cant wait for the anti-tunnel
I am so excited for it.
tried 1v4 for the first time in a while as survivor….and each and every single match…one dude was tunneled immediately. the moment of unhook they would stop whatever they were doing and head back to hook. had an unknown drop chase with me just to warp back. a spirit phase away just to get back. a ghost face camp just far enough away to mark anyone with the unhook and tunnel. Another was an Artist that was just…the worst…and tunnled so aggressively hard for the mori. you can mori without tunneling btw. I had one blight who did not tunnel at all and hooked each of us one time, just like the beta. bro stomped on us. he was built different.
"Survivors when killers do their job". nah man, I've been a killer main since 2017 and the job is to serve the entity and the entity is basically the devs and the devs have spoken "tunneling aint cool man". you can win in a video game while also displaying human decency. everyone deserves to have fun.
I do play a lot of killer though and some of it has me concerned. I think there should be something to prevent it from ruining Sadako's whole power, condemning is already difficult enough. I think they should code in exceptions to the whole thing as a workaround. similar to how nurses m1 doesn't really count as an m1. or how the new speed boost in the anti-tunnel update effects killers differently. the six hook thing is annoying…but i can just kinda smack em if they keep running into me. In general it hasnt effected my gameplay very much at all as killer.
Other than that i am excited to see it in the game and am excited to play survivor for the first time in a very long time. I just hope there isn't a lot of bugs that come with it lol.
Comments
Killer players complain about predropping, prerunning and genrushing…
And again, survivor gaslighting. Complains about gamebalance, like item xy is op, is legit. (I remember when insta blinds hit me through my ear) Complaining about how someone is allowed to play in a pvp game is unhealthy for the game community. And in an asymetrical game, the non power role/team should not be able to bully the power role. That in itself is a serious indicator for a bad gamebalance and should be adressed. And in a game that is balanced around a team that is not on voice chat, SWF on voice chat are a problem, because than, the killer and solo survivor are to weak. If there is voice chat, the game needs to be balanced for it.
What survivor want here is a rulebook for killer. A Code of conduct. The amount of extras for unhooked survivors is already through the roof. Unsafe saves (stupid playa) shouldn't be rewarded.
Everyone being able to get up from dying by themself is against the spirit of the team needing each other against the powerrole.
Predropping and prerunning is an issue today? What did I miss since 2021? I rather hated survivors always going for the stun -because it became to easy and riskless- and I hated them disrespecting me and sitting on their gen right until I can swing at them.
And genrush IS a gamebalance issue.
Gen rushing in modern dbd would be if a whole team brought BNPs and wire spools in Commodious toolboxes along with gen speed perks. I don't think I've ever once seen this happen. Almost everyone brings exhaustion and second chance.
And I'm a killer that follows the rule book. If you play both sides regularly, you understand how much it sucks to be slugged or tunneled by low-skill killers who don't want to engage with full gameplay, they just want cheap and easy wins. There's nothing survivors can do to similarly incapacitate a killer.
Gen rush is not just that. If you lose several gens before you even get a single hook, your in trouble. We have so many 2nd chance perks and loop/chase extension perks -plus still insane pallet density-, that it's not about the toolboxes. It's about the time it takes to get a down and hook, compared to gens being done in general. No BNPs needed.
I do not play both sides equally. I am a killer main and I don't lie about it (like so many survivor mains do). I play solo and we all know, that solo survivor is miserable compared to full SWF on coms. When I play survivor, I play immersive. I suck in chases and don't want to get chased. I sneak, repair, safe, heal mates.
If a survivor is doing a gen with no perks or toolboxes and it's finished in the default 90s that's not gen rushing. That's you wasting your time on one good looper instead of spreading pressure. I shoot for two to three hooks before the first gen pops. That's a good trajectory.
"I'm a killer main and I'm honest unlike those lying survivors." A totally unbiased take.
There's a rulebook for both sides. As @Firellius said, a lot of it has gotten removed the last 3 years but you still have things Killers complain about in equal measure. Think of any reason why Killers would camp/slug/tunnel and there you go.
I don't believe you. What is the "rulebook" for survivor? I don't think that is a real thing.
Are you serious right now?
Using flashlights.
Body blocking.
Sticking to gens.
Pre-Running.
Sabotaging a hook.
Using Head-on.
Using Blast Mine.
Using Flashbang.
Using Power Struggle.
Using Dead Hard.
Using Distortion.
Hiding.
Trying to attract attention.
Stunning the killer.
Having any second chance perk.
Protecting teammates.
Not protecting teammates.
Unhooking too fast.
Unhooking too slow.
There are very few things that survivors can do, especially when it comes to direct interactions with the killer, that are not constantly cited as toxic/unacceptable behavior that justifies retribution. The difference is that killers are given the agency to enact their retribution. Survivors can only appeal to BHVR to change the rules, like any other unpleasant/unhealthy meta in any online game, or killers' better nature, which is treated as 'attempting to police them.' "Please don't do this," vs "If you do this, I will punish and BM you" are both rules for the other side, but only one has agency.
Yeup, the only reason it isn't considered a "rulebook" is because it hasn't been meme'd by the community.
OK.
Hit the nail on the head.
Using endurance offensively is a "rule" i see often too. Apparently perks like DS or OTR should only be used to protect yourself and not your team mates. Simultaneously, you'll be told the survivor experience is bad because people play for themselves instead of as a team. And when your team mate is being tunnelled you're supposed to stick to gens, but if they go down too quickly it's also your fault for not taking aggro. It can get confusing.
anti tunnel should’ve came to the game with ZERO changes.
This is very true. This is why I ask people what the survivor equivalent of tunneling and slugging to remove killer agency is and I never get a satisfactory answer. It'll be something lame, like gen rushing.
I also, to some extent, follow the killer rulebook for survivors. I don't use flashlights. I rarely sabo. I don't bodyblock offensively or obnoxiously try to take chase unless it's a desperate measure to save someone else, and I know the potential consequences I'm bringing down on myself if I do.
And in an asymetrical game, the non power role/team should not be able to bully the power role.So basically, this is how you are telling survivors they should play the game. A rulebook.
And in a game that is balanced around a team that is not on voice chat, SWF on voice chat are a problem, because than, the killer and solo survivor are to weak. If there is voice chat, the game needs to be balanced for it.If there is tunneling, the game needs to be balanced around it. Say, by giving the survivors a gen boost unless the killer achieves a certain number of hooks before an elimination.
Everyone being able to get up from dying by themself is against the spirit of the team needing each other against the powerrole.The killer being able to focus on a single target where everyone else just sits on generators is against the spirit of being survivors.
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You're just saying 'these examples I like, so they don't count'. Except you're trying to turn it into some massive us vs them issue when its much more 'is X good or bad for the game' type discussions.
For awhile, some people tried to get the phrase 'gen tunneling' going. Like "killers will stop tunneling survivors when survivors stop tunneling gens'.
Fortunately that argument died off in large part when people pointed out that hyper focusing on a gen is a horrible strategy for survivors.
You don't get it. You refuse the core concept of an asymetrical pvp game. If you don't like it anyway, why do you play it to beginn with?
The powerrole needs to be powerful, because he goes up against 4. Which should make it impossible for the team to bully him. That's not a code of conduct, it is the core of the gamedesign.
Tunneling or not is not 100% in control of the killer. Should I have to play around it on purpose? What if I stumble over the same survivor all the time? Why do I have to do the micromanagement of whom did I hunt last? Possibly with same character with the same clothing? Why should that micromanagement pushed on me? Being killer is already stressful enough. And it would be easy to get punished for something that happend by accident.
The "spirit of survivors" is not by nature altruistic. Every survivor tries to escape for themselves. Altruism is an option -call it a strategy, if you think it's more beneficial to you, if you help-, not mandatory. See? You has a human player, can deciede to do it, or not. The same choice should be given to another human player, that just so happens to play the killer.
I can try to rephrase it for you multiple times, but I do not WANT to understand it anyway. Most likely, you already have, but talk back anyway, to punch you will through.
You don't get it. You refuse the core concept of an asymetrical pvp game.What I do get is you've changed your argument.
It's no longer about that only survivors have a rulebook, because that's pretty clearly been shown to be incorrect with multiple examples, its about what the game design ought to be.
You're just calling your arguments 'game design' and others 'code of conduct'.
And if you want to discuss game design, go ahead, but its a lot more nuanced of a discussion than arguing one side of the player base has a set of expectations that the other side does not.
Tunneling or not is not 100% in control of the killer. Should I have to play around it on purpose?You still can tunnel under the proposed system. It actually gets rid of the arguments for a code of conduct. If you think it is worth the consequences, go ahead and tunnel.
Why should that micromanagement pushed on me?Because that's how game design works. The devs put a series of pros and cons on various actions.
The "spirit of survivors" is not by nature altruistic.Not even what I was discussing.
If you wish to discuss things like spirit then we need to get into how much one killer effectively ignoring three survivors to pursue one target destroys the spirit of the game. There's no tension, no excitement, with a tunnel, just apathy.
I can try to rephrase it for you multiple times, but I do not WANT to understand it anyway. Most likely, you already have, but talk back anyway, to punch you will through.No, I get it. You have a vision of what you want the game to be. Other people have a different vision. As I said above, you could get into the nuances, the merits and downsides of differing ideas, but its a lot easier to just blast the other side as doing something that your side would never do.
It's easier, its just not true.
So what you're saying is that you don't play competively, and thus don't really have any stake in balancing changes that would be abuseable by players who ARE playing competitively, thus violating the integrity of the game.
There is no way you're going to make people who are inclined to play optimally take the game less seriously. That's just a general archetype of player in any type of game, and nothing you can do as a developer will make that go away. Certain types of people love to optimise and win as much as possible.
All I'm saying is that there's a reason that they are including the option to disable these changes in Custom Games, where tournament formats are always played, as they know this will not fly well at the highest levels of play.
They really need to strike a balance where casual players are offered some protection from tunnelling (because it is lame if a team that isn't equipped to deal with it faces someone tunnelling at 5 gens), while not providing unfair scenarios against Survivor teams playing to win, because like it or not tunnelling is a necessity against good teams, and has counterplay with any minor level of coordination.
The measures in their PTB forms provided the more savvy Survivors practical invincibility at times, and that's a scenario that the developers have been trying to avoid since the DS nerf back in the day.
BHVR: We need to reduce the number of ways that killers can win, for balancing purposes. So you can no longer do X.
Killers: But now I can't win if I do X!
BHVR: OH ***** sorry sorry sorry, you're right, let me put that back.
If you think the proposed changes were bad, that's fine. But it's hilarious that the whiners got their way with the dumbest possible argument…
re-read my other comments
Base gen regression boost in 6.1, the base regression boost that came with the 3 gen change, the efficiency nerf when multiple survivors are on a gen, the increased time to gens over the years, the regression boost that was coming with the new anti-tunnel and slugging system, the nerf to tool boxes and brand new parts over the years. Also the introduction of regression as a whole since at launch that wasn't a thing.
And yet genrushing is still a thing, where is my basekit anti-genrush. Also now that you vaguely defended genrushing I am going to call you a bad survivor for playing efficiently
Behavior kinda cooked their own game. Every second chance perks how fast gens can be repaired, how weaker killers are everything is because tunneling exists. No killer cen be powerful because the player can use a tactic that ruins the match for some one. Survivors have a bunch of second chance perks to help combat a tactic a killer might or might not use. You can't balance a game around two play styles that are so vastly different in effectiveness. They literally need to rework half the game to remove tunneling buff a bunch of killers and more.