DAVID KING IS OFFICIALLY GAY
https://twitter.com/DeadByBHVR/status/1519330593733021696?s=20&t=XS9IEADnHKZnTlflubMYHQ
References:............................................................................................................................................36
^ For those of you who don’t think this isn’t important at all. It’s a thesis that got the highest pass on why representation in media is important.
Lastly, before it’s brought up again:
Courtesy of @GoodBoyKaru .
Comments
There was no change though. Just Expansion which happened it literally any tome story in all past 10 rifts.
actually in some of them there were changes to the initial backstory - iirc for Legion there is contradicting stuff. But… guess which people haven’t complained about that?
So what? I don't want to play a gay character. Is someone gonna force me to use David?
Please behave respectfully towards others on this discussion - thank you.
I have said this and will say it again...Representation is important, there's a very good link here on the opening post explaining why, for those who do not understand.
And with regards to any other characters that may or may not be part of a minority group as well as future new characters - that remains to be seen.
And you proudly proclaim this without seeing the problems..? So you're either ignorant or antagonistic and I don't know which is the better of the 2
Similar opinions there, you both composed your answers with better rather than necessary. (Found that interesting)
Neither of you mentions any negative aspect on the reveal yet,
What happens to players that felt David as their choice to represent themselves as?
necessary was only some kind of inclusion of an LGBTQ+ character because of what they have said before and how they have treated I LGBTQ+ topics different to heterosexual topics.
There is not much negative going on here. Sure, the tweet wasn’t necessary from my point of view but still I see why they did it and there are valid reasons for it.
There will never be a character fully representing a real person in all aspects. David being revealed as gay doesn’t change the character at all. If the sole reason someone chose David as representation because he wasn’t gay then, well, there was never confirmation that he wasn’t gay to begin with and we are not entitled to only having the backstory and nothing else added to the lore of any character. Tome story’s adding new traits, relationships, experiences etc have been a thing for a while now. Also there are plenty of other chars to choose from. Frankly, the character model reworks were far more changing in that regard and while there have been criticism for those it was on a different level than what we are seeing here.
Well guess what, you don't have to play a character that represents you. Feng didn't represent me, I mained her in 2019. Nea didn't represent me, she was one of my mains. Meg didn't represent me, she was one of my mains. Nancy didn't represent me, she was one of my mains. Jill doesn't represent me, she is my main.
Gay people never had a character to represent them, yet they still played. So find a way to realize that if you need to play cishet straight masculine men to feel male, that's a you problem and not BHVR's
It means you people pitch a fit when something doesn’t go your way. You’ve had plenty of confirmed heterosexual characters in gaming but now that one character turns out gay you want to throw a tantrum. Me being an asexual, you don’t see me complaining when there aren’t any confirmed asexual characters in DBD.
If you don't wish to play as a particular character you are not being forced to. We have plenty of other survivors in this game.
As a gay guy I think it was great. David is one of the original survivors and a pretty popular one at that. I think its much better than making a survivor just for them to be "the gay one" where you can brush off their entire backstory and existence as you reduce it down to them being the "token gay".
This also is not a "retcon" of David's lore. It can only be a retcon if we have a documented history of every thing that happened to him in his life and they took out a portion and replaced it with something else. That's not what happened. We're learning more about him that we didn't know before.
A lot of gay men growing up wind up with girlfriends for some reason or another throughout their life, I had them to back when I was in high school and freshman year in college while still trying to figure myself out. All it does it make him feel more real and relatable to me. Thank you Behaviour.
I know, I told them I switched to Jeff and it made some people angry.
I'm not even complaining(much) about the huge loss of time invested into farming for David, or the wasted money on cosmetics. Just pushing back against the narrative that no harm was done with this decision.
No harm was done. Your homophobia is self inflicted.
That's cool bruh, people can read and judge however they want, I even said I wouldn't care if they made a new character instead.
This "everyone who doesn't agree with me is a homophobe" isn't a healthy approach or productive, but if it makes you feel better have at it.
No one was angry because you said you switched the character.
what people pointed out is how you were acting up like you do now: wasted money on cosmetic? Really? Nothing about David’s appearance changed at all. He is still the very same character and nothing was changed about him.
I’m still waiting for Kate with a cowboy hat
You don’t have r to play as someone that represents you tho. I’m a dude and I play as Claire and Jill.
Well we ended agreeing that it was not necessary to be David, which is more than i could have asked for.
Bear in mind that David sexuality not being specified was representative of more sexualities before than now.
There is no single argument there on why David is better choice than a new character.
I encourage you to take a deep breath before answering, you are not debating with someone who is gonna fall for provocations.
Even if you might be biased i understand that you might like the anticipation of a character that represents not only your sexuality but your story around it.
This is in essence what i'm refeering to, there might be people out there that were not Gay that could relate to David until this point aswell.
Attachment to the fictional character.
Obviously.
Well, I'm not attached. I just appreciate their efforts here and I don't have a problem with David's coming out as it were. I actually main Felix as a survivor because my boyfriend thinks I look like him.
But this isn't a thing anyone should have a problem with and I am wholly unconcerned with homophobes who feel like they have to see David differently or can't play as him because of this.
If you look like Felix, please do not tell Hunnybear on Twitter! They're already obsessed with Felix as it is.
There is no single argument there on why David is better choice than a new character.
Actually, there are many arguments, some a little above your comment. Let me tell you a few:
1. An LGBT character locked behind a paywall would cause outrage
2. A new character based around being LGBT would simply feel, let's say, exaggerated. It would make it seem their whole personality. You know, it screams tokenism.
3. The new piece of story fits PERFECTLY into David's lore and completes it entirely.
"There is no single argument there on why David is better choice than a new character."
Yes, there is. And they have been provided numerous times over all 15 pages of this thread. You just, apparently, seem to have selective vision and a superiority complex.
exactly this tbh. Peanits gave a very good answer based around this question last week.
Also David's Lore is explained so well, it really is just a natural progression for this character.
And we're not saying that David will be the only representation in the game, there are many other characters that their Lore hasn't been fully revealed yet, so there could be many more to come - as well as new characters.
Can you do me a favour and pass a message to the lore team that this time around they genuinely did fantastically?
I’m rooting for Yui to be the next!
If social controversy was going to happen either way and the new character can more or less be Representative of the Gay stereotype that David is, are these strong arguments?
Guys... i said "there", i was refeering to Pukenplag's answer, not that there might not be any argument anywhere else...
Guess the irony of your answer speaks for itself?
Would be to much to ask for a link?
I will <3
Peanits response for those that are interested.
Thank you
If it were me, I'd find it odd to make a character gay when i myself had no intention of making them gay beforehand. I'd make a new character instead of randomly making them gay to have more representation in my media. Whether I can expand their lore to make it make sense or not.
I also am not a fan of unnecessary romantic plot points. Straight or gay. Another game I played had that and I just didn't like it, felt forced and it was a straight one too.
No one ever said it was necessary that it was David. But Peanits comment also speaks for itself, there are not that many free original characters and the way they have written it it’s very well and natural, incorporating past lore and tying in loose ends.
could of course have happened with another free character and could have ended as good as with David. But chances are those that are now complaining about David would just complain about any other character as well.
also we may have less representative potential for David, but more definitive representation in the whole game. And these are not avatars, we have fully fleshed out characters, with story’s already told and many story’s yet to be told.
You don’t know if there was intention for him being gay before or not. You are just assuming he must have been straight, but that’s your head canon.
they haven’t chosen David randomly. They have discussed their choices and decided for David as they thought it was fitting.
romantic plots there have been since Nurse‘s release. If you never complained before about it don’t start now when it’s finally not a heterosexual relationship. That seems suspicious.
As an LGBTQ person, I don't know if this will ever sit quite right with me. But I only speak for myself, as an individual of this community, so these are my thoughts. Feel free to take them or leave them.
On the positive side, I appreciate the explanation and thought that was put into it. I think self-discovery after living a certain way makes for good character development. It's also great to consult about LGBTQ experiences.
On the negative side, if it wasn't your intentions for the character at the outset, I don't think it can ever be truly genuine. Having the equivalent of a "coming out announcement" also seems strange and placating. In my eyes, the best representation simply exists without pomp and circumstance.
On the REALLY negative side, David King is not the "first LGBTQIA2+ character" in the game and the fact that this is missed is actually kind of devastating. The "I" in the full acronym used in the announcement stands for "intersex." If you've read Koji Suzuki's Ring novel you would know that Sadako Yamamura is in-fact intersex, as revealed at the climax of the story when Kazuyuki Asakawa and Ryuji Takayama discover the origins of the curse with Sadako's death at the hands of Dr. Nagao (referenced in Part 3, Ch. 11). The film adaptations favored erasure of Sadako's intersex identity, an integral part of the novel's depiction of Sadako as a proxy for the AIDs pandemic, and themes of trans panic and homophobia (though the book is a product of its time/cultural climate and thus such elements were presented negatively in the context of the story).
This was really a missed opportunity to return to the source material of the Ring and present Sadako as the face LGBTQIA2+ inclusiveness being sought and helping to restore her image as the intersex character that she is.
First of all: your negative side is the first time it’s formulated in a respectful and valid way. I have to disagree as tomes are in general always adding new experiences, struggles, relationships, etc to a character but i still see where you are coming from.
on Sadako: I think they meant first original created LGBTQIA2+ character by BHVR. Otherwise we do have next to Sadako also Chatterer and the CryptTV monsters/characters as legendary characters as well. But it’s worth noting in these topics anyways!
On your third point, you're wrong there in two ways.
Chatterer is gay, I believe. He precedes Sadako. Additionally, that's not the version of Sadako we have in-game. 'Our' Sadako, despite the marketing, is largely based on the Japanese movie, where the whole intersex thing was never established.
That's fair. I am not familiar with the Hellraiser IP beyond recognizing Pinhead's appearance, so I didn't want to speak to something I was unsure of. But great point of that being the case.
Also, I wasn't explicit to say it, but I was implying that by going with the movie canon over the novel, they were choosing the portrayal which commits LGBTQ erasure, rather than embracing material that contained it, which kind of flies in the face of inclusivity. But it may have been a condition for use of the character by the rights holders, sadly.
I always try my best to as objective as I can, so thanks for that acknowledgement!
I agree, they may have indeed meant the first original.
Thank you.
No one said it, but it's hard not to interpretate it due to some responses i got.
Peanits comment is not much different than what i have been seeing here. I agree to avoiding social controversy as i can assume negative impact on BHVR.
Yet i fail to see which was the rush. A new character could have been slowly or differently developt, maybe with hints about possible sexuality or a short term reveal.
Definetly an abrupt announcement doesn't feel like the best course of action to avoid controversy on the first place either.
Emotional attachment to digital characters is an interesting subject, you might want to take a look at it.
Which rush are you referring to?
they announced in June 2020 that there will be no further exclusion of LGBTQ+ topics. We know a complement new character needs around 9-12 months of preparation/work before release. Tome story’s should not need much longer as there is more lore but many things as perks, character model etc already exist. The GaymerX collaboration was also announced long ago (I think it’s been over a year).
there has not been any rush. They deliberately chose David King with very likely plenty of discussions if they should start with a new or existing character. And it was and still is a possibility for other existing characters to get tome story’s about their sexual orientation/identity. This one is just a milestone as the first.
and attachment to what? David King has never been confirmed to not be gay. Head canon is and stays head canon and should not limit the creators in what they want to do with their characters. You can of course criticize their execution, but let’s be honest here: the story is well written, especially compared to other tome stories.
well said @MandyTalk and this great job.
Very well said. I've notice this is how a lot of people feel about it. It seems like every time something like this happens it must be presented as some bold thing that must be admired and respected as such. This felt completely random. It didn't feel genuine at all. Its like the opportunity to not just do it but announce you're doing it must be done so all eyes on you can see how much you care about what you did. If someone wants to make a gay video game character then make a gay video game character. Don't act like you did some great act of representation for doing so.
Just ignore people who throw the homophobe label at you because they don't like your dissenting opinion about something. They've already proven they're not interested in anything you have to say at that point. You're not a homophobe. People can like what they want and choose not to play anything for whatever reason. Its really no one's business.
It could have been premeditated from day 1.
How many years have players been without even a hint? How is that good character development?
If it takes months to develop a new character, how it is not rushing in comparison?
Don't downplay emotional attachment to a character, i have mentioned it a few times for you to imply there was nothing to be attached in the first place.
Last time, many players could feel Identified as David than now can't. Yes sexuality-wise. Yes matters to probably more than are wiling to voice it.
Do you find that to be nothing?
They are already limiting themselves by acting based on social controversy (Peanits comment), which is far worse due to alienating the portion of the playerbase that grew attachment to pre-reveal David over all those years...
feels random
but it isnt. They made a deliberate choice and they needed almost two years to decide which is their first rep. They had consultants at their side. And we just don’t know if David has always been supposed to be gay or not.
It didn’t feel genuine […] they announced it
They announced it as a follow up to the announcement of them not further excluding LGBTQ+ topics and the announcement of collaborating with GaymerX. It wouldn’t feel genuine if they completely stayed silent after those announcements. You can say that it would have felt better if they waited until the whole story was available to the playerbase in-game and the timing of the announcement just makes it feel not genuine. But an announcement was already to be expected since June 2020.
don’t act like those arguments would determine if the representation was done well or not. Judge the story, judge the character. And there, surprisingly, everything fits well.
Reception matters too when things like this happen. Yea people are receiving it well and others aren't. When people say this feels random or it doesn't sit well with them they are being honest about that. When people from the very community you're trying to represent are not receiving this well that tells me theres a problem with it. It also tells me not everyone in that community thinks alike and criticism from them is a good thing. Everything does not fit well with this. I can promise you I am not the only one who if asked if they think David King is gay before this happened would undoubtedly say no. There just was nothing there over the years to imply this about him. There are reasons why this doesn't make sense to a lot of people. Be reasonable and try to understand how this does not fit well and does in fact feel very random.
Hmm, so because YOU don't feel it's necessary and don't want it, it shouldn't happen? Jeez, do you have any idea just how selfish and entitled you sound? Grow up, seriously.
So you want to assume all the other characters are straight, but you also don't think representation or mentioning sexuality of characters in a video game is necessary. Which is it? You contradict yourself. What a mess.
How do you know what their intention was at the beginning, and why does it matter so much to you? You have had answers to the 'points' you're making and you don't seem to be grasping it - just say you're mad at a character being confirmed to be gay and move on, it's honestly cringeworthy how you refuse to be educated on this.
Criticism that is constructive and has a basis other than ‚I Don’t like it‘ or ‚my head canon contradicts this‘ is completely valid and necessary.
but…
I can promise you I am not the only one who if asked if they think David King is gay before this happened would undoubtedly say no. There just was nothing there over the years to imply this about him.
this! This kind of thinking is one of the reasons representation outside of stereotypes matters so much! You can say you don’t like it all you want and I don’t care, but if your reasoning is you couldn’t tell David was gay before than you are showing that they definitely did the right thing and your criticism has no basis.
Its not necessary to mention they are straight either. My stance is leave it up to the consumer to decide what they want each character to be. If someone wants to believe the entire roster is gay, so what? Let them. Also when I said I will assume the rest are straight that was me wondering why they haven't come out and said it yet especially for the older characters. Why wait? Why not come out and tell us what the sexuality of a few other survivors are now? Or are we supposed to be left in the dark about characters we know and love for a long time now? Why does this have to be about representation instead of just telling a story about a fictional character?