Survivors need to improve and get better
There are many discussions on what is unfair for survivors but as someone that plays roughly 50/50 killer/survivor I don't see much discussion around criticizing survivor's lack of improvement. I get that DbD is a popular game and there are new players coming into the game all the time, but barring that the game has been out for many years and most of the problematic players in solo-q are not new players.
Main issue I see with survivors is they are not proactive with gens. They consistently go for easy far-off gens and 3-gen the team. Survivors have got to start learning the maps and being proactive about identifying and pressuring 3-gen locations early in the match, or in the event that there is a 3-gen, proactively identifying and helping the team to pressure different gens and force the killer to have to patrol all 3 gens. There are perks available to help out with this so "I don't know where the gens are" is not an excuse. Running around doing gens blindly is not doing you or the team any favors and in most cases you are handing the game over to the killer.
This brings up the second issue: Many survivors don't pressure 3-gen locations because they want to hide and are afraid to loop a killer. Survivors have to learn that each player in the team has to take their turn wasting the killer's time, and in addition survivors need to be taking hook states during the game, everyone needs to do this. No one is expecting you to take the killer for a 5-gen chase or 360-tech like a looping god but be proactive and learn to use tiles to your advantage, there are myriad youtube tutorials on the types of tiles and how to use them effectively as well as aura reading perks and items to help you see the killer while looping and evading. Time wasting perks like head-on, blast mine and others are also at your disposal.
Third, Too many survivors complain about being tunneled out too often, but aside from learning to use tiles better and improving your map sense and knowledge, are you also running any anti-tunnel perks? do you also take protection hits for your teammates or do you use perks or items to deny the killer hooks when they are being tunneled or do you hide in a corner?
TLDR: Too many survivors complain that the game is unfair but they don't work to improve their game by watching tutorials or run the perks needed to balance their weaknesses. Sometimes you are the main cause of your own demise during a match.
Comments
As a primarily killer player, I think we should all be able to agree this varies wildly depending on maps. GoJ and The Game have a ton of pallets a killer will pretty much always need to break, but Autohaven and a fair amount of the other forest maps? Holding W is a good way to get caught with no resources up.
I really don’t know about that. Simply holding forward after a hit wastes a ton of the killer’s time, and it doesn’t require pallets. The forest maps in particular are gigantic, and have many pallets. I think there either need to be fewer pallets on maps, fewer unmindgameable loops/pallets.
This is still nothing like the Games predrops where you just can't get to them in time, so can we at least agree on the map variability? I'm completely cool with us having different stances on this btw I just wanna see if there's some kinda common ground we can work the conversation off of.
As for forest maps, this playstyle requires such a massive waste of resources so quickly it's crazy to go for, corrupt would make this maybe one of the best things that could happen to a killer. Even without it, if there's a survivor just holding forward and throwing pallets I can A. Walk around to get to them, or B. Waste a valuable pallet at the start of the game for free, either way, that's one more thing they can't work with when the time comes.
Furthermore, most of the killers in the game already have numerous means of getting around this:
Ranged Killers get free hits with this playstyle.
Stealth killers don't give the player a chance to run in the first place.
Transportation Killers sip their tea as they effortlessly clear the distance.
etc.
We could keep going, but I don't feel like writing more tbh and we all get the point. For M1 no chase killers, i.e. Trapper and Freddy with no gens around, that's kinda why they need buffs, yeah. They're already considered the weakest characters in the game by many, it's not really a testament to how strong Holding W is if it only works on the already bad killers. The other examples are killers like Xeno, Chucky, and Ghostface being knocked out of their powers, in which case, that's just the player getting punished for messing up, which is what should happen, no? Then there's just Oni who's M1 until he gets the best power in the game for 40 seconds to make survivor life hell. It makes sense that he'd have to struggle to obtain such a powerful tool.
Overall, I feel like Holding W simply isn't a viable option in by far the most cases to be considered OP.
On Gideon or GoJ, sure.
On pretty much any other map? No. You'll find yourself dead AND out of pallets very fast
So you have no numbers, then, outside of a third-party app that varies, sometimes wildly, in accuracy.
There are four people on the Survivor side, each worth 25%. In no single match can a Killer achieve a 60% kill rate; it's either 50% or 75%. A 60% kill rate means that the average kills, over multiple matches, will be 2, with the occasional 3 or higher. A 50% kill rate, on average, will produce less than 2 kills. 60% is balanced in this context. So again, in this context, you have no understanding of balance.
Us vs. them... nice. I play killer more than survivor and want a balanced game.
The game is balanced around a 60% kill rate according to the devs. This is not something your local "killa main - monsters" decided.
I for my part, have to say that DBD pre 6.1.0 felt horrible. The worst was the period with hit validation on DH - dash. It literally made killer players quit or move over to survivor period.
Im glad this changed for the better.
Sorry but i can not resist myself and repeat this once again:
Because BHVR wants 60% does not mean anything. Its actually a good indicator that it is a very bad idea.
BHVR proofed 3 things in the past. That they are able to get amazing licenses, that their sound design is god tier and that the ballancing department is run by one summer intern.
I can get behind that. I didnt say, that I think that 60% is good. Just that its the balance they intend to achieve. If someone says, that 53% was good, when 60% was the intended balance, it is downright wrong. The intended kill rate was too low.
In terms of balancing at BHVR, I always tried to excuse some of the stuff that is happening, but with the recent decisions made to the Pig and Sadako, I find it harder and harder to defend aynthing happening.
Feedback that takes too long to be implemented, changes that nobody asks for and sometimes blatant misunderstanding of a characters / perks power level are not easily swallowed.
Depends on map, team, killer and perks.
Its callled Tbag Trauma 😄
Killrate is overall higher. Using NL as indicator is actually working in killers favour.
I don't think many survivors have the mechanical skill or dbd experience to be able to play well. The majority is just very average and are not playing to their max potential
The devs keep buffing killers for no reason when they already win most games. It's like they want survivors to just quit.
hehe-dredge main
It's fun to play against you and to use. It's a killer where the key to success is how to injure or knock down multiple survivors at the same time, so it's quite difficult to handle.
i just bonk hook teleport repeat but no tunneling that stuff suks
So you have no numbers, then, outside of a third-party app that varies, sometimes wildly, in accuracy.
Kind of annoying that this needs to be said, but...
It's something
Versus
Absolutely nothing.
You can bicker about how reliable Nightlight is, but it does compile a dataset of actual matches. Unless you have some meaningful fault to point out, you don't really have a leg to stand on, and you don't offer your own data.
Besides, go over your own experience. Does Nightlight's data in regards to the frequency of 2Ks seem all that out-of-the-ordinary?
Absolutely nothing is better than something that A) is a relatively small sample size that relies heavily on the honesty of the user and B) Has been shown to be widely inaccurate. Like I said, it's a weather vane; not something to rely on for anything other than a general sense of which way the wind is blowing.
If you think something being unreliable isn't a meaningful fault, I don't know what to tell you. Unreliable statistics are not conducive to proving a point, and they don't suddenly become reliable or worth using because of the absence of more reliable ones. "Here's some knowingly inaccurate data. I win unless you offer your own data!" I mean, really. The only data that would mean anything here is Behaviour's own data, and as you said, they don't track it. Faulty data leads to faulty conclusions, so I feel it would be better to exclude said faulty data.
You do realize that tunneling because you loosing the game because as killer you didn't pressure the gens and the looping at the same time i see so many killer just hold w and Waite for BL to get a down how about that, tiles no tile is going to save you when the killer is 15% faster than your are and BTw people act like BL is hard to get it's not you have perks to put on but guess what no one that plays killer uses haste perks because they are too reliant on how easy BL is to get and don't actually realize that as survivors trying to drop chase mid chase it next to impossible and they don't realize it their is maybe 4 infinites on all the maps combined and BL was put in place to counter infinites not help the killer player get free downs for outright failing mind-gaming , no tile is going to help no one when the killer is 10 % faster that 10% make most pallets and tiles completely null and void because almost ever tile in the game is favored to killer when they are in tear 2 BL and that take 25seconds for tear 2 NO time at all and tear 3 take no time because it legit another 10 seconds that like maybe 2 jungle gyms if your a luckey because most maps are soo stingy right now their noting on them go to corm their is noting hardly any pallets that are usable maybe 4 out of 12 the only maps right now with balance pallets is joy and meat plant that is it. killer feel that survivors have power because they actually have to do something no just relie on base kit win mechanics and most if not half of the killer player base has bosses their own MMR with tunneling and caping playstyles so of cause your are going tog et put in harder lobbied and guess what you don't belong in them people will actually tunnel right to iri 1 and them complain that it too hard well maybe you shouldn't have forced your way to a high MM in the first place you are making your own problems when you tunnel because your clearly don't belong in the MMR you are currently in
Continuing to insist on flying blind because the Nightlight data might be inaccurate just creates the same position we've been in for years. Killer anec-data being held in the highest regard.
I would also like to remind you that while I am going off data that you declare 'unreliable', you, yourself, are advocating for going off literally -no- data. How is that supposed to give any grounds for appropriate balancing? You claim that it would be absurd to balance around less likely outcomes, but you have no data to determine what actually is the least likely outcome. So what do, then?
60% is the intended kill rate, the intended average. That, right there, is your anchor point. Behaviour says they want to balance around that number, and from that number we can see what Killers are meeting that average, exceeding that average or falling below that average. By addressing the issues that lead a particular Killer away from that lighthouse figure, the average is formed within an acceptable margin around 60%.
Realistically, we don't even need to know the numbers, because we're not balancing the game. Behaviour makes changes, we give feedback, that feedback is used to bring the game in line with their chosen balance point. We don't need the numbers, and arguing balance changes based upon a third-party website that is, yes, at times wildly inaccurate (not just my opinion here), won't help half as much as people think it will.
Yes, „nothing“ is better than data from a somewhat closed community, a small specific part of the whole playerbase, that relies on voluntary data.
That is nothing to do with what you originally said. I know BHVR puts that 60% out as the benchmark, but that's not what you were originally talking about.
I recall the first post you responded to was one of me talking about the kill rate. You addressed my "interpretation" of the 60% intended kill rate, went on to bring Nightlight into it, made a "something is better than nothing" argument as to why we should use those numbers, and now we're here.
My original point hasn't changed, my supplementary points are consistent. This conversation is where it is because this is where you brought it. If you're confused by this, I can't help you. Though I will say, you are welcome to discontinue it at any time.
You weren't talking about kill rate, you were talking about balance, and using the kill rate to do it. And I specifically talked about balance and the lack of info you can draw from the kill rate.
Whether you trust Nightlight or not, provably, kill rate is a really bad metric for balance.
Ok 60% kill rate, surely you agree then that all the killers with a kill rate above 60% should be nerfed then right? If 60% is the standard then that should be the absolute max, because anything more becomes too oppressive.
First point: This is something which happens a fair bit, and whilst I can understand newer players falling for this due to learning the maps and the game, this still happens at many levels. There's this rush to complete the gens, rather than planning the best course of action. The game has veered into a faster-paced experience, but there is still the opportunity to think things through.
The second point about pressure and learning when to take a chase or when best to go for a save (alongside perks) can also be assisted by using the HUD more. A while back, BHVR made a brilliant change with the HUD, allowing players to know what's going on. This isn't used (or indeed refered to) nearly as much as it should be. With better attention this this element, it improves both coordination and chances of survival.
Final point regarding tunnelling, whilst anti-tunnel perks and such are useful, more of a responsibility should be laid at the hands of the unhooker. Unhooking in front of a killer (with the exception if they catch you offguard by stealth) is asking for it. Players need to be far more cautious when unhooking. The hooked player has a full minute on there (with the exception of Monstrous Shrine) and perks such as Camaraderie and Reassurance can extend this. Survivors need to judge when to save safely, and whilst this does have exceptions to the rule, this can be achieved far more often than it currently does.
Speed is as much an enemy as a friend.
Why would 50% killrate less then 2k on average? You just explained "average" and then the next sentence, 2k is not average? I am confused.
Slinger has almost exactly 50% on NL. Look, its all there, we dont even need to calculate to see that 50% is 2K average.
A 60% kill rate is the average. Its fine for some to be above and some to be below if the average balances out.
If the game would be balanced around this mindset, Nurse would be the next in line to recieve buffs.
Nightlight is not very accurate. Sorry.
Dont forget the insta blinds and clicking.
Okay, but what @xEa is responding to is just flat wrong. Nightlight being inaccurate makes zero difference.
Whats wrong about it? Its a fact that NL is close to reality stats, but a few percentages lower on killrates. When NL has 55% killrate on average it is usually between 58 and 60.
No, what you are saying isn't wrong. What you were responding to (Raconteurminator's post) is wrong.
Explain please? In this picture, Slinger has almost exactly 2K average. So does any other killer with 50% we have seen.
I know. I am agreeing with you.
…haven’t you yourself used nightlight before to support points you’ve made?
The big problem here is that killers are not held to your standard whatsoever. If killers refuse to get good, they get buffs. This has been a consistent thing.
Survivors are nerfed from the top. On the other hand, high performing killers are dismissed from all balancing efforts.
Bruh I play casually, and don't look at video on perk combo. Because for me that is boring. I just slap things that can either be useful. Slap stuff thats funny. Either way it either works or doesn't. I'm I the best looper? Nope, but I can and will hold my own. I don't tend to stress at this game. When I got others that already do that. So it is what it is for me
The escape rate is a mostly meaningless statistics for one simple reason. They showed that skull merchant has nearly an 80% kill rate.
Now, you can either believe that SM is by far the most overpowered killer that has ever existed in DBD (and then also try to explain why BHVR hasn't nerfed her yet, and is wasting their time on much WORSE killers like…. blight….). Or you can believe that people hate her so much, they just immediately give up and kill themselves on hook, giving her an extremely high kill rate.
Based on that, the escape statistics are meaningless, because they are including people who give up.
That works both ways though, which is why Doctor tanked from being one of the highest killrates to one of the lowest. These statistics also include bot-killers torpedoing their MMR and farming BP.
Not to mention that these statistics also separate out high MMR, where these drops and disconnects are less likely to occur.
Also also, @TheLastTreedad necro'd this thread.
Sure, i'm not discounting that. That's why i'm saying the data is basically useless.