Let's talk about Unsportsmanlike conduct and how it treats players for "killing themselves on hook".
Hi.
As you guys all know about the game rules of DBD (Tho you should check all game rules before playing any game), there is nothing in the game rules about "Survivors DC penalty avoiding" (purposely killing themselves on hook).
You can check here - https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/139-game-rules
It simply states this:
ABOUT DISCONNECTS BANS - DO NOT REPORT
Disconnections are penalized automatically by the disconnection penalty system. Please do not report people for disconnecting; no further action will be taken on these reports.
It's clear that "Killing yourself on hook to prevent the penalty and move on to the next match" should be a part of a Unsportsmanlike conduct, should be reportable, and should end up in a temporary ban if it's done on a regular basis, in terms of "Rage quitting".
Now let's move to the (imo) basic question - why? Or why it should be considered as unsportsmanlike conduct?
If some of you ever played ANY MOBA games like Dota 2, League, Smite, Overwatch 2, etc... You will find the same caterogy, but it might use a different words. Basically - Regular DC's from a match (or rage quitting), Griefing (standing afk, feeding your opponents, Interfering with your teammates game) will result in a temporary ban, which can go longer and longer after relapse.
Why DBD falls in the same category:
Aside from a killer gameplay. Survivor's gameplay unites a Team play or Working as a team. This makes the simple statement about this: By leaving a match (or feeding your opponents and etc), you as a player make the overall expirience from a match worse for other players, that you're playing with. And it should be cought by reporting this player's behaviour.
After recieving enough reports, a player who constantly violating the TOS, should end up in a punishment.
The problem I'm having with all this:
Somehow, "Killing yourself on a hook" is not considered as a reason to report. Imo it should be considered as "Rage quit". It's clear to me that this kind of behaviour is ruining the overall Impression about the game. Especially for newer players.
"I brought this game so If I don't wanna play against a legion, I can freely leave a match" - This is imo, the most ridiculous, selfish and unaware excuse that I sometimes see people bringing in this types of topics, I suppose that never played any MOBA games before, or have no morals and sympathy for any game's matches.
"We have bots now taking over a player, so it should be ok to DC from a match" - As ridiculous as previous one, the game like HotS (Heroes of the Storm), there were the same "bot replacement" but the players were still getting banned for leaving the games. Personally I think the bots are not treating the problem, even for killers. (At least right now)
This behaviour is unacceptable. You can not defend it by any means.
In my opinion, a player can freely leave (DC) from a match only with a few basic reasons:
- (Obviously) Playing against or with a cheater, that prevents players from completing a match.
- Killer (somehow) blocking in the obstacles 2 last survivors with gates are closed. Holding them hostage.
- Bugs and other circumstances that player can not control. (Getting stuck, killer's ability broke or gone and etc...)
- Server issues. That makes the match irritating to play without any control of a player. (Everyone in a match having high ping, server disconnects)
In any way, Mod's opinions are more relevant. Since they more educated in a game's TOS. But I still want to read about your opinions on that topic guys, feel free to write from your hearts!❤️
Comments
You could start by bringing up a game that’s an assym horror-action party. You know, something relevant.
Someone can't get banned for "feeding" in DotA unless they do it intentionally and have a repeat pattern of doing it on purpose.
Most of the games you listed have absolutely no punishment for leaving casual games at any point you please. In their highly competitive ranked modes they have punishments. DBD is not highly competitive nor does it have a highly competitive gamemode. Until a true ranked mode and casual queue are added there should be no reason to force players to stay in a match.
A thread were I agree with @Reinami and disagree with @Pulsar - feels different
I will say the idea of banning for hook suicides is wrong, they just shouldn't be a thing. This is like players bringing weaker perks, it would be hypocritical for BHVR to put something in the game and then there be any chance of players being penalized for it.
The could just remove hook suicides. Which honestly, if hook kobes never existed, would the player base be thinking 'it sure feels like something is missing.'
Or they could just remove them early in the match.
Or, if they really wanted players to have an out, they could make it an actual policy. If you are on the hook, you may DC. I wouldn't like that policy, but then we'd at least know BHVR is okay with it instead of having this backdoor DCs are allowed which punish the other survivors even more than a normal DC.
Whenever possible, if an activity in the game is something that just shouldn't occur, it shouldn't be an option. This won't solve all possible issues, but it would be an easy solution in this one.
Real Life Disconnects: No one disagrees that there are reasons you may need to leave a game. This isn't just video games. If I was meeting people for dinner and they called off at the last second because of something more important, well that's life. That's why the DC penalties have increasing stages.
Medical Issues: There are certain games that trigger my motion sickness. It sucks, especially because when I was young I didn't have motion sickness and there are games I'd love to play. I stop playing them. If they could make the game more accessible without impacting other players, great, but no one should have their experience reduced for me.
It's like Rollercoasters. I used to love Rollercoasters but can't ride them anymore. It's annoying, but if you are able to enjoy Rollercoasters, wonderful. There are plenty of other things I can do.
On You Can't Make People Play: You can definitely encourage them to. In my experience, when I rescue someone trying to suicide, they usually resume playing the match. Sure, some refuse, but most people when actually put into the game, play it.
Why aren’t the survivor queue times a hot topic on these forums? Are most people ok with their survivor queue times? Are most people getting decent survivor queue times?My survivor que times are usually instant.
I pretty much always play whichever role is getting the 100% BP bonus, which is about 75% of the time survivor. My experience, killer or survivor with 100% BP, is matched in under 30 seconds, with every now and then (1 out of 5 or so) this jumping to 1 to 2 minutes.
People killing them self on hook is a crime now? Do you hear yourself?
Don't bother responding,
I am done discussing this with you. Believe whatever you like.
If the game was more fun to play there wouldn't be a DC problem in the first place. The community and the Devs have sucked all the fun out of this game. Good job 👍
bots suck though, i just had a bot watch me die on hook as it was healing withing unhook range. They ran right up to me and started to self care instead of unhook. I am of the opinion that the bot is of no use and your still down a player. Now you can say thats the average solo q teammate and I would agree with you.
However the amount of times I've had a bot just not risk the unhook at all within range while another survivor is in chase is absurd. The fact that bots seemingly hardly touch gens and go hide in the corners annoys the heck out of me.
If they can fix bots to absolutely not suck, then I would be for removing the dc penalty. I am also of the belief the players whom choose to suicide on hook will still likely kill themselves on hook for the tiny amount of bp they managed to acquire before they get hooked instead of dcing anyway.
Re playing off-meta perks, you kind of answered why yourself: "Nevermind the fact that things are constantly being watered down and nerfed for the sake of competitive balance."
Is there really a point to playing with meta perks as a survivor anymore? Recent history has shown they'll just end up nerfed to the point that no one uses them. And it's not like there's much in the way of replacement - it's telling that most of the top survivor perks are several years old. MFT was really the only recent addition, with the exception of buffed Deja Vu which to my understanding is a temporary buff. And MFT is dead after the next update. I no longer use meta perks or those in the top 10. There's no point. I also don't throw my games though.
People shouldn't dc or suicide just because they faced the killers they don't like, so I think devs should do something about this. The unfortunate thing is that the game system cannot distinguish that kind of the people and the people who need to leave game because of the emergency.
The devs gave you their answer, they do not want people who accidentally let go to be banned, there is no way you can tell for sure that they did or did not. It is unfeasible.
Everything i mentioned is exactly how one would make it feasible. So no, they did not give an answer.
The people saying "It's just a game why care?" and "why force people to play?" really blow my mind. You're saying why care that much about a game, but you care enough about that game to come to the forums, create an account, and post comments about it. Irony much? It makes me believe these are the people who are causing this problem in the first place.
Every time you join a team or multiplayer game it used to be understood that you had enough moral decency to understand the social contract you were signing up for, otherwise just go play single player games.
I agree with the solution of removing 4%s and second stage skill checks. They don't add enough to the game to warrant the rampant sub 1 minute suicide sprees
I don't let go on hook but I also don't think people should be punished for doing so because I think it's a symptom of a larger problem. 9/10 times I see team mates let go is when they're being tunnelled. I dgaf about being tunnelled, I'll keep the killer busy easily and my team mates can just sit on gens. So you can argue that someone letting go is letting the team down (or lacking "moral decency") but I also notice that in 9/10 of those instances the tunnelled person was also let down by their team. It's not hard to take a hit for a tunnelled team mate, or attempt to take aggro. I always try but if I'm on the opposite side of the map I hope other team mates will step in and they honestly rarely do.
Maybe if more players worked on being better team mates, then other players will want to continue playing with us. As it stands anyway, I don't see people letting go enough in my games for it to make too big an impact on my enjoyment on the game. But if other people notice it happening alot then maybe those people need to question why other people don't want to play with them. You say it's a team game, yet often your team mates are the ones playing like they're in a single player game with no regard to looking out for each other. And then they expect people to consider them before moving on?
Can the game even tell which death on hook is legit or someone miss-clicking? controller died? trying to 3% legit?
I mean does the DC penalty even know if it's because a survivor dc'ed on purpose or internet failure? Cause I've had many instances where my game crash/wifi goes out and it disconnects me but still give me a DC penalty on top of it.
The easiest way to circumvent this is to remove the skill checks from the second hook stage. This removes the suicide option entirely.
Of course, if someone doesn't want to play then, after being unhooked, they'll either run to the killer for a quick death or remain motionless until the crows start flapping around enough to annoy a killer to end it.
However, I believe refusing to play the game is against the rules and would work as a bannable offence, which would work for survivors who just remain motionless. Running towards a killer to die won't be because that could be excused as a skill issue, so then it would be down to the killer to floor them and maybe choose to leave them to bleed out (if they wanted - there is no obligation to do so).
Therefore, I'll conclude by saying DBD has left a mechanic in place which deliberately causes frustration. I say this because it has been mentioned ample times to change the second stage hook to revert this - a perfectly reasonable request - yet they have chosen not to do so. This would make things much clearer in terms of what is punishable or not, yet has been ignored.
1) Well, DUH
2) How many asym games are still alive or with a big enough player base? That's what I thought. (See 1)
No they gave you THEIR answer. Which is that they dont want people getting banned over what could have been a legit accident. What I mean is like it or not or provide any logic you want, they want it this way and it looks like it is staying that way so you are just gonna have to deal with it.
A few things: Now that bots are in play there shouldnt be a DC penalty. Why? Cause a person who killed themselves on hook is only choosing this because they dont want the DC penalty. Now maybe keep the PIP penalty but not the time penalty, up for debate.
Secondly, killers can be a problem as well. Normally (in my matches anyway and I assume most) killers are trying for the 4k, they don't care about survivors rulebooks or them having fun, etc. But like magic a lot of the times when a survivor tries to get out of the game the killer switches into "I'm the survivors friend now" or They begin to actually think they're a real life killer and the objective is to torture by slugging rather than hooking to win.
Lastly, not all suicide hooks are created equal. I for instance have a lot of hours so I can tell real quick in soloq what type of teammates I got by certain subtle things, like are they doubling/tripling up on a gen often? are they overly altruistic? are they just following the killer around with a flashlight contributing nothing? How quickly are they going down at strong loops? etc.
Point is there's a number of reasons players may suicide on hook and not just a "rage quit" I find this to be apart of the game in soloq anyway, soloq is terrible, so I don't fault players for that and some people don't have friends (imagine that! a loner gamer with no friends, so rare right? lol).
You can play customs if you only want to play with bots. No need to remove the D/C penalty for that.
The DC penalty absolutely NEEDS to stay because having a bot instead of a player is still detrimental to the team and can still ruin games, just not as much as a hook suicide because that leaves absolutely nothing behind. People are killing themselves on hook to avoid the penalty? Remove that option from them. Come on, the penalty is really low at first, if someone is going to stop playing because there is always a penalty when they ragequit, maybe they already shouldn't be playing to begin with.
Killer not caring about a non-existent rulebook is not a problem. A killer LEAVING the match and immediatly ending it with the fun of all the other players is a problem, but the killer has to leave the game normally and take the penalty, while survivors have a way of circumventing this.
Not all hook suicides are created equal? That is true because there is another reason for a player to SOMETIMES want to die as fast as possible: giving hatch to another player. That's why the instant death on missing hook skillchecks should only happen if there is only one survivor left standing. Otherwise, it's either a technical issue or a player wanting to quit the game. If you want to quit the game everytime you notice you've been paired with a weak team, that's on you, not on the game, and you're ruining the match for everyone else when you do so. If everyone decided to leave everytime they started to lose with no penalty whatsoever, it would be hard to ever finish a match.
Oh, but players might not be liking a match and want to leave? Fine then, use the LEAVE GAME option and take the penalty. You choose to leave, you get a penalty, it increases if you try to abuse it, as it should be. The penalty exists to give players an incentive NOT TO LEAVE. The bots exist to reduce the damage caused when a player leaves. Both are necessary, but the intentional deaths on hook give players ways of circumventing BOTH this measures, which shouldn't happen. Seriously, I've never seen any other game where part of the community acted as if people who ruin matches by abandoning them were poor victims just because they would need to wait 5 minutes for another match (the first DC of the day is not even that, it's less than a minute).
I've already commented my suggestion to fix the issue, so I'm quoting it here instead of typing it again.
I like killers will camp, tunnel, slug and then say I bought the game I can play however I want. Sorry but same goes for suciiding on hook its a game mechanic. I understand prideful survivor mains not liking this, but killer mains complaining about it? LOL
Sure remove kobe, deliverance, anti-camp kobe when proxy camp, tunneling and slugging is removed. There will be far less ######### on hook then.
In most cases a survivor CANT suicide hook and get out of match, as I explained someone will usually save them (one of the rare times a soloq survivor will make it priority to save them), then the killer will slug them if they keep trying to get out of match.
Giving someone the hatch LOL. Killers pretty much always slug for the 4k another broken mechanic of the game thats not talked about it enough. Why yes one survivor can finish multiple gens in theory its not practical whatsoever, unless theres just one left. It makes it where killers only need to kill2 and slug 1 to get a 4k, instead of straight up kill 4.
"you notice you've been paired with a weak team, that's on you, not on the game" thats not entirely true, it is on the games MMR to at least some extent.
Other communities penalties systems arent as steep, they have like a peak of 5 minutes not like 3 days. Also these games are more balanced and dont have OP comp strats that baby killers can use basekit without skill vs soloq survivors for 7 years and counting.
If you want to play by the game by quitting out of every match you are in, you can do that easier by not queueing up in the first place.
Everyone has there own version of trying there best and different nuance to how they like to play the game. I'm not talking about those people who try their best to win, but then see that "oh it's just me and 1 other survivor and theres 4 gens left. Might as well go next." As long as you try that's great. Whether you're tunneled or not. If you use the excuse of "I don't like the way this killer is playing" or "my teamates are noobs and need to get good" to justify killing yourself on your first hook, then the only games you're going to play out are when you're just completely dunking on the killer.
Also, this mentality will completely kill any future growth. If you get queued up with teammates who are brand new to the game or very low hours and don't know to take hits or split gens or loop properly. Yeah, they're going to suck. We all do when we're new. But instead of making a competitive match out of it and trying to take charge as the experienced player, you just say "oh well, teamates suck. Went down before 1st gen, gonna suicide hook now." Then those new players are going to get slaughtered every game and probably just write off DBD as super imbalanced and never get into it.
As for me as a player, I try to be super gen focused and smart about altruism. Being honest, I suck at looping and try to balance learning better pathing by taking the chase and also knowing when to let better loopers take it to increase my teams odds. I try to play both sides equally. But more than worrying about how my teammates or the killer plays I end every match thinking what can I do to improve. I think that is honestly the thrust of my first post. People should be more introspective about themselves in general.
But hey, it's a video game and I know that's a big ask. But if people are interested enough to read the forums for information and discussion maybe they're interested enough to work on themselves at some point *hope*
"No way to prevent this," say developers of only game where this regularly happens
Camping, slugging and tunneling is playing with strategies you want to play. Hook suiciding is literally STOPPING TO PLAY and leaving a team with one less player. They are not equivalents in any way. You're just making up false equivalencies now to try and defend the undefendable. If someone wants to login into matches just to leave them immediatly every time, then they shouldn't be playing.
And when did I suggest removing self unhooks? Did you even read my comments?
Someone will only stop a player from hook suiciding if they are already beside the hook when it starts. It's insanely common for survivors to be away from it when it happens, then the hooked one can often die before any survivors reaches the hook. This happens EVERY SINGLE DAY. There's no proof survivors are near the hook "most of the time". Oh, but your argument in favor of hook suicides now is "sometimes it can't happen"? Don't worry, if that's the case, the solution is to make so it can NEVER happen.
"Killers always slug for the 4K" is just a lie. That happens sometimes, but it's far from being ALL times. I don't even think it's most of the time. But I like that you try to argue that dying to give hatch is not needed, because you're pretty much giving reasons to remove hook suicides entirely.
And understand for once, being paired with a weak team doesn't justify leaving the game. If you're going to DC everytime your team starts to lose, that's on YOU, not on the game. YOU chose to leave a game for a silly reason, you get the penalty. No one is forcing you out. One of the reasons the penalty exists is to stop people from abusing DCs like that.
Other games having penalties with only 5 minutes peak is another lie. There are games that lock you out of matches for WEEKS. Besides, you only reach "3 days" DC penalty if you leave lots, lots and lots of matches. If a person takes such a penalty, they deserve to take one, because it means they have been frequently leaving every match they can.
Either way, the DC penalty is important for the game's health. DC's used to be insanely more common before it was implemented. People wanting to leave just because they are not winning is a great reason for it to exist. Now it just needs to take one step further and prevent hook suicides, so the penalty can't be so easily circumvented.
what exactly is a bannable offense in relation to unsportsmanlike play, if any?
I feel like anytime I submit a report I get the usual 'this is not a bannable offense' response; like what else does the rep think a Ghostface is doing when he downs me as the last survivor, picks me up & drops me in front of the hook, and then teabags me til I bleed out?????
That sounds more like griefing than unsportsmanlike play.
"THATS THE SECONDARY GOAL, THE PRIMARY GOAL IS TO GET THEM TO FIX LONG BROKEN MECHANICS, NOT USE BAND-AIDS."
So you're saying you're fine with the current state of the game and the current community being ruined by unsportsmanlike conduct so you can strong arm the developers into fixing the game to fit your vision of it? Not saying your vision of the game is wrong necessarily, but being a scumbag to your teammates to "teach the devs a lesson" is not the way to advance the health of the game. That's what feedback like this is for.
"Also, my soloq teammates suck so i kill myself on hook, go next is same as I don't need to learn killer just camp, tunnel, slug."
So you advocate for for that style of killer gameplay? Because you've just linked the two yourself
Edit: typo
Skill checks in dbd are like "scratch your nose, I dare you"
Back on topic, I personally see no problem with people being abke to let go on hook. Yeah it can kind of suck if they do right at the start on first hook, but it is their match and their choice to do so. Much as it is my match and my choice to effectively throw trying for a third blastmine proc in a row.
Also for me personally I will always hang on if there is a reason to do so, but if the match is obviously lost I'll let go for two reasons. First it's a recognition of gg, wp you won and secondly I can just go next again quicker. Another small thing is if you're hanging in even whilst the last person is in chase, ypu're blocking any chance of hatch for them.
Okay, a lot of these stuff you wrote is just nonsensical ranting that have nothing to do with what I said to begin with, including the classic "one side hard, other easy" angry comments we see on the forums all the time, and some of them have been written so badly it's hard to understand. I won't bother with those because they don't even include actual arguments.
I only read OP's initial post. If I'm playing against a Sadako that's slugging so they can watch the choppy animation, I'll try and get grabbed on a generator or out of a locker near a hook and get out of there as fast as possible. Slugging isn't against any arbitrary homemade rules but it's unsportsmanlike by way of poor game design.