Have the developers ever actually stated how they want killers to play the game?
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So, reading the PTB notes and I see the change to Deja Vu:
- We have noticed growing concerns surrounding excessively long matches caused by 3-genning (Killer defending a cluster of three generators). We are working on a long term solution for a future update to limit how effective this strategy can be. However, we recognize that Survivors need more options at their disposal right now to combat 3-genning. With this in mind, some adjustments have been made to Déjà Vu: The perk will now reveal the auras of 3 generators which are in close proximity to one another indefinitely (previously for 30/45/60 seconds at the start of the trial and everytime a generator was completed) and grant a 4%/5%/6% repair speed bonus on the revealed generators (previously 3%/4%/5%).
So 3 genning is now bad? Then why do maps like suffocation pit actually exist? Why did the developers release the knight and then the skull merchant and now another killer with seemingly strong 3 Gen potential. Is this just due to complaining from survivors? Because the developers have made decisions for months (years) which suggest they’re fine with the game being played one way, only for enough moaning to cause them to try and counteract the game design they themselves implemented.
I honestly don’t understand anymore how the developers want killers to play the game. Is it just to “have fun”? Enjoy chases and don’t care about macro strategy or winning? Don’t use slowdown perks as they’re all mostly pretty trash?
I do agree that 3 genning can be tedious, but the solution is not removing that ability without changing other things like map design.
Comments
Forcing a shorter match will only make more people 3 gen. Some people won't do that strat right now because it could lead to excessively long matches, and even the killer doesn't want to bother.
If you told people 'hey, you know that easy 4k strat? It's at most 20 minutes now.' you will absolutely get more people doing it.
This also runs the risk of reducing the match timer so much that 'excessively avoiding your objective' has no meaning, so literally anything that involves deliberately wasting time might not be even bannable anymore. That's a whole problem you don't want to invite without serious consideration.
I don't think you actually read what I wrote.
I used the word authority and not influence for a reason.
And refusing to participate in normal gameplay whilst holding the game hostage is also bannable.
What's your point?
Sure, but that's a problem with map design, not a killer's "ego", which is the point i'm making. It isn't egotistical to play to win.
Forgive my ignorance, but I am having trouble seeing how increasing map sizes is needed. The maps may have their own unique distance, depending on size. It would at least stop the spawns that happen so close together and in some cases the players have to be more map aware too.
Rework the killers and maps. Don't buff perks. This is my simple take on "3gen killer"
survivors can break a 3 gen or put themselves in a situation where they can die. They do not have to remain in the game, they have ways out.
in your scenario the survivors if they're the last two left the killer has no recourse and can't do anything about it.
there is a massive difference and you know it.
So as Trapper or Hag I can't go into Sanctum of Wrath, place all my traps on one side and just defend that side of the map and run them into my traps?
"Survivors can throw the game and leave if they don't like it"
"Killers can throw the game and leave they don't like it"
for the killer to leave in this instance you mean eat a dc penalty.
again, you know its not the same.
It’s not that deep. Calm down. You’re taking this way too personal.
I mean, depends on the DM.
I've had some that refuse to hook people and will repeatedly drop them after they give up.
Replace them (killer mains) with bots. 🥱 It would be more engaging than dealing with campers/tunnelers anyway.
bots I'm sure get boring,survivor bot are one thing but killer bots I'm sure would get boring.
I can escape 8 times perkless with survivor for the power move trophy on both ps4 and ps5 then survivor not that hard.
this was solo too
They don't want to limit creative plays... to a point
Camping, Tunneling, Slugging aren't creative
Chases are creative... so they will push that (while breaking and repairing everything)
-"If the intent is to have the Killer patrol the entire map and be "roaming", as you write and I suggested in the original post, most Killers need a massive overhaul, as this simply is not possible beyond the lowest levels of play."
This is the sad truth. If you want a killer like Trapper to be viable on large maps then they need to be something stupid like 150% move speed out of chase.
-"Balancing around the top percentage of your players is a sure fire way to kill a game"
Dont forget that killers actually need to be having fun to continue playing. Most of the changes over the game's lifespan focus on the idea of survivors having fun with little thought for the killer. Things are fine if you play one of the top 5 killers but everything else kinda sucks.
I’m not talking about survivors vs killers. I’m talking about balancing the game around the average player and not someone with 5k+ hours.
I'm not one to camp and certainly not 3 Gen, but with the way these things are being handled on both sides, I get the feeling that soon, the "intended" way to play DBD, is going to become the only way, because it will be enforced, rather than encouraged.
Whether that's going to be a good or bad thing will depend on whether you enjoy that or even can do it with any degree of proficiency.
Exactly.Exactly.
someone gets it wish the dev did.
The 'chase' is the pvp part of the 1v4 PvP game. If you aren't playing to enjoy the chase, what are you playing for?
Kicking gens? Holding a 3 gen for an hour?
You don't want to mind game at a loop, or have the survivor hold w away from that loop either. That basically leaves griefing as the 'fun' part.
I'm genuinely curious why someone would insist on playing a pvp game if you are actively saying the pvp part isn't fun in any capacity.
You’re missing the part where as the power role one‘s fun comes from subjugating others. Denying other players the ability to play is what really makes killer mains come alive. That’s why they do it. Over and over again. And that’s why they’re railing so hard against BHVR stepping in to stop that.
I can’t speak for the person you are talking to, but I think I know what he is saying. DBD is fun when there is interaction on both sides, not when the killer is forced to run structures/pallets with no mindgames. How could you expect the killer to enjoy chasing someone they can’t catch? This is also why camping/ 3 genning is a popular strategy: most chases simply aren’t worth taking. Emphasize more mindgames and killers will complain less.
I have a hard time believing that.
There will always be some complainers, but I personally would be much happier. As it is now, I have very little fun playing most killers.
Here’s the issue. The chase for killers needs to be quick in order to win. So you cannot really enjoy the chase. Because enjoying the chase is counterintuitive.
Survivors want long chases because it’s fun and because it means they will win the game. Killers can have long chases but they will not win the game if they do. This is a fundamental dilemma in the game. Long chases are too punishing for killers to be able to enjoy them.
I think it having fun killing survivors with are favorite slashers from horror movies.
I miss the horror and scare part of this game why i still play jump scare myers or what ever killer that can.
You can't have the game be stupidly broken when we look at what the very best players can do. You must take the best players in mind and the worst players in mind to make sure neither side if having things too easy or too hard.
This game currently really doesn't care if the "good" players abuse mechanics but that's just as bad as noobs getting stomped.
There’s a lot of conflicting advice on how a Killer “should” play, they are supposed to chase survivors, but when they complain of long chases due to Survivors chaining loops or structures, they’re told to drop chase and go pressure other Survivors and repeat the whole process again. They haven’t made any progress in their objective while Survivors have been cranking gens the whole time.
Any Killer player with some basic map knowledge would know it’s not worth to chase someone into a strong area when the gens they are supposed to be protecting are on the other side of the map. So it would be logical to defend an area with a larger spread of gens aka 3 gen, but I guess people will just call it “lazy” or “unfun”.
It seems more like your average Survivor wants the Killer to do dumb stuff and play the game their way, but when the Killer has a brain and refuses to play along, people start gaslighting the Killer for playing smart.
The chase is the gameplay, man, what else is it supposed to be? It can't be a hide-and-seek type game, there's a reason it stopped being that so quickly. Players can and will find ways to keep themselves alive longer, and since the chase element is the more active element and the element a majority of the game's built around, that part makes the most sense to focus on.
Also, sure, the car loops on Haddonfield do suck if your killer's power doesn't interact with it, but... by "that stupid tractor" do you mean the harvester on Coldwind maps? Because that's a good example of a tile that's actually played around by both sides. The killer can swing to get across the other side of the vault, or double back to catch the survivor on the fall, that's not an example of a bad tile.
Let's say we turn back the clock to pre-release DBD and decide it'll be a hide and seek game, instead of what it ended up being so quickly after launch. Do you really think a game where four out of five players are spending a majority of the time only staring at a generator or crouching in some grass is gonna be that fun for more than like, three days? Or that it wouldn't get dull trying to ferret out survivors from super dark maps with tons of super thick grass? I know I try to avoid talking about the term fun, but there's really no other term for it here, there's very little active gameplay. On both sides, the action comes from chasing down survivors, searching for them would get super boring super quickly, you can see that from how games with super stealthed survivors stretch on forever and aren't that engaging on live right now. In this hypothetical version of the game, the maps would be built completely different so looping can't happen (due to the chase element needing to be de-emphasised even compared to the original launch version of the game), so there'd be much less for either side to do.
You keep harkening back to some "original" game, or "before" the way we are now, but when are you talking about? These changes all started within a year of DBD existing as far as I'm aware, at this stage it sounds like you just don't like Dead By Daylight.
- "The chase for killers needs to be quick in order to win. So you cannot really enjoy the chase. Because enjoying the chase is counterintuitive."
Long chases would be fine if generators took like 2 minutes base.
That's kinda my point tho. The chase, no matter how long, doesn't matter in this case. The winning is the only part that you or they are saying is fun.
So go play gen kick simulator 2023 as a PvE game and enjoy 100% win rate.
Edit: autocorrect
What changes? Everything since 2016? Because that's a hell of a statement to make, especially considering how many changes in the game's lifetime have been explicitly geared towards the fun factor of killers.
That's why I'm asking you what period of the game you're talking about, because the stuff you're describing has been what the game has been built around for a long time at this point. Even at the game's launch, the chase was still a big element from everything I've seen, it was just meant to have more tense hiding between chases. That obviously didn't pan out and the game very quickly found its actual identity, but even that happened ages ago now.
You want a recent one?
Locker saves removed because Killers didn't like it.
Chases being boring and making me feel hopeless is the reason why I can really only play Scratch Mirror Myers. No chases, only spooks.
When I play one or two matches on other m1 killers i immediately go back to Myers or Survivor.
Not all 3 gens are intentional by survs.
Good Hag players no to setup their web of traps neara 3 gen and defend it from the start.
However hag cannot defend indefinitely as well as skill or knight. But still the point is valid.
Trapper mains too.
So if we’re taking away 3 gen then buff slow killers.
Cant just buff survs and not address killers.
So taking into account how miserable those locker saves could make killers feel had absolutely no impact on the enjoyment of killers? What about the various changes to DS and recently DH? Not geared towards what most killers want as it technically wasn't needed since it didn't break the game? Needed and making it fun for killers can fall under the same category.
Lets throw something from the ptb notes. Pyramid head can soon inflict torment with punishment. Is it needed? Nope. Does it make him more fun to play? For us its atleast a yep.
Uh, yeah, it made my experience better as a Killer. Were those Survivors gonna win? No. Did it feel fun to play against? No.
That was a change made entirely because Killers felt like it was unfun to play against.
I do not find it fun because I am not challenged often anymore.
The games where I feel like I'm genuinely being outplayed and there's an opportunity for improvement are few and far between. The last one was a week ago against 3/4 (i think) members of Team Misery. They challenged me greatly and I felt like I was learning.
Since then, not a SINGLE genuinely challenging game where people had answers for my gameplay.
It's hard to want to continue to play when I'm just not getting any resistance.
How often 60 minute games were the issue before BHVR released Skull Merchant?
Sounds like you should stop playing Killer pubs too if it’s not challenging for you anymore.
Holy Victim Mentality Batman!
Lets take these one at a time.
Camp - 16m, so this only affect facecamping, which many maps are designed in such a way that you can still pseudo-facecamp at 17m, as that is the closest point to reach the hook. Plus the rate of the unhook bar wasn't even mentioned yet, it could be 10-30s within 1m, we don't know. The only valid complaint here is if it works across floors, which is more a flaw of the maps than this concept.
Tunnel - Killers can't tunnel because they lack the ability to count to the first double digit, and had DS hard deleted (may as well be at least) from the game. As Dr. Evil would put it "Riiiiiight."
Slugging - The timer last mentioned was 45s. Mathematically, even with an Oni downing the entire team, he still has time to hook each of them. So this only counters intentional bleedout or otherwise excessive slugging. Non-issue.
Perk to counter powers - There should be a basekit method of addressing each Killer's power. Would you want to load into a match and auto lose because the Killer picked Billy-the-Kid, and you didn't equip the "bullet proof vest" perk? Might as well quit on the spot if you auto-lose. Luckily that isn't the case, so quitting isn't needed.
10s gens still genrush/Gen Regression nerfed - Usage of the term 'genrush' is a flag for the unironic response 'git gud skill dif'. I had 1 match with 3 BNPs, and that didn't account for the worthless Claudette attempting Flashbang saves (giving free hits in the process, adding healing slowdown), nor the basement diving throwing Surv (visible from aura perks). Heck, I ran 0 gen delay Sadako with STBFL, Nurse's, Sloppy, and Deathbound and won 3/3 matches earlier today. To be fair, I brought Flans, so they might have not sweated as hard, but each match was ultimately won through them getting greedy, and me capitalizing on their unhealed keisters getting snowballed down. Forcing Survivors to react to pressure is the key to victory. If you can't provide pressure, figure out how to. To be fair, if someone predrops every pallet on The Game/Garden of Pain/Borgo, you aren't going to win, although those matches are few and far between (both the maps and the comp dropping combined). Even then, Pop is getting buffed, and Eruption's Regression never got nerfed. Also PR got buffed prior to the 7th hook, and most times someone dies by the 7th hook, so you get the help when you need it most.
NOED/endgame nerfs - Don't know where this is coming from. Personally I wouldn't mind basekitting NOED as long as no one is dead by endgame. Taking the perk would just keep the hex in the event of a pre-endgame death, and maybe shrink the reveal radius/prevent it from showing up if no one is dead. Even then most endgame perks are met more with annoyance (NWO) than 'nerf nao' cries.
Killed 'early' - Your definition of 'early' seems to be instead 'at all'. I would say an early kill is fewer than 6 hook actions, maybe states. 3 hooks on 1 person would be an early kill imo, and 5 hooks total with a kill would equally be an early kill imo. I aim to hook each player at least once before caring about killing anyone, unless I'm map offered against or feeling the pressure.
Decide 'when to win' - Killer still has agency, open the gates yourself. Heck, the only time I couldn't was because I ran against a cheater that fake hooked himself in front of the gate switch. If they waste time they lose instead. Easy problem currently solvable.
Slugging vs Exit Gate clicky clicky teabag - Again, agency issue. Slugged Survivors can't do anything when being purposely bledout, but the Killer can force Survs to leave or risk getting hooked. I personally clean up pallets/breakable walls for extra BP in those cases.
Hit on hook vs flashlight/teabag after pallet stun - I don't care and find it funny on both ends. My opposition was so inclined to waste their time, and leave themself at a disadvantage (slowdown from hit recovery, or less time running away from the pallet). I think people only care about the facecamp hit on hook, which is more annoyed at the facecamping than the hitting on hook. It sucks knowing 'just do gens' is the proper counter to facecamping, then seeing your team run at you for the rescue just to be tunneled back on hook 15s later.
Killer win = unfun toxic - Then you complain in the same post Survivors doing gens lets them win which is unfun and toxic. Hilarious lack of awareness. Even then its clearly false hyperbole.
Things specific here not covered above.
Can't tunnel at all - I've only seen people be truly annoyed or frustrated by being Deep Wounded the milisecond off hook and/or intentionally tunneled from the onset of the unhook. Everyone bodyblocking or who did a conspicuous action responds more with a "its a fair cop" ala the Monty Python witch.
12 hook - I don't think it should be forced, but encouraged. I would add a basekit lesser Grim Embrace that only activates while everyone is alive, and can even activate twice. If you get both GE procs, then unlock basekit Moris with bonus Sacrifice BP. I got a 4k rings much different than I got 4 basekit Moris. It adds extra challenge for extra BP. I would similarly add a White Glyph basekit equivalent after all chests/gens/totems are done, for the Survivor equivalent extra challenge for extra BP.
Gen Regression nerfed - Only the unearned regression is nerfed, earned regression is still strong, and in some cases better.
3-gen - As mentioned in the thread, only intentional from the onset 3-genning is sought to be targeted. I think a decent idea would be after the 4th gen pops, the first gen 'uncompletes' itself. This gen can be redone at half speed (180s), and has an indicator for how many Survs are currently working on it. After 10 minutes (from 1 gen remaining), the remaining gens also 'uncomplete' themselves with the same rules, in case the gen was an unintentional 4-gen, causing the same problem as before.
TP+Stun if hook hit - False narrative to make the opposing side look ridiculous, when no one actually is suggesting this, making this assertion the ridiculous one.
New genrush perks - I only saw 1 perk actually increase speeds, being Gabriels Toolbox reload if 4 greats are hit while holding an empty box. Friendly Competition loses time compared to the time you have to waste cooping compared to soloing gens. I am hesitant about the new perk, but since I rarely see BNPs/juicy Toolboxes PLUS BTL/Hyperfocus/Stakeout, I think it will only be an issue when a new gen completion tome comes out. Too few people have fun exiting the gates faster, they prefer to get a good chase, or get some BP, or get some pips by doing a variety of gameplay actions instead.
4-man SWF for 50+ perks - How many SWFs honestly play like a Hens styled sweat squad instead of AFK During Campfire styled friends goofing off? Every SWF I play against trolls each other more than tries to win at all costs.
10s gen - and yet hook timers were unadjusted, empowering all forms of camping, not just face.
Teabag = BM - I would only consider the lack of agency insults BM. In any of those situations does the Killer player lose agency? Nope, unless it was a cheater with the 5 minute stun. Did the killer do the wswsws mid match before hooking, then that equally would not be BM as the surv team can still do gens, and the 'BM' only hurt the chances of victory of the person doing it. Only if they are doing it while bleeding the last Surv out intentionally would I consider it BM.
I'vs tried to get into comp
The massive overhaul of the Hatch, multiple map changes to make extremely broken setups far less common, the adjustment to DS to account for Conspicuous Actions, both reworks of Dead Hard (though the first one was more of a balance thing, the second one was about enjoyment), the Adept/Merciless Killer changes, and killer-specific changes that aim to make the whole roster more enjoyable by fixing very specific issues with any one killer.
That's just off the top of my head, if I went and looked into it I'd find a lot more.
Also, I may never say "hell yeah" about Ruin, but I've definitely had other perks activate at clutch moments and been very satisfied with it.
And ultimately, yes. Even when trying solely to win instead of doing challenges or relaxing, I find most killers fun, and the killers I don't find fun are almost all actual personal preference rather than game flaw issues. For example, I don't like Nurse and Spirit, I just don't like how they play, but nobody in their right mind could claim they aren't strong or fun in a general sense.
Because if you chase everyone for 2 mins each, you can win. They can't. There are no more pallets left. How will they do their gens? You just made the whole map a deadzone. Maybe if pallets respawned then survivors wouldn't fall off after 1 is dead and the map is used up. Then you'd get more chill games as killer.
Of course killers chill when playing survivor, you just forgot to tell us that you don't care about winning as much when playing survivors as you do as killer. Or are you gonna tell me now you run Solo survivor, Left behind and Low profile?
The implications of each is that killers fun had no impact on any of the decisions made or has made the game fun for that side.
And we responded to this despite not typing it because we dislike (as in reaaaaly dislike) how lately everything we read feel like nonsense.
Yes, having locker saves removed definitely made it better and more fun.
As for the pH, you didn't specify in general (that we saw anyway so we may have missed it) but it's a change that's geared towards the fun of a killer.
no I never used those perks I do use many survivor builds and I do fine in solo.
btw if I chased each survivor for 2 min I'm sure I lose.
You would in this state of the game, but when killers ask for survivors to chill and interact that means survivors chasing the killer, with flashlights. Ain't no way survivors are winning this game.
It's not that hard to understand, if survivors play around wanting to be chased and stuff, they cannot come back from it. A killer having no deaths by EGC can come back and end up with 3k-4k. The second scenario is more common than the first.
Right now killer has comeback potential at all stages of the game, survivors don't. Once they lose 2 people they can only tie or lose.
You do fine in solo, how about your team? Do you get out 3 of you as consistently as you do fine or do you refer to you individually. Cause you escaping and everyone else dying isn't a win for your team. Killer won that game.
Tbh when there are three survivors remaining and 3-5 gens they’re probably going to die. I see them struggle sometimes with even 2 gens remaining.
Generally, as Killer, if you can get someone out before there are 2 gens left, you just win off of that.
All this topic has made me realize is.
I want a new game mode where the survivor objective is to survive. Instead of doing gens the gates are locked until the time ticks down. once the time limit is reached the gates are powered and the end game collapse is triggered.
Killers role is still the same.
This entirely eliminates the boring hold m1 sim survivors hate ( no one likes doing gens lets be real) and it eliminates gen rushing. Games will now have an actual max time limit.