DaSonic
DaSonic
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@bazarama said:
I never go to the exit gates when they are opened no matter how much vault or locker spamming a survivor does.
Not happening.
So it's good to see I'm not missing out on t-bags on first pallet drop just about every match.
Running windows and dropping the first pallet you get to does not make you a good player. It certainly isn't worthy of a t-bag.
That behaviour is guaranteed to make me do as much as possible to ensure you don't escape even if the other 3 survivors do get out.
T-bags are expected but on first pallet it's pretty lame especially when you're running windows so not even good map knowledge is required.
Ghostface can t-bag back which can lead to some t-bag pallet fun which can be entertaining.
But enough of t-bags on the first pallet which I'm going to break and it's gained you nothing especially if it's a god pallet that's been removed first chase.
T-Bagging early is done to agitate you, so you chase them more… You literally fell into their trap and did what they want lol
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@CodeDB said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4009568#Comment_4009568
Wait, I apologize, I must have missed something. How many totems does a survivor have to break to be able to progress the game? Does it actually power the gates or does it just create a secret special hatch for that one person?
It spawns a Killer Killer that chases and hooks the Killer
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4009462#Comment_4009462
But it is using the perk offensively.
It was a normal way survivors used the perk, but it’s still using the perk offensively. And it’s still punishing a killer for slugging, even though the killer hasn’t even slugged the survivor for 5 seconds.
We are just gonna have to agree to disagree here because this won't go anywhere. We are talking about the exact same thing here just using different words to describe it, probably showing our bias along the way. I call it "Getting value" and you call it "Killer getting punished" but at the end of the day it's just someone using their perks for the intended effect.
The only thing that irks me is the "using it offensively" because like… they are just using it. The perk has always just been "Crawl faster oh and recover too while you are at it.", of course that will open up niche scenarios where you can reach a pallet before the Killer can pick you up. I don't get how that is "offensive". That's like I use my Sprint Burst or whatever offensively because I run away faster from the Killer for 3 seconds. Like no you just use it how it's supposed to.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4009458#Comment_4009458
Tenacity is sometimes used offensively, to immediately crawl under an undropped pallet.
As in, if the survivor didn’t have Tenacity, then the killer could have immediately picked them up before the survivor got under the undropped pallet.
But Tenacity’s increased crawling speed allowed the survivor to get under an undropped pallet before the killer could pick them up.
That is not using the perk "offensively" that is using the perk "normally". Again like… the survivor used a perk slot that could have also been DS or whatever to get that niche bonus, you need to always put it in perspective. Let them have that value.
If a Killer uses Forever Entwined for example, and picks up the survivor just fast enough for the other survivor to miss the pallet save, did the Killer use that perk offensively? No. He just used it normally. I used that perk in particular because I'd argue it has similar if not slightly more value than Tenacity per game (If you can even reasonably compare survivor and killer perks in terms of value). And again, instead of that the Killer could have used DMS or whatever if he doesn't already, so like… Let them have that value.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4009448#Comment_4009448
If you ever complain that a killer does something unfair, can we say “good for them”?
If a killer tunnels you out of the game, then good for them!
Wait which perk is called "Tunneling" again? Come on. You are trying to compare perks with playstyles, stop Straw-manning. If a killer uses pop on the gen with 99 progress you know what? Good for them.
Also in what world is Tenacity an "unfair" perk lol. Pick the survivor up and it did literally nothing. Check the surrounding area for survivors waiting to save, and the slugged survivor is probably still under that same pallet. In order to get value from it, the Killer has to act to allow for value to happen, not the survivor. You are way overblowing the effect of tenacity, you make it sound like a must have meta perk when in reality you mostly use it in some memey power struggle flip flop build most of the time.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4009394#Comment_4009394
Defensive perks should be 100% defensive. If a survivor is slugged for 0.5 seconds, that isn’t problematic slugging, and anti-slugging perks shouldn’t be punishing that.
Yeah and in 0.5 seconds a slugged survivor won't get very far with tenacity, neither will he in 10 seconds really, definitely not far enough to lose track of him or his blood trail. If they reach a pallet due to tenacity, like… good for them? They literally used a perk slot to get that benefit.
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@Alionis said:
I don't agree with people calling this auto-aim. To me, that implies it corrects faulty aim, which isn't what happens. The initial shot is all down to the player and it's only the four mini-glands spawning after that lands on an object that home in on nearby survivors. Even that I wouldn't consider auto-aim, since the player has zero influence on those mini-glands. There's no aim to correct.
If it worked like Unknown's power and the mini-glands were meant to bounce off at specific angles determined by how the initial shot landed, then maybe, but that's not how Krasue's power works, nor what happens.
Sorry for the quick rant, but it really irks me when people call this auto-aim.
This is just a weird take imo.
It is called auto-aim, BECAUSE it will just bounce towards the nearest survivor, no matter what angle you shot the projectile at. I understand that BHVR didn't want an angle of incidence equals angle of reflection type deal because the geometry and the hitboxes on alot of the objects are straight up bad, and it would be very difficult to ever hit the projectile without getting lucky most of the time.
However, you could still do it, especially if you just add a nice spread to it. Imagine you shoot at a wall, and then it bounces back but in a spread pattern similar to maybe Vecna's flight of the damned where the projectile shoot out at set angles, in which you can both cover a good area with each spread, but also give the survivor a decent shot of dodging it if they react fast enough and run in between the projectiles or just dodge them outright. That way, it would allow for far more gameplay than just shooting it at a wall and letting the game shoot the projectiles towards the survivor.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/457803/revert-the-tenacity-changes
Tenacity should get the increased crawling speed added back, but delayed by 10 seconds, so that it's actually anti-slugging, and not "let's weaponize the perk to immediately crawl under an undropped pallet" perk.
I swear every single form of counterplay a survivor can have is a "weapon" to be "weaponized". 😭
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008173#Comment_4008173
It's not that I was wrong or even if I was determined to be right. I've originally came to this discussion thinking it was the spit ball itself being talked about. Clearly, I was wrong about that. When I went and saw the video I was flabbergasted this is even worthy enough to be complained about. Even prior to watching I gave a counter example that I personally experienced in game and in a real match and got down voted for it.
People want to complain about the dumbest things and wonder why the Dev's don't listen.
With an ability that will pretty much guarantee your demise shortly after given how busted head form is, I would have hoped there would be some skill involved in hitting it yeah… Not just shoot it close to them and have the spread do it's thing by itself.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008245#Comment_4008245
Killer needs mechanical skill AND strategic skill to succeed, for the entire duration of the match. They don't have the luxury of being able- nay, encouraged- to just take a break from moving around the map for 90 seconds while they plan out their next move.
And no, the existence of camping or tunneling does not mean that Killer macro doesn't exist. I assure you that even if they could chase as well as comp players, Killers who just mindlessly tunnel would never last in comp DbD.
Have you ever looked at a comp game? Tunneling and slugging is pretty much all it is…
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007752#Comment_4007752
https://youtu.be/dNPJH40tCHs?si=RcSuZixqqeJQOt-q
Theres definitely auto aim with the splat as long as a survivor is within afew meters of where the projectile hits.
Watch them never post in this thread again now that they can't hide from the evidence anymore haha
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@BigKingWoof said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005127#Comment_4005127
Did I ever say that OtR made you invincible either? Because I certainly didn't. Your argument was for anti-tunneling, not prolonging the chase. You never said anything about prolonging the chase until now. Along with saying "You can't add certain killers into the mix" is moving the goal post, and I'm not going to waste my time any further.
I sincerely hope you have a good day, and please take care.You know what sure, by your definition DS also isn't Anti-Tunneling then. Have a good day.
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@BigKingWoof said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005115#Comment_4005115
You say that as if…that's all there is to it? Do you think that if you take the endurance hit that the killer just…stops chasing you? That can happen sure, but I guarantee you that the killer is going to keep chasing you, and you'll be dead within seconds, especially if it's a killer with range or mobility.
How exactly is that going to help with tunneling?
The scenario you put forth is that the killer is already proxy camping, then chases you off the hook, you take the hit, and then you think you're not getting tunneled anymore?Mate, like... Seriously?
Did I forget the part where I must have said that Off The Record makes you invincible? No, because I never said that.
The point of the endurance was specifically to prolong the chase and give the survivor a second chance via an being able to tank an additional hit, incase the killer wanted to tunnel, which will prolong the chase and give the survivors more time.
Arguing that high mobility killers will still down you quickly has nothing to do with the argument, because by that time OTR already did it's job with the endurance. That's a high mobility killer issue not an OTR issue.
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@BigKingWoof said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005105#Comment_4005105
Okay, so in that case, how was the old OtR going to help you? You take the endurance hit (which probably would have been from basekit Borrowed Time anyway), and then what? Get tunneled out anyway. In this case, you should have your teammate take the hit, or if you're in a sfw, ask them to have Borrowed Time on them if you're that concerned.
And you're right, I can't garutnee that the new anti-tunneling systems will help with the new OtR, or even come at all. In that case, then we can pick up our pitch forks and ask for a revert."You take the endurance hit"
This right here, you said it yourself. You take the endurance hit, which MIGHT be within the first 10 seconds yeah, but it won't always be, which is where you will get that juicy value. That's what the 80 second endurance did, you know?
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@BigKingWoof said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005074#Comment_4005074
I'm assuming that the delayed notification/unhooking status mechanic is going to be coming along with the upcoming anti-tunneling system, so this possibly won't be a huge issue. You have to remember those aren't fully scrapped, and will be coming to possibly make the perk stronger.
In which case you can still just stay close-ish to the hook and tunnel anyway. Besides, don't assume things like this when it's not even guaranteed to be coming, given BHVR's track record. What counts is now, and now OTR is pretty much pointless without the endurance, which was 95% of the reason why people took it.
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@BigKingWoof said:
I think the new OtR is still pretty good. 80 seconds of no aura reading, scratch marks, nor grunts of pain (Even after you're healed) is pretty handy. Sure, endurance is a strong (if not THE strongest) anti-tunnel mechanic, but this new OtR is way more versatile. Pair it with Light-Footed, you're practically a ghost. The old OtR created this situation where you either had to wait 80 seconds doing nothing, or completely waste it by getting on a gen too soon; It was a Do-or-Die perk that wasn't very interactive. Now, you can actually go do stuff all the while still having all of the perks active!
Yes, the timing of the nerf is unfortunate. But the anti-tunneling mechanics are still coming (at least, I hope they are…). So I understand them on pushing out this change when it was already good to go.All nice in theory until you realize it is all completely pointless if the killer just comes back to the hook when the survivor gets unhooked, and that same survivor just going down 10 seconds later.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004629#Comment_4004629
Huge strawman argument.
Survivors that were weaponizing OTR, weren't literally doing nothing for 80 seconds. If a killer is in a chase when the OTR survivor is unhooked, then the OTR survivor was potentially getting healed, and then would immediately run towards the killer to try to interrupt the chase.
You know what you can do in that scenario? Hit the survivor. Cancel their perk and hey at that point, chase them since they brought it upon themselves. Pretending like they don't exist because you are scared to hit into endurance is just a bad play.
You unironically would rather have that person do close to a full gen than to run after you in the hope of blocking you? Be real.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004601#Comment_4004601
Survivors were absolutely weaponizing the endurance effect of Off the Record, by aggressively bodyblocking against killers that were trying to chase someone else. Endurance effects are just too exploitable, and should be minimized.
And seriously, I don't care at all if OTR survivors can't repairing or initiate heals. Because if their goal is to weaponize the perk, they don't need to do either of those things.
Ah yes "weaponizing" a perk where you need to be actively useless for 80 seconds and don't progress the game, crazy good weapon there.
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OTR is actually just useless now. If the Killer tunnels you losing scratch marks won't do anything, they will just wait 10 seconds and back on the hook you go. It's hilarious how out of touch this is.
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@Royval said:
legit just boring and trash maps for 2 hours on survivor toba, lery, preschool. Haven’t played Dead Dawg in a few days.
Yeah, I have been feeling the same lately… even with the exact same maps you mentioned. Map rotation is just another of the 3454353543 things out of whack right now.
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@Wolf65 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001543#Comment_4001543
Wait a minute...what?? That is insane. Killer goes for the unhooker, downs him and hooks him and starts chasing the unhooked and you call that TUNNELING?? He ignored the unhooked, chased and hooked rhe unhooker so fast, that your trails are still visible?? And you call that "tunneling"? That's entitlement galore. So the killer is not allowed to go for the unhooked and not for the unhooker? So what is the killer supposed to do?
That's just not what he said though, is it? He was talking about a hook trade. Way to misrepresent the statement, holy… Have some self-reflection.
"If someone goes down performing an unhook."
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@ArcT said:
Are you serious right now?
Using flashlights.
Body blocking.
Sticking to gens.
Pre-Running.
Sabotaging a hook.
Using Head-on.
Using Blast Mine.
Using Flashbang.
Using Power Struggle.
Using Dead Hard.
Using Distortion.
Hiding.
Trying to attract attention.
Stunning the killer.
Having any second chance perk.
Protecting teammates.
Not protecting teammates.
Unhooking too fast.
Unhooking too slow.There are very few things that survivors can do, especially when it comes to direct interactions with the killer, that are not constantly cited as toxic/unacceptable behavior that justifies retribution. The difference is that killers are given the agency to enact their retribution. Survivors can only appeal to BHVR to change the rules, like any other unpleasant/unhealthy meta in any online game, or killers' better nature, which is treated as 'attempting to police them.' "Please don't do this," vs "If you do this, I will punish and BM you" are both rules for the other side, but only one has agency.
Yeup, the only reason it isn't considered a "rulebook" is because it hasn't been meme'd by the community.
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@littlehoot said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000843#Comment_4000843
Look, I'm a surivor main who is against the 60% kill rate on a fundamental level, but my dude…I play video games to take a break from having to code my PhD data, I'm not doing all that just to 'improve' as a player.
That's the issue right here.
Some people just take the game way too serious at a fundamental level just because it is PVP and they feel like they need to prove themself when in reality nobody could care less. If anything, people will judge you for playing in a way that wastes peoples time and ruins their fun and not because you won or lost. Sadly, streamers and youtubers and all the comp players try to ingrain it into the game which is just really unhealthy, but… different issue, different thread, I guess. -
@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000940#Comment_4000940
KR is a blunt cut, not proof. it doesn’t tell you why people die: trades, scuffed MMR, throws, 1-for-3s, endgame gambles, altruism, and different win logic (killer = 4k, survivors = team outcome). comp ≠ pubs, sure—but comp is an early-warning system for outliers (perks/maps/add-ons) that grief pubs too. as long as MMR plays roulette and mixes you with much weaker players, you’ll get huge outliers—stomps with 4–5 gens up. KR measures outcome, not cause. pubs ≠ comp, but comp shows the spikes. balance = raise the floor, shave the spikes. fix MMR first, then we can talk which role is “favored” with a straight face. until then, i’m playing “comp” in every lobby the game gives me—like any other PvP game. it’s PvP.
What you seem to ignore or forget is that MMR goes both ways. You can get bad teammates and get absolutely rolled by a weaker Killer, but you can also face a weak nurse or blight and win easily. Again, it all averages in the end, which is where you get the Killrate values. Killrate might just be the outcome, but it is closely linked with the cause. Ignoring it because it is "just" the outcome isn't healthy. It needs to be part of the discussion.
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000891#Comment_4000891
there are plenty of vids and gameplay breakdowns out there (and, like I said, with heavy perk/item limits on the survivor side for the most part).
You can't base your data on tourneys and scrims, since they function fundamentally different from your regular pub match, and do not represent what 99.9% of the playerbase is experiencing, no matter how much you want to.
Regular DBD is an entirely different game to comp DBD and needs to be looked at separately. You simply do not balance around the Top 0.1% of players if you want to keep an active playerbase. Comp DBD balances itself, since they ban perks and killers and maps and whatnot. That is not BHVR's job. BHVR needs to balance regular public matches.
In regular matches, survivors make mistakes and killers make mistakes. All in all, averaging out all of those mistakes, you still get the Killer favoring 60% Killrate. There is no denying this is Killer favored, no matter what scenario you try to think up. This is by design, of course, since BHVR wants Killers to be the power-role, but that doesn't make it any less favored to one side.
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Yeah, since the PTB I have noticed an uptick to the already high rates of tunneling. Guess Killer players figured the best way to show that they are against the system is by abusing the mechanic it's trying to address. Go figure.
They know BHVR will not push it through even in the future, and if they do, it will be neutered to the point of being worthless.Actively punishing tunneling is the only way to hinder it from being abused in most matches. Every Killer reward, like the one they had during the PTB, would just be abused by people who tunnel, which is why people that ONLY want the rewards for unique hooks are just being disingenious. They just want a straight Killer buff. Unique hook buffs will NOT stop people from tunneling in the slightest. It would still be the easiest thing to do, and people will always take the path of least resistance.
Tunneling would still be the single easiest and most effective way to play, spreading Hooks with rewards wouldn't even come close. And hey, if the Tunneling Killer even get's the unique hook buff once for the first hook, they didn't disincentivize tunneling, they just BUFFED it.
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Yup, people now know that BHVR will just bend if you create enough threads on the forum and spam them on twitter and reddit complaining about it.
Even if these changes make a return next PTB with some slight tweaks, they will just repeat the same thing as they did now since they know it will work. -
@Wolf65 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/456090/once-again-killer-wins
Wow... survivor mains still around complaininf the game is killersided. I understand the bias, but what about common sense and marh? Did all of you skip school? Compare gen time to chase time. BHVR is catering to the bigger side of player. In an asymetrical game the majority of costumers to please are the survivor. That's why they come up with literal baby care rules in a survival horror game. What the heck did you expect , when you bought a "survival horror game" with the intend to play as the survivor?? Ever seen a slasher movie? "But I am a survivor, I should survive". No, most of you are supposed to be "victims". But you don't sell games, if you call 4/5th of the player victims.
Gen time and chase time doesn't determine what bias BHVR is showing. At best Killrates do, which are quite heavily skewed in the Killer players favor, no matter how much mental gymnastics you try to apply to prove that it is not. Funny how you try to argue with common sense and math when there is a single statistic that disproves everything you can think up.
I am not saying that it's necessarily a bad thing that Killer's kill and therefore win the majority of matches, although 55/45 rates probably would have made more sense in my opinion. Killer's are supposed to feel like an unstoppable force, but the changes that were proposed didn't change that. They just made the game potentially more pleasant for 4/5 players in a match whilst also buffing the fifth player if he doesn't try to cheese gameplay loop.
This probably would have resulted in Killrates dropping for a time, because Killers that relied on those crutches would have lost a bit more for a time until they are at a level where they compete again. And honestly, even with those changes, Killer's could have just changed up their build and probably tunneled through it. No gen regression doesn't do much when you simply don't bring gen regression and instead bring chase perks to end chases soon, thus also applying more pressure anyways. Most people just didn't think that far and immediately grabbed their pitchforks, since they know BHVR will bend.
Same thing happened with Fog Vials, which got them nerfed to the point where it nerfed survivor as a whole (even if just by a little bit), since they now clutter the bloodweb, chests and nerf item related perks like Plunderer's or heck, even Dramaturgy. Now instead of potentially getting a medkit you get a useless fog vial, how nice. Funnily enough, other systems like the Anti Go Next and Anti AFK were just pushed through, even if it had the same False Positives that people were complaining about with the Anti-Tunneling. Stuff like this shows a potential bias more than anything.
Also, survivors are called survivors for a reason, not "victims". Maybe that's how you see it, but that is not what they are called by the game, or what they should be treated like by the devs. -
@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996718#Comment_3996718
Also, saying the Killer role has to "suck it up" when they could choose to make people unable to play the game for years now is some hilarious hypocrisy. You know "Your fun isn't my responsibility, so enjoy hogging the floor for four minutes until you die.".
This is because:
If anything that happens on both sides and feeds into each other in a vicious cycle, like it has been doing for years now.
Which is why I explicitly mention that one side is given measures against toxicity, while the other one isn't. I provided an example about how this community treats new players — none of them have the incentive to care about other people's fun in this game. The only way to make sure it happens is to provide both sides with such measures. Until them, no positive engagement between Killers and Survivors can happen — the key is to making sure they interact less.
Claiming that there is no skill in gaming is certainly one of the takes of all time. Take any game for that matter and match someone with 1000 hours versus someone that just started and see who will win the majority of times if not all the time
And? Once people get used to the game, it's easier for them to win at it. It's not some special talent. Once again, achievements in games aren't doing anything for improvment of physical condition or mental capacity. They don't expand useful knowledge or can be applied in life. They aren't skills.
The overwhelming chances are that people with more time invested and more learned about the game will win. There is a reason e-sports exist with large price pools and giant followings.
Esports are just an example of human greed and shalowness, not to mention the exploitation of people. Doesn't serve as a proof of a skill.
Which is why I explicitly mention that one side is given measures against toxicity, while the other one isn't. I provided an example about how this community treats new players — none of them have the incentive to care about other people's fun in this game. The only way to make sure it happens is to provide both sides with such measures. Until them, no positive engagement between Killers and Survivors can happen — the key is to making sure they interact less.
It is a vicious cycle, meaning the same way it spiraled downwards means it can go upwards. What I am trying to say is, even if they just address one side for now, it will inevitably have an effect on both sides. This is not some competition where people should argue which side has gotten the longer end of the stick. The point is that there is a stick now. Measures like this will inevitably make the game less toxic on both sides.
For example: Killer A tunnels or slugs out Goodie Twoshoes survivor B, who then evolves into his final survivor form: rat survivor B. He will now start teabagging and being annoying however he can to goodie twoshoes Killer C who had nothing to do with the previous interaction. Goodie Twoshoes Killer C will now evolve into HIS final form too and punish survivors who had nothing to do with the previous interaction either.
Now instead, Killer A will not be able to do that, causing Survivor B to stay nice, which then causes Killer C to stay nice. Now I am aware that it is a bit more complicated than that, and might not always play out like that, but even if it does SOMETIMES, then it will have a longlasting effect on game health. Butterfly effect and all. This is just the route BHVR chose. You don't need to give both sides something for both to benefit from it (Besides, Killers now have basekit pop, Basekit bbq and some decent haste, so they DID get something, just not what people might have wanted).And? Once people get used to the game, it's easier for them to win at it. It's not some special talent. Once again, achievements in games aren't doing anything for improvment of physical condition or mental capacity. They don't expand useful knowledge or can be applied in life. They aren't skills.
Saying that people get used to the game, making it easier for the win is just a different way of saying they are more skilled at the game. Also, games absolutely can improve "real life skills", if you don't wanna count how good someone is in a game as a skill. Video games have been proven to improve reaction time and problem solving capabilities for example, which are most definitely skills that can help you in real life, improving your mental capacities.
Esports are just an example of human greed and shalowness, not to mention the exploitation of people. Doesn't serve as a proof of a skill.
You have a bleak outlook on humanity. You need to separate between those that plan those tournaments, and the players that play in those tournaments.
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996366#Comment_3996366
Because the Killer is the "power role" those who main them feel entitled to absolute domination. They are not actually a supernatural killer, they're just a dude in a gaming chair playing with dudes in other gaming chairs.
Here is the contradiction: you say that the Killer is the power role, so it must automatically suck it up and endure everything thrown at them, while acknowledging that they're just people playing with other people. So, just like other people, they become frustrated and lose enjoyment in the game — when they lose and when they are punished both by the game and the winners. This very forum already had a case where the user's friend tried to get into DbD as a Killer, only to encounter a sweat squad that bullied her relentlessly, mocked her in the endgame chat, telling her to uninstall and calling her a total failure. You think she'd want to go back to this game afterwards? For what? For more abuse? What is her incentive? Is she supposed to have fun with those people?
You can still kill, be scary, torment them
The game doesn't give you points for tormenting or being scary. You get most amount of points and grow your rank for hooks and kills.
Survivors still have plenty of ways to lose, they're just hard nerfing the cheesiest and least skillful method of doing that.
There is not such thing as skill in gaming. It's not a sport, it's not a craft, it's not a science, it's enterainment that doesn't provide people with any skills or talents they will use in real life. To chastise people that they aren't winning "skillfully" while simultaneously nurturing the culture of winning and dehumanization of those who lose matches is ridiculous.
this community is very toxic. I blame it on the wave of hyper-competitive players. Everything is about what is meta, everything has to be an "S-tier", and have their entire emotional well-being placed on winning a match
And this community isn't going to get better, so it's up to devs to fix that. However, they continue to equip one side with more toxicity, while shrugging the concerns of the other side and basically replying with "do better" or "it's your fault for feeling bad when a squad makes your game miserable"
Here is the contradiction: you say that the Killer is the power role, so it must automatically suck it up and endure everything thrown at them, while acknowledging that they're just people playing with other people. So, just like other people, they become frustrated and lose enjoyment in the game — when they lose and when they are punished both by the game and the winners.
Killers are the power-role in the sense that they control how much of the game the survivors can play. If a Killer so desires (be it by Tunneling or Slugging for example) the Killer can essentially remove one or multiple survivors from the match, or pretty much make them unable to interact in any meaningful way. If survivors could force Killers to be unable to attack or progress the game in their favor, imagine the outcry that would happen. Granted it wouldn't make sense either of course, but the underlying issue here is fun and engagement. Right now (on live servers anyways), Killers can decide whether or not you are allowed to have fun in the match. These changes will take that away from Killers to some extent.
BHVR wants to streamline the game a bit with these changes, because this is probably what they think will cause the highest engagement between survivors and killers. Also, saying the Killer role has to "suck it up" when they could choose to make people unable to play the game for years now is some hilarious hypocrisy. You know "Your fun isn't my responsibility, so enjoy hogging the floor for four minutes until you die.".There is not such thing as skill in gaming. It's not a sport, it's not a craft, it's not a science, it's enterainment that doesn't provide people with any skills or talents they will use in real life. To chastise people that they aren't winning "skillfully" while simultaneously nurturing the culture of winning and dehumanization of those who lose matches is ridiculous.
Claiming that there is no skill in gaming is certainly one of the takes of all time. Take any game for that matter and match someone with 1000 hours versus someone that just started and see who will win the majority of times if not all the time. The overwhelming chances are that people with more time invested and more learned about the game will win. There is a reason e-sports exist with large price pools and giant followings. Only a few people will ever reach the skill to participate in the highest echelons of a game, which is pretty much the exact same as to how real sports like football or basketball operate.
Also, I don't know where you got that one-sided "dehumanization" from. If anything that happens on both sides and feeds into each other in a vicious cycle, like it has been doing for years now. -
I mean to be fair, Killers might just adjust their build to tunnel.
Completely blocking regression doesn't do much when the Killer will just end up bringing 4 Chase perks instead now. That way, they not only ignore one of the punishments they would get, they also end chases quicker leading to more pressure on the survivor side. Even the gen speed bonus would get diminished from this, because quicker chases means less time to be able to spend on gens, since you will get pushed off of them quicker and more rotation needs to happen to keep survivors off of hooks. After all, hooking and downing survivors is still the best form of stopping gen progress, the changes that are coming won't change that.
I don't think most Killer mains realized this yet though, they are still in panic mode when looking at the Threads. -
This… just doesn't make sense to me. Whilst it is true that gen regression might be more impactful early game, it will then make the killer way weaker in the lategame… Besides… this is just gaslighting killers into thinking they are doing better than they actually are.
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Killers now have basekit pop, a light version of basekit bbq and 10% of haste for 15 seconds… that is absolutely big, how can that just be ignored?
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990759#Comment_3990759
Lol. Me too. It'll be funny to watch survivors whine about 10+ minute queues to play against yet another S tier killer sweating their ass off. Because casual killers aren't going to stick around for this crap.
Yeah I doubt the casual killers were going out of their way to tunnel or slug, so instead they can enjoy the bonuses they get from spreading hooks. Nice try though.
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I don't see the hype around 2v8 at all. Even with a 10x Bloodpoint multiplier I wouldn't touch that gamemode.
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@VibranToucan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987642#Comment_3987642
Why should commonality determine balance? Hag is the lowest pickrate killer in the game. Does that mean they should never change hag again? What about maps? Map offerings are extremely rare nowadays and there are lik 45 different maps you could go to, so odds are any given map is very rare, and each time they add a new one all the other become more rare. Should they never rebalance maps? Or does the arbetrary line get drawn somewhere between these points?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987649#Comment_3987649
I mean, syringes are low skill, but outside of chase do you know what is also low skill? Holding M1 on a survivor for 16 seconds. I do agree that it can save time to use a syringe if you don't tunnel, but it takes as little skill as healing outright, which is literally holding a button and hitting some skillchecks.
Thats why I said low skill, high reward. Even ignoring you can use the medkit normally between popping a syringe, saving 16 seconds for each Survior or 32 second total is huge. There are definintely tons of games where the results would have been completely different if the last gens popped 32 seconds earlier/later.
But when you get tunneled you still need to not get hit in order for it to work. I honestly don't understand this argument at all.
If Survivors go down consistently in less than 16 seconds, that is a skill issue on their part, and the killer would very likely have won without tunneling. And if you don't get for 16 seconds off the hook its a free health state.
Besides, you are completely overlooking the fact that Killer perks exist. People that tunnel usually bring a plethora of gen slowdown perks like dead man's switch, grim embrace, corrupt, deadlock, pain res, surge, heck even thrilling tremors if you wanna get fancy. These perks literally take the job of having to apply some map pressure by just passively slowing the game down, or pushing survivors in a certain direction in corrupt's case. It requires no input from the Killer besides pain res (which is probably one of the worst tunnel perks anyways since it requires you to hook different people, and at that point you aren't tunneling anymore, you are splitting hooks) and applies map pressure by itself.
Dead Man's Switch requires you to let go off the gen, which in your view of tunneling the killer doesnt do. Grim Embrace requires different hooks to be remotely good. Corrupt only blocks some gens, meaning Survivor can just do the others and deactivates once you get a down. Surge requires the person to take chase to the gens being done. Thrilling Tremors only blocks gens nobody is working on. Deadlock and Pain Res are the only ones where you get free pressure without doing anything while tunneling. And by the same logic, Survivors have perks and items. Deja Vu, Hyperfocus, Brand New Parts, etc…
Okay, are we talking about the same tunneling? When you tunnel, you don't split pressure pretty much at all, unless the person that is being tunnelled is currently on the hook in which case you would usually try to disturb survivors from completing generators. Tunneling is specifically used because you DON'T need to split pressure or objectives, rather hyperfixating on making the game a 1v3 in the shortest amount of time.
You need to effeciently pressure objectives while the Survivor is on the hook, while also being in the position to return in time before they sneak off. Don't pressure enough and the team pushes through gens before the tunnel is done, too much and you lose your tunnel target.
Also, by "cheapest" I mean, once again, that it is low skill high reward.
If cheap means "low skill high reward", then anything is cheap. Lets talk about window vaults. By vaulting one you get distance on the killer for the price of holding shift and pressing a spacebar. Slap on Finesse to make the vault save and Lithe to get distance to use it on the next vault. Also it is not technically impossible to win as Survivor without using vaults? So is vaulting a cheap tactic that needs to be addressed?
You slap on gen slowdown, load into the match, find the mikaela, down her, hook her, go to some gens to get survivors of of them if your perks didn't do that by themselves until she is unhooked, then return to down her again, presumably whilst she only has one health state since she just got unhooked, rinse and repeat.
The average killer cannot teleport back to the hook. If you leave to pressure gens and the Survivors play it well, odds are they are gone by the time you return to the hook. And if you don't pressure gens you don't pressure gens. Unless you play Blight or Kaneki pressuring Gens and unhooks at the same time is far from easy.
Also if tunneling is as OP, easy and common as y'all are saying it must have a massive effect on the killrate and just removing it would drop it massively. Even in your view, it would argue for massive killer buffs along with anti-tunnel changes, not just anti-tunnel changes.
If Survivors go down consistently in less than 16 seconds, that is a skill issue on their part, and the killer would very likely have won without tunneling. And if you don't get for 16 seconds off the hook its a free health state.
Well you can't really generalise and say that a survivor should never go down quickly since that also undermines Killer skill or any Anti-Loop powers of the ever growing roster of Killers. And you know, if the Killers could have easily won without tunneling in that case, why didn't he do it? Because it is easier to do with tunneling. Honestly, in all, comparing a playstyle with items doesn't make sense either way, that's like comparing professional football players via the shoes they are wearing and how that somehow dictates how they play and not just by how they play.
Dead Man's Switch requires you to let go off the gen, which in your view of tunneling the killer doesnt do. Grim Embrace requires different hooks to be remotely good. Corrupt only blocks some gens, meaning Survivor can just do the others and deactivates once you get a down. Surge requires the person to take chase to the gens being done. Thrilling Tremors only blocks gens nobody is working on. Deadlock and Pain Res are the only ones where you get free pressure without doing anything while tunneling. And by the same logic, Survivors have perks and items. Deja Vu, Hyperfocus, Brand New Parts, etc…
I mean, I disagree but I'll chalk this up to the difference in what we play and how strong we percieve different perks. The answer is probably somewhere in the middle. Agree to disagree.
If cheap means "low skill high reward", then anything is cheap. Lets talk about window vaults. By vaulting one you get distance on the killer for the price of holding shift and pressing a spacebar. Slap on Finesse to make the vault save and Lithe to get distance to use it on the next vault. Also it is not technically impossible to win as Survivor without using vaults? So is vaulting a cheap tactic that needs to be addressed?
This is just a logical fallacy, because you can't break down complicated bigger things into smaller simpler things, and then claim the entire thing is simple as a result.
Vaulting as an action itself might just require a button press, but much more goes into it to make it meaningful in the game. As a survivor and also killer you have to be able to judge your angle to the vault, distance to the vault, distance to the killer or survivor, whether it is useful to vault, whether it is useful to pull a mindgame or not, (this only for survivors) whether the angle you have to the vault will result in a medium or fast vault, which might change how you approach it and if you do decide to vault where to go after the vault. And of course, actually pressing the button to vault. In a vacuum, each of these things might be simple and given some time, you could probably determine the optimal play, but in a game, where you might have to do splitsecond decisions based on all of these things and more like whether the survivor or killer is doubling back, it is a very complicated task to do in a fairly fast paced game like DBD.
Don't get me wrong, in a lot of cases the answer to the question of "should you vault" is an obvious one, depending on the circumstances, but when killer and survivors are mindgaming each other at a loop and you make the right decisions based on game knowledge and prior experiences, that's what one would call skill. The difference to tunneling in this case, is that vaulting is a high risk play in a lot of cases, where one wrong splitsecond decision vault could mean getting hit or downed, as to where tunneling is a safe bet in most cases. As killer, you usually have to worry about quite alot of things in a game at all times if you don't tunnel, like what the map looks like, tracking where survivors are, having a general overview of gen progress on non completed things, an overview of survivor resources and maybe even perks.
Why? Because they have a huge impact at how you approach the game and where you want to be at anyone time. With tunneling, the answer of where you wanna be is obvious at all times. At the start of the game you need to find your tunneling target, and then chase them. When you hook them, go to a generator that might be getting worked on, but not too far away from the hook as to where you can't return it. With ever smaller maps that's getting easier and easier aswell. Once the target gets unhooked, you return to the hook, where, unless you ran to the opposite site of the map (which should result in you getting punished since its a misplay and should be obvious if you plan to tunnel), you will either find the survivors healing, or scratch marks leading to them. Rinse and repeat. The first survivor will be dead fairly quickly and now you are at a massive advantage with the 1v3. Just one more hook and finding another chase is enough to halt generator progress completely. But hey, you still have 2 generators left if you tunneled well, or 1 if you didn't.
Also if tunneling is as OP, easy and common as y'all are saying it must have a massive effect on the killrate and just removing it would drop it massively. Even in your view, it would argue for massive killer buffs along with anti-tunnel changes, not just anti-tunnel changes.
Okay, I will adjust my theory for you in that case. When the Anti-Tunnel changes take effect and everyone would stop tunneling immediately, then yes, for a while, I would expect the kill rates to fall, as people who have relied on it to win games lose more games. After a while though, it would adjust again and probably rise back to a similar, probably slightly lower Killrate as peoples MMR adjusts since they after a while will verse people that they can beat without tunneling. Killrates probably won't quite reach what they were before the anti-tunnel changes though, and that's where you then can apply buffs to rectify this issue. You could of course buff killers along with the tunnel changes, but if the tunnel changes turn out to be worthless, you have suddenly just massively buffed killers. Whether BHVR will go the route of Anti-Tunnel Changes first, killer buffs or later, or both at the same time, with potential killer nerfs down the line is up to them. One of the two has to happen, and depending what role you play most, you would probably prefer one of the two options. Either way, BHVR will get heat for their decision.
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Syringes are also low skill high reward. All it does is require you to press a button and you get a health state. Unless you do it mid chase the killer doesn't have enough time to catch up and even if you are bad at looping a basic few runs around shack or something should give you enough time to get the health state. Also, you absolutely need map pressure to tunnel lol. If you just throw someone on the hook and wait just outside the camp range to go for them again, the other Survivors can just easily push through gens. Tunneling is a pretty risky strategy because if done wrong you constantly have 3 people work at gens uncontested.
I mean, syringes are low skill, but outside of chase do you know what is also low skill? Holding M1 on a survivor for 16 seconds. I do agree that it can save time to use a syringe if you don't tunnel, but it takes as little skill as healing outright, which is literally holding a button and hitting some skillchecks. But when you get tunneled you still need to not get hit in order for it to work. I honestly don't understand this argument at all.
Besides, you are completely overlooking the fact that Killer perks exist. People that tunnel usually bring a plethora of gen slowdown perks like dead man's switch, grim embrace, corrupt, deadlock, pain res, surge, heck even thrilling tremors if you wanna get fancy. These perks literally take the job of having to apply some map pressure by just passively slowing the game down, or pushing survivors in a certain direction in corrupt's case. It requires no input from the Killer besides pain res (which is probably one of the worst tunnel perks anyways since it requires you to hook different people, and at that point you aren't tunneling anymore, you are splitting hooks) and applies map pressure by itself.Not really. Tunneling effeciently needs you to be able to split pressure on a whim, while also pressuring objectives. Easiest is just hooking anyone you see, maybe keep hookstages in mind if you see two people at the same time. And what do you even mean by "cheapest"?
Okay, are we talking about the same tunneling? When you tunnel, you don't split pressure pretty much at all, unless the person that is being tunnelled is currently on the hook in which case you would usually try to disturb survivors from completing generators. Tunneling is specifically used because you DON'T need to split pressure or objectives, rather hyperfixating on making the game a 1v3 in the shortest amount of time.
Also, by "cheapest" I mean, once again, that it is low skill high reward. You slap on gen slowdown, load into the match, find the mikaela, down her, hook her, go to some gens to get survivors of of them if your perks didn't do that by themselves until she is unhooked, then return to down her again, presumably whilst she only has one health state since she just got unhooked, rinse and repeat. In most cases the survivor is dead and only a couple generators have been completed in that time, and with 2 gens or more remaining, the game is already decided unless you mess up badly (which by the way, should mean that you lose). Again, in a 1v3 once you have hooked one more person, all you need to do is find one other survivor and chase them. Now you have 1 survivor on hook, 1 survivor being chased 1 survivor having to go for the rescue. 0 generator progress. This is why forcing a 1v3 fundamentally breaks the game and why tunneling (from the start of the game) needs to be addressed.Edit: Mentioning @VibranToucan because I forgot to in the post
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@VibranToucan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987403#Comment_3987403
The game gives you items in the bloodweb and in chests. It says, "Here, use this." Show me where the game says to tunnel. Is it in the tutorial? The tips on the loading screen? I must have missed it.
Are you saying that something isn't intended because the game doesn't explicitly advertise it? By that logic using voice calls in SFW is also on the same level, I never saw the game tell me "Use discord to chat with your friends while you play with them."
Tunneling makes people feel like crap, especially early-game, immediate tunneling. It's rare that I come across a 4-man that leaves me feeling helpless as killer. But as survivor, that feeling is ordinary. There's no way for me (in soloq) to torment killers the way they torment me when they shove me out of a match. I've never had a streak of killer games that made me feel terrible. But I've had whole weeks of survivor that have.
I mean there are plenty of things that make me feel like crap when playing Survivor or Killer, but that doesn't mean the other side is a bad person for it or that it should be nerfed to the ground.
It comes down to what you care about: winning or fun. I'm not interested in winning so I can inflate some stats nobody cares about anyway, and at the expense of making everyone else miserable. I want to have a fun match, and that involves having my opponents be able to perform as well. I'm not trying to immediately cripple them. I want the game to feel even and fair regardless of what role I'm playing. I want it to be close. I want everyone's scores to be decent. If I'm the killer in a match that's rapidly snowballing two minutes in and I see hope is disappearing for the other side then I'll often pull back and let them heal and reorientate themselves. Because I'm trying to play a match, not just win and leave. What's even the point of that?
Most people find winning fun. I am sorry, but yeah if Survivors swarm the slug for a pallet save against my Bubba and hand me a 4 man slug, I am not going to say no. Like if people didn't think winning was fun, then we wouldn't have this problem in the first place. Cause people play games to have fun.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987412#Comment_3987412
Yes, and like you just separated them yourself we were talking about gameplay tactics, not items. Tunneling and Items are nowhere near the same ballpark of impact they have on the match, which is another reason why they shouldn't be compared. A rogue syringe or killer add-on might have a viable impact of the outcome of the match, tunneling almost definitely always has an impact on the match. Forcing a 1v3 is probably one of if not the biggest impact you can have on a match, pretty much deciding the match right there if atleast like 2 generators are still remaining at that time in most games. It literally shifts how survivors have to approach the entire match.
Four syringes have a huge impact on a game, I would say easily higher impact than tunneling. Even if tunneling was objectively more impactful, why do you get to decide that the line of "impactful enough to be worth removing", is drawn at exactly that spot? Also, items definitely shift how killers have to approach the match. If a Survivor has a medkit, hitting them and then dropping chase is less impactful. If Survivors have flashlights, you need to be much more worry about your surroundings. You are just finding any difference and then for no real reason saying "this is the line that matters most"
"I said tunneling is a low-skill strategy to be used and abused for cheap wins."
Again, you could say the same about anything.
why do you get to decide that the line of "impactful enough to be worth removing", is drawn at exactly that spot?
BHVR is addressing tunneling soon, not syringes, so why don't you just ask them? It seems to be high enough on their priority list to warrant addressing. Whether or not any changes they make will have a meaningful impact is to be seen. And there are different reasons as to why they are probably addressing it. To name a few:
- Tunneling is a low-skill high-reward strategy. You barely need to know anything about how the game works to do it. Compare it for example with spreading map pressure, probably what I would advocate for the most. Spreading map pressure needs fairly extensive knowledge of the maps, the survivors and potentially their perks if you pick up on them, how survivors tend to spread themselves out, how your killer interacts with the map. Probably a few more things too that I can't think of the top of my head. That takes a long time to learn and lots of experience. In comparison, for tunneling you need to know: What the survivor you are tunneling looks like, knowing that anti-tunnel perks exist and maybe playing around them, or straight up ignoring them for a marginal time loss, and maybe how your killer power can help you in tunneling. A pretty low bar to set, for a potentially high reward.
- It is boring. There is barely any interactivity happening, and it essentially removes any meaningful gameplay for one player. You just get chased, eventually go down, get unhooked, get chased with one health state, go down, get unhooked, get chased with one health state, go down, die. The most fun one can have is in really close games, where it could really end either way, coming down to the wire. When you tunnel someone out immediately, that rarely ever happens. The game has been forcibly made a 1v3, and they are at one maybe two generators left, there is pretty much no way that is gonna happen, unless you mess up badly (in which case you should lose).
- It actively hinders killers from getting buffed. Since tunneling is included in the killrate and artificially boosts it, BHVR is less likely to buff killers to get their intended killrate back in line, should it be out of line without it.
Four syringes have a huge impact on a game, I would say easily higher impact than tunneling.
Well, when you resort to tunneling you usually don't have to worry about four syringes, just the one from the person you are tunneling. As for flashlights you might have to waste a couple of seconds checking your surroundings, maybe getting a hit by finding a survivor waiting for a flashlight save (which by the way, stopped them from repairing a generator, hence slowing the game down). The impact simply cannot be compared, no matter how overpowered you make syringes or flashlights sound.
"I said tunneling is a low-skill strategy to be used and abused for cheap wins." Again, you could say the same about anything.
You really can't. If you compare strategies with each other, tunneling is the easiest and cheapest one to do.
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@VibranToucan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987315#Comment_3987315
Tunneling is a playstyle, items are not. At best, you could compare survivor items with killer add-ons, in which case I could ask you the exact same thing as you did with items.
Why can't I compare playstyles to items? They are both things you can relatively easily try to use for an advantage. The same arguments can apply. You are just using a seemingly arbetrary line to draw a distinction.
Also, items and add-ons don't change the core gameplay loop in a way that streamlines and deprecates gameplay as much as tunneling does.
They absolutely do. Tunneling is the same gameplay loop. Get chased, get downed, get hooked, meanwhile the other Survivors do gens. Items meanwhile. Syringe and Styptic essentially give Survivors a free health state for free, Flashlights and Flashbangs add a whole new element in the form of saves even without pallets, Fog Vials add on demand LOS obstruction. Items definitely affect the gameplay loop more than tunneling.
"Killers losing games isn't particularly fun either." Again, same thing could be said for survivors. Besides, just because you don't tunnel, doesn't mean that you will lose, far from it infact, statistically. The game still has a 60% Killrate after all, and even higher for alot of Killer Mains, but that is not the topic of this thread anyways.
Yeah that was my point. Losing isn't fun for either side. So we shouldn't just suddenly put in huge balance changes against slugging/tunneling unless we know how to counter ramifications. Killers have a 60% killrate overall, tunneling included. Also, I am kind of confused on this point. Yeah, I won't lose every game without tunneling, so? Like am I supposed to be like "Damn, this game is wineable but I am already over the average winrate so I should just give up?" Like no, people generally play to win, regardless of how much they are supposed to.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987370#Comment_3987370
Tunneling is a choice and a tactic. Items are part of the game's design. They're not comparable.
Tactics and hook stages are also part of the games design? Like there is no law that would stop the devs from putting in something like "Oh, once you get 12 hooks all Survivors die and never before that." Tunneling is not an exploit. Items and tactics are both parts of the games design.
I win some games, lose others. I never tunnel, and actively avoid recently uhooked survivors. I'm playing the game as I believe it was intended to be played, and I have the exact 60% kill rate the game shoots for.
My killrate on Skull Merchant is 77% and my Killrate on Dracula is 52%. That doesn't mean Skull Merchant is S Tier or that Dracula is mid. Self reported data from a few individuals doesn't say much about the general balance of a game of millionsm, especially if we have better data.
Last time it was reported the escape rate data was at roughly 40% overall and easily over 40% at high MMR (https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/1k58ik7/stats_january_march_2025/) this data of course includes people who tunnel.
"Tunneling is not an exploit. Items and tactics are both parts of the games design."
Yes, and like you just separated them yourself we were talking about gameplay tactics, not items. Tunneling and Items are nowhere near the same ballpark of impact they have on the match, which is another reason why they shouldn't be compared. A rogue syringe or killer add-on might have a viable impact of the outcome of the match, tunneling almost definitely always has an impact on the match. Forcing a 1v3 is probably one of if not the biggest impact you can have on a match, pretty much deciding the match right there if atleast like 2 generators are still remaining at that time in most games. It literally shifts how survivors have to approach the entire match.
"Like am I supposed to be like "Damn, this game is wineable but I am already over the average winrate so I should just give up?" Like no, people generally play to win, regardless of how much they are supposed to."
No, I never said that you shouldn't try to win. I said tunneling is a low-skill strategy to be used and abused for cheap wins. I have honestly no idea where you got that from. Again, I could also bring up that it is just straight up boring to verse ontop of everything else, but "Your fun isn't my responsibility", so I will just let that go for now.@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987267#Comment_3987267
wdym?
I’ve just been a super active player since release. I’m just really careful with some of the people here on the forums. There are a ton of “forum mains.”
The last person who tried to tell me about “cheap wins,” “low skill,” and “git gud, you just have to improve” had 5k posts on the forum but hadn’t even played 100 hours in DBD since 2021. I rack that up in two weeks easy.
Sorry, but when someone plays so little (and not even on Killer), it’s hard for me to take any of their “advice” seriously. There are people (like me) who play this game competitively, and tunneling/slugging and all that stuff is just part of it.
It’s just funny how it always goes in the direction of: “You don’t have macro and can’t play/win any other way.” Just because you pick the most efficient strategy whenever the opportunity presents itself (no, there are plenty of matches where straight tunneling isn’t the best choice).
You can do this in a lot of standard-average lobbies (even in high MMR) without perks and without add-ons. It’s basically a coinflip if u against “average teams”—so why should I gamble?
Especially when I read the mindset of a lot of people: “You just have to know how,” “You’re just bad,” “You haven’t developed the necessary skills.”
Being constantly confronted with this mindset from the DBD community, something I’ve really never seen in any other PvP game, I’d rather just end these lobbys fast, clean, and as efficiently as possible.
This survivor community is sometimes so entitled, (or people like u are just ready to throw out, “you can’t even play this game no macro/no skill) I just don’t care about weaker lobbies anymore.
Not that you’re thinking of.
"but maybe not 85% though, and that's what's stopping you."
I honestly don’t give a damn about my kill rate, but I’ve got my principles.
For me, it’s simple—just like in Tarkov, Hunt, CS, or basically any other PvP: learn the game and fight back, oru will die fast in this match. Yup, I know, DBD isn’t the same because it’s asymmetrical. But I’ve never seen a community so damn unwilling to learn, but honestly, every time I’m confronted with the mindset of people in this game (forum, after-chat, whatever), I really ask myself: why should I even care?
And there are plenty of people who play the game competitively, and their perspectives and opinions can be pretty different from the (admittedly way bigger) casuals… but it’s always the ones who just want their experience to count.
i mean.. like this guy:
Brother, you are wasting your time.
…and tons of other “I downvote everything and my opinion is the only one that matters” people. :D
classic dbd community.
but..
Luckily, at the end of the day, everyone can play however they want as long as they’re not abusing bugs, glitches, or breaking ToS. That’s exactly what I’ll keep doing myself—without holding back (not even in casual lobbies, because I know this community way too well). And yip,
I’ll still keep saying it on the forums whenever this tunnel talk pops up again…:
tunneling is part of the game.
Slugging is part of the game.
Proxy camping is part of the game.
This survivor community is sometimes so entitled, (or people like u are just ready to throw out, “you can’t even play this game no macro/no skill) I just don’t care about weaker lobbies anymore.
I’ve just been a super active player since release. I’m just really careful with some of the people here on the forums. There are a ton of “forum mains.”
The last person who tried to tell me about “cheap wins,” “low skill,” and “git gud, you just have to improve” had 5k posts on the forum but hadn’t even played 100 hours in DBD since 2021. I rack that up in two weeks easy.
Sorry, but when someone plays so little (and not even on Killer), it’s hard for me to take any of their “advice” seriously. There are people (like me) who play this game competitively, and tunneling/slugging and all that stuff is just part of it.
I mean, complaining about entitlement whilst the first three paragraphs of that same post were pretty much just entitlement too is just funny.
It’s just funny how it always goes in the direction of: “You don’t have macro and can’t play/win any other way.”
Again, I never said that you don't have macro. Heck, I said the opposite stating that you probably have good macro with your amount of hours. Like I said in the post before, I am talking about the average Killer, that hinders himself with tunneling, artificially boosting himself to verse opponents his skillset can't handle, which then causes him to tunnel more and use even more crutches to win.
I honestly don't give a damn about my kill rate, but I've got my principles.
Then why did you bring it up? That wasn't me.
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@VibranToucan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987253#Comment_3987253
Killers that tunnel basically limit themselves and stop themselves from getting better at the game in exchange for some cheap wins. And it's a vicious cycle too. Once their MMR starts rising from all the undeserved wins they get faced with better survivors that know how to punish tunnelling more effectively (be it, by just being better loopers in general or whatever), they will need to start using all of the best tools in their kit to stay competitive in their inflated MMR, which will then reside in even more tunneling or cheap tactics for cheap wins.
Why is tunneling the only "cheap" tactic? It's a tactic you can use that helps you win. You could say the same if anything else. "Oh survivors who bring medkits/toolboxes artificially inflate their MMR and then they'll go against stronger killers they need to rely on items more and more for more cheap escapes. Survivors hurt themselves by bringing items." Like no, tunneling isn't some oversight exploit that breaks the game. It is a part of the game that you can use if you'd like and know how to and that can help you.
That's also completely disregarding how the person being tunneled feels about it, which is another pain-point entirely. But since the overarching mentality that's been plaguing this game has been "I am not responsible for your fun" (For both sides by the way), I doubt that's gonna change anytime soon.
Killers losing games isn't particularly fun either. I personally hate chemical trap and syringes, but that doesn't mean Survivors are bad for using them.
There's a couple things here that simply can't be compared.
Tunneling is a playstyle, items are not. At best, you could compare survivor items with killer add-ons, in which case I could ask you the exact same thing as you did with items. Also, items and add-ons don't change the core gameplay loop in a way that streamlines and deprecates gameplay as much as tunneling does.
Tunneling is a "cheap" tactic because it requires such low skill to get such a high reward. Like I said in earlier posts, you don't need to learn any macro-skills in order to win games with tunneling. You need to know what the person you tunnel looks like, and the bloodlust timers."Killers losing games isn't particularly fun either." Again, same thing could be said for survivors. Besides, just because you don't tunnel, doesn't mean that you will lose, far from it infact, statistically. The game still has a 60% Killrate after all, and even higher for alot of Killer Mains, but that is not the topic of this thread anyways.
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987259#Comment_3987259
It’s always the same. And I just find it hilarious how everyone talks about 'cheap wins'… with the oh-so-scary 'high MMR' like the evil tunneling killer is suddenly gonna get these teams ppl fhinks he deserve it because "big bad evil tunneling" and they ‘don’t wanna learn the game.’ After over 10,000 hours, with a constant grind of 100+ hours in two weeks, (and a kill rate of 85) I’m still waiting for these lobbies to actually exist.
Oh sorry, I didn't know I was talking to John Daylight himself.
Have you ever considered that the fact that you might have a kill rate of 85%, which in and of itself simply shouldn't be possible, because you have 10k hours and are also resorting to tunneling given your responses? I was talking about the average Killer, that simply didn't play enough to develop all the necessary skills to thrive as a killer player (hence, why their MMR can still rise, since you should be at very high MMR with that amount of hours, probably close to the hardcap), and instead now hinders himself by tunneling every chance he gets, not about the 10k hour person that at that point probably developed sufficient macro-play (intentionally or not) along any other "tactics" they might employ, to even win games against objectively excellent survivors. I'm sure with your amount of hours you would still get well above the intended 60% killrate without tunneling, but maybe not 85% though, and that's what's stopping you.
It's kind of mindblowing that you don't see an issue in these stats. -
@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987253#Comment_3987253
Killers that tunnel basically limit themselves and stop themselves from getting better at the game in exchange for some cheap wins. And it's a vicious cycle too. Once their MMR starts rising from all the undeserved wins they get faced with better survivors that know how to punish tunnelling more effectively (be it, by just being better loopers in general or whatever), they will need to start using all of the best tools in their kit to stay
competitivein their inflated MMR, which will then reside in even more tunneling or cheap tactics for cheap wins.I’m curious… how much better are the teams supposed to get than the ones I’m already matched with? Enlighten me.
Well that depends on how far you are into the cycle. After all I have no idea how good the teams you are matched with are. That's probably something you can answer for yourself better than I can do for you, by analyzing what the survivors are bringing and how well they are utilizing everything at their disposal.
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@Volcz said:
They tunnel cause the teammates don't punish. You ever go against a face camping Bubba? The play is to do gens and put pressure on him. If you don't, your match is over.
That's just shifting the blame again.
People will always do whatever is easiest and takes the least brain-power to do. Facecamping Bubba would fall into that exact same ballpark, very easy to do, very hard to counter (if you don't just give up on the camped person entirely and immediately). Same thing with tunneling. Why learn how to create pressure and get a good sense for macro-play when you can just make the game a 3v1 from the start because the game doesn't punish you for it and have free pressure like that instead?
Killers that tunnel basically limit themselves and stop themselves from getting better at the game in exchange for some cheap wins. And it's a vicious cycle too. Once their MMR starts rising from all the undeserved wins they get faced with better survivors that know how to punish tunnelling more effectively (be it, by just being better loopers in general or whatever), they will need to start using all of the best tools in their kit to stay competitive in their inflated MMR, which will then reside in even more tunneling or cheap tactics for cheap wins.
That's also completely disregarding how the person being tunneled feels about it, which is another pain-point entirely. But since the overarching mentality that's been plaguing this game has been "I am not responsible for your fun" (For both sides by the way), I doubt that's gonna change anytime soon.