The two survivors, too many gens to finish mindgame is stale
I'm tired of being killer, doing well in a game, and having two survivors left with 3+ gens left. Let's be honest, they aren't going to do gens. Chances are one will hide in a locker, rotating between them to avoid birds, while the other more nubbish player runs around. I'll find one, slug him so I can get the 4k (which i ######### DESERVE in this case), and then spend 15 minutes trying to find this ######### coward that won't own up to the fact that he got owned, in a survivor sided game, and he's going to exploit this bullshit mechanic so he can get a free get out jail card aka hatch so he can feel warm and fuzzy about himself, get a pip and deprive me of a 4k.
Well what do I do half the time? I just hook the first downed survivor to avoid this horrendous slog of bullshit. Why not? There is at best a 20% chance I'll find that hatch before him, so why even ######### bother? Its like BHVR does everything in their power to prevent killer feeling good. You literally have to just absolutely ######### body survivors, or go against such potatoes that it doesn't even feel rewarding. And don't come at me with these dogshit ######### stats about 60% kills I don't give a ######### what people are doing in Ash tier.
Since this is how game developers work these days (players make the game for them, because its questionable whether or not devs even play their own work) I'll propose a solution. When there are less survivors than there are gens after two kills (that's 3 gens for you number challenged folks) crows immediately appear on all remaining survivors, and are audible in the same way they are normally as if afk. Working on a gen, crouching behind a box, hiding in a locker - crows are present and squawking. When the number of gens hits equal to the number of survivors, the crows disappear during and for 10 seconds after repairing a generator. When the gens drop down to less than the remaining survivors (read that 1 generator) the crows disappear. This will adequately prevent the obnoxious stalemate currently in the game, which by all purposes, should be a killer advantage situation.
Killer is already exhausting enough at mid-tier+ level of play. When you do well and play a good game you deserve to be rewarded.
Comments
"because slugging for the 4th is just drawing out the game and makin it unpleasant for everyone involved. Including you."
Which is exactly what I said, congrats on finally getting up to speed. So your solution, as a self-acclaimed killer main, is to just suck it up and move on at your own expense? Okay, cuck.
Old hatch was better all 4 could escape with one key with doing few gens.
Stop slugging for 4K if you can't take it. It's smart for last survivor hide in that situation and heal the slugged one when you're not around. If you just kill the 3rd one you have still chance to find hatch before last one. Otherwise you're just wasting lot of time to get that 4K. I only slug for 4K when I down 3rd one and see last survivor.
Whenever you slug for the 4k, you are purposely delaying the game because you dont want to give the 4th surv the slight chance of escaping through hatch.
It is not as if it was an accident that you happen to slug or you were forced to.
If you slug for the 4k, then you are on the same ground as those surv hiding you are ranting upon.
In fairness, I understand it is not the killers fault, it is the hatch mechanic that forces the slug if the killer really wants the 4k. I have done it myself but these days I just cannot be bothered and would rather go next. Most of my hours are still as survivor though and I have always disliked the hatch mechanic for this reason.
I have started running Unbreakable for the meantime, as I am finding myself being slugged like this a lot more lately for some reason so I want to punish it.
Firstly, you don't "deserve" a kill in a situation like that any more than a survivor "deserved" the escape just because they made it to the exit gates and got downed and picked up in them.
However, I do agree that for a whole lot of reasons it would help if the hatch essentially counted as a kill as far as points, pips and any achievements/challenges are concerned. The killer did already win from a mmr viewpoint, a kill-based viewpoint and a lot of the time from an emblem viewpoint. And it's already treated as a neutral result mmr wise so it's a sorta logical next step that doesn't actually impact gameplay in any way.
Then someone is losing themselves out of MMR because Hatch is a neutral escape. No one loses or wins (in the games' eyes in that situation).
>survivor sided game
If your complaint happens often enough for you to get salty about it, then maybe you have to admit that 61% is more than enough for your side?
Or, no, I'm sorry. Go on about how it's SO HARD when you're winning
Except I do, and the survivor doesn't, because I played well in this scenario, and because the survivor played poorly.
It's annoying but an issue like this is a sign of something wrong with the game. A game shouldn't be over when only half of the survivors are dead.
It keeps the game going for both sides*. Currently the issue OP is describing happens almost every game the survivors are losing. It slows down the game and is boring for both sides. Killers don't want to search the map for two survivors, and those survivors shouldn't be expected to get on a gen and basically kill themselves.
It does indirectly. More time to finish a gen means more time for a Killer to interrupt and keep them down, which ends up with 2 survivors left in 3+ gens when before it would be 2 left in a 1-2 gen situation, which is still feasible with good management of gens beforehand.
Look I'm sorry, but as it currently is, the game is for all intents and purposes over. Its a new game, a metagame, and as it stands, it's extremely stale - as I have detailed numerous times.
If a survivor had managed to survive that long, evade you and find the hatch or do the doors they played well and you played poorly. Their job is literally to evade you and survive by whatever means necessary and yours to find and kill them by whatever means necessary which is obviously where 'I'm gonna slug and go after the fourth player' attitude has come from. Unfortunately, for you, survivors are wising up and not falling for the trap you're setting. BHVR also clearly agree with this because they're making unbroken base kit allowing slugged survivors to get up.
A 4K for killer, or a 4 man escape is meant to be the result of exceptional play. Slugging and expecting a survivor to walk willingly into your 'trap' isn't that. You don't deserve anything.
Yes, you are slugging for an easy 4K. That is not in question here... it also doesn't mean you deserve anything. Whether I play killer or not really doesn't change that. Stop spitting your dummy out over a game where you've already deemed to have won.
See if it's triggering you this badly probably isn't healthy. You are engaging in a tactic that you hate. And pretty soon will be irrelevant when we get basekit unbreakable. You just need to reconcile that sometimes 4th survivor will get hatch.
Playing the game to the best of your ability is fine, i usually sweat when i play killer. But to be this worked up because you want a 4k every game and sometimes have to settle for a 3k? That's a bit over the top.
Before you dig that hole deeper, let's take a breath.
You say you "deserve" that 4k for playing well. Is the survivor who isn't slugged playing well by avoiding you or are you playing poorly by not finding? Tell me, does that 4k really mean THAT much that you want to drag out the match? You can't blame the survivor for hiding as their objective is to try and escape by any means. If it means leaving the slug do be it, just as survivors can't blame you for slugging for that 4k.
But some unwanted advice. If this is REALLY causing so much distress, then you need to take a breather mate.
That was awful. A more extreme case of survivors not even doing their full objective and escaping for free. Keys needed to go, and they still do. Supposed to be "limited time item" but we're kept permanently and open hatch even after the killer closes it.
Nah they're pretty bad item now killers will tunnel you out if you have them or they have franklin's. They should change hatch how it was but it's only spawn when all gens are done.
So you think it's okay for them to do nothing, potentially forever? Just don't even try, because the killer (according to the way y'all word it) can't be ran for the last gen even with all these strong loops in the game? That's defeatist, and y'all are acting like it's the only thing they can do when it's not. They've played the whole match out putting themselves at risk by working on gens, and yet we don't consider that "killing themselves."
Oh believe me, the survivors don't want to be there either. It's a flaw in the design. It's a stalemate unless the survivors essentially concede. Personally, I just take the 3k and move on because it's a pub and who cares. Kind of ridiculous to expect the survivors to give themselves up.
The thing is, this happens less the less generators remain. The situation the OP stated was 2 survivors and 3 gens. The chances of completing 3 gens by yourself while your only other team mate is getting slugged are close to none, and nothing guarantees you that the killer isn't keeping an eye on the slugged survivor.
When there's only one gen remaining, people hide less. There's a higher chance one will go down and the other will survive, especially because there's a slight chance the downed survivor has perks like Adrenaline or they may rethink giving up and using Unbreakable if the other player gets caught.
People play more safe when there's more gens because it's unreasonable for 2 players, one of them downed, to do 3 or more gens by themselves. The best course of action is letting the other die and go for hatch to at least get a redo.
What the OP was asking for was the equivalent of a single player holding 99% of the spaces in a game of Monopoly and, instead of quitting the game early proclaiming that player as the winner, screaming at the other player to painfully roll the dice every time and slowly losing whatever remaining money they have on themselves.
As I said before, it's not the pleasure of winning, it's the pleasure of seeing someone else lose.
Nah, it's the game's fault for not having a real back up plan for Survivors in a losing game to actually have. It just turns into someone has to die and the other has to hope for hatch which is poor design.
I been in matches as Killer where one tries to do gens and the other hides. I'll slug the one working and try to kill the other, but that just looks like me being an ass and slugging for the 4K when I intend to spare the one. If it happens on Swamp, good luck finding the hiding one.
And on the flipside I had a Jane recently try to get herself sacrificed so I had a chance at the hatch. Instead he refused to hook her. I got her up like twice and he went for me and downed me. Then he left me slugged till he found and downed/killed her. The game was cheeky and had hatch spawn near me as he approached. He casually walked on my slugged body and slammed the hatch closed. Would of been poetic if I wormed my way out but I got crushed instead rewarding him for being petty.
Good survivors won't be left with this circumstances, and even if they are, they still have a good chance to get at least 1 out if they don't just give up. Remember the strong loops in this game, and what good survivors can do with them. They can run the killer for at least 1 gen.
And what does that get you in solo Q? I had a game the other day where someone DC's at 5 gens, and entity willing we barely still managed to finish them all with 1 other person dying for it.
Then guess what? The doors spawn in a manner that the killer can sit in one spot, with blight, and see both of them. What do you do as the last two survivors? It's unwinnable, and someone has to die, even more so with all the second chance perks disabled during the EGC (because killers need to be rewarded with free kills even though they lost all their gens)
"You can get 1 out though!" lol
I have had games where the killer literally cannot catch me, trivially murders my teammates, and slugs until they find me or the last guy sandbags me. Are they outplaying me in that case? Or just winning because of game design and bad matchmaking, where I physically cannot hold M1 hard enough to win?
Where does that happen for the killer? Not only does this exist for the killer, it is the entire basis of the game. Every time the survivors complete a gen the map shrinks. I've seen killers get stomped for 75% of the game and then turn it around at the end. Not to mention you still have the opportunity to get kills post gens. Really until the doors are open even against a 4 man you have a chance to get at least 1 survivor down and on the hook and camp them while you wait out EGC.
It stuns me that killers don't realize this. As the survivors play better, the game becomes more and more difficult for surviovrs. If the killer plays well, it gets considerably easier. Killers don't need anything else because they already have it, they are always 'in the game' until the survivors are in the exit gates. On the other hand, for survivors to have something to play for they need an additional element, the hatch. Your solution goes in the wrong direction, far from making it easier for the killer at 2 survivors, more should be done to give them a chance to keep the game going.
Let's turn your logic around that around:
Why should I be punished as survivor just because the killer managed to find a weak survivor on the team and tunnel them out. Or what about the situation where the survivors suddenly have to play without a teammate due to disconnects. I don't know the other survivors, they were just thrown into a game with me. I may well have played the best game of my life but am going to lose because my team was garbage.
It's not always fair, but you're going to play hundreds of games, it averages out. Lots of people just don't see when the odds fall in their favor, then they call it skill.
They serve their purpose. They're a free escape for 1 person, not the whole team, which is still an issue even though it doesn't happen often. I've never equipped Franklin's or tunneled a survivor out for having a key since their nerf. But hatch needs to go and keys with them. Introducing alternate win conditions for survivor means the killer has to juggle too much stuff, 2 exit gates and then hatch. And just to let everyone know, I'm against alternate win conditions for either side, which is why I hate the Sadako slugging/condemning playstyle, and why it was my 1 problem with Rarithlynx's Slender concept.
If I was running a hundred meter dash and realized I was somehow 50 meters ahead of my opponents, yeah, I'd slow down. I've won, this talk of Bronze is silly. Especially if I was just in a casual race and not some professional competition, though even in professional competitions it's pretty normal to put in backups/slow down when you have a giant lead. Playing to win is great, once you've won just grinding your opponent down is ridiculous.
I don't really care how many gens are left. If you never try to complete them, you never know what could happen. Y'all are creating an unfair hypothetical situation, and I'll argue against the OP as well if that's what he truly meant, that the other person is already slugged. Not only can the other survivor pick up the slugged person, unlike how you said where the killer is somehow always close to the person they're supposedly slugging as they're looking for the other person, but they don't have to be in that situation already. The other person could also be injured or healthy, although the other person sometimes gives up and hides despite that. If survivors want to forfeit, go ahead and give them that option as a team vote. I just want to get away from this "Man, it's that darn killer's fault" for every situation including this one. The only reason they're even slugging is because of the possibility of a free hatch escape, but instead of viewing hatch as the problem we view the symptom, slugging, as the problem. That's the counterplay to hatch. I guess only survivors are allowed counterplay to the other side.
Your accusation that we get pleasure from watching others lose is baseless.
Why do you insist on DCs being in typical matches which we balance around? No other game factors DCs into balancing.
I'd love for door distances to be standardized, because there's gate spawns like you describe, but there's just as many where they're the furthest apart possible to where even Blight would struggle to patrol. I think you know full well why second chance perks, which are undesirable in their design as it is, are deactivated in endgame. They're free escapes within very common scenarios that happen in that stage of the game. Even if killers were able to wait out base BT off hook without the survivor being blocked or already running out because of the speed, Off The Record and DS add yet another layer of protection that the killer can't reasonably wait out. "Killer's fault for the match getting to endgame." Then, when survivors lose it's always their fault? No? Then let's move on.
I don't think getting 1 survivor out at that point is unreasonable. It's either that or nobody getting out. Take your pick. It's not as if we're talking about match results in general. We're talking about specifically 2 survivors being left and there still being a gen(s) to be done.
Yes the killer is outplaying you, because it's a requirement to actually get you. And they're supposed to be able to outplay you, because it's a 1v4 game, not 1v1. You can't expect to run the killer all by yourself forever, or escape solely because you ran him well. Unfortunately this is a team game, so if you're the only one on your team doing anything significant, you still lose. The game's bad design and bad matchmaking are 2 different things. I keep saying that we should focus on fixing matchmaking, not the "OP killers", because we're not even getting an accurate picture of the game's balance. Of course good killers get 4ks against 2 good/2 bad survivor teams. But in the matches I've seen where there were 4 good survivors and a good killer, the survivors win almost every time, SWF or not. That may be THE most important thing I base my opinions off of.
This is why the entity should start the endgame collapse at the 30 minute mark. Hard time limit.
This is non issue, you decided to waste their time by slugging them for the 4k when you had no idea where the other survivor was so they matched your energy and hid until you gave up and hooked them. Like you won already, don't prolong the match for 10 minutes just so one person won't get hatch just to feed your ego.
You're not grinding your opponent down! You're just winning! You're simply performing to the best of your ability. Feeling an obligation to give up your hard-fought advantage is up to personal discretion. I'm so tired of this fake virtue signaling/talk of sportsmanship, because it's always emphasized on the wrong areas of playing the game, and it's used to make people who are successful feel bad about themselves. I should know; being humble has always been the perennial virtue to me. It doesn't mean that confidence and gratification are these great evils to be avoided.
I mean all forms of sportsmanship are personal discretion; that's why it's good behavior and not a rule.
And really, how is it not grinding your opponent down? How is lengthening the game via slugging to maximize the chances of a 4k different than a basketball team that is up 30 keeping their starters in to rack up even more points. If you think such situations are cool, just say so, some people do, but don't pretend it's something different than it is. To me slugging in this situation just comes off as inappropriate behavior. The Killer has won. To use the basketball analogy it doesn't matter whether you win by 50, 30, or 20: you clearly won the game, it's realistically impossible to change that: that's the same situation as slugging at 3 gens left.
There are several misconceptions i see here.
I dont belive you, that you slug one guy and then search the other for 15 min, because bleeding out don´t take so long.
If you deserved that 4k is another matter. Either you were overskilled for the survivors, then the game was handed to you by bad matchmaking, and you already got more than you deserved.
You might deserve it if you got 10 hooks so far in that game, but if you just tunneled/camped out 2 guys, you deserve as much as a boring match as that survivors can give you.
And now you are stomping around like an entitled little kid because the other kids stopped playing with you, and the devs should hold your hand a little more and hand you the game entirely, because even if working on a gen, you want the survivors pointed out to you.
Also, you say if you do well and play a good game you deserve to be rewarded. What about that survivor that you chased 3 times and that escaped you 3 times. Where is his reward in this, because he did do well and played good, so according to you, he should be rewarded, right?
You are aware it is already killer favored, because most of the time the killer can find the hatch way faster? I never slug for a 4k, i just hook the 3rd and while i dont keep stats about that, i would think the last survivor escapes less than 20% for sure, probably closer to 10%.
(to be fair, my mainkiller is dredge, and he just needs 3 teleports to check about 60% of most maps for hatch. But with other killers, the experience is not much different.)
Yeah actually. Getting the 4th the killer is camping on hook is often a slippery slope and could easily turn into a 3k. I always advocate for just taking the 3 man if the save isn't looking too easy. But just like as killer I still try for the hatch we still TRY to get that 4th escape. I play both roles. You don't need a 4k, nor do you need a 4 man. Everyone is free to go for the 4k and the 4 man escape but if you're going to slug to prevent hatch and then complain about the game being stale you have lost all perspective.
That's not what I was implying. You kill the 3rd survivor and then find and close the hatch. If they get it before you, big deal. Again, despite what people might believe it is way easier for Killer to find hatch. So you don't GIVE it to them, they get lucky or you TAKE it from them. I never spoke about handouts. The hatch is not a handout unless you straight up do that yourself and don't search for it. The hatch is very RNG based but you've still gotta earn it over the killer.
Nah once you get to the body blocking point the killer already lost that survivor. That's the same as the point where the killer closes hatch and the last shred of hope is with the exit gate.
See this message for more about that.
Also despite my opinion wins as killer and survivor don't translate over 1:1. A 4 man escape is 4 individual people winning and escaping, while a 3 man is 3 winning and 1 losing. With kills a 3 and a 4k are both wins for one person. These kinds of statements lack perspective and reek of "killer main".
On a tangent, as a few other people have said in this thread. You have to EARN the 4k. The OP didn't earn the 4k even tho he claims he did because part of the point of hatch is to give a final roadblock for the maximum win.
It's also worth noting that I'm mainly objecting this crows mechanic suggested here. While I personally don't approve of slugging for the 4k, if you want the 4 man go for it. If they want the escape tho they can still hide. So either side can make the choice to un-stale the gameplay.
The survivor was rewarded. With wasting the killer's time. It's their teammates' choice if they actually want to put that time to use. And y'all always talk about a killer committing to a survivor too long, and that's why it's their fault that they lost, but then you say that they're a baby killer for not being able to get the survivors, that they left, in a reasonable amount of time. The survivors' reward is not an escape; it's the killer's wasted time that gives them a higher chance of getting more people out. The more, the better. But it doesn't mean that they specifically are gonna get out. It just depends on how the match plays out.
Y'all really present an argument in like 10% of your post, and then the rest is attacking the OP's character.
But then the killer also got rewarded, even if a player escape via hatch and he didnt 4k. Then what is the op arguing about? He won the match, that was his reward, but he is still crying over the game not being handed to him after 2 kills.
Why don't they give killer instinct in scenarios like those
The only amusement from a DBD round you can get at this point is watching the killer sweat it out over the last gens like you have a chance. It’s quite cute though they’re really passionate.
When the gen time was 80 second it was still almost impossible for 2 survivors to win with 3 gens remaining.
no, it wasnt. I did it several times. I am also not claiming it is impossible now, in fact i still do gens, but the problem is i am usually the only one, while the other hides.
If that's true then I should get the 4k for killing 2 survivors with 3 gens remaining - end of story. As it stand if I do this, I do not +2 pip. So your analogy is entirely false. 99% win? More like 50% of a win for 95% of the work. The remaining 5% is a total slog that is unfun for both sides. If I won as you say, then give me the win. Give me the 2 pip, I don't care if you "lose"
Wanna know whats fair? Playing killer, I'm tired of you survivors brining RNG into this equation with garbage players being on your team in solo Q. That's BHVR's attempt at preventing decent players from having a bad time due to garbo allies on their team? A get out of jail free card via hatch? The bias towards pleasing survivors is so blatantly obvious to anyone paying attention.
"I'd slow down"
tell me how I know you aren't and were never a competitive athlete
So you don't really have a response to how the game rewards killer when it is going poorly for them by shrinking the map. Your argument is that hatch is unfair and shows a bias, while ignoring how easy the map shrinking makes it for the killer.
Incidentally, I was just playing Killer. Doing pretty badly off the start, only had three hooks by the time they got to 1 gen left. I still won because I had so little map to defend (3 kills, 1 hatch escape).
tell me how I know you aren't and were never a competitive athleteSoccer, wrestling, and running (though not the 100, long distance).