do you think is his point? Because as far as I can tell it's that the weaker killers don't have the tools to down survivors fast enough and also apply enough map pressure to be viable against optimal survivors, even if you play optimal. In that case I wouldn't say you disproved his point in any way. It's something that can't really be proved nor disproved.
Personally, if killers are just good enough to cope even with optimal survivors, having at least a fair chance for a 2k or 3k, but also having the chance of getting a 1k and 0k, if you've got the high skills for that killer, than that's optimal balancing. Of course it needs to be considered how a killer does at lower ranks as well then.
Maps need reworks, all the coldwind farm maps could do with being a lot smaller, there is no reason for huge ass fields in the middle of every map.
Crotus Prenn & Rancid Abattoir can be setup to have an absolutely disgusting loop in it, and they need to go.
I have never ran ruin, ever (unless roulette or asked too) and I've been rank 1 every season for two years straight (except for this season because I'm so bored of killer I've been survivor maining it)
you can't really play surv or killer with ruin, because most of the time it's already destroyed before the game even starts xD
Adding those perks is pretty broken, while ruin literally only slows down the game, which is ending way too fast anyway. Not saying survs shouldn't get anything but aren't they like planning to make kindred baseline anyway? Not very fair is it? And ruin is one perk, what gives the already OP survs the right to get two perks?
Wait is that your opinion on what changes maps need? Or is that your answer to my question what you think his point is? I'm a little confused.
I think his point has little basis, if any at all.
Some killers you're good with, some you're bad with, sometimes you're not good with any of them.
Thaznar literally said earlier he want's to "roleplay" as Myers
"it's the quality of the gameplay and matches. I'd love to play as immersed Myers to give survivors a scare once or twice and roleplay a little bit but I can't. That is the problem and issue most killers have. It's not about getting kills but survivors who do not even have to try to survive in a horror game."
he wants to basically mess about in a match and still have enough time to get all the kills, he wants to have his cake and eat it, too.
You win some, you lose some.
Peanits said somewhere recently that the weakest killer on the weakest killer maps has a 43% kill rate, that sounds pretty low but it only goes up from there, that is the lowest kill percentage they have. Separately, the average for surviving is 43% across rank one of all killers, the game is in a good place imo, some map and major building changes need to be addressed, as well as some funky hit boxes even on good pings and we're golden imo.
Well maybe he meant it differently. I don't know anymore. Obviously I agree that you can't win matches against good survivors if you are just messing around, otherwise the game balance would be quite bad. But I had the feeling it's just about weaker killers needing some help to be viable against optimal survivors.
Personally, I wouldn't base balancing too much on the survival statistics, just because survivors that dc or kill themselves on the hook can often run a possible 2, 3 or 4 man escape into a 0 man escape. Killers can dc as well, but they mostly only dc because they probably would have lost anyways. Not in all cases of course. Survivors do that to, but I've also seen many that dc or killer themselves on the hook after their first down, at which point the match could have still gone either way.
But I agree, all the game probably needs are map reworks, which we are getting anyways. I do think that the low tier killers, at least Legion, Leatherface, Doctor, Clown, Wraith and Trapper could use some small buffs in addition, but nothing more. At least as of now.
I don't think you get that I'm kidding anyway if killers are getting something survivors should too
you realize that survivors are getting kindred in baseline while killers aren't getting anything right? Would you then support killers also getting a perk as baseline for free? And no...not a useless perk.
@NextKillerSpongebob
Survivors are getting kindred as baseline?
No because that would buff all killers including nurse and spirit which are far too op already
I'm going to give my most unbias opinion about Ruin, and how killers are forced to use Ruin:
I feel like for the most part, killers are fine without Ruin, but when you start facing really high ranked survivors or a depip squad, that's when you're forced to use Ruin (assuming you're an M1 killer or sometimes, an M2 killer). However, since that's only in the 1% of all games, I don't think it would be correct to say Ruin is forced on killers because the other 99% of games, you can still win without Ruin.
Also, Senzu, killers need to 4K because the rank system wants a 4K rather than a 2K once you're at high ranks. I would be fine with a 2K if it was pip everytime, but apparently at high ranks, it isn't. :)
I feel like you should have to get a 3k to pip as a 2k would be a draw, what the game imo is balanced around. Emblem system needs some work though I'll agree the game needs to be drawn out for some reason or pips nowadays.
You shouldn't be pipping every game.
You guys have no idea, you should only be pipping when you're facing people you play exceptionally well against, if you're at rank one and the survivors are at rank one, of course you're going to black pip most of the time because the requirements are high because theres no more ranking to beat, pipping at rank one is so useless and unnecessary i don't see the use in complaining about it.
I'm not talking about rank one, I said "High ranks" and it is a problem.
I shouldn't be able to pip when I 0K, and shouldn't be able to safety when I get a 4K (no camping, tunneling, nor slugging). If you get a 4K, which is double the developer's standards for their killers, then you should get rewarded, period.
Also, yes, I know I shouldn't be pipping every game because there are times where I do terribly, I'll admit it, but it shouldn't require a 4K to have a decent chance of pipping. It's just not right.
so that has nothing to do with the viability of killers, it's to do with the whack ranking system not rewarding properly, we dont need to make killers stronger because they aren't pipping with 4Ks
I know, we don't need to buff killers to compensate for a poor ranking system. However, I think that's why killers are getting upset about not getting 4Ks because it's basically required to have a decent chance to pip.
Now, back to my statement, do you agree with my most unbiased statement about Ruin? :)
They decided against kindred being basekit.
No, because it's subjective and completely based on the killer.
I don't run ruin and the matches I have lost I don't think I would have benefited with ruin, if you want to run ruin and you think it helps go ahead, I have no issues but people pretending it's going to somehow stop and elite squad of depippers doing gens are wrong.
Notice how all these killers mains complain about SWF and how powerful it is and how totems never last but now also come here saying Ruin is the only way to somehow stop elite depip squads from winning? Yea, you get the picture.
Skipped the last 3 pages of comments or so, but i thonk people are kinda overreacting to OP's maybe badly worded proposal.
Wouldnt "Making ruin basekit" be synonymous to overhauling the skillcheck mechanic?
"All" Ruin does is making failing skillchecks more punishing and hitting them less rewarding.
Skillcheck chance, sizes, fail penalty and success bonus are viable variables to slightly change the speedbonus of people breezing through great skillchecks.
Ruin would obviously be slightly tweaked based on default values.
If basic skillchecks were different, survivors would adapt like they say they always do.
I dont really see the problem with this proposal other than the wording.
As an OG Freddy main who didnt even have ruin unlocked before hitting rank 1 playing ONLY OG Freddy... Git good. This whole idea of any killer being "unviable" is a joke. Some might be able to bulldoze teams without having to bother with any mindgames or trickery, but that doesnt mean those are the ONLY killers that can do well. Ppl have a tendency of clumping every "M1 killer" into 1 group and claiming if you know how to handle 1, the rest are pretty much identicle, but anyone who really puts in time and "mains" a killer will start to pick up subtle quirks about a specific killer and use any little trick they can to get an upperhand. Thats why we have ppl maining killers like Pig at rank 1 and doing VERY well.
On a different note... Finally spent some time using new Freddy after mourning the loss of OG Freddy. The dude is a BEAST. Constantly getting back to back double pips in red ranks with most of my games giving out 31k+ BPs before BBQ kicks in. Some of these I didnt even bother equipping addons.
They also did that like a year and a half ago. The game has changed pretty drastically since then.
What? When?
A while back, but it was brought up in a recent Q&A. The Freddy rework one, if I'm not mistaken. The short version is that while the goal was to bring solo players closer to SWF, it just ended up giving SWF more info as well. The gap wasn't any shorter, it just shifted.
It's true, swf would have a benefit from that aswell. But by a scale from 1-10, swf would have a benefit of around 1 or 2, while solo a benefit of 7+.
Yes, the gap would have shifted a bit, but solos would have been buffed much more and therefore the gap would have been closed by a good chunk aswell.
I still think the devs should try out kindred basekit in a PTB and let the community have their experience with that instead of just deciding without testing it in large numbers.
However, @Peanits that really isn't the case. SWF already can tell the group the killer is camping and can tell them who is doing what and where the killer is while on the hook. Solos cannot say they are being camped other than wiggling their arms on first hook. Even if you gave kindred at BaseKit the only one getting real info they didn't already have is Solos. It is an Information Gap having Communications at all is where I stated in a few posts that they are given dozens of perks for free, a totem counter between the group, omnipresent knowledge, and for some instances if the group has a perk like OBO they effectively all have the perk. You can't coordinate an adrenaline play or something without having prior knowledge that they have the perk ie pre-game chat. However, SWF can time it down to the second they want it to pop.
Suggestion for Kindred:
Give the Aura of all survivors as base kit. Buff kindred range to like 16/24/32 or 12/16/20 meters. Which makes the Anti-Camp knowledge of the perk better. In addition to the previous buff add a new mechanic that whilst being camped in the 8 and 16 meter range and having Kindred equipped will not only affect the Chaser Emblem but all the emblems. According to the current punishment for Chaser. This makes Kindred a Camper's nightmare. However, with this change you should add another rule that this does not apply in the 16m range when the End Game Collapse has proc'd. At that point it is foolish not to defend a hook and you should not be punished for it.
Effectively Swf has for Free:
Kindred, Bond, Empathy (+ Coordinated Double Heals), Small Game (+ Totem Counter), Deja Vu, Premonition (Killer is going to you!), and Buckle Up
Effectively Swf has shared:
OoO, Alert, Spine Chill, and Dark Sense
Extra Knowledge Swf has:
When a killer is near a survivor and tinker activates for example all the swf knows the killer has tinker at that moment. This is a shared information that is obtained while playing. Solos won't effectively know a killer has spirit fury unless they are watching the chase or is in it themselves and is hit by it. When one person finds a totem the whole team knows where it is at, etc. etc.
I never said add it too base kit, it's a bad idea, but Ruin is absolutly mandatory on most killers who don't have gen pressure. How else are you suppose too keep people off gens as someone like Clown? or Ghostface? or Leatherface? Ruin is mandatory on these killers because they have virtually no map pressure too keep people off gens or slow them down.