The Other Side are Players Too
After this patch, I feel like the rise in Us Vs. Them has become rather prevalent. This patch is quite unusual because it favors killers, something that has not really happened in along time. Not only does it favor killers, it favors them a lot with a series of changes that make playing killer less painful.
However, this patch also revealed a simple fact about most players; they have no idea how the other side works at all.
You have survivors who are horrifed at the mere idea of being tunneled in endgame, and killers who have to bring the strongest perks on the strongest killers and slug everyone because they might get gen rushed.
It should be noted that the survivor has no clue what tunneling actually is and the same goes for the killer and gen rushing.
While the latest batch does have its problems (75% grind reduction is a lie, Blood point Bonuses, Botany Buff, Self Care), it does have some good changes.
Disabling DS and Off the Record in the endgame makes sense because the only way to counter these perks was to tunnel or camp.
Making Corrupt Intervention deactivate on downing a survivor is a great way to balance the perk.
A lot of perks that were limited in effectivness like Hope, Surge, Overcharge, and Inner Focus got changes to them that make them more worthwhile to use.
At the end of the day, remember that there is no reward for High MMR. Just take a breather and focus on having fun, not just sweating every match.
Comments
Because you had to give up perk slots for that, which is a very good thing.
Imagine that build you mentioned, except that it is joined by 3 more slowdown perks and an even stronger Thanatophobia.
Those numbers are not "broken" or "overpowered" by themselves. They become a problem when they are paired together with a full slowdown, which should not be possible
This is basically what Exhaustion was added for.
Before this patch I suggested doing something similar with second chance perks, anything that effectively gave you a free health state with no other cost, so Decisive, Unbreakable, Deliverance. Basically you would get one 'second chance' per game, and if you used say Unbreakable, then you used that one 'second chance' up and you could no longer DS or Deliverance.
Using a similar system for slowdowns could be feasible, but slowdowns are so varied, and with varied potencies too, that it would need to only target the few really problematic ones.
I'm thinking at the moment the perks that would make the most sense would be; Overcharge, Eruption, Pop Goes the Weasel, Oppression. These all require the killer to kick a gen and all initiate some form of bonus regression. So if there could be a mechanism that limited these effects to only one at a time, that could be an effective restriction. You could still pair them with things like Dragon's Grip, Trail of Torment, even Call Of Brine (because this doesn't initiate any big regression dump, it just doubles your base regression rate).
Things like Thanatophobia are trickier to work into a shared system, I think this just needs a flat nerf, or alternatively it could be powerful enough to become a Hex, or just be reworked to something like "upon injuring a survivor by any means, gains 1 stack for 60 seconds", this would mean stacks would successively drop off even if survivors didn't heal themselves.
Know what else could be a good idea and allow more nerfs to slowdown? Killer add-on buffs.
Nurse doesn't need more slowdown, nor does Blight, but Myers? Trapper? Sadako? Maybe.
Ghostface for example has an add-on that regresses a gen by 20%! that's not insignificant, and it can save you using a load of slowdown perks on him.
You could give Myers an add on that functions as a mini Jolt with a shorter distance when in tier 3, or Trapper one that inflicts survivors who disarm traps with a temporary reduction to repair speeds. You can then nerf slowdown perks even further, and the killers most reliant on them have other options, giving them room to use non-slowdown perks like... Brutal Strength or STBFL.
Well said. I agree.
Some good ideas here. I really like the Thana idea of auto drop-off. Maybr 45s would be a good measure? You could just heal right now and a heal should still be preferable to waiting it out, but 1min is already quite a lot of time in this game.
But I think the basic idea we are discussing here is the right step in the right direction: somehow prevent all this stupid stacking of individually ok perks, that easily add up to something broken.
The other thing is the camping problem. My solution would be to give killers a BBQ basekit effect, ie after hooking someone show them the survivor furthest away (minimum 24m) and give them a 10s +15% speed boost as long as they are moving away from the hook and outside of a chase. Once the killer enters a chase or enters 15m radius around the showcased survivor the speed boost turns off.
"Current killer behavior" and "reasonable/non-toxic/good sportsmanship" cannot be mentioned in the same sentence anymore. Most of the killers in game want to make sure you understand that clearly.
They have been buffed, which is great, but they use this fair advantage to make the other side miserable if possible. It's not about winning but about bullying.
If you think the issue is the way survs were intentionally caused to have increased death rates is the issue rather than just the fact that the death rates are increased, I don't know how to have a conversation on this topic with you. The whining we're observing would be happening regardless if how the increased death rates were caused.
Tell that the survivors that I faced today. After an unhooking there was a big confusion and after some frantic flailing the unhooked Laurie on death hook lay on the floor. Both me and Dwight stared at her for a second, then I chased Dwight over half the map.
Laurie died later that match, but at least she got a fighting chance.
I'm not keen on basekit aura reading, and I don't think BHVR are either.
The main thing with camping is, it's a legit strategy, with a cost. That cost is you're giving up gen pressure. So capitalise on it. If the counter to camping is 'doing gens', then make gen speeds faster when a killer is camping.
This is not abusable in the same way that 'slowing the hook' was, because any survivor attempting to keep the killer near the hook to maintain this effect isn't doing gens, and so is squandering this effect.
It could still be too 'complicated' to be basekit though, so I think it could work as a decent survivor perk. "When a killer is within 16m of any hooked survivor for more than 10s, this perk activates. All survivors receive a 6/8/10% increase to repair speeds until the killer is more than 24m from the hooked survivor, does not stack with itself."
Other than that, killer incentives are also important, like BBQ. Pain Resonance also worked really well to dissuade camping, but it lost it's information in favour for regression when it should have been the opposite. Nerf the regression to 10% or even 8%, then bring back the noise notification.
Yeah except that "good sportsmanship" isn't a defined term, and always varies depending on who's playing the game. I get salty surv tears almost every game, no matter what I do, without exception.
So as far as I can tell, when survs want "good sportsmanship" what they really mean is "I want you to let me win."
Or... "I want you to hook me and stop hitting me on hook when you're the first person you find", or "I want you to allow for my to progress in a way where I can make points and you can also make points by hooking someeone else", etc etc
For real! Pain Res was the perk that saved killer for me, when survivors were just THAT oppressive. With PainRes I could hook on the fly, get a breather with the gen regression AND got a new target to check out.
Now PainRes feels so... empty. Lifeless. You hook someone and the void looks back at you. "Did it work? Was it worth it? Were should I go now? Maybe I'll just stay and try to trade hooks? I wonder what I'll be eating for dinner tonight..."
The combo with DMS was bonkers, but the distant explosion was a good effect that made you leave the hook.
I think it would have been healthier if they had kept the explosion, but didn't make survivors on the gen scream or be automatically pushed off.
Cool story. I'd love for lone survivor survs to stop teabagging despite barely escaping alive because it's hyper-toxic dioucebaggery, but I'm an adult and know it's not going to happen so I ignore it. Because I'm an adult.
So when you can come up with a definition all your survkind can embrace that includes "not whining about hatch" and "no more 4K shaming" then I can get onboard.
Until then, you all may go fly a kite.
Guess you hit people in the hook then because it feels as if I hit a nerve...
I complain both tunneling/camping & Gen rush so... period period period
OOOGA BOOOGA MY SIDE GOOD YOUR SIDE BAD OOOGA BOOOGA
LOL why would I do that? It's a complete waste of time.
Guess you teabag in the most toxic way possible, it feels as if I hit a nerve.
this you?
You realize all you're doing right now is proving my arguments about survs to be right, right?
Please, keep going.
All I'm proving is that you think this is some kind of war where only one side is to blame.
But well...
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Problem with balancing around SWF is that before the update killers were playing 70% of their games against soloq and now those people are leaving the game because its such a miserable experience. Now as a killer most of my games are against SWF and I can still normally secure 2k which is a win in my book but most killers don't think this is a win and want more. Why would anyone want to stick around if they are going to be tunneled or camped almost every game or just watch a mediocre killer get an easy 4k. The devs need to figure out a way to give soloq a buff while making sure that SWF doesn't get one. One of the biggest issues with soloq is a lack of communication, something the devs have known about for quite some time and still have done nothing about. I'm not sure if giving a ping system or comms in game would fix all the issues but it would definitely help.
70%?
Says...who?
That hasn't been my experience, at all. At least half of my games have a full or partial SWF in them.
Nobody is getting camped 'every other game'. Yes, camping needs a look, but it's a difficult fix to get right.
Yes, I'd like to see solos get a buff, but I don't know if communication is the issue. Coordination is the issue, but you can't give that artificially. That all said - this is a game best played in a group. There are tons of tools to find groups. Is it such a bad idea to nudge people towards groups?
PR will get nerfed again - it's numbers are a bit out of whack with the changes. I wish they'd nerfed the numbers from the start and kept the scream - it gave the perk so much character.
I think it'd be a fair amount of work - for what I'm almost certain will be minimal gains. Because communication doesn't mean coordination.
Interesting. I'm finding the game less boring on both factions.
Why this is absolute bunk: Those who used dead hard well were already good loopers. Yes, it could extend a chase. But, survivors who used it knew they had it. They always planned around it. I know killer mains like to think it was just some mindless perk survivors used to get out of a situation they got themselves out of without any planning. But that's simply not the case.
Dead hard on a bad looper delayed the killer maybe 5 seconds. It was not some escape chase free perk. You had to know what you were doing. The problematic survivors were the ones who used dead hard with a plan. Those same survivors are able to adapt without dead hard. Chances are they even played games without dead hard before the patch was even announced. They might have used it a lot, but they probably occasionally took it off and played without it.
Now, some of the other stuff will take some adjustments. Such as new bloodlust, new cool down, and reduced distance on hit. But dead hard was not the crutch everyone thought it was. It was strong, in the right hands. Maybe too strong. But the better the player, the better use they got out of it
The problem with the patch is the excessive regression. Want proof: look how few complaints that ruin got MASSACRED there are. The last ruin change had everyone up in arms. This one, even though the perk is now essentially useless? Crickets. Because they have stronger, non hex slowdown and regression to take it's place. Instead of ruin and undying, they can run call of brine and overcharge, no need to worry about a survivor eating two perks fifteen seconds into the match.
The massive regression is making the game worse. Combined with lack of buffs to solo queue (even some basic information would go a long way. Like showing your teammates perks in lobby. How does that buff swf in any way? And a chase indicator for all survivors would assist in letting them know they need to go for the save. Again, info swf already have for free)
It's not even about escape rates. Even when I escape )usually through hatch because killers give up on me and focus on my teammates) games just aren't very fun because of the levels of regression some killers are using and are able to use now that other perk slots have been freed up. Games are just a bit miserable.
I know it must be hard to accept but no one is complaining about SWF on the forums but there are tons of posts lately of people complaining about the miserable experience that solo is right now so imo 70% seems like an accurate number. Considering my experience as killer I would also say that 70% was correct before the patch.
I played about 15 games with some friends the other day and there were 2 where we didn't run into a camper or tunneller. So camping and tunneling is a bigger issue than you think. Its not a difficult fix, all they have to do is teleport the person on the hook to another hook on the other side of the map when camping (like pyramid head's cage ability already does), that fixes the issue of camping and tunneling.
Trying to force anyone to play the way you want them to is never a good idea. Its much easier to coordinate if you have a ping system like apex legends or in game comms. For instance, I am partially colorblind and don't always see auras of my teammates (even with colorblind mode active) depending on the map so I'm not sure how to improve that artificially. The ping system is also a better idea because not everyone wants to have to talk or has the social skills to chat with others (such as people with Asperser's) hence why they play solo. Having 3 other people constantly talking can also be very distracting to some. Using discord or other tools to find groups does help find groups but doesn't help with the communication issue unless you are going to try to type a message or open a voice chat using that system which can also lead to issues hearing in game audio. People should be able to play the way they want and every group should be considered when making changes if you want to diversify your player base to bring in more revenue and keep the game around.
I could not agree more! When you buy Dead by Daylight you get the option to play both roles, and so many do play both roles. There is no US vs THEM. It's Dead by Daylight players vs Dead by Daylight players. Both teams are inter-changeable, one and the same. There's no need for senseless fighting and toxicity in this game anymore.
There's only two acceptable outcomes to a game, you either say "gg" and move on, or if you're feeling particularly kind, complement your allies or adversary! How hard is it to say "Thanks for the unhook Bill!" or "Nice shot, Huntress!" instead of placing a pox upon everyone in the end-game chat?
if you actually generalize all killer mains like that, then that's pretty sad. It's not hard to understand that there enough people that main one of the other side that do not think this way, and do care about both sides.
So if you really support this us vs them idea because of certain killer mains, then that's just dumb.
Pretty sure there are a lot of killer mains that sympathize with survivor right now. I have seen a lot myself, and I am one of them.
Of course people only identify those people that think survivors should not receive any buffs as killer mains. Not to mention that negative comments that can make one upset generally stand out more to people.
So...70% isn't a stat, it's your own estimate.
My estimate is very different, whether I'm on survivor or killer.
Your camping solution would cause more issues than it would solve, mate.
I don't know how much a ping system would do, because A. I play a lot of games with ping systems, and it's just wall to wall spam. Your hypothetical player would be just as overwhelmed with 3 people spamming pings on cooldown and B. communication isn't coordination. You can't force people to listen to your pings.
I'm not against the idea, I just think it's going to be - at best - a wash.
You cannot balance this game around both solos and SWF.
...
That about sums it up.
This is the most partisan game fanbase I've ever seen. It's absurd.
Like 75% of all posts are the lunatic ravings of people with no general perspective on the game.
are you should your both adult?
your both acting like children
someone who understands why I said solo should get a 5th perk slot not swf
my thread but how dev do thing I don't know.
How would my camping solution cause more more problems? It doesn't seem to cause problems when pyramid head puts you in a box. If your going to offer criticisim maybe do it in a constructive way and tell me why it wont work, mate.
Your estimate is different because I'm talking about before the patch and before a whole bunch of people left the game. Show me a stat then but based off of logical thinking most people play solo. If you can't think logically and come to the conclusion that most games killers were being paired against were solo then you have to be in denial. How many SWF team do you think are in the game at one time? By your comment you must think that solo has been non existent and only SWF play this game. Which is grossly untrue if you look at the forums and the people that are saying that solo is terrible.
If you play ping system games and people are just spamming you must have some terrible luck. I was just playing some apex earlier today and the 2 other random teammates I played with in the matches I played did nothing of the sort. The only time anyone spams ping is when they are down and trying to get you to come to them before they die.
You can balance this game for solos and SWF the game just needs to be able to distinguish which teams are solo and which are SWF and balance accordingly. I'm not going to offer a solution on how this will be done because you will just shoot it down without and explanation.
In a word? Unforeseen consequences. It would make defending the hook nearly impossible for one - and while camping/tunneling need a look, unhooks should absolutely not be free.
Another scenario - as a killer, I could manipulate this to make unhooking very. very difficult by bouncing people around the map right before the unhook.
Do most people play solo? I'd have to dig up the quote, but if I recall, BHVR said that most people outside of complete newbies at least dabble in SWFs.
My problem is that you're making statistical claims without any sort of data, and basing an argument around it. The burden of proof is on you to prove your claims, not on me to disprove them.
Ping spamming in Apex...just Google it. So many complaints.
Yes, it would be simpler to just treat solos and SWFs as different matchups and balance them differently, but BHVR have emphatically said that they won't ever do this, so that discussion is completely moot.
70% sounds about right or you think the long killer wait times always been there before this patch and 4 man team doesn't always happen mostly partial 2 man or 3 man with either 1 or 2 solo.
how you know who was swf group? you can't tell from in game and some 4 man group normally are messing around.
what you said (Is it such a bad idea to nudge people towards groups?)
I say yes some people don't want to chat with someone they don't know.
solo is how the game should be played not knowing what your teammate are doing where the killer is meant to be scary which at this point it not.
after this patch I'm sure your getting a lot of 4 man SWF now after the long wait for a match.
but really the only thing that I hated the most about this patch was everything to do with the bloodweb and BP gain after a match
after a match killer or survivor it don't feel worth it.
because they didn't fix the grind they made it worse.
edit btw the 'rise' of camping and tunneling it the 90sec gens on top of speed buff killers got to they basekit and the buff to alot of slow down perks which make camping and tunneling much much easier and that the rise of camping and tunneling.
killer just don't want to see it only see survivors bad with out deadhard that also they don't want they buffs taken away.
why they don't think the changes are big deal.
Yeah, the teleporting hooks idea isn't new. It looks good at a quick glance, but quickly falls apart upon analysis for the reasons you mentioned. It would make defending a hook nearly impossible (and some hook defense is absolutely necessary), and if the killer can see the hook location, they could make life miserable for teams trying to save (can you imagine a Sadako or Dredge? the hook would in constant motion).
And I think the numbers I saw on solo v. SWF was something like 50% pure solo at any given time, a smaller percentage of 2 person SWF, 3 person swf lower still, and 4 person at the lowest rate. So at least some randoms in the vast majority of games going on at any given time.
Defending the hook is camping. You can't defend a hook without proxy camping or face camping outside of using an ability to teleport you back to the hook or by laying a trap of some sort. Which there are only a few killers that can do this (trapper, hag, demo ect). Obviously you could solve your scenario by only transporting the person if another survivor is not in a certain range. So if for instance the hag were to teleport to a trap next to the survivor that is being unhooked the survivor wouldn't be transported because another survivor is in said range. Forcing the killer to take chase or to continue to camp which the survivor would then be sent to another hook.
Newbies will keep the lights on longer than any player that's been around for years. New players will not only buy new dlc and cosmetics that get released but will more than likely buy stuff most people already have if they are enjoying the game. Since pretty much all new players start out solo they will not stick around to spend money if they are losing constantly. So figuring out a way to cater to the new crowd would only bring in more revenue for BHVR.
Don't tell me that the burden of proof is on me and then tell me to do a simple google search. That has to be the most oxymoronic statement I've ever read. Here is some stats for you from 2020 https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/135357/can-we-get-statistics-for-how-many-people-play-in-swf. I couldn't find anything from more recent but with only 3-6% being full 4 man SWF 2 years ago, I'm sure that number hasn't increased by that much if not gone down because of people leaving to play new released games. 2 man SWF doesn't do anything if you get paired with players that aren't that good, which I've had happen multiple times as killer. The definition of dabble is "take part in an activity in a casual or superficial way." So yes while most new players will "dabble" in SWF most of the time they are playing solo.
If BHVR is unwilling to treat solos and SWF as different matchups then ultimately the game will fail because new players will not stick around. Since SWF is so op then killers will start to leave also. So have fun playing against that same 3-6% of SWF players.
people like conflict ig, it's in human nature
hard to buff solo without buffing SWF? not really. Super ez fix. Bond and Kindred base kit. No buff to SWF whatsoever, but necessary for solo