Winning without tunneling at high MMR is near impossible
There is a mathematical problem in DBD. Gen times are simply too quick, even excluding genrush perks, items, or addons. It takes an aggregate of 450 seconds of gen work to pop all gens, or 112.5s per survivor. Even assuming perfect conditions for the killer, a survivor team that splits up on gens against a killer that tries to 12-hook then, even with 20 second chases every time, the math still favors survivors. Survivors are simply too efficient. There is a reason why 3-gen 4-slowdown is such a meta strat right now, along with tunneling someone out early: it's because it is near impossible to win consistently without this strategy, without the survivor team throwing big time.
Comments
"SWF"
Right, but the odds of you or anyone on this forum playing at that level are incredibly slim. I've said it before: I played killer and survivor in comp for years. I've yet to encounter anything in a normal match that even approached the game speed or coordination of competitive play. You are not encountering this in a regular queue.
Your experience is your experience, but as some who has played for 4 1/2 years, this simply isn’t true. Those type of games may not be common, but they happen.
I also think the people on this forum lose track of an important fact: we are the minority of the player base. I would bet that a good chunk of people on this forum are in the high MMR bracket (especially since the threshold is so low).
Yes, SWF is when things get extra bad because people can co-ordinate bringing all the items for a single purpose. That was rather the point. Sometimes it's much worse than what's already a pretty weird mathematical baseline.
Yeah, and there is nothing you can do about it. Balancing the game for SWF is the same as ruining the game for the vast majority of players (solo queue)
I'd just take the entire issue with a grain of salt. You win some, you lose some. Done and done.
I didnt even mean that swf can premade 4 genrush builds....its not the main problem
Main problem is that chat was not in game design and breaks the game thats it.
You should not know when to get of gen for dms or eruption unless you have aura for example....
Or if you dont have aura or map showing where gens are you need to find them....as swf every one just say locations and its done....
Many many examples...
Like is it was designed by game that surv in chase knows across the map that 3 other ppl are genrushing or knows in which locker surv is waiting to go there and stun....
Dbd is first game i see where voice communication is realy breaking game
Yes, and when a good, co-ordinated SWF can complete all the gens in three minutes if they want (BNP and commodious toolboxes x4, hyperfocus, prove thyself, etc.) at the very extreme end of what's possible with efficiency, it means the game has a lot of wiggle room with gen efficiency. You need a lot more co-ordination to pull something like that off en masse, but a single player can still do part of it in solo, and you don't need any SWF or voice chat to get to the regular scenario you said didn't happen every time.
It takes 450s of gen progress total for Survivors to get out. If you want 12-hook games to be the norm, then that means at least 8 hooks before that gen progress accumulates (because otherwise we're talking 4E being normal). Which means for every 56s of accumulate gen progress, the Killer needs a hook. Or, for every 19s three Survivors are free to do gens, a hook.
Holding W after being hit is 15s before an M1 Killer can down someone again. 40s a chase including pickup and hook time. So, if you get 8 hooks, the one person who is always free (1 in chase, 1 hooked, 1 unhooking) stacks up 320s. But if the other 2 non-chased Survivors only get in 10s of gen time during all this, that's 160s total. 480s, more than enough. No toolboxes, no long chases, no self-unhooking or heals, no considering three people on gens right at the start, no instaheals etc.
Which is where tunnelling and regression-heavy perks come into it and cause the game to comically seesaw between rapid escapes and utter overkill because the Survivor side has collapsed and doesn't even reach that inefficient level.
But that's pretty much the point in a nutshell: if you want one side to be playing a game where they need to do 8 mini-objectives before the pressure eases up (no tunnelling ever), it won't happen in a game where they need to pull this one off roughly every 30s and can spend 8s of every chase in animation cooldowns (on-hit cooldown x2 + pickup animation); assuming 20s chases constantly is the whole starstruck nurse thing everybody wanted gone.
Sometimes I don't think high MMR is as sweaty as everyone makes it out to be just because of the MMR gap that expands the longer it takes to queue. I've been matched with streamers who tout themself as high/top MMR and I don't consider myself a top player and as chill as they come. It also seems like the expectation is you're facing swat team squads all the time when it could be 4 of the most coordinated solos ever.
You dont count in your genspeedtime calculations that 90 sec geb is for ONE SURV which is almost 99% of games done by min 2 survs....also 99% there is prove thyself....you dont need toolboxes or hyperfocus to make 3 min gens...one prove thyself on team is enough and thats what i saw 99% of games
To play normal in this game even on red ranks your killer must not be prestiged high...
I made my Pinhead prestige 6 for outfit bec i am Hellraiser fan ...now my pinhead is unplayable bec all i get is 50% ttv 90% swf...99% of games 2 gens in 1 min...they even genrush with chain hunt active...like nobody care for box even..you just tap with prove thyself and its allready genrush....
Then i pick my 1 prestige trapper and 99% of games are fair adequate
Killer prestige has nothing to do with MMR (and colour rank isn't MMR, rank is just a reflection of the amount of time you play). We can't see our MMR.
"Now imagine that the most optimal way to win the game, was to do the thing that is the most fun."
This doesnt exist in like, any "competitive" multiplayer game ever.
wow so 20 of 25 games i get and like lvl 100 prestige survs on my 6 prestige pinhead is just BADLUCK
hmmm
but when i pick trupper i get noobs all the time....hmmmmmm also BADLUCK but for them yeah
so if i want to not gen swf abusers i need to lvl up all except my favourite killer to be able to make build and have fun as killer
Excuse my intromission, i'm just a 3 year old dbd noob...
MMR is the single biggest culprit of everything we dislike right now. As much as some players didn't deserve to be Red Rank 1 there's a much larger number of players who don't belong above the Low MMR Cap we have right now, that are just polutting queues and making matches far worse than what they were under the Old Rank System.
It wasn't perfect but people were slotted in far better postions and nobody was afraid to play either role.
Those last four words are the problem, though.
That’s just BS.. I have 2.5k hours and I can tell you a few M1 Killers got a 4k even without tunneling/camping. And us survivors just have fun and chill, unlike some people thinking about getting 4k every game will give them a 🏆 or a 🥇. We sometimes even give Killers quick downs/hooks and yet they still have nerve to BM us on hook for messing up.. guess we should stack gen perks and tryhard every match if you Killers think it’s fun BMing Survivors on hook cuz we messed up
i factored that extra time into a formula in another post. the current game is about 2.5 to 7 minutes in a bell curve or something like that. with 5 minutes being the sweet spot. which for some is too short. but that's before we factor in mistakes, distances traveled, and perks. these should be considered irrelevant to the base gameplay in my opinion since these variables should be relatively similar and utilized as a constant rather than a variable to begin with. or at least as a balancing point. and mistakes are in my opinion the exception and not the norm.
i honestly don't have an overal opinion either way. i play your game and enjoy it for what it is, but to say games aren't a little bit fast is just ignoring the raw numbers.
obviously games shouldn't be taking 15-30 minutes to complete. there isn't nearly enough content in a trial for that nonsense.
however, if matches are being completed in sub 5 minutes then it depends on how the game's artistic mechanic approach is meant to be represented and if it's not intentional then... perhaps some countermeasures are required.
again - this is just me commenting on what i assume are facts. i very well and likely may be mislead or ignorant of something.
I feel like there is misconception in the OP and some of the posters about getting 8 hooks before any eliminations. As the OP states
Even assuming perfect conditions for the killer, a survivor team that splits up on gens against a killer that tries to 12-hook then, even with 20 second chases every time, the math still favors survivors.Yeah, that's the way the game is designed. With 4 survivors alive they should have an advantage over the killer if players are of roughly equal skill. The advantage tilts to the killer when they get an elimination. The math is designed so that killers should be getting an elimination before everyone is on death hook. The only way to change that would be to make it so DbD wasn't an elimination game (or put another way, if the game was designed so that killers had a 50/50 chance to win via 12 hook, a killer that tunneled would be winning 100% of the time).
12 hooks requires either effort, luck, player mismatch, or an opposing team really protecting their death hook teammates. Most of the games I 12 hook its because I'm so much stronger than those I matched up against that I'm actively avoiding certain survivors to give them a chance.
I also feel like tunneling and getting everyone to death hook before an elimination are totally different discussions. If the 3rd or 4th hook in a game is an elimination, sure, tunneling, but the 6th or 7th? Even if you are just chasing survivors as you find them its highly unlikely you are going to get to 8 hooks with 4 survivors still in the game.
-"Everyone will reach a point where you plateau while playing the way you would typically play..... This is exactly how MMR systems work. "
If we look at the Elo system for chess you do not have people in tournaments with 1600 Elo playing people with 2000 Elo. DBD says : whatever lol. I couldn't find a balanced match in time so here play this instead.
-"While I don't doubt that some folks here truly are playing in the high MMR range, the amount of people there are so low that it's a really bold claim to make when you can't even see your rating."
What do you consider high MMR? I would define any rating over 1600 as "high" because that is the cut off point where your rating ceases to matter. We know this is the line in the sand thanks to Choy.
If I am consistently playing people who win or place in comp DBD tournaments and their hour count is in multiples of 5000 then I can assume one of two things :
I cannot determine if the system is broken because you hide MMR from me.
Furthermore most people absolutely hate the MMR system. Let's look at some numbers.
MMR was introduced ~ September of 2021 right?
Look at what you did to the game.
MMR reduced the average player count on steam by roughly 20,000 players.
Are you sure you are a comp level player?
The first rule of fight club- I mean DBD tournament play is usually : no character/item/perk repeats. That doesn't exist in "regular" play so actually the potential for you to play a challenging game is actually extremely high.
One of my friends plays a team where everyone is p100 and uses deliverance, DH and the strongest possible toolbox. What tournament would allow that?