Should exhaustion be the next haemorrhage?
Exhaustion is the only status effect in the game that is reliant on a survivor bringing an exhaustion perk for it to even effect them. If a survivor has no exhaustion perk, it literally does nothing to them. Isn’t this a design flaw?
It would be one thing if exhaustion was only self-inflicted; but as we know, there’s a set of killer perks and add-ons that apply it to survivors as well. It doesn’t have to be anything major, but exhaustion needs some effect outside of making survivors unable to use exhaustion perks.
My idea? It also gives a Stridor effect. Exhausted survivors breathe a bit louder if healthy, and groan heavier if injured. It would be applied at a level of 2% louder per every five seconds of exhaustion needed to recover (so 16% louder while exhausted for another 40 seconds, for example).
What are your thoughts?
Edit: auto-correct loves add-ons.
Comments
exhaustion was introduced because the devs pulled a whoopsie with exhaustion perks and made them too strong, while needing some way to limit the frequency survivors could activate them. You can't really rework the status without completely changing how the perks (especially their cooldown) work.
That said i do like the idea of them breathing louder while its active, makes sense since you're supposed to be winded.
So now people who dont take Exhaustion perks have to suffer just because Exhaustion exists to limit the massive strength Exhaustion perks provide?
no.
I better receive some benefit then whenever I'm not exhausted to compensate for the random nerf to existing without an Exhaustion perk.
Tbh exhaustion needs some other downside aside from wombo combo prevention
So you’re ok with a status effect having zero potential value for an entire trial? Ok. I’m not even proposing anything crazy my man.
Exhaustion perks and addons already counter a huge chunk of perks which some are several of the best, also perks inducing it already have an extra effect so they will always affect people not running them anyway.
Yes. Exhaustion only exists in the first place to limit the use of very strong chase related perks. Plus the chances of most survivors running an exhaustion perk are very high, due to how powerful they are.
They're essentially the survivor equivalent of a Hex, strong perk, limited use.
That said I'd also be ok if they added a minor setback to exhaustion; slower vault speed.
whoa whoa,are you honestly going to compare exhaustion perks to hexes in terms of usage limits? One that comes back every 45 seconds you're not sprinting vs one that can be disabled 30 seconds into a match and gone forever?
Exhaustion added to game because people used SB, BL etc together and they were so strong chase perks. Exhaustion does not need any change and your idea is just nerf for all exhaustion perks.
Exhausted Survivors could vault Windows and Pallets 0.25% slower, depending on the duration of the Exhaustion Status Effect, so something like Fearmonger wouldn't slow a Survivor down as much as a Tier 1 Sprint Burst, for example
In as much as they're perks that without their limiting factors would be too strong? Yes.
Of course they're not exactly the same.
I have a hard time considering third seal and dead hard anywhere near each other in terms of potency but sure.
...Ok?
It seems like you're twisting my point into something it's not just so you have something to disagree with.
"Ants and Bears each require food to live."
"Woah woah woah! Are you claiming ants and bears are even remotely similar?!"
Hex: The Third Seal is amazing on Artist, and Artist counters Dead Hard, so yes, they're on the same level
Third seal is a hex perk that is so weak it does not even remotely give enough benefit to justify its limitation. Dead Hard can be used to extend chases to the point of becoming a time sink after it would have otherwise already been over. Not only that, but there can be situations where it can have zero counterplay (the classic deadhard for distance) AND it comes back naturally while doing your primary objective (gens) or even just not sprinting. it can be used plenty of times with that same level of impact as well.
They don't have much in common except that they are both perks in the game dead by daylight.
I mean if you honestly believe that, you do you.
I tend to agree, but I think there are alternatives.
In truth, there are only 3 exhaustion perks in the game for the killer: Fearmonger, Blood Echo, and the new one coming out with the future chapter.
All perks have additional effects other than exhaustion.
Exhaustion itself is like an in-born cooldown to limit the use of powerful perks.
That means that, by merit, in order for exhaustion to have no effect in a match, survivors must not bring any of the more powerful perk options (which is uncommon indeed)
It's a lot like Distortion or Calm Spirit - which are highly dependent on Killer perks and powers to find value.
Having a tiny amount of labored breathing volume isn't so bad, so I don't have a problem with it - but it's not at all necessary to solve a problem, because I disagree that there's a problem in the first place.
If it ever gets a update it would only make vigil more required
I would actually like Vigil to be buffed to allow exhaustion recovery while running (at, let’s say, half rate). It would reward survivors who can last very long in chase. It’s hardly worth using outside of Sprint Burst and Head On squads right now due to this limitation. And Mindbreaker hard counters it.
And if you change third seal to either ruin or devour hope and dead hard vs smash hit?
Exhaustion isnt supposed to have an effect on survivors. It originates as limitation on particular perks and thats the only thing it should have an effect on. You completely lack logic.
I gave logical reasoning in the post, if you cared to read it. But at least I won't forever be remembered as the guy who falsely accused Otz of exploits!
Exhaustion is the only status effect in the game that is reliant on a survivor bringing an exhaustion perk for it to even effect them. If a survivor has no exhaustion perk, it literally does nothing to them. Isn’t this a design flaw?
To answer your question, no, it’s not a design flaw. It’s ok to have perks that are intended to counteract opposing perks that the other players may or may not actually use.
A brand new episode of: "HOW TO MAKE SURVIVOR EVEN MORE MISERABLE THAN IT ALREADY IS!"
Starring: People who ultimately want to end up playing against bots
I'm a survivor main. If you think minorly louder groans of pain at a degrading rate while exhausted makes your survivor experience "even more miserable".. you probably have a lot bigger problems in your core survivor gameplay style.
I doubt you are.
In any event, this is completely uncalled for, and there's definitely way bigger issues to address before we start adding random passive effects to survivor, whether or not they're using the perk that could at least give you some benefit out of it. Instead they should, you know, maybe fix actually relevant issues like the crashes, map layouts, and horrible latency and hitboxes that translate into impossible long arm hits.
I agree, but also I don't.
I think it could certainly receive a change, but the hemorrhage change was a buff, so I think exhaustion change should also be a buff.
I'm thinking something like:
Exhaustion recovers 33% slower while repairing a generator or healing. Increases the odds of skill checks by 10%. Increases the great success area for skill checks by 20%.
Exhaustion recovers 25% faster while resting inside a locker.
Why, because of my Nurse profile pic? Ok dude. 😂
Of course there are much larger game issues. Doesn't mean we can't suggest and call for changes in minor areas as well.
Haemorrhage received a flat buff, which is what I'm also proposing for exhaustion. What you're proposing is more of a rework.. buff + nerf at the same time.
When do you ever enter a trial with 4 survivors not running exhaustion perks? Most people run them so this really ain't an issue.
Heck if you somehow find a game without any of them you should be thankful.
In this case, kind of, yea. A survivor is already at a small "disadvantage" by not using an exhaustion perk in the first place. That, in my opinion, makes up for the killer not getting any value out of any exhaustion-causing perk or add-on they might bring. But the reality of the situation is that the vast majority of survivors use an exhaustion perk in their games (going against 4 survivors without an exhaustion perk is astronomically rare), so even if a killer goes up against the occasional survivor with no exhaustion perk, the killer will still probably get (rather exceptional) value from their exhaustion-causing perk or add-on against the other 3 survivors.
That's why I don't think Exhaustion in particular needs a secondary effect. However, I believe Blindness is a good example of a status effect so weak that I'd be in favor of making it do more, but that's not the topic at the moment.
Honestly I think it would be nice if all status effects had some sort of visual or audio cue even if subtle.
This is the kind of mentality that is responsible for the current meta. You are not at an automatic disadvantage. They are not must haves to escape a trial.
OK, but you are not proposing buff at all, but a debuff.
Also, because exhaustion has no effect, adding any effect, including an stridor like effect is already a rework.
I'm simply trying to make it into something that acts as a buff for survivors.
My proposition has no debuff. The extended exhaustion when healing or repairing is to give survivors the chance to take advantage of the skill check buff, and ultimately they would have control over what they want.
Ok, escaped from than mean killer, let's smash those gens or get me patched up real quick. Or, damn I gotta get back to the killer, I'll just rest on this locker here for a spell so I can go back to prevent the killer from slaughtering my chase challenged team mates.
Since all of this activates on exhaustion, no exhaustion perk means, nothing of this matters.
I think we're just confusing each other. When I said buff, I meant buff to the status effect. What I proposed is a small nerf to the survivor side, and small buff to the killer side. Exhaustion is just slightly more punishing. Does that make sense?
Yes, I understood that, that's why I initially said that while I agreed (that a change was needed), I also didn't agree (the change should not be a buff for killer, debuff for survivor).
The hemorrhage change was a buff for killer. An exhaustion change should be a buff to survivor.
And, just to clarify, I'm a near absolute killer main.
I'm mixed on this one.
In principle, I like the idea of Exhaustion offering some value even against Survivors that don't utilize exhaustion perks.
However I tend to agree with the sentiment that this is a solution in search of a problem.
It might be better to take perks that inflict only exhaustion and add to them, like how Blindness was added to Fearmonger.
Being exhausted reduces your fast vault speed by 10%.
There we go. You buy some time in a chase, or avoid a chase entirely, and in exchange you're very slightly hindered in one potential part of the loop.
Would still consider smash hit better than either since, as the original point was, it can't be disabled entirely at the beginning of a match.
My argument is that hex perks have a MASSIVE risk to pair with their lukewarm-to-decent reward, while exhaustion perks are a much more minor risk vs a decent to great reward. You could argue a perk like devour hope has a massive reward at its highest levels, but the survivors not only can disable it before it gets any momentum, the momentum itself warns survivors to get rid of it. Similar issue with Pentimento, which is why going for the 5 stack on that is pretty much a surefire way to lose games.
Exhaustion was implemented because people figured out you could sprint burst then balanced landing away to another time. Luckily it was brought in when feng released but I would like an overall exhaustion nerf as the mechanic has proven to be stupid powerful when all 4 survivors run it to basically win the game from the time bought from it.
the idea of them breathing louder while its active sounds interesting
Not at the beginning maybe, but at the time YOU come to use it, all pallets might already be gone, so it is disabled just the way a hex is.
And if the hex aspect was the point, why did you choose the weakest hex perk compared to the strongest exhaustion perk? That seems deliberate, you know.
Yes, hexes can be found, but its not too seldom that smash hit, balance landing or even lite dont do anything, depending on the map and the game progress. But there are also games where hexes are found so late, they already changed the outcome of the game, which is a factor you choose to ignore.
Are people really upset that OP is suggesting Exhausted causing Survivors to breathe louder? Any good Killer doesn't need to listen to noise to know where Survivors are, they just need common sense and to watch for repetition. I think the breathing louder aspect is a good idea that hardly affects much, while also making sense with what exhaustion does to the human body.
While I see where you're coming from I think it would be a bad idea. I almost never run exhaustion perks and would feel pretty annoyed that I now have an extra thing to mange because so many people run Dead Hard.
If you don’t run exhaustion perks anyways, this would hardly effect you. Heck, this change barely effects exhaustion perk users. It’s just about having the status effect do something to all survivors, regardless of their load out. It would be like mangled only being applied to survivors who bring a medkit or healing perk(s). Well, why am I going to bring it if it might not do anything at all? Same idea here for a killer with exhaustion-causing perks or add-ons.
This also isn’t exclusively about Dead Hard (not mentioned in my post), but exhaustion as a whole/status effect.
the difference between hexes and exhaustion perks is that hexes effect the trial as a whole, giving very strong effects, but can be removed entirely, while exhaustion effects one survivor, during chase, and its something the killer always has to deal with. the downside of hexes is how easily they can be removed. whats the downside of an exhaustion perk?
That they can only be used once every 40s and share a resource so you're not chaining multiples together.
Of course they're not required to escape; you're the one assuming people think like this. But you can't honestly say that choosing not to include at least one of a type of strongest perk in the game in your build doesn't put you at a disadvantage compared to the survivor that is using an exhaustion perk.
Choosing to bring weaker perks puts you at a disadvantage. It's not rocket science. Doesn't mean they're necessary to win all the time, but not bringing the strongest perks undeniably makes it harder. And whether you choose to run strong perks or not, it's perfectly fine either way.
I assume that based on the number of people I see use Dead Hard in dumb ways, or I can trick into using Dead Hard just by looking upward. They aren't getting any value from Dead Hard and just bringing it doesn't make it "better" than every alternative. For these people its a wasted perk slot.
Every trial is almost guaranteed to have exhaustion perks, the vast majority of the time all 4 survivors will have one. But if a survivor doesn't, then the killer already has a huge advantage.
It is absolutely not a "design flaw."
The hexes are found early or late depending on rng, but it is entirely up to the survivors whether they survive or not. There is nothing the killer can do to disable exhaustion perks, short of perks or addons that can temporarily block them (which is part of why those addons are strong)
I used those two extremes as an example because they emphasize the lack of pairity between the two systems in the quote i was responding to. The usage limits between the two systems, as well as their risk reward ratios, are wildly different.