Disable Pain Res if a Survivor is Dead at 4/5 Gens.
The Problem:
Frankly, the game is designed as a 4v1. That is why tunneling is so effective; it reduces the game to a 3v1 scenario in which the odds are heavily stacked to the killer (obviously). If a player is dead at 5 gens, the game is essentially a loss for survivors. It's unproductive to give survivors insane speed, endurance, no scratchmarks, etc., when survivors can already bring perks such as DS, OTR, DH, and more. What needs to be evaluated is the 3v1 situation, especially at 4 and 5 gens, without punishing the killer player for gameplay to the level of disrupting or limiting their player agency.
The Long-Term Solution:
While a blanket gen repair speed buff for remaining survivors in a trial, if the right conditions are met, is ultimately the correct solution to tunneling, this may be too abrasive to initially implement. [The condition of a survivor dying at 3, 4, or 5 gens is met, similar to the bonuses in 2v8.] The "hyper-turbo-tunneling" playstyle is mitigated when the 3v1 scenario is slightly more evened out. To highlight this, many survivors will not bother to work on gens if there is already a player dead at 4 or 5 gens, seeing it as pointless. Yet, once the knowledge of "evened-out" gen repair speeds is implemented in a match, it may encourage survivors to continue to play even with a killed teammate.
The Easier Solution:
Collectively, we should begin balancing by looking at what actually informs player gameplay and alters strengths and playstyles: Perks. Many perks for survivors are outright disabled once endgame begins, such as DS, OTR, and others. This is a good thing. While all the gens being completed is an indication of the killer losing, when is that moment for survivor? Typically, it is most commonly "decided" for the survivors when there is a player dead with multiple gens remaining. It is poor game balance to allow large gen slowdown perks to work with a player dead at 4 or 5 gens. If a player is tunneling aggressively at 5 gens and has a kill by 4 gens remaining, it is currently possible to continue to have 3 pain res hooks to regress gens.
Similar to the state of certain survivor perks that disable in endgame, there should be a limit or caveat on gen regression perks that prevent them from further use if the condition of a survivor dying at 4 or 5 gens is met. Pain res would disable outright. If a player is playing killer in a match and has killed someone with 5 gens remaining, are pain res and other slowdown perks necessary to win? It's unlikely.
It is possible that this change could encourage players to spread hooks more appropriately and shy away from tunneling playstyles.
Comments
I would do this if in the future the devs would want to nerf Pain Res.
It's much better to make it so tunneling is off the table than just lowering the percentage.
Otherwise, this is not that pressing of a problem.
Looking at things by assigning "fault" isn't the intention here.
Someone is always going to have their agency removed in a tunneling situation, the killer if anti-tunneling is too aggressive, the tunneled survivor who can't play out the match, or the remaining survivors who don't get to interact with the killer nearly at all until the game is a guaranteed loss. It is not a "misplay" for four solo survivors to be matched against a multi-slowdown nurse who is determined to get a kill as early as possible in the match. The expectation that four solo players (the most common matchup of most survivor lobbies) should be able to coordinate on the same level as SWFs against strong killers is false. This change limits the overkill aspect and would make the match worth attempting to play out if perks that are inherently designed to be used in a 4v1, not a 3v1, are disabled.
Let's be clear about this: these perks are designed for the 4v1 specifically; that is the reason their numbers are what they are, and they work the way they do. When you enter a situation at 5 gens of someone dying, for whatever reason, it makes a difficult comeback an impossible feat.
Would you agree then that by your logic, DS, OTR, should remain active during endgame, as it's the killer's fault for not doing their objective effectively? If you're not getting kills, don't expect the survivors to get punished; you're getting punished for not doing the objective.
Totally agree! There should be changes for tunneling base game that supersede perk changes. I only bring this up since this has not been working with the approach the developers have taken as of late.
Have you ever heard of the term "Snowballing" when it comes to video games like League and other competitive games. There comes a point where advantages go out of hand and there is very little to counter the situation.
Gen regression/blocking is hugely problematic in a 3v1.
why should a bunch of survivor perks get disabled in endgame?
You recently got offended when talking to Pulsar about people making assumptions and generalizations about different regions/nationalities yet you did not hesitate to diminish the whole North Americn continent just to insult me.
But fun fact, these were mostly EU matches.
The point being, there are 4 times more survivors than killers, thus they're 4 times more likely to be bad, and that is exactly how the killrates are playing out now (killer appears stronger, when in reality most survivor players are quite literally just bad at the game). At least before this update, the game was heavily Survivor sided, regardless of solo queue or not, pretty much all killers should be getting outted, and if you're not outing, someone misplayed somewhere. Tunneling in reality is very hard to do already, but also very necessary for most killers, because gens fly by in no time at all. Nerfing pain resonance to essentially be a wasted perk slot once someone dies (same as old ruin) is not warranted, since that IS the survivor'd fault. Even with this new update, no one should be dying before 2 gens at least, unless you're all that bad at keeping chase, which seems to be the case. (even with every filler being a 50/50, no one should be dying so soon on most maps)
I can't even fathom the down votes on OP. This just seems so brain dead logical imo
Because these ideas are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. The killer's role is to kill survivors. Making it so that the killer gets punished by losing access to perks by doing their job is a poor way to balance the game.
The opposite would be disabling sprint burst after the survivor team gets a gen done. It would make the perk less annoying to deal with as killer, but it would be a terrible solution to it.
There's a big problem with the DBD community wanting to micro manage how killers play the game. Adding all these barriers to try to force killers to play 1 specfic way will only hurt the game in the long term, because people will not stay to play as a bot.
Fair, but try and see things from my perspective. You run a solo q match and run into a Blight (or honestly any killer) running pain res and DMS and they tunnel at 5 gens the second the match starts. This is literally un-winnable for solo q (unless the team is all 5k+ hour survivors); the match could be replayed 1000 times and I honestly don't think the solo survivors would win once.
A trapper running Pain Res and DMS would not successfully tunnel out a survivor before a gen even completes. A lot of the lower tier killers would not be able to do this unless the survivors were just bad.
The specfic issue you have is a result of BHVR not putting a tigher balance on the power discrepancy between killers. We can see this with the fumble of the pallet density updates. Post update was a pain for killers like Trapper, because they have not ability to deal with pallets like a Blight. Now pallets are a joke for blight, but Trapper is fine.
We can't just keep balancing the game around the highest level of power when the solution should be nerfing the highest level of powers on both side, because it is quite possible for survivors to get gens done in 3 minutes. DBD should be a slower paced game than it currently is.
idk, you can't just say: well this isn't the case for the killers that are absolute buns and call it a counter argument. Those killers need buffs period. And if they got those buffs to get them up to like C tier at least, then they too would crap all over any solo q squad in the scenario I outlined in my original response.
It was an assumption that clearly was “if it is”, without claiming “it is like this more likely”. Without “I place a bet” and male a statement about players who are not even present in the discussion at the moment.
3 four minutes long matches in one day with zero gen progression are still too crazy for me. Can’t remember this even in my worst games for last months. At least two gens done if play was terrible and 4-5 if it was good.
Nothing really special about killer play style when your main killers are own teammates.
Even this people who gave me 4k did one gen. I had full regress. When match lasted 4 minutes. If your team can’t manage do at least one gen, this is just a shame that’s not related to killer. So being tunneled at 5 gens is not a hint on killer being low skill or playing bad. Without fanaticism and shifting responsibility for your own game onto someone else
The 2v8 mechanic is horrible and exploitable and just leads to more problems. Organized survivor teams will actually 99 multiple gens so they can pop them in quick succession instead of taking the penalty. Organized killer teams will tunnel out survivors so they only get one penalty (you don't get the penalty for tunnels)
Perks are part of the game, its not an "advantage" that is giving to you by the kind developers. Its your build. Same as items and perks for survivor, or addons for killer, or even the killer you pick.
At the end of the day, your suggestions are bandaid fixes. As long as it is POSSIBLE for someone to be removed from the game early, then it will always be a problem. Punishing the killer is not the solution because then it can be weaponized by good players who know how to do so, and for bad players, they will just keep getting tunneled anyway.
The proper solution is much simpler. Make it impossible to actually remove a survivor from the match early and balance the game around that.
The better solution is a total rework of the game.
Imagine something that was more lore based than what we have now. A system where, instead of killing survivors, the killer has to fill up a bar, that represents the survivor's "hope" that the entity feeds off of. The killer's goal is to fill up this bar by doing actions. Downing survivors, hooking them, kicking gens, etc. The survivor's goal is to escape before the killer can do this. If the killer fills up the hope bar, then the survivors lose, and the entity kills 3 of the survivors, and leaves 1 of them alive as a "reward" for the killer. This puts the killer and that survivor in a little 1v1 zone, where the killer has to kill them before a hatch opens up that the survivor can escape from and get away. (think like, the haloween event, and have a hatch that starts closed and after say, 60 seconds, the hatch opens and the survivor can escape, probably in this zone you'd disable killer powers and all perks and such to just make it a pure 1v1)
I didn't say a single gen never got finished the whole match. The matches went on without me. But I wipe whole teams out at 5gens—not just one person—regularly enough. These are all pretty recent:
But it seems like your logic is that if I'm the survivor getting tunneled, the killer is a better player, but if I'm the killer doing well, there must be some external factor, like bad players on a server. Not much more I can say if that's how you feel.
In theory yes, but I myself never saw that happen in 2v8. I think it’s very rare. But you do have a point that it could be exploited in 1v4 and probably more easily since it’s much more likely to have a coordinated team in 1v4 than in 2v8.
Its not about the rarity of a situation. Its the fact that it IS exploitable. If you make a mechanic to bandaid things that ultimate can be exploitable then its a bad fix.
And a survivors role is to survive, don’t see you talking about DS or OTR in endgame.
ngl dawg, if you got someone dead at 4/5 gens you got bigger fish to fry
Nerfing pain res wont cut it and its stupid that perk was reworked to function as one of best perks that forced killer to spread hooks instead tunnel, reason why is used as number one regression perk is simple and they are two, first is mobility issue with pop or other perks you must go and locate most progressed gens or have good mobility but pain res damages that most progressed gen (if its not blocked) from anywhere on the map which is more helpfull to more killers especialy the ones that have no mobility instead perks like pop. Second reason why pain res is so used is because it has great synergy with other good perks like grim embrace(another great perk that kinda forced killer to spread hooks instead) or dead man switch that has been nerfed but its still good perk and in combination with pain res (that does only with regression from its first hit not counting if no one is on the gen like 18-22 seconds when someone is on the gen and the blocks it with dead mans which stops regression for moment but in total you slow the gen like for almost minute if we will count that someone will jump on it moment the block from dead mans is gone which is huge help).
I know its long but I hope many will read it before downvoting it to oblivion but in reality I kinda farm downvotes than upvotes so Idc much about it.
Yes, stomping team on 5 gens is never about killer skill or game balance. It's about how this game failed in making wins and proper play meaningful for both sides. Compared to team - killer “played better”. But it doesn't define his actual skill overall.
That's why this game need better matchmaking and tutorials. Survivors generally suffer more if even one member playing worse then others. Based on my experience when I ruined match for my teammates as well. You simply can’t make killer weaker just to give such people more chances, because it will ruin balance AND won’t fix root problem. There are nothing about killer and the way how they play.
There are no “tunneling being so easy” or “I’m such a strong killer, look how I killed them on 5 gens” when you play against players who understand situation, and when RNG working properly. Yes, tunneling is easy if survivors allowing to do so or they got Nurse on Midwich. As well as map pressure. As well as slug. As well as every way to play killer you can imagine. As well as every kind of killer you can imagine, their tier doesn't matter. Because killer is reactive role and difficulty curve of this role strongly depends on their opponents. While as survivor you are more facing “PvE” with efficiency requirement.
Your skill as killer can be defined only when you play against players with meta and actual understanding of gameplay. Not “only meta”, or “only understanding”. And do we like it or not, because devs ultimately failed in giving proper meaning and goals to winning, majority of players embracing farming simulator in matches. Playing against them can’t be a measure of skill, or balance, when the main issue players are’t actually playing the game. My killrate doesn mean I am a strong killer player. Yours as well. It will have meaning only after fixing MMR and wincons. When every player will see an actual motivation to progress in this game, then there are meaning to discuss what kind of strategies is balanced or not, or can we get rid of this for better sake.
Being unable to do a single gen when killer hardly focus on one member is survivor shame in any case. Such players better losing their MMR greatly in reworked system, to stop encouraging such attitude. And they need to see what they losing and why. Nothing difficult in doing single gen when killer care about hook and one surv only. Especially on Badham with zero regression. Doesn't matter how many gens they did after. They wasted you, while you being tunneled was their most valuable resource to win. Because devs can’t explain what resource management is.
Casual players will feel better when BHVR will be able to make a difference between being casual player who wants to play according mechanics loop, and casual player who farms because there are no meaning to play properly. First kind of players deserves better conditions, second one… if they are playing out of system, they simply shouldn't expect to win. And separate them from meta players or making encounters rare, ofc. And I’ll be glad to return to DBD when they’ll make it. Until then I’m on my rest.
I don’t care about strategies. Gen rush, bully squad, whatever. Casual or tryhard. Barely cared. For me bs RNG and overall useless progression were the main reason of this game bringing dissatisfaction. Because there are no fun when player who play to win encounters player who barely value or understand what winning is.
Advantages are not things that are randomly bestowed upon you by the developers. They are conscious choices made by the players more often before the match even starts in the form of builds, addons, items, and perks. A team running 4 BNPs and commodious toolboxes inherently has an advantage over gen progression at the beginning of a match. Yes, there are base game advantages too, such as map RNG, pallet density, and window spawn locations; however, they are more often than not less impactful than the choices made by players deciding which perks, items, and addons to bring.
Please explain to me how a perkless killer player has the same advantage in a match as a stacked survivor team.
If perks, addons, and any customization to you are not advantages, what is an advantage in DBD to you? Is it the map generation?
Truthfully, I don't understand how you can say "punishing the killer player is not the solution…" and "[The solution is to] make it impossible to actually remove a survivor from the match early and balance the game around that." You call the proposed suggestion a band-aid fix, but it is realistic.
Let's be clear: The idea is not to punish killer players for tunneling or remove their agency in any way. The developers would rather try implementing basekit invincibility for recently unhooked survivors, which is, I'm sure you would agree, a completely incorrect approach. From my perspective, any proposed changes should still allow killer players to play with full freedom rather than micromanaging their gameplay with debuffs. That is why this change could be important. A blight on live right now would have the same possibility to tunnel a player out as a future patch with this change included. All this change does is make it less viable to utilize strong perks in an already stacked scenario.
I like your mindset regarding a complete rework of the game to fix some of these issues. I think your hope suggestion is very creative. However, the developers just had months to work on important base game adjustments with the "operation health" update(s), and the best they could come up with was missing the point and ended up with reverted features anyway. As much as anyone, myself included, would love a full rework of the game, this is just impossible to be done correctly by the dev team.
Lastly, the "weaponization" argument is just false. The activation condition of this change is a player death with [X] amount of gens remaining. There is no situation in which survivors have multiple gens at 99% waiting for you to tunnel one person out, and then complete them immediately. If multiple survivors already have multiple gens at 99% completion, you have likely lost that match regardless. It is more efficient to just complete the gens rather than wait for a teammate to die in order to, presumably, continue doing however many gens are left.
Exactly! You agree that in that situation, the game is essentially over, so why then have pain res still apply?
Claiming the problem doesn't exist does not just suddenly validate your claim. I can claim that gen rushing does not exist, but that does not take into account everyone's individual experience.
Do not mistake sprint burst for having the same impact on the match as pain res or any other gen slowdown. Those two things are not nearly equivalent. Secondly, there is already a host of anti-exhaustion perks and addons that can counter sprint burst and similar perks. Also, one gen being completed is not the same as if a player is dead with lots of gens remaining. The idea of this change is not to punish a killer for playing well, but to instead make a match more fair for everyone. Something can be unfair and in your favor, so in the name of fairness, I think this is a very reasonable change. Your success in killing the remaining three survivors at 5 gens should not be dependent on pain res, and if it is, you're likely a part of the issue.
so that i can get my additional 300 bloodpoints
I'll give you 1500 if we can just vote to surrender.
So if pain res had no gen slowdown effect but still gave you 300 additional bp perk hook would you still run it
no
I don't understand why people on these forums are insisting on this narrative that "survivors are being punished for doing their objective because DS and OTR deactivates on the endgame". Both of these are anti-tunnel perks and tunneling is something that occurs during the early and mid game. When the gates are powered you can just leave, there is no tunneling as it can happens before the exit gates are powered. Strong perks need to have very specific activation conditions, otherwise they will be busted. Imagine if forced penance worked on normal hits and not only on protection hits?
This post of your needs to be a topic itself. So many truths. MMR is bad designed so people get bad matches and think the issue is in game balance itself.
How can tunneling not happen in endgame? Atleast from two of the official definitions by BHVR tunneling is going after a unhooked person or hooking someone twice in a row, why do survivors lose advantanges when they’re winning?
Also is pain res not deserving of the condition of only working when everyone is alive? Because by your logic it’s not a strong perk since it’s less limited than others.
I’ll go in the opposite direction and say bring back the original Pain Res.
No, I think the current design is much healthier.
Imo, Pain Res is in an ideal place right now. Is it strong? Sure. But it's not overly broken and unless they try to bring back the "rewards for not tunneling" system, there is no reason to change Pain Res.
it wasnt broken, it still had to be used on a scourge hook which was its "self nerf". Of course if they did bring it back to OG, they'd have to remove hook respawns
The info it gave did still make it too strong even considering it's a scourge hook, to be fair.
Still, a hypothetical hybrid that's 15% on every hook but without the info and it disables when someone dies would probably be the healthiest version of the perk we've had.