70 seconds hook states duration. Let's talk about it.
Let's talk about it.
What do you think?
Is this good for the game? Is this bad?
Is it gonna make tunneling more needed, considering survivors now have more time to finish a gen and then go for a save last second?
Or is it gonna incentivise spreading pressure once in a 3v1 better?
What do you think?
Comments
default expectation. why is it default expectation for killer to play for the fun of survivors? the dev should be rewarding killer to leave on their own accord to acquire hook-states. right now they're punishing the killer.@jesterkind talked about most of the rest but I wanted to point out two things on this.
1: It's weird to use the word punish. I could say that the timer should always have been 70 seconds and that survivors have been punished for years with the 60 second timer. I could say 70 isn't sufficient and survivors are still being punished.
Game mechanics are arbitrary numbers, there's no inherent reason the place they are set at is correct.
2: Killers don't have to care about survivors fun, but devs need to. If a certain killer playstyle results in unfun games they need to address it. That's just how game development works. It's why we can't sabotage all the hooks or auto finish a gen with a BMP (or more recently not destroying hooks when a survivor dies).
the longer hook time delays the rush to need save the survivor. they can stay on generators longer before doing the hook trades. you can read dev post but it is somewhat implied for survivor to get 10 extra seconds for free to do the generator. in my opinion, survivor should be on the backfoot when killer gets the hook. survivor should only be at advantage when nobody is hooked. that is why it is risk to leave hook for killer because you might land up with a late hook. the change also buffs mobility killers and punishes immobile killers because mobile killer are able to leave the hook and comeback the hook quicker. Most people agree that mobile killer tend to be stronger on average so why are we punishes weaker killer archetype? why does hag for example need +10 second nerf on hooks? Why is trapper being punished? so on.
They only all get ten extra seconds to do generators if you're camping, which is how it should work.
The killer shouldn't be rewarded for just standing in place. If you want your hook to matter, you should definitely have to keep actively playing the game and push your advantage yourself.
I'll say it again, because it really does matter: If survivors choose to ignore a hook and prioritise generators, that CAN absolutely put them on the back foot, if YOU make that happen. What you're describing, where a killer is advantaged while there's someone on the hook, is already how it works - the killer just has to appropriately react to the situation and not stand in place.
Survivors are only advantaged while someone's on the hook if the killer is being passive and trying to defend that hook instead of pushing their advantage. In other words, passive play makes your advantage disappear. In pretty much any other kind of game, if you react to an opening by turtling up, you don't get to benefit from that opening. In a fighting game you'd need to actually punish a whiff and start a combo, in a shooter you'd have to pop up and shoot, etcetera.
This is only a punishment for killers who play passively, not to any particular archetype.
the killer is reacting to the survivor play. the killer does not get to decide what survivor play is. there is suppose to be inherit trades offs between rushing generators and hook-states. Refer to @Zakon05 post that further goes into detail regarding this.
when a killer entirely leaves the hook to commit to separate chase, there is no world where a survivor will ever hit second stage with 70 seconds. An efficient team never lets survivors hit second stage in current 60 seconds while the killer is away from the hook. It is not like hook timer goes 1.5x faster or anything when the killer is away from the hook. If survivor are so concern about killer camping hook timers, why does the survivor not use Reassurance? The 10 second change is giving survivor a free mini reassurance with no downside. it is global effect.
The killer is not getting any free base perks in this update. I respect disagree with survivor getting free reassurance.
…Why would the survivor ever hit second stage? That's not an expectation at all, that's not what the win state for the killer is here.
The survivor is absolutely going to be saved before they hit second stage. That's true now, and it'll continue to be true after the ten seconds are added. The survivor is supposed to be saved before they hit second stage.
What the killer should be aiming for here is to already be close to a second down before the survivor is unhooked, and even if they don't achieve that they're still keeping up pressure if they're forcing three survivors off generators at once, even if only briefly.
I'm not sure where this idea that a survivor should be hitting second stage if you go chase someone else came from, but it's definitely wildly off the mark.
Gen speeds were fine with 80s gens and 25% max Pop and 0% basekit on kicks. Gen speeds were fine with 90s gens and 30% current Pop and 5% max basekit on kicks. Gen speeds only weren't fine with 4 gen slowdowns, or things that were effectively 4 gen slowdowns (infinite respawning Ruin+Undying without perfect RNG), and insta full gen BNPs. We hard deleted BNP's capabilities, but we couldn't do the same with gen slowdown.
Toolboxes come pre-nerfed compared to every other item in the game, due to how their bonus works. You get the % bonus for the X charges worth of progress, not X seconds. That means a 50% 32 charge toolbox is only progressing 32 charges in 21.33s (and draining it to 0 toolbox charges), or in other words, saving 10.66s. A Brown medkit takes 24s to self-heal compared to the base altruistic heal of 16sx2 or 32s, saving 8s. That means the best gen toolbox is only ~33% better at saving time than the worst medkit.
Killer gen slowdown perks were nerfed because too many sweatlord Killers were stacking 4 gen slowdown and ruined the game for the rest of us. I used to comfortably run only PR on Ghostface as my sole gen slowdown. I still do, but I used to too. If there was a unique perk buff (that only applied to gen slowdown) then that would be ideal. Something like 25%-50% more regression/longer blocked durations (respectively) if that is the only gen slowdown perk selected. That also means it could still function with Killer add-on forms of regression (for the rare few they deem 'worthy'/'deserving' of having such an add-on). Personally I don't stack Driver's License with PR, and use one or the other, but the option would be available for people.
The flaw of all Toolboxes having the same amount of charges is the same flaw of all medkits having the same amount of charges. It was a mistake, and I'd hoped we had learned from it. Medkits needed a nerf, but not the boring one we got. The Purple should have kept 32 charges, and the Green should have lost the self-inefficiencies (and remain at 16 charges). All the medkits are now pathetically dissimilar, and we don't need the same mistake to be applied to Toolboxes, especially given the (in)efficiency of Toolboxes as is. I would only agree to such a change if Sabo's were dropped to something like 2-3 charges per Sabo. Nerfing charges also nerfs Sabos, and any theoretical Toolbox nerf should only target gen progression. Nerfing Alex's Toolbox charge count was also a mistake in the Sabo rework patch.
Survivors stacking items is a bit different of an issue, and the 2v8 class mechanic is a good limiter (no more than half of the lobby can be one class). Maybe try 2 of the same class of item per lobby, although make it known if your item is 'disarmed'. Maybe I need a heal tome, and I'd need to back out to use my medkit in a different lobby. Alternatively, only allow items and characters to be changed before you ready, but that might be annoying unless we had a strictly ranked mode for that limitation, and an unranked mode without.
So what? Shouldn't killers be punished for not defending gens? Who makes a mistakes "deserves" to be punished, in every game.
If you don't think so, then killers should also have a catch-up mechanic, like Noed basekit Endgame, but I don't think you want that.
Not on all killers. The best play is still, and always be 99,999% of the times, to go back to the hook.
There needs to be an "incentive", a reward, for getting different hooks.
Problem: if they don't tunnel then survivors can immediately negate the pressure with Resurgence, and heal in 3 seconds with a medkit. So there is no option.
This seems more fair, even if I would have done different durations for the different hook phases.
Exactly, which doesn't solve anything really. It just punishes low tier and mid tier killers for no reason.
Yep.
"They fail to realise though that making the hook stages 70s will hurt killers who dont camp more than it will hurt killers that do. Every time you hook someone the rest of their team has an extra 10s on a gen before they have to go unhook that person. That's more progress than a Surge proc, for example."
EXACTLY THIS. Couldn't explain it better.
If survivors leave the teammate reach second stage, not saving them, USUALLY there is something that went wrong in their macro pressure. Which is why, imo, if that happens, the second stage should be shorter, being 50 seconds.
Now it's not even "16 seconds later they healed", it's 2/3 seconds with Resurgence HAHAHAHAHA. So to avoid it you gotta stay super close to the hook.
In comp this is LITERALLY terrible. Literally terrible. Awful change.
EXACTLY. Commodious toolboxes are still so so broken.
Alright, then you don't really know how insanely fast some generator builds make the game go.
You know what, fine....just give the killer a funny little perk that, when you hook a survivor they go directly second stage, why not. What could go wrong...
Pretty much. Yeah, why shouldn't a mistake be punished?
EXACTLY. It's just a big boost for smart survivors.
Yep.
Exactly: make Kindred basekit.
I don't know if it's a joke or not, but unironically this would actually kill camping.
Then this tells me you don't really know how the competitive Dead by Daylight scene goes on average.
With all killers, especially low tier killers with no mobility, you absolutely have to secure a second stage no matter what, unless an extremely lucky situation.
So what you say is just incorrect, I'm sorry to say.
I totally agree with this.
I'm not even a fan of comp DbD, and I find that the comp scene creates a ton of issues in normal gameplay.
Have you ever seen comp DbD and watched a whole match? Cause all of the most common complaints from killers are there: hook bombing, gen rushing, pre-dropping, and shoot, it's literally called "running to comp corner".
Being competitive doesn't make it a fun strategy to play as or against. However, since we're talking about extra hook time, comp is also one of the biggest examples of hook bombing. Survivors will literally unhook the instant the killer finishes the hook animation to keep the pressure to a minimum.
So somehow, were supposed to believe that all of these things are "being maximally efficient", except survivors somehow want their teammate to be in time out for an extra 10 seconds to give the killer more pressure? C'mon now.
Exactly, it's not proportional.
Exactly. Unless you consider camping a part of tunneling.
I disagree with this. Camping should be punished, but this is not the way.
Why can't they also make it a less efficient choice to "gen rush" so fast with perks? Or instantly heal with Resurgence? So make things that instantly destroy the killers' pressure.
Exactly. Strong swf and comp like players are just going to destroy even more. Even just 4 solos that are good.
This is unironically true: without a Kindred basekit change, this won't change. They will just crouch 10 seconds near a hook.
This won't change a dang thing for solo Q.
You won't get to the endgame in solo Q with this change.
It's an awful change because it won't actually stop camping. So not even that is going to happen.
Unironically yes, they should actually be 90 seconds to stop camping, the problem is that this would completely nerf killers to the ground of course.
EXACTLY. Playing with no perks is even more impossible now.
Now, with this change, they really messed up: as killer, you're even more gonna be forced to use Corrupt Intervention, Deadlock, Ruin, Pain Res, or No Way Out.
In a nutshell, yes 😂.
This is exactly backwards. The killer determines the gameplay, hands down. If the killer goes afk, the game boils down to "do gens and leave". The only other things survivors have to complete are things the killer provides as objectives/tasks: chase, rescue, or healing/recovery, while still doing gens.
The thing that appears to be missing here is the picture of how pressure works once the killer has a hook. What the killer wants is for a constant cycle of one survivor on hook, one in chase, one going for rescue, and the last one on gens.
If you leave the hook, you interrupt one survivor on gens to be in chase, and ideally have short chases (which is admittedly determined by skill). The rescuer will naturally stop doing gens to rescue, since, again, it's always in the survivors best interests to have a 4v1 have and not a 3v1 for as long as possible.
Doing it this way leaves at most one person on gens at all times.
If someone is camping, however, the pressure is only on the hooked survivor. The other 3, as long as they know the killer is doing nothing, will do gens. Again, this is because the survivors react to killer gameplay, not the other way around.
If you want survivors to do something other than gens, you need to be giving them something to do. This is usually the big 3: chase, rescue, or on hook, but can also be killer power (go take your pig hat off, go find the box) or even perk related (go find your plaything totem).
The competitive sene is good, because it shows what the actual problems of the game are.
Btw, it's not just those words you used, it's a lot of macro strategy, efficient chases, skill.
A lot of people actually like the competitive side of the game. Many.
" Survivors will literally unhook the instant the killer finishes the hook animation to keep the pressure to a minimum. " : This is just factually not true.
In comp, if you just rescue immediately, you will get tunneled, plain an simple.
This change may be dangerous.
No impact on non-camping killers, really?
The 10 second grace period gives other survivors time to heal or repair.
That gives you 10 more seconds to complete the task at hand.
I think highly skilled survivors understand this and know how to make the most of their teammate's time on the hook.
Doesn't this change also punish regular killers who don't camp?
Regardless of the pros and cons of camping, this is simply a survivor buff, making the act of hooking survivors for the killer even less useful.
I am concerned that this change will lead to more slagging and bleed outs.
The time it takes to pick up a survivor, carry them, and get executed will be closer to the time it takes to bleed out with this change.
Honestly, this is horrifying.
I would say this could be the case. But the same should happen with killers making mistakes, and given how much they are removing the risk out of killers kits. Id say this is very fair. A lot of the killers are losing most of the risk out of their kit, Billy's chainsaw has almost no cd and no overheat, huntress got 7 baseline hatchets, bubba has significantly lower stun on hitting something, Doctor will now have reduced shock on misses. All of this remove the punishment on killers for making errors.
Couldn't agree more.
However, what I see here on the forums most often is people who try to mimic the comp play style without having any concept of macro strategy and seemingly minimal skill. That's a common thing in any game, people will copy the "meta" even if they don't understand why it have the ability to execute it well or correctly.
But most of the time, and especially in DbD, the effective tactic isn't always fun. And since something like camping is going to be copied by killers who forget to turn their monitors on, and it's generally one of the least interactive ways to play the game, it needs all the energy the devs choose to throw at it to mitigate that passive play style.
Good change.
Not exactly serious, but I'd gladly play dbd without camping since that just means killers gets faster and stronger
Imagine if newer players can't get to secure a single kill, escape rate would skyrocket without actually affecting my games that much
It always does. Every time a mechanic is used in a match to accelerate gen speeds, I counter it by tunneling (and/or camping depending on the situation).
I despise doing it because tunneling makes chases less fun, but I do it.
I already punished gens-before-friends, I'll do it more.
And "it never happens" … you are right, everybody sees that tunneling happens less and less /S.
No, while I'm chasing one survivor, the others, far away as my opponents always do gens in parallel, will push the gens further because they have 10 more seconds.
So instead I'll break chase and go to the hook when appropriate (which may or may not be about 3 seconds later than usual) and tunnel the heck out of the survivor or ensure the next hook stage.
killer determines gameplay, the survivor decides how they want to approach reacting to said gameplay.
Not necessarily. Often, the best play for survivor is to stay on the hook. The safest spot is staying on the hook because the killer cannot tunnel survivors that are on the hook. It is why many teams tend to leave survivors on hooks, even put into second stage vs certain killers.
In truth, true gen-rushing often relies on leaving survivors on hooks in order to push generators. It is why i really dislike this change. Reassurance is powerful gen-rush perk for survivor because it exactly exploits this exact gameplay. The difference is that reassurance requires survivors to be next to the hook to trigger it. It has downside. these 10 second have no condition. it is free gen-rush with no downside.
Monstrous shrine meta incoming /s
If anything, hook stages should be extended if you were left on hook, not shortened. That would basically only mean one thing, a Killer is 17m facecamping the only doorframe, in which case they don't deserve more than their 1k. However, I can see people abusing this if there are 4 alive and 1 gen remaining, then the 7th hook is a fresh hook on the final Surv. Overall both cases would probably be better off if we didn't make an adjustment.
High tier and mid tier killers are not in a bad spot. (Not really true, medkits, toolboxes and perks are still broken, but whatever) IF you tunnel. Because if you don't tunnel, then you're screwed.
Perfectly said: "The less defence you bring, the less time you have as killer to interact with the survivor".
The more they nerf passive slowdown perks, the more killers are forced to camp and tunnel. In fact, I'd make getting the fourth stack of pain res a massive bonus, like, regress 60% of a generator, considering how insanely hard it is to hook all 4 survivors if they know what they're doing.
I don't think they intentionally made it stronger.
But even them ( I suppose) know that hook stages cannot be super long.
So if they want to reward chases, this is not the way.
The anti facecamp mechanic would need to get adjusted, because now, with 70 seconds, you can self unhook so many more times if another teammate is near the hook before second stage.
In theory it should punish hard camping, in practice it doesn't. And it will make tunneling even stronger indirectly.
Ok. Let's suppose, the killer completely leaves the hook @AmpersandUnderscore .
Then, by macro macro pressure, let's also assume they need to go back to the hook, perhaps because the closest survivor pre ran to main building, or because they instantly saved just 20 seconds after the hook.
What happens if the killer, by macro strategy, in that situation is supposed to chase who was just unhooked? Oooops, they instahealed with Resurgence. Oooops they have Second Wind. Oooops they had Off The Record also because their teammate healed them. Oooops now they also have Decisive Strike. Oooops now they use a Syringe to heal mid chase and usually the killers can't do anything in those seconds. Oooops now they have Dead Hard.
But if the killer hits them immediately off the hook, they deny most of these things, most of these perks.
So the killer is forced to do this, because if they don't they get nothing.
I meant, staying 16 meters from the hooked survivor, just outside the anti camp mechanic radius.
Also, you can always go inside and outside the radius a bit if necessary.
I don't think they wanted to make tunneling stronger intentionally.
What killers do you play the most? Because with Skull Merchant, I absolutely believe you can win with no gens slowdown, considering how much survivors either give up completely, DC, let themselves die on hook, or stop playing seriously entirely.
As you said yourself, if survivors are the objective (what does this mean?¿?) , in order to kill them fast, there's no better way than killing a survivor ASAP to force the game into a 3v1. Aka tunneling.
It will make tunneling more needed, because if you split pressure on 5/6 hook stages, before a survivor dies, that's 50/60 seconds more of survivors doing gens, before going last second for a save.
Im ok with this but the real discussion is removing give up on hook
it is as I said to @jesterkind, leaving the hook is a risk. apparently, i am playing killer wrong and should getting hit by all these second chance mechanics. while it is possible to outplay survivor multiple times, every chase is struggle if the entire team is really good.
Pain res has been constantly getting negatives changes presumably to make killers use generator defence less. goals of making killer less dependency on generator defence. balancing out camping. It is just that there has been little improvement in improving killer's capacity to leave hooks and promoting search chases.The 2vs8 mode is closest mode where they started to showcase proper changes towards anti-camping, anti-tunneling and making the game more about chasing hooks.
If only some of those changes in 2vs8 shows up in real mode like their 200% regression bonus, killers putting survivors into cages, teleporting to cages, less information for killer to tunnel. While these changes still present issues for killers like Hag and maybe trapper, they're a step in the right direction.
This change on other hand where hook regression slower doesn't accomplish much other than punish the killer.
Let's suppose the killer just goes for chases. As you said, 1 survivor is doing gens.
What do they get for hooking all 4 survivors? Apart from perks? Nothing.
What do they get for hooking all of them again, with none dying? Nothing, no kills again.
How much time has passed? Supposing a chase is very short, like 45 seconds, that's 45*8, which is enough to complete all gens.
Btw, if with mid tier killers, in 1v1s good chases on average last 2 minutes, if not even more, there's a reason: either maps are unbalanced, or you have to buff mid tier killers in chase to make them A tier.
I agree with the first part, but I don't think copying 2v8 is the solution.
Apart from the extremely oppressive Escapist class, if there are 8 good players, you are screwed as killer. Before you can reach a kill, all 8 gens are done.
As killer, instead the strat is to injure everyone with Wraith, and slug everyone. Or just keep everyone injured. It's nuclear options on both sides.
Exactly. This is another big problem.
I really agree with this: "It's not the end of the world", but it's still a bad change.
Yeah. "Fun" and memy Blast Mine. But guess for who? For the survivors. Seconds when stunned that can COMPLETELY destroy the killers' pressure and momentum. Because when killers don't find it fun to get hit by Blast Mine, and other "fun" perks that kill momentum, guess what they're gonna do? Go back to the hook, tunnel, and force a 3v1 as fast as possible.
Very well said: "The survivor can still easily hook-trade and all generator will be done". I agree.
What do they get for hooking all of them again, with none dying? Nothing, no kills again.But you're changing the argument from 'the killer should put pressure on other survivors' to 'killers should go for 8 hooks'.
Btw, if with mid tier killers, in 1v1s good chases on average last 2 minutes, if not even more, there's a reason: either maps are unbalanced, or you have to buff mid tier killers in chase to make them A tier.But in a 1v1 you burn through all of the pallets, you get to start at the shack, the survivor doesn't have to worry about running into anyone else, the survivor gets to scout out the map (more of an advantage than the killer scouting), and killer perks and powers are extremely limited while survivors still get to run things like Lithe and Resilience.
Perhaps that gameplay is more exciting than staying at hooks. @jesterkind said that he does not like the killer playing so inactively. ok what about playing more actively like injuring everyone with some of those anti-camp 2vs8 changes? I liked playing 2vs8 mode for killer. it encouraged me to play differently and more actively. the 1vs4 mode encourages opposite gameplay and now your getting nerfed for playing passively. shrug.
deliverance will be useful against proxy camping killers, waiting until last second to kobe will be powerul. I think it’s a good change but they should have focused on making the anti camp punishing for camping killers instead
Tunneling one out at the start will still be the best play, outside of that it makes camping a little bit less worth doing and it will just give even more time to be on gens completely for free. (The last point is regarded to last second saves like you already said)
I'd say it doesn't affect the game too much to be honest, but it will make pressuring survivors a little bit harder for sure.
I don't get to play Skull Merchant often, because of the survivor behaviour you're referring to. Not that it makes a difference since what I'm describing applies to every killer, but the ones I play more often are Clown, Trapper, Nemesis, and now Unknown a little bit. Of those, I only consistently put slowdown perks on Trapper, and even then you only really need one.
Survivors being the objective seems pretty straightforward to me, not sure what your confusion is there. You win by killing survivors, ergo, survivors are your objective. We're also not talking about tunnelling here so I'm not sure why you're bringing that up.
Survivors stacking generator stuff, is only a problem because 32 charge toolboxes exist. None of the survivor generator perks or addons need to be changed, if all the toolboxes are set to 16 charges. And yes, it's the same concept of medkits, where they needed to be made more similar in order to properly balance them.
And if it's ok to evaluate killer generator perks as if a killer is running a full slowdown build, then we need to evaluate survivor generator perks/item/addons as if a survivor is running a full generator build. And it doesn't matter if toolboxes were already nerfed in the past, because many things in this game get nerfed more than once.
We're basically having a huge double standard here, where we evaluate killers when they are being their most optimal (i.e. the optimal slowdown build), but then we evaluate survivors based on them being average and inefficient (i.e. just having a toolbox with zero generator perks).
Some killers are literally getting buffs. I swear y'all are NEVER happy.
case in point: first match of the day, 2nd stage first hook while 2 teammates ran around near hook; 1 was actually in chase and the other was playing as if he was injured on death hook (last guy on gen which is fine)
again, not the buff anyone is making it out to be. Majority of games will be unaffected because solo q teammates only know how to optimize inefficiency and poor decision making