Build in ruin (basekit)
Since devs never talk about second objectives and I personally lost hope on that (cuz devs are just so focused on adding new DLCs noone needs atm or just simply can't because idk) I thought about adding ruin into basekit to counter genrush but with rules and requirements:
- Ruin can't be destroyed
- Ruin will deactivate after 3 hooks or/and 3 gens popping
- The effect of ruin is depended on killer tier and survivor rank (Nurse for example will have a weaker version of ruin than wraith, rank 1 survivors will have to deal with a stronger version of ruin than rank 15 survivors, maybe rank 16-20 has no ruin)
Thoughts?
Comments
So basically anything that might extend gen time is a bad idea. gotcha. Lol.
You're obviously not new to the game, so you either only play survivor, or you're knowingly lying because you like fast gens despite the balance issues.
Unless every killer and survivors with the perks they come with get theirs as a base kit then hell to NA!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Only way I would ever agree to this, is if they bring back OG brand new part lol
Who holds m1 for 80s? 30s. 50s max. With 2,800 hours of play time you already knew that anyway. Rank 15, and 20 newbies hold m1 for 80s. And You're not just holding m1 watching the pistons move. You're actively looking for a killer that can come from any direction.
Red gear+repair speed buffed tool box=less than 50s repair for one survivor. Not including perks. So it's very possible. The good survivors don't work on gens alone. Again only rank 15, and 20 newbies do that.
That's not what all people do. Sure, there are some who lose a game and then blame it on the killer, but many people just believe that there are killers that have almost 0 chance of winning against an optimal team, no matter how optimal you play as killer. They are not just all going to the forums crying about killers being to weak because they got their ass handed in one game.
The games you don't win are probably those you verse against optimal survivors, and those you win may not be against optimal survivors, depending on which killer you play. At least that's what many would believe. I personally agree that there are certain killers that have to little chance of getting a 2k against an optimal team.
Of course believing you should get a 4k with killers when you play optimally, no matter how optimal survivors play, is pretty stupid of course.
I agree that there is no need for a second objective though. Definitely not. We are getting map reworks, which in general will only buff the weaker killers, which is great, and Billy, which could become a problem. The weak killers might need some small individual buffs, but that's it.
Many people sadly also seem to forget the fact that there is a lot of rng that can affect the outcome of a match.
Well then it doesn't matter what devs do.
If you win against survivors they're just bad, if you lose against them they're optimal, it couldn't possibly be that the killer played poorly or played well.
Just admit that sometimes you play poorly, I posted a video of a killer almost everyone agrees with is weak getting 32 4Ks over a few days while using speed limiter, it's entirely the person in control and the players you face that decides whether you win or not, it isn't always "survivors are op".
No that's not really my point. Of course it's often because a killer didn't play optimally and got outplayed, but not everyone who wants killers buffed are here on the forums because they lost and can't accept that they made mistakes. They believe that certain killers barely have a chance against optimal survivors, no matter what you do, based on their observation of the game's balancing. You know, map design and the loops of a map, the killers power, survivor and killer perks, and so on. That's all I'm trying to say.
You just seem to assume that everyone who wants killers buffed are sore losers. If you believe killers are good enough that's fine, but people are allowed to believe killers are underpowered as well. Of course many do just because they don't want to blame their lacking skill for losing, but that's their problem. The point of this forum though is anyways to gather feedback from as many players as possible, and try to listen to the majority while of course also trying to judge the game's balance themselves.
From all my many hours with this game, I personally would agree that there are certain killers that just are a bit too weak to have a fair chance against an optimal survivor team, to get a 2k.
Clown for example. His chase potential is quite good, though it does depend on the addons he is using and what loop a survivor he is chasing is at. But his map pressure is absolutely awful, since he has no way to close any distance and in addition has to waste a lot of time reloading his bottles. And I personally just believe he has almost no chance at winning against an optimal team that is optimally organized, since he can't defend gens enough while also downing survivors fast enough to combat the speed at which survivors can repair gens. He just takes very long to get to gens he needs to get to, especially on very big maps that hurt him in particular. Of course not reloading can help a bit to reach gens a bit faster, but then he has no chase potential if he finds a survivor.
However I'm not saying this because I've lost games with Clown. In fact I can admit that I probably barely ever had a game where I played him quite optimally. But I can also make statements based on my observations regarding this game's balance.
So, 32 4Ks with speed limiter?
I could get dnxudnsurjwnw 4Ks as perkless Wraith with the add-on that makes your TR emit when cloaked.
We need to go by what we do know, not be something that happens once in a blue moon. :)
Great, another comment from you that makes literally 0 sense.
I used it as an example as people like to bring up irrelevant Marth88 experiments to prove their point.
It's like you ignore an entire conversation and pick out something you think you have something smart to reply with.
yes you do need ruin, on every killer. It's pretty much manditory at red ranks because otherwise gens are done in 5 mins. Almost all streamers who play DBD use ruin, because it's needed too even have a chance of winning. Please add a second objective so red ranks isn't just loosing or playing Nurse.
You're just flat out wrong, though.
I've never had an issue, honestly.
I'm sorry that some of you can't play at rank one, i know it must hurt to put 2700 hours into dbd and still rely on ruin, or want ruin to be base. Devs have shown time and time again survival rate is below 50% which from the matches I play I usually end up 3 or 4king which is pretty high which might be the reason I don't whine as much on the forums about buffs as much as the rest of people idk.
One person who doesn't use ruin is not the majority. Plus you are playing Billy, which is a killer who doesn't need Ruin too win because of his ability. Good luck doing this with Legion, Plague, or Clown, because you will loose badly.
None of the matches I posted were billy?
Pig, Huntress, Nurse & Freddy
Pig, Legion, Ghostface.
idk man. game seems easy without ruin
Ouch you basically insulted me with your first and third paragraph. Not cool. 👎
You could've just sent me the second paragraph ONLY, and I would've understood what you was talking about because I obviously didn't know what your point was in the last comment.
Now, to continue our conversation, yes I understand now where you're coming from, we shouldn't use rare, outrageous experiments to balance the game around. However, I can agree from both sides that generators do go a little too fast, and I can happily say we need a second objective. :)
I saw Freddy's ability and it looked like a chainsaw with the perk icons, my bad.
But as someone said, I can 4k by tunneling, camping, and other scummy ways too play, but no one wants too do those things. Or I can if I get really bad survivors, But all optimal survivors will rush gens while you're chasing as someone who can't put pressure down.
Edit: Plus, you are not posting other people's screenshots, only yourself, and again, most red rank killers need ruin because gens are done too fast, even tru3 has too and he's one of the best around.
Survival rate with the weakest killer on the weakest map is 57%, and it obviously only goes up from there for the most part, if you want killer nerfs then sure, bring on a mandatory secondary objective and see where it gets us.
-insert useless text formatting-
Look at the points in my screenshots almost every player has 12K+ does it really look I 4Kd by tunneling everyone?
I don't tunnel and I don't camp, and if I'm consistently 4King with camping you should have no issues 4King by playing with chases etc.?
Edit: calling someone the best when they run ruin every game when there's literally killers who have never ran ruin, omegalul.
See all the damage I do without ruin? Imagine if I cucked the survivors and started running it. It's a boring perk, it certainly isn't needed.
I know, if we get secondary objectives, we would need to nerf some things on the killer's side to compensate; I agree because it would be overkill on survivors.
After we balance some things, the game will have a more healthy atmosphere to it because both sides can have fun. Survivors don't have to press M1 24/7, and killers will have a more time overall to sacrifice survivors for a 2K. :)
If you think a secondary objective wouldn't somehow still be hold M1 I don't know what to tell you.
Every game involves holding buttons and pressing different buttons at key moments, so we can't get rid of M1 completely. However, I can safely agree that moving around and being more interactive is far better than standing in one place for 80 seconds (rinse repeat).
Even if the second objective spilts up the 80 seconds into 20 seconds elsewhere, that's still better than sitting in the same spot for 80 seconds.
Yes exactly. It goes both ways though. Survivor concerns get that treatment as well, sadly. Especially when it comes to camping. All the git gud comments that totally miss the point of survivors complaining about camping.
I think most people hope for a second objective that involves exploring the map for it. Would probably be more fun than sitting on a generator for 80 seconds.
I'm not sure if you really need Ruin. Tru3ta1ent didn't use Ruin for some time and was able to 3k or 4k most matches I believe, not sure though. But it does force you to adapt with your playstyle. You definitely can't go for any long chases.
It's hard to tell though, gens can go very fast, that's for sure, and the weaker killers can really suffer from that. Especially on big maps, but that's more of an map design issue, which maybe will get adressed with the upcoming map reworks.
yes, waste more time searching for a secondary objective, just to then hold 80 seconds on a gen, sounds game changing!
because this doesn't add anything to the game play at all, this suggestion changes nothing.
some people already search for totems, and then go hold M1 for 80 seconds. You want them to now walk somewhere, hold M1, and then go to the gens and hold M1.
It adds nothing to the game that totems don't do for some people already, making something like totems mandatory is basically just extra totems and more time for the killers, which btw like I said, if you're good you'll basically 4K every time which is just unfun for the other side.
Killers say survivor is so easy and they don't play it because it's boring, but they also want them to walk around the map and hold M1 even more like???
Who says it HAS too involve holding M1 for X seconds? It could be very different because the gameplay could be anything. It could be where you have too find an item, pick it up, and then carry it too a gen too get it started. It could be like Lanturns from t he Lunar event and would reset when you get hooked, but they couldn't be destroyed. There is so much that could be done, but something needs too be done.
I will also add onto that:
Rank/killer dependant buffs/nerfs arent a great idea in general
You absolutely do not. I can say that as a fact as someone who does not use ruin and does use off-meta killers in red ranks.
If you feel like it's worth a perk slot, hey, the more power to you, but there's nothing stopping you from using the perk. Adding it to the base kit is highly unnecessary.
I do agree for the most part ruin is not needed. However, I do think the chance of the killer is too map RNG dependent. I have seen several loop setups that the killer just has to leave due to them being structure loop setups. Which should be fixed internally. (High Hopes since Badham Rework)
I also think the type of structures should also have a 'Loop money' type deal. Say we have 5 structure loop tiles they should be properly varied where no two strong structure loops are next to each other. While a survivor who can properly deal with these structures can still obtain an advantage. Ie: Double Jungle Gyms/L wall T walls with Shack combos should not exist.
“Almost all streamers who play DBD use ruin, because it's needed too even have a chance of winning.”
I guess this is why people use self-care @BunnyTheHutt? I’m not currently in red ranks but I was before reset, before that reset and before that reset, ruin isn’t needed, it helps but it is very far from ‘needed’.
Yes, however, the current mechanic is completely unfun to do from the survivor perspective. You can't expect people to have fun holding M1 for most of the game. It should have various tasks other than gens. Totems have no actual value and is a hold M1 master play as well. The survivor side needs an overhaul to make it more enjoyable, that gives them more defenses in a direct chase other than pallets, and causes a general increase of time.
I won't judge from the end screen alone. There are so many things that the killer could have done wrong and the end screen shows none of that.
Although, I don't throw streamers as to be the all knowing all wise as some people do. There was a recent post by Tru3Talent
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsvZm6LlAZwAlthough, it looks click-bait esk the loop in question is no doubt strong. You had two strong structures and two strong loops alternating in a line. Luckily RNG of pallets caused one to not spawn and it was only 2 strong structures and a strong loop combo.
However, due to tile rotation the loop structure created is almost unbeatable without the survivor making a severe foolish mistake. Which yes can happen, however, in many cases not likely.
Yes, it was a non-meta killer and yes both sides made a mistake which caused the capitalization on the killer's side be a miss. However, the amount of 'Loop money' as you guys call it to a competent survivor could waste all 5 gens there on almost any killer.
I do agree the killer could have played more optimally in that situation. However, to a decent survivor say against a billy. Could still waste 3 gens minimum on that alone before getting hit. Which there were also smaller loops nearby as well for safety nets as shown in the match as well.
best would be to make it so u have to find parts to repair generators,or a power designator tower to direct the generators power to the gates...
I wouldn't deny that some layouts can be a little too strong. In this case, the killer made a lot of mistakes and could have dealt with that setup much faster. This is something that's getting better over time (we're much more careful about where maze tiles can spawn in newer maps). Though this is a little off topic- ruin or not, if you can't catch the survivors, ruin isn't going to make a difference.
I do agree that it could be dealt with better than that particular killer. However, looking at the structures and orientation from the survivor and killer perspective. Killer shack can eat up to like 8 times if the killer makes a mistake and in this case 4-6 times around and use that left over pallet off to the side as the safety net and the loop is still there. Even in the events that they went down basement I believe was not in Killer Shack which means that side is just a safe zone.
The problem with these loops is they are a combination of good structures and structures do not decay. Even with pallets gone you can easily come back and waste more time disregarding perks like Lithe. Which I will agree newer maps have dealt with this quite well except for a few RNG occasions.
However, as I also agree Ruin is not base kit and would make survivors side even more miserable. Sorry for going a bit off topic.
Big IQ Thaznar.
"You need ruin"
Is the sentence I set to disprove, one screenshot at red ranks PROVES you do not NEED ruin. I think you need to understand what NEED means.
And yes, you should be able to lose in red ranks, are you trying to say if you run run you shouldn't lose at all or something?
I proved you dont NEED it, you proved... Nothing? Good job, bud.
What the hell? They could maybe then reduce the gen time if there would be such a second objective. It's not about being game changing, some people just want the game to last a bit longer. And I was just explaining what other people would probably like to see as a second objective, which reuquires exploring and not holding more M1, because you said there could be no other objective that doesn't involve holding M1 even more.
You really can't deal with people who have different opinions, can you? Cause you seem to get offensive to anyone who doesn't agree with you. Not that that's a rarity on these forums anyways. Many people here seem quite immature when it comes to that.
I mean, this is entirely a map design problem. Map design in general isn't that great in the game, but that's why we are getting reworks to them, which I am looking forward to. Which is also why I don't think we need any additional objective to increase the length of a match right now, I think map reworks are the answer. Some maps could be a bit smaller so that killers who can't cover large distances can apply map pressure a bit better.
The ol' killer favourite.
"you aren't good, the survivors were just bad".
I proved you dont need ruin at rank 1.
Survivors who aren't trying to win always bring in purple flashlights and insta heals, right? I didn't read the rest of the post because it always makes me laugh. I've always been called a survivor main on these forums but somehow I seem to top all the 10/10 killers on this forum at their preferred side.
I proved you DONT NEED ruin. Fact.
and if out of the what, 7 games I posted they're all potato survivors it just proves that a tiny majority of players are the ones you guys are complaining about.
I'm happy to be whatever the forum wants to label me as, I'm not the terrible player that needs my hand held and wants ruin to be basekit, the fact that you're arguing with me about NEEDING ruin is ridiculous.
By the forums standards, barr one (the nurse match) I played "weak" "not viable" killers without ruin and still 4Kd most matches.
I'm sorry but if I can play weak, unviable killers without a "needed" perk and still come up on top it PROVES YOU DONT NEED RUIN.
Maybe if you're bad at the game you "need" ruin. But as you said, you can post 4K Rank 1 matches with 0 perks, yet further proof that ruin is not NEEDED.
If there was a nail, you just hit it on the head. Most games become a race against the clock, and in efforts to keep up gen pressure involves breaking chases which hurts emblems. Even with 2 kills its possible to not pip or even de-pip In fast games depending on how shafted you get on emblems. Is this every game, by no means. But when i try and play builds on killers i truely enjoy it very often falls through. So i gotta run builds i find rather lame just to try and rank up. Which then encourages the typical meta builds which encourages more typical meta builds.
Yes, Marths incredibly out dated experiment proves nothing.
Where pipping was based on the amount of hooks you had obtained in a match, so they would intentionally abandon hooked players to force a "loss". You are indeed correct that this means NOTHING.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bng-JRBdq08&list=PLoJokCjX7gozpIVDM1qjmXSC7M1SXSP3C&index=3
Using this game as a simple example, they intentionally let their friend die so the killer couldn't get any more hooks, this happens numerous times. They're playing like NO OTHER team EVER would.
But sure, lets balance around them.
When they say you need Ruin as a killer, they mean that you need Ruin as a killer to have a chance to win against optimal survivors, even when playing optimal as killer yourself. Something I'm not sure about, though I would say that's not really the case, the only problem being the bad map design of some maps.
However, that's why showing a bunch of videos or screenshots where you win as a killer doesn't prove that you don't need Ruin to win against optimal survivors. It just proves you can win at red ranks without Ruin. Just like Marth's videos don't prove that killers have no chance against optimal survivors. Even more so since there have been many balance changes since then.
I don't understand your point?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v45CtOvOFMg&list=PLoJokCjX7goy1osh2j5jW2bepe1iZAxBU&index=50
Here's video 50, where him and his team, who have 1000's of hours in the game play against a rank 9 killer, very scientific and accurate for rank one gameplay.
It's almost as if all his "experiments" have huge inconsistencies.
The entire perkless experiment was done with the idea in mind that they would immediately leave the game and ignore the first person hooked to do gens, something I can't remember the last time I saw.
His latest experiment on the emblem system has him playing against mid ranks and showing how unfair it is when you put players with 1000s of hours against randoms in match making.
Oh look, here we go with 1000 hour players against a rank 14.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLU74JsaCzU&list=PLoJokCjX7goy1osh2j5jW2bepe1iZAxBU&index=46
THIS JUST PROVES HOW UNBALANCED THE GAME IS OMG
100 matches of Marth's experiment don't necessarily prove anything either though. You don't know how many killers were actually playing optimally in those matches, and how rng affected the matches as well. Taking a series of matches doesn't really prove much at all. Also, when were those videos made? I'm pretty sure there have been many balancing changes since then, especially ones that buffed killers. Healing and pallet density nerfs come to mind right away.
Of course killers are going against the clock, if they weren't there would be no point to the game.
good job, Thaznar & Marth. You've proved that killers have a set amount of time to killer survivors, we should definitely change the game where killers don't have to care and have as much time as they want to 4K.
I've figured it out guys, I'm going to play 100 games against rank 20 survivors and show how OP killer is,
Healing Nerf = Killers asked for it
Pallets Nerf = Killers asked for it
DS Nerf = Killers asked for it
Pallet Vacuum removed = Killers asked for it.
I guess killers have no idea what they're talking about if none of this helped you, I'd argue that if none of this helped you you're probably just not very good at the game.