Should Nurse's attacks be Special attacks?
I know why they're not Special attacks, but with the advent of abominations such as Starstruck Nurse, I thought I'd hear what everyone else has to say.
When I asked, I was given 3 reasons why Nurse's attacks are basic.
1) She is so reliant on her blinks that she would otherwise functionally have no basic attack
2) While having some small differences, her post-blink lunges are otherwise nearly identical to a basic attack
3) She pre-dates the special/basic attack distinction. Going back to change it causes "issues." This is an assumption, but I THINK we saw a glimpse of this with how buggy her Post-Blink grab cancel was (to the point she got disabled even).
But should they go through the effort anyway? I look forward to seeing your reasoning down below.
Comments
A nurse should never get a hit while walking, shes slower than survivors...
This is just limited loads of perks from her and I'm not about that life.
I get bored of nurse, I verse her too much so I'd rather not see even less variation in perks used as well.
I hate limitations! And we should do everything we can to remove them.
Devour Hope doesn't notify on special attacks.
Hope we're not cherry-picking what stats we follow, SuzuKR.
"Also it makes completely zero sense mechanically. It’s not a special attack, because she doesn’t attack with the blink. Blinks are exclusively a movement tool. She just attacks regularly after she moves. Compare this to someone like Bubba, who attacks WITH the chainsaw. Or Blight, who attacks WITH the Rush."
Blight and Nurse both attack with their main weapon after use of their power and before their fatigue.
People on the internet disagreed with that. Showing that people think that the devs shouldn't follow stats such as kill rates without context.
Some perks shouldn't have basic attack requirements anyway, like Surge and Sloppy Butcher. Exposal perks definitely should, and that is probably what people want gone when they say Nurse shouldn't have basic attacks. I like someone's idea of only making the first blink a basic attack, but chain blinks are special attacks so you have to try harder for that insta-down. Then again, maybe she could be nerfed and people could just deal with it, and then some exposal perks could be buffed to work better with normal killers, and the basic attack system can be reworked for some weaker perks.
You end Spirit and Wraith’s power to attack with them. Their power is turning invisible/cloaking, respectively. It’s just they have accelerated speed for a small interval after ending the power. Same with Nurse. You blink, finish moving, and then now are basically just standing still in place at the end destination. Your power is over right now unless you go for a chain blink. Her power lasts in intervals of each blink. After said blink ends, she has a chance to attack instead of going for another blink.
Compare this to Blight. You cannot attack at all in any proximity to his power EXCEPT either after completely fatiguing (out of power), or while actively Rushing WITH his power. The comparative example to Nurse here would be if Blight could attack after losing all momentum from the Rush/before Rushing again.
Sure, why not? Works for wraith and nurse and billy.
More than getting that change reverted after a week cant happen lol.
The VODs are completely publicly available on Twitch and YouTube. I am going off of players of even skill facing off against each other in an evenly-sided map. Hope you’re doing your research before choosing to be snarky, eleventbh.
Refer to this:
Because all perks are already viable on her, right?
Okay, I’ll bite. How is Nurse in the “spot of perfect balance”? She’s the best killer in the game who completely disregards all defenses and has extremely limited counterplay other than breaking LOS and guessing.
Especially now because she’s bugged not just with the range add-one but also due to the fact that she attacks and swings before you’re even physically able to see her.
Yeah, I’m sorry but her power is absolutely not balanced and never will be but we’ve al just accepted that because, well…it’s Nurse.
Perfect balance means strongest killer apparently. They also go off of tournaments for balancing statistics so I'm not surprised.
Mindgaming is the most crucial aspect of chase no matter what. Breaking LOS is a method to assist with that. Mindgaming is more skillful than having a chase predetermined based off RNG/factors out of either side’s control.
For instance. You are in a dead zone versus a standard 115% killer. There is more or less completely zero you can do. They will just walk up and that is that. Another example. The standard 115 is at an enormously strong setup, such as a long wall jungle gym. There is next to no way for the killer to mindgame in a way the survivor cannot bypass, as the tile is setup in a way that allows the survivor to stay at a safe location with multiple optimal routes either way the killer commits. As such, at high levels, it will take a tremendous amount of time to go through. Again, next to nothing one side can do about it. The factors are already predetermined.
Now, you have Nurse. It is frankly impossible for her to walk up unless the survivor makes a horrible mistake (outside of super niche crap add-ons). So even in a dead zone, she still has to correctly mindgame to land the blink. If she wins, she lands it. If she fails, she doesn’t. But also the same with any other tile. Even at enormously strong setups, it comes down to player skill in mindgame vs mindgame, not map RNG favoring one side overwhelmingly.
Bugs should be fixed. They are not relevant to balance discussions, because they are going to be fixed/aren’t intended.
Have you considered that Nurse and Blight are where they should be and the others are all subpar to varying extents is what’s causing the bias? Also I’m not going off only tournaments. I don’t know why you got that idea. Also even in tournaments, chases still happen, and god-level survivors versus god-level Nurses perform just fine at mindgaming. Everything else in competitive is pretty much useless for discussion of regular DBD, but the chases serve as clear proof even the highest skill players can be beaten back evenly.
Can you specify what VODS you were talking about? Sorry for misunderstanding, I only see tournaments used to justify Nurse's balance at high level play. I believe Blight and Nurse are fine with their basekit, just that perks/addons can make them unbalanced for the average survivor team.
Please reference what stats you are referring to.
People saying nurse should be nerfrd obviously never played her because they do not understand how difficult it is to play her. Any decent survivor can easily avoid her attacks. Only top tier nurse spammers are tough. Any average killer is easy when playing with nurse
Yep! Some are more viable than others though. Why do you want to limit her perk options?
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I mean yeah, Blight counts as a special attack when lethal rushing, why would nurse's blink attacks be an exception? Especially given she's the strongest killer in the game and learning her isn't nearly as hard as people say.
What will it change? Well, the big one would be exposed perks wouldn't work. Is that a big deal? No. Because regular nurses that don't suck will down people as fast as most killers would with the exposed perks anyway.
It may hurt build diversity but there is little to no diversity when facing a Nurse. Either she's good and your options are mind gimmicks at best, or she's bad and you have another clip to your 5 views montage. Also let's face it, build diversity is a meme. You're getting corrupt and at least two extra gen regress perks with most nurses lmao.
Christ survivors love to complain about everything.
My way of seeing it is to declare it a special attack, it can't be similar to a basic attack. I think Blight is a perfect example. While it definitely is close to a basic attack, the base ways it functions are different. Nurse's function nearly identically to a basic attack, and so I don't know why the devs should take the effort to classify it as such when it takes them months or years to change simple numbers for killers.
"you just have to mindgame to avoid the hits." man thats some good bait, nearly fell for it ahah
Yeah because God forbid the community finds a problem with the only killer that can clip through walls being able to have easy access to insta down perks as well.
Don't flock around someone who's downed then.
If everyone is on a generator star-struck can literally do nothing when survivors run to the corner of the map and get downed so must be a low skill MMR thing.
just remove her recharge + range addons and nurse will be more bearable. nurses only play with these addons and its awful to verse against. also, make her fatigue time after the first blink longer, and who knows, nurse will finally be "perfectly balanced" 😎
Just to clarify, are you looking for extremely good players versus extremely good players? Or just random average players versus other random average players?
We could make Nurse Lunge special and buff the named perks to compensate, for example. Like what was done with Third seal, make Surge and Sloppy work with special attacks as well. With Surge/Jolt, I think thats unproblematic, since there's still the cooldown. With Sloppy, it might be too much for certain killers (Legion) and maybe would have to be toned down a bit.
That approach would allow to nerf the problematic perk synergies (aka exposed perks), but keep the other perk synergies in tact. And it would increase the synergies of said perks with other killers.
I mean yeah but then they would need to make different affects for several addons. Twins has a hemorrhage and mangled addon so they would need to do something different.
Why give them a different effect? If you have some sloppy like addons, you are free to choose whether you want the perk and some ohter addons, or the addons and some other perk. I actually like that on Wraith, the budget sloppy addons allows you to use the perk slot for something else.
Exposed synergy isn't problematic.
That's a little uncalled for. I just had a thought and wanted opinions. I'm not complaining nor am I picking sides.
Yes assuming it's after a blink. Blights should too if it's immediately after the first bounce.
"Disregards alll defences"
Say that to the "comp" survivors who know how to beat her.
You are complaining, you made a thread with hidden nerf motives.
You can smell it from a mile away, survivors always suggest "changing" something which ultimately would make nurse crap which is their ultimate goal.
“Comp” survivors make up less than 1% of the playerbase. You can’t use the “comp” excuse as a way of making Nurse seem balanced in public matches when almost every player is casual.
And yes she does disregard all defenses even in comp matches, they just plow through gens while the killer camps. That’s a comp match. We are talking strictly public matches, ya know which is where the game should be balanced around.
There are much more extremely casual MegHeads than there are sweaty comp teams
Now, I see that there is likely no changing your mind. I can respect that, and I would appreciate the same amount of respect in return. Thank you.
I like this idea.
i was thinking along the lines, how a lot of nurses blink to where they Last saw the survivor first. then follow up with a second. so that's what I meant by riskier plays.
i still dont know if this would a really bad nerf. but at least it would make expose perks less Effect on her
I've seen good players in a SWF against Nurses in tournaments so I guess if there is an example of high level play in pubs I would like to see it. When it comes to balance I don't think BHVR cares too much about them though, they care more about the average player.
Technically I can run Bamboozle, Enduring, Spirit Fury and Brutal Strength for example, but it would be ironically. I am able to run them if I want to though. Just like I could still run a perk with basic attack requirements if it was nerfed in some way, even if it required something like having to get a hit on the first blink, which would still be much more useful than the build mentioned above. I don't want to limit her perk options for no reason, it just feels inconsistent balance wise to me to have even more of a lethal ability.
By the way I do not think she should be nerfed further than the example I mentioned (only 1st blink is basic attack) unless she had her base speed increased, just for the sake of fun. I like my Devour Hope on her.
It makes zero sense for a first blink attack to be considered a basic attack, but not a second or third blink attack. They all function exactly the same. Is she not going to have fatigue if you consider the first blink attack a basic attack?
Starstruck is one of the most counterable exposed perks that it’s laughable people have issue or trouble with it. You can only get hit by it by being greedy for protection hits or sabo plays.
Starstruck isn't the only exposing perk and I wasn't even talking about that. Also the idea wasn't mine, it just minorly fixes the problem people have of Nurses getting insta-downs easier than killers with basekit insta-downs and I like that more than making all blinks special attacks.
"Is she not going to have fatigue if you consider the first blink attack a special attack?" I said the first blink could be a basic attack, not special, so I assume that's what you meant. They are functionally different as they are called "blink" and "chain blink", and chain blinks are shorter and need to be activated after a normal blink. Lastly, if you meant "Is she not going to have fatigue if you consider the first blink attack a basic attack?", my answer is no. She already uses basic attacks that grant her fatigue, why would this be any different?
3 blinks which gives her a massively slow recharge, don't lie you aren't killer main.
Exposed isn’t a problem though on her.
yawn
omg, is this discussion of "how do we further nerf nurse but without making it obvious that we want to nerf her into the ground" still going on?
On one hand survivors are like "nerf NOED, it requires no skill", and then comes a killer that literally requires skill to get anywhere with her... and they want that nerfed too because they just don't want to learn how to juke this killer who doesn't have to walk around loops, etc.
The stats say otherwise, nurse has the lowest win and kill rate of all killers.
Which means she is actually needing a buff.
I did mean basic attack, and have corrected my post.
if she blinks it should cause she is using her abilty to hit... if its a normal launge attack should be m1 of course.