Let's talk about Unsportsmanlike conduct and how it treats players for "killing themselves on hook".
Hi.
As you guys all know about the game rules of DBD (Tho you should check all game rules before playing any game), there is nothing in the game rules about "Survivors DC penalty avoiding" (purposely killing themselves on hook).
You can check here - https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/139-game-rules
It simply states this:
ABOUT DISCONNECTS BANS - DO NOT REPORT
Disconnections are penalized automatically by the disconnection penalty system. Please do not report people for disconnecting; no further action will be taken on these reports.
It's clear that "Killing yourself on hook to prevent the penalty and move on to the next match" should be a part of a Unsportsmanlike conduct, should be reportable, and should end up in a temporary ban if it's done on a regular basis, in terms of "Rage quitting".
Now let's move to the (imo) basic question - why? Or why it should be considered as unsportsmanlike conduct?
If some of you ever played ANY MOBA games like Dota 2, League, Smite, Overwatch 2, etc... You will find the same caterogy, but it might use a different words. Basically - Regular DC's from a match (or rage quitting), Griefing (standing afk, feeding your opponents, Interfering with your teammates game) will result in a temporary ban, which can go longer and longer after relapse.
Why DBD falls in the same category:
Aside from a killer gameplay. Survivor's gameplay unites a Team play or Working as a team. This makes the simple statement about this: By leaving a match (or feeding your opponents and etc), you as a player make the overall expirience from a match worse for other players, that you're playing with. And it should be cought by reporting this player's behaviour.
After recieving enough reports, a player who constantly violating the TOS, should end up in a punishment.
The problem I'm having with all this:
Somehow, "Killing yourself on a hook" is not considered as a reason to report. Imo it should be considered as "Rage quit". It's clear to me that this kind of behaviour is ruining the overall Impression about the game. Especially for newer players.
"I brought this game so If I don't wanna play against a legion, I can freely leave a match" - This is imo, the most ridiculous, selfish and unaware excuse that I sometimes see people bringing in this types of topics, I suppose that never played any MOBA games before, or have no morals and sympathy for any game's matches.
"We have bots now taking over a player, so it should be ok to DC from a match" - As ridiculous as previous one, the game like HotS (Heroes of the Storm), there were the same "bot replacement" but the players were still getting banned for leaving the games. Personally I think the bots are not treating the problem, even for killers. (At least right now)
This behaviour is unacceptable. You can not defend it by any means.
In my opinion, a player can freely leave (DC) from a match only with a few basic reasons:
- (Obviously) Playing against or with a cheater, that prevents players from completing a match.
- Killer (somehow) blocking in the obstacles 2 last survivors with gates are closed. Holding them hostage.
- Bugs and other circumstances that player can not control. (Getting stuck, killer's ability broke or gone and etc...)
- Server issues. That makes the match irritating to play without any control of a player. (Everyone in a match having high ping, server disconnects)
In any way, Mod's opinions are more relevant. Since they more educated in a game's TOS. But I still want to read about your opinions on that topic guys, feel free to write from your hearts!❤️
Comments
You're purposely missing the forest for the trees. Multiplayer games can and do have ways of preventing one opponent from being able to play. including the aforementioned MOBAs. Singling out weak players on the opponents team is one of the best ways to snowball.
The same goes for fighting games, where combos can deal more than half your health, and "touch of death" combos can kill you off of a single hit. FPS have spawncamping or straight up elimination (depending on the game/gametype) hell, even party games can involve ganging up on one person to prevent them from being able to play. The list goes on, but the point is that most of these things are not unique to DBD just because its an assym, and that in itself is a terrible comparison due to how cursed the genre is. How many assyms are still alive and getting updates? how many are on life support, and how many are straight up dead?
Your being disingenuous now. Nobody is saying people should be banned for doing "flashlight saves" because it isn't optimal, or that they should be banned for doing challenges.
There is no challenge in DBD that requires you to stand there and do nothing, let the killer hit you twice, down you, hook you, attempt to 4%, fail, and then let yourself die on hook.
And for the longevity of the game, this is important. You keep mentioning new players or "not good/bad" players. How do you think they feel when they sit in queue for a few minutes, get into a match ready to play and have a good time, and then their teammate just immediately hook suicides out of the match in the first 30 seconds? Do you think they are having fun? The 1 player, is ruining the game for the other 4.
Well you know, when someone in my team purposely saying "F my team I'm out", then why are they even playing as a survivor? Don't purposely ruin my matches.
It has nothing to do with "Hyper-competitive" or not.
Entitled for not liking when someone from my team DC's and makes the game misserable for me... Seems ok.
What are you talking about flashlight saves being not optimal... Ain't you just said that "You can't report people for being bad"?
Are you even watching what you're saying?=) You putting an "not optimal flashlight saves" in the same spot as DC or killing yourself on a hook. That is wrong in every aspect.
Being bad at the game and DC (suicide on a hook) is a completely different stories.
We are fine, don't worry.=)
We just exchange our different opinions.
That's precisely why I think we should remove the penalty for DC'ing and then remove the ability to miss skill checks on Struggle.
We have bots now. They're actually not bad. Currently, you are discouraged from DC'ing and encouraged to suicide on hook, which is the opposite of how we should want it to be. You should be discouraged to suicide and, well, not encouraged to DC but have it be the more appealing option of the two, if that makes sense.
And for those that may say that there needs to be a punishment, there is. You lose BP, XP and any challenge progress. I think DC's might count as a loss as well, so you'll end up getting worse teammates (other people who spam DC), in theory.
Also, as for my flashlight example, it was an example using your own logic.
So far everything has been chill
That was a pretty bad example, I'm not gonna lie. This was completely out of what I'm trying to say in this topic.=)
How in the hell... Removing DC penalty is going to cure that? It's gonna make it worse. This problem is gonna be reduced only by removing the survivors ability to 4% and removing skill checks from second hook. DC penalty should NEVER GO OFF.
That's it, end of story.
And btw, didn't I just said in my first post about bots...
"We have bots now taking over a player, so it should be ok to DC from a match" - As ridiculous as previous one, the game like HotS (Heroes of the Storm), there were the same "bot replacement" but the players were still getting banned for leaving the games. Personally I think the bots are not treating the problem, even for killers. (At least right now)
I knew already that someone gonna bring up bots, I swear to God...
Why not?
You brought it up but never gave any reasoning for your opinion.
You need to be more specific with questions, "Why not what?"
And what exactly did I brought up that never gave a reason, you mean bots?
Eh usually if im letting myself go on hook its for two reasons, the game is already over (3-5 gens still left and just two of us remain) or my team didn't bother going for the save anyway at that point they only have themselves for going down a teammate.
yesterday i was in a game where a killer came back to face camp just so i could self unhook. Later he downed me, I fully recovered just needed another player to finish the pick up and I had a dwight teabag me on the ground and then hopped in a locker as I bled out.
get used to survivors letting you down, its hard for them to bm the killer these days so they bm their own team instead.
I asked for an official response before regarding if giving up on hook is unsportsmanship and I was told yes.
I was told to even give up to give a mate the hatch is considered unsportsmanship, so I don't know what to think.
If I have to afk and it's an emergency though, like someone hurt themselves, I'm sorry but not sorry, RL comes first. Period. Not some silly video game. That's taking it way too far.
I didn't even mention that if something happened IRL in a safe reasons to DC, since it's a common sence.
Not a single game matters more, than something happening in real life. It's not even a point of any discussions. It's a nature of gaming.
And yes, as I said multiple times - "Giving up on hook just because you didn't like something about the match, should be considered as unsportsman like conduct".
It should never be ok to ruin everyones match, just because you heard Nurse's blink at the beggining of the match.
Yes, the whole removing DC penalty since we have bots. You pretty much said, "No that's bad." But never really gave anything other than that.
And that is why I think it shouldn't be a bannable offense... but a survivor shouldn't be able to instantly die on hook. My suggestion: keep second stage skill checks, but that instant death that happens after missing two in a row should not happen if there's more than one survivor standing (not hooked, in the dying state or already dead). If there is only one survivor left beside you or everyone is already down, it makes sense to be able to immediatly die to save time and/or to open the hatch as soon as possible, but not to do it at the start of the game. The first hook stage can remain as it is today, as the 4% mechanic is a fun thing that should stay.
As it is today, it's really problematic: intentional deaths on hook are a way for survivors to circumvent all the downsides of disconecting. They use a form of ragequitting that is worse than DCing (because it prevents bots from taking over), but they are incentivized to use this method because it allows them to circumvent all the downsides of DCing: the penalty and the denial of match rewards. Matches are ruined because of this every day. Players have complained about this for a long time, but now that we have bots, there's a bigger reason than ever to change this. Bots can't do their job if the player just dies intentionally on hook.
Either way, thanks for commenting here and clarifying stuff for everyone, Mandy.
My apologies for that.
My personal opinion about current bots: They are as good as they don't exist.
They are purposely missing skillchecks, they getting stuck, they bodyblocking other survivor players, and most common - they are VERY bad at loops. Basically - Now you have a "Ballast" in your team that you have to (or not) waste time saving on hooks.
And because of that, they are practically makes no difference in the outcome of the match, sometimes even make worse.
Even spectating them is just hilarious.
Me and other players that I know, even some content creators don't like bots at all. They think the same as me, that they shouldn't have been added into the game. Since it's a very poor band aid to cover "UNBANABLE" DC's.
In a HotS game that I mentioned they were even worse in terms of "Feeding the opponent". But still DCs were considered as a bannable offence. And they were very serious about that.
I think they changed the bots recently.
It doesn't happen often enough in my games for me to care this much. If people are doing it consistently in your games, maybe you're doing something that makes them not want to play with you? I don't know. I've let go once in recent times and it's because a duo were trolling me and the other solo player. I'm not playing with folks like that.
Ok.
Whats when I want to do that as killer?
Again, stop assuming things you don't know. You have no idea what you're talking about.
The criminally low amount of upvotes on this post speaks volumes about the DbD community's entitlement.
Literally every other multiplayer game highly discourages if not outright punishes people who rage quit. But because the devs put in a mechanic that allows you to "lawfully" rage quit it's suddenly completely fine the ruin the game for everyone else in the match?
Pure delusion.
You dunno that people only die ‘early’ on hook due to rage quitting.
No but they do know if the mechanic didn't work that way they wouldn't be left with a 3v1 with 4 gens up. Its not fun as killer. Doubly as survivor. I wish in overwatch or tcm or other games i could say "im not having fun let me just die instantly" but thats not the case. You qued and those games keep you in until you die for good. Or the game ends.
if you can't have fun with dbd because of that, I suggest you to play other games
Thats why I am emphasizing the "because of that" which goes back to what I said before: It's just a game, let people do whatever they want to do because at the end of the day, your life is not gonna change
They could still be left with a 3v1. People could AFK, give themselves to the killer, or sabotage the game in other ways. You can’t force someone to play the game in a way you’d like—period.
Yeah, and you know whats common about those?
People still have failed to explain to me why other games are able to do this just fine. Why can DotA force people to stay in the match? Can't they just give up? And give themselves to the enemy team? Can't they just grief their teammates? Well no, because all of these behaviors are also strictly and harshly punished as well. So again i ask, what makes DBD so special that you are allowed to ######### over your teammates?
And don't bring in the: "its asymmetrical" part, without succinctly explaining what makes a team based asymmetrical game so special that you are allow to ######### over your teammates just because its asymmetrical?
I think the silliest thing I saw, was someone saying that because DBD matches tend to be only 10-15 minutes, it's fine to let people quit whenever they want. But if someone can't commitment 10-15 minutes to play out a match, then why bother queueing up in the first place.
Too many people are coddled by how easy it is to shop for the perfect match as survivor that they don't want to have to adapt.
You can NOT force people to play LOL
Have you ever seen people defending this type of behaviour in any other game?=)
How do games like cod or tcm or overwatch get you to? Not have a mechanic that lets you leave early. And if you try to sabotage through that. They ban you. Seems pretty cut and dry to me.
If I run the killer around for a good while and during that time none of my teammates even touch a gen (yeah, I watch the HUD), then I'm out. What's the point of being the only one participating in a team of four? Now, if the four of us are having fun ignoring gens and going for boldness and altruism together, that's fine, because it's a shared thing, but selfish survivors who let everyone else do the work or only play for hatch are not worth sticking around for. MMR needs to be a bit more intelligent and filter those hide-and-hide-some-more players out so they only get lobbies with each other.
Oh, so you having fun playing with bots in your team I suppose?=)
Thank you for suggestion, let me give a suggestion in return=) : How about players will play the game till the end, and cut the "I can DC If I don't like this killer power"?
As it should be.
If they don't wanna play, they should not even q into the match. If they still q and ruining matches for everyone - it should be bannable. Since they are doing so at their own risk.
End of story.
When I was an LoL player, if you disconnected from a game for any reason, you couldn't queue up for another game until the current one finished. Now this was tied to the fact you could rejoin a game in progress.
Also I believe if you disconnect from a game in LoL or had the AFK leaver applied to you, even if your team won the game you got no rewards when it came to ranked queue.
For DBD, BHVR just needs to remove the ability to expedite death on hook and improved the current AFK crow system to apply penalties to serial AFKers. Griefing and Trolling a game is already bannable so no more action needs to be done there. If this results in people leaving, because they can't quit out of games not going their way, that's for the best.
Lmfao 😄 this made my day. Thank you 😊
The overwhelming majority of players who kill themselves on hook do so because are rage quitting. On rare occasions they do so to speed up the game when the killer has already won and is in the process of hooking everyone.
But most of the time it's these highly selfish and entitled survivors that give the killer a free win in the first place by giving up on hook. And it's a damn shame than so few people in the community have no problem with this.
F13 had no penalties.
I haven't noticed any differences in my recent matches. They are as bad as they were. And it's not even about it.
I personally don't like playing with\against bots, in a pvp game where you supposed to play with\against other players.
Not a single person I know having fun playing against AI dummys, In a game where you have to play against players.
The only correct place for them to be is practice mode.
They're worse. My last bot was a Claudette who wouldn't heal us and then hid at the killer shack AFK. 3 Crows.
My bots were very decent for a while.
Never missed skill checks, can't get mindgamed, etc etc
The difference is that if I have an issue with blinds or FOV as a killer I can run Lightborn or Shadowborn. Whether I should have to use aperk to avoid things that make me sick is a different issue is another discussion, but I am able to remedy this in some way. Hell when it comes to light sensitivity, you can choose to dodge lobbies with flashlights altogether at no cost or penalty.
As a survivor, if I get motion sickness from Clown gas, or feel ill from Plague vomit, or develop migraines from the Dredge darkness, I don't have any kind of perk I can run to avoid it. I have to suffer the ill effects from being in the match. The only option is to disconnect (penalized) or kill myself (no penalty). There's a distinct bias towards killers having ways to avoid this that survivors do not. Combine that with the fact that there's 4 players in a match that might have those valid reasons to leave compared to just one and you'll have higher count of it happening.
Short of letting players avoid specific killers or removing the DC penalty, the only solution left is killing yourself on hook.
My bots (I was a killer) were constantly making noises (notifications), failed skillcheks on healing teammates and got 1 guy sabboed by standing at the pallet. And they were keep vaulting the same little loop even after a hit.
So who's in the right here? =)
(Btw, I added some words into my previous comment to you)
They were definitely changed recently.
Bots are the best idea overall. You want the game to die out faster? Ban people for suicides, ban them for AFK'ing, ban them for running to the Killer, ban them for any behavior that seems like it could be throwing.
Make no mistake, if you ban suiciding on hook, people will AFK. If you ban AFK'ing, people will start throwing. If you ban that, they'll run to the Killer or sandbag. If you ban that, they'll refuse to unhook.
See where this goes? You can't fix this issue, all you can do is mitigate it as best you can by accepting it. If people don't want to play, you can't make them. If you're playing in multiple full bot lobbies even with DC penalties on, it might be time to look at your own playstyle because people don't DC often against me and I play like an #########.
Tl;dr people giving up is inevitable, there's no way to change it. Mitigate it via bots and work with it.
"Short of letting players avoid specific killers or removing the DC penalty, the only solution left is killing yourself on hook."
Sorry, but... If someone having some medical illness from Clown or Plague as you've said, that just simply means that this game in unhealthy for them and they should stop playing it.
The game can addapt to certain illnesses, I completely agree on that, just like we've had flashlight changes and cross with Clown.
The game can addapt, but players might not want to. Just because you have an unfortunate illness, doesn't mean that you have the right to ignore the game punishments, and be treated differently.
It may sound rude, but you can't make players to addapt to your personal needs.
Are you even thinking about how many players leaving from this game because of DC-ers? Have you even thought about that?=)
People are getting tired of this, getting tired because their matches being ruined, so what they do? They just simply don't wanna play anymore because of that.
I left 1 MOBA game because of DC and afk issues.
No, which is what blows my mind so much.
Yes, I have.
People will also stop playing when there's nobody to play with since the casual and new player experience bans half of them.
Imagine you queued up in a game of DotA. The enemy team starts grouping up after 10 minutes and starts pushing towers as a team to start taking objectives. Your team completely ignores this and just keeps on farming. 10 more minutes go by, the same thing. You are trying to defend objectives, but your team won't, they keep ignoring it, you keep pleading with them to help. 10 more minutes go by, more of the same. 10 more minutes go by, you are now 40 minutes into the game, your team is ignoring all the objectives and just passively farming and avoiding the enemy while they push into your base. 10 more minutes pass, the enemy is finally in your base and your team is still ignoring them. 5 more minutes pass, and the game ends and you lose.
This kind of thing can happen in DotA as well, and again i mention, a game of DotA even in this scenario can often last for over an hour and yet you still have to stick it out, deal with the team that you were given, and attempt to overcome the enemy team. And, if you don't, if you rage at your team, cuss them out, yell at them, feed (suicide into the enemy team), or otherwise grief your teammates, you will get a harsh ban for doing so.
So again, what makes DBD so special that allows you to ######### over your team and ragequit just because something isn't going your way. Especially when, again, a game of DBD at most is lasting probably 10-15 minutes, and a game of DotA can last well over an hour. Are you saying that you can't deal with 10 minutes of having teammates who are not playing in your preferred way when people in other games have to deal with it for over an hour?
You literally can, again this has been mentioned MULTIPLE times in this thread
All of these games will harshly punish you if you queue up for a game and:
So for the millionth time, what makes DBD so special that you are allowed to ######### over your teammates because you don't like something? The only explanation anyone has given is "because asymmetrical" without actually explaining WHY asymmetrical games are so special that you still can say "######### you teammates i'm out" and just ragequit/suicide into the enemy. There is no logical explanation anyone can give other than "i should be allowed to be a selfish #########" for that type of behavior.
Thats a BS answer and you know it, again looking at other games. Does someone playing as invoker in dota give you the right to just leave the game because you can't handle all the particle effects? If the game is giving someone such problems that is a fundamental problem with the game itself that:
A) the developers need to address
B) still does not give you the right to leave the game.
If you have a disability such that you can't play against those killers, then what you need to be doing is playing the killer role, where you can avoid those characters, or playing with friends in KYF and setting up games where people aren't allowed to play those killers. Or, simply not playing the game. None of this gives you the right to say "######### you" to your teammates and leave the game. And if it does, you need to toughen up and take the DC penalty, so that your teammates get a bot. Those killers mentioned are rare to see, and if you just DC when you see them and give your team a bot, then you'll rarely ever let your penalty get past the 5 minute mark.