The killer community is destroying this game
5 games in a row I had a killer who went around slugging everyone and then just left everyone to bleee out. The next 3 games after that the killers I faced all face camped 1 survior all game. Killers are intentionally trying to ruin games to make people quit right now and the devs do nothing about it. Something needs to be done
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Weird. With crossplay on we should get the same matches. Maybe its your region or the time you are playing. Im playing EU and mostly in the afternoon/evening.
Ok, fine. Since being hooked or removed from the game is so unacceptable to Survivors, here's my fix:
Remove the hooks. Then do the following:
Killers have to down Survivors 4 or 5 times, then get to mori them. These are the replacement to hook states. (Of course, numbers can be changed for balancing)
If the Killer manages to down everyone at the same time (An All Incap), then everyone's 'Down State' progresses by 1. (IE: If someone was Downed 2 times & is on the ground, but everyone is downed before they are saved, they have now been Downed 3 times).
Perhaps everyone will stay Downed for 10-15 seconds; long enough for a Killer to go kick a gen.
At this time, everyone will get back up to Healthy, since everyone was Downed. If a Killer is near a Downed Survivor as they are healed from an All Incap; they are stunned and blinded.
Survivors leave no scratch marks for 10 seconds after an All Incap. (This is to 'reset' the game state, and prevent a Killer from camping one Survivor)
Either that, or the Killer gets to mori one of the Survivors, and the others get back up to Healthy. But that may encourage more slugging.
BUT! Survivors can no longer crawl; they have to be found by their fellow Survivors. This prevents crawling out a gate, since being 'Downed' is the new Hook State. Also; the Killer cannot carry Survivors anymore.
There is no Bleedout Timer, to avoid new camping. The Killer is expected to Down people and move on until he can Mori.
Adjust Gen speeds for this new gameplay.
That's the only way I can think of to remove camping & slugging while still keeping the match going and not removing Killer or Survivor agency. Plus; now moris have a more common use as the End State instead of being fluff.
Personally, I'd just make it so that Survivors can switch hooks and not die until the set amount of hooks for the Killer is reached. To make up for this, all Killers would be buffed to make that gameplay more viable.
Perhaps, once the hook counter is filled, the Killer then Moris them out of the game. Hook swapping can have a cooldown on it as well, so the Survivor must sit on the hook for a bit to give the Killer time to adjust and figure out where all the Survivors are going. This would allow something like Make Your Choice to still be viable.
Map sizes would also need to be reduced, but realistically, that's never happening.
Well, if you want to go the whole 'Don't remake the entire game' route, sure. 😋
Though gen speeds would also have to be increased, since it's nearly impossible for some Killers (via mechanics or player skill) to get 12 hooks in a normal match.
How would you handle Kobe attempts? Since I assume Struggling would be out (or Killers would just camp, like now); would Kobe attempts just fill their hook counter? Maybe 2 attempts = 1 counter?
The survivor community is destroying this game
5 games in a row I had survivors who split up around the map and then just rushed gens then left. The next 3 games after that the survivorsI faced all bullied the killr all game. Survivors are intentionally trying to ruin games to make people quit right now and the devs do nothing about it. Something needs to be done
Goes both ways, both sides can be asses, but that doesn't mean that one side in particular is destroying the game.
Hadn't thought about yeeting oneself off a hook. So, dunno. Maybe it would lock them on the hook for a bit if they fail?
Also, the gen speed thing honestly just needs a whole new thing added to it, like finding parts or fuel or whatever. Like, turn the game INTO A GAME, instead of M1 simulator.
Also, as stated before, killers overall would need some buffs in order to make 12 hooks more viable. That, or it wouldn't be 12 hooks per say. Perhaps, 8 hooks, and after that, the killer Moris the Survivors out of the game. So Moris would come in at the end of every match to signify the killer is on the final kill streak.
To further help with gen issues, I would make it so that 3 gens are locked at the beginning of the match, and stay locked until a gen is done. Then, one of the gens that was locked unlocks. Every time a gen is done, one unlocks. This would reduce the amount of wandering the Killer has to do. With that in mind, killer buffs wouldn't need to be as severe.
At this point, it's becoming a new game, but it already sounds a lot more fun :P
it's gone downhill for sure. I get hook trading morons, cowards that crouch doing nothing on the other side of the map as the killer, body blocking simps and killers that think they are a yoyo tied to their last hook because the survivors are generally dumb.
If survivors played smarter we could force them to play different but the fact is most people who play aren't just a couple of bricks shy of a full load.
The last person I tried to friend and play with after an alright game went afk after being the first hooked. Got them down they didn't move it seemed safe I healed them they stayed there. A couple minutes later they go down and then back up on the same hook.
the game was better when less people played
It’s much worse when the killers do it because they force a player to sit afk and not play the game. Surviors don’t force a killer to sit still and not play
Whenever i see posts like "5 games in a row" i can tell it's either a bait or someone needs attention. I played both sides since 2017 and if anything, almost EVERY round is different. You might get tunneled 2 games in a row if you're unlucky. But other then that you get a variety of killer playstyles. And that's the main reason i keep playing. You never know what you get...
In response to the opening post, the only time I've ever seen or had multiple games in a row with a killer that camps out the first hook to death is whenever I quit playing long enough to be deranked to 20.
Otherwise I only see it with salty killers mad they chased someone for too long.
Unbreakable
4 BBQ staxks is enough for me during the event, I let survivors go once I got it.
As a killer main, it's kind of debatable, but at the same time I'm understanding why people come to that conclusion. The killer as the power role of the game DOES control how much fun people have to an extent. However, not all killers play the same. I've recently starting playing survivor and let me tell you. I can kind of understand why some survivors think this, because there are just so many toxic killers, but the way I see it.... It's kind of an equilibrium. Survivors who think it's funny to sit by the gates and teabag till the last 1 second left after they beat a killer (One of the reason I refuse to go by the gates once they're open is because people who sit in it for longer than 5 seconds when they don't need to most likely just want to teabag cause haha funny), or follow them around and click flashlights to try to agitate them if they are struggling to get downs etc, things like these are what a killer then could take out on survivors next game. And as a result, those survivors can then become extremely toxic in the game after towards the next killer. It's an assault spiral. A chain effect
Both sides are equally bad. But at the same time, both sides have equally good.
Not every survivor teabags and is a jerk. Not every killer is a camper and a slugger/tunneler. I've had PLENTY of games where people are extremely kind after games. Sometimes, just bringing up a complement and trying to say something good, can really help. Saying dumb crap like "Gg Ez hAhA" at the end of the game is the quickest way of having the toxicity continue.
It's easier to just try to enjoy the game for what it is. And no matter what the ending is like, try to just say GG and move on. It's easier than trying to waste energy with people who have no intention of changing their mind at the end of a match.
Unless you bought them the console, the game, and they're living under your roof you have no right telling how killers should play. They decide how they want to play. Yeah it sucks but move on and find a New game.
Maybe I just know more about this game and/or am more honest than you? I play for both sides approximately equally. Here are my stats for this game:
https://dbd.onteh.net.au/playerstats/76561198123408293
What about you?
>I was addressing your complaint about gen-rushing.
I'm not complaining. I'm just explaining reasons for this behavior in most killers. I just, as it is customary to say here sometimes *adapted* and take as much fun from the game as I can take. Hoping for this only on myself and my skill. And on my trusted teammates. If I go to play solo, I’m not surprised if 8 matches out of 10 fail (which by the way does not always happen). Because in such games, most often at least 2 teammates are completed potatoes.
Most killers are forced to play hard because this is reality of balance. Not because they are eager to ruin someone's gaming experience.
>Survivors that just do gens then leave, end up with a ######### match. Sure they escape, but they achieved almost nothing toward any measureable goal
They too, like a killer, simply do their task in any way possible. They escape and are alive and they won. It's enough. They just turned out to be too strong for this killer. Maybe this is not the best implementation of gameplay, but this is a question for devs, not for survivors or killers. They all just take whatever they can from the matches.
I'll give a few examples in hot pursuit. My last matches for killer during the event.
Sometimes matches go like this
Survivor was downed again of his own stupidity (just stayed near the same hot gen, near which it was hooked, and farm his teammate right in front of my nose, after which I sawed both), decided that he would be tunnelled and DC. Although I was even going to leave him on the ground and follow the others. Others follow him and leaved too (3 SWF here). Fully ragequit.
Sometimes like this
Higher screen. Toxic brazently SWF made clicky-clicky and generally behaved like owners, in every possible way demonstrating to me how they are not afraid of me at all. I selected 4 gens on one side and just camped them in this area. Then slug three remaining ones.
Bottom. Sweaty guys making most of every pallet. And trying to deprive me of my killer ability by not drinking. 1 hook for 3 gens. Then I just forced them to drink, because without this they would not be able to safely approach the hook and save. Then hooked next one near the red fountain. And then I used these red fountains to maximum when they try to save. You see result. When survivors abuse everything they can and try to rob me of my ability, it's okay. When I force them to play according to my rules, I am bad, I am Russian, and they wish me death from cancer. Just because I'm not playing the game the way they want. Someone was talking about double standards here, huh?
And sometimes like this
This is a full-SWF. But I downed them much faster than gens were done. So I managed to hooked everyone twice and still had enough time. I could have just killed them all, but instead just down them a few times and let them raise each other. For farm the entire category. Then I let them all go. I saw them in my next lobby. And even pulled a cake from bloodweb for them.
So if I, as a killer, got everything I needed from a match and didn't see BM (Bad Manners), as you can see, I don't mind giving them a good game. But if gens fly quickly and I see that it is difficult to catch them or if they play toxic, then I play hard. Because otherwise they will leave me with nothing. Tough guys don't need indulgences. And I'm not a medium to know in advance what each specific survivor will be like. Therefore, I usually start hard. Otherwise, later, I won't have time. Strong survivors will not forgive you even 10 extra seconds. Each counts. These are the realities of killer game. Only then, if I see that I'm doing well, I can slow down and think about someone else's fun from the match. But even in this case, I am not obliged to do this and no one has the right to demand it. Because as far as I can see, no one of survivors almost ever does me any favors.
And this is not a question of killer's skill. Potentially, every survivor could just rush killer and leave him with nothing. This does not require anything supernatural. I myself have done this many times, playing in SWF. When I'm with 3 good survivors, we destroy 80-95% of killers in one evening. And it's not even because we have voice coordination. Simply because we know how to play this game. Even playing together, but without voice chat, we will not play much worse. And most survivors can do it. The whole problem, as I said, is only that now there is a huge number of weak survivors in the game. Who constantly make the wrong decisions in matches and don't know how to hold on for a long time in chase.
Or maybe you are just extremely self centered and vain.
And what am i supposed to do? The devs don't tell me ahead of time in the lobby that this is going to be a chill match, or that all 4 are solos and not a SWF sweat squad. Because of that, i have to assume everyone is a SWF sweat squad, or i get teabagged, clicky clicky and called racial slurs after the game. To be honest that last one happens regardless, but the point still stands.
Lol. Powerful argument. You just bombarded me with facts. I have no more questions for you.
I 100% blame this on BHVR for the event not the killers.
Here's the thing - As killer it's easier to quickly remove 2 people from the game to locate the Crown unless you get lucky and run into it. Not everyone has a lot of time to play so they need to resort to more efficient ways of making things easier. As for camping honestly more so likely the same boat but maybe some people don't like the event.
The pedestal thing is an interesting concept but honestly does anyone really like having to go into game as each character to get a specific crown? Pretty sure everyone could live without having to do that. The event should just be "Retrieve the Crown X amount of times during the event to unlock all Crowns for this side" like 5 times on each side. So you can play your perked out characters without ruining games and not worry about being weakened because of the event. Also would make it less tedious in general.
And yes I'll say it even from my bias as a killer player - Once you find the crown as survivor you should keep it even after death. There is indeed games where a killer will hard focus survivors with the golden aura. They're also much easier to find so sometimes I don't even blame the killer.
I don't know how people defend this event it will only get worse next year when there is 4 more characters on each side if they redo the same thing.
Since you didn't present an argument I didn't bother presenting one either, all I see from you is constant complaining filled with salty tears so far, but I have no more quesstions for you either, you are dismissed...
I think a lot of people are stuck on the destination rather than the journey, if that makes sense.
Many survivors deem escaping to be the most important 'win' condition.
Many killers believe that it's all about getting kills, in particular a 4K.
I happen to think there's a lot more to the game and try to play in interesting ways. Sure, I am not a great player and it's easy not to care about rank when I couldn't get to red ranks anyway, but I like the freedom of trying all kinds of fun builds with non-meta perks and doing fun stuff as killer rather than making every match an exercise of how great I am at hooking people out of matches.
Do you change up your build much? Seems boring to me but maybe this was just one day or something.
It’s the same thing with solo q. They say every game of solo w is horrible but if it was truly as bad as they say it is then I must be getting swf group’s nonstop the way they pound these gens out.
I have presented you with at least proof of my game on both sides and a huge gaming experience. Thanks to which I understand all these things. You apparently have nothing to show.
Yes, and I will clarify. Salty tears here from the author of the topic and from people like you. As I said, I just rely on my skill and take everything I can from matches. Without requiring someone to follow the mythical rules for me. All I did here was to explain why killers play "unfairly". Complaints imply that someone is demanding something from others. I do not demand. I rely only on myself.
I see potatoes like this in 50-80% of my solo matches. I wouldn't be surprised if you are one of them. This is reason for your defeats on survivors. Not "OP killers".
They just decided to fall three of them in the dead zone, where all pallets were spent. Saved them several times. Downed at the end trying to save another one. At the very least, potatoes were grateful and unhook me. Without BT. Survived only thanks to DS.
Are you talking about my perks in the screenshots? This is an assembly for "chill" playing. I listen to music and play without straining. Lightborn just because of this, an experienced killer does not need him. I will not hear steps of the running up survivor due to music and may skip flashlight save.
I don't always play sweating for a win. Sometimes relaxed, sometimes with fun assemblies.
I think the toxic survivors are destroying more. I'm tired of getting EZ EZ EZ you are bad after games where i dont happen to kill everyone.
Also kiddos when you type ez i hope you know you arent speaking english at that point? Its wrong learn to type.
I've been sitting in red ranks (either rank 1 or 2) on and off, and I've consistently seen this if the killer is in the green and below. Starts becoming far less common in purple and red but still occasionally happening. I guess my only gripe being a survivor main that plays killer as well, I know tunneling and camping or at least proxying can be viable strategies and all, but during this event when people want to use cakes to get BP I almost never see more than 2-3 cakes now. I did ask a few people that weren't on console to find out why and they all said roughly similar answers, "what's the point when you get tunnelers and campers each match". Granted I've only been seeing this more commonly during the event, but I still find it kinda blah when people in general try to wreck events for others. Personally I just choose to loop the killer for 5 gens and get out, but for those that don't do that I do feel their pain.
Absolutely, and it's always stupid. I think a healthy competition is fine but unfortunately, this is how it is these days. Many feel the need to act like they are somehow superior or dominating other people in a game. Sad.
Sometimes I deliberately only play "fairplay" and pretend to be a weak killer, letting everyone escape. Every second survivor is toxic in such games. One such typical match
3 out of 4 were toxic in the match. Green laughs because he used DS in the gate zone.
Anyone abusing something easy and problematic is just as much of an issue as the issue itself, along with the developers. But how does one put trust into the fact that the devs will fix faulty mechanics, such as horrible pallets distribution on many maps, SWF, camping and tunneling, spammable powers, when we know for a fact that almost all of them DO NOT play the game they created, let alone at ranks where people actually know what they are doing?
I honestly believe that both sides are to blame. But it's a chicken and the egg scenario. Lemme explain. No matter what a killer does in a match despite tunneling and camping being viable strategies to employ, they will inevitably run across piece of s$&# survivors that want to "style" on killers with t bagging and excessive clicking of flashlights, and same can be said for killers that will find survivors and tunnel from hook one and when they get off hook they shake their head and put them back up. One side will cry wolf and the village shows up a few times, but in the end eventually the village stops giving a damn. We know who the "village" in this scenario is. I'm a survivor main, but lemme say I have zero issue with tunnelers or campers. I simply don't care. It's not worth my time and effort getting upset over a game. I love the game, but this type of game breeds this kind of childish notion. It's one versus 4, and given some of my teammates these last couple days I would say it felt more like 3v3 but that's another issue, the game will never find a balance for everyone because it is inherently unbalanced. Have a lovely day.
The same douchey killers are also the same douchey survivors usually.
It's their job, and until they fix it, they need to be held accountable for it.
As for players, they operate within the allowed parameters of the game. If the game allows something you happen, you HAVE to assume people will do it. If you don't want them doing something, you have to remove it from the parameters of the game. You can't just make a game that is easily abused and expect people will not abuse it. That's just not how that works. In a perfect world, games could be filled with all kinds of exploits and never have an issue, but this is not a perfect world. Games need to be designed with strict rulesets that govern the gameplay in order to minimize problems. DbD is lacking in that kind of design, and whether or not the devs can do it, it's their job to fix it if they see it as a problem. Otherwise, they are essentially endorsing the bad gameplay.
Maybe because I don't play red ranks or maybe because I'm on console, I don't get very many 'bad behaving' survivors. I do get cranky with killers when I get killed off quickly but I can often see that it's my own fault...
I think NOT having the message window is helpful. People seem compelled to say something and maybe it's better not to have the option. The only real feedback I've gotten once on PC was someone saying like 'choke me daddy' stuff (surely as a joke?), after a match where I was playing Meyers.
There was a time when we would get messages through the playstation messaging system but that's very rare these days and it's usually just something funny rather than salt.
Maybe you all just need to play worse.
Do bones...I mean loop better
How can survivors choose to end the game for killer if they want?
Never said I don't share that vision, I just said that anyone exploiting that stuff is not skilled nor exempt from being at the core of the issue. But let me ask you something: have you ever played Rainbow Six Siege? If you did, according to when you did, you might know that Montagne, an operator with an extendable bulletproof shield, had game breaking glitches. Essentially, when the shield was extended, you could move, but not shoot, nor run or look above. People managed to find and exploit glitches that made it so he could have his shield extended AND shoot, meaning you didn't have escape from him, you could only try to find a way around him. And Ubisoft, the developers, DIDN'T disable him until they had an hotfix ready. They just kept him the way it was, ruining millions of ranked matches. Then something similar happened with another operator, Clash. Three times. Only on her THIRD time, they finally understood that she had to be disabled until the fix was implemented. How do you expect BHVR to do something like this, when even in a game based on RANKED matches, it didn't happen before a lot of time?
No u
Keeping in mind that Red ranks are nothing more than playtime (you could get to red ranks and be unable to survive the first 30 seconds of the match, especially if you only got there because of SWF), you should try and keep yourself as far from those ranks as possible. When you get there, the game turns into a sweatfest, with killers and survivors who have DbD as the only important thing of their lives. Not an enjoayble experience, trust me. It turns from a game to a chore.
For letting an entire team purposefully bleed out? Pretty sure that would fall under tge category of griefing, at least it should.
Also, why be condescending? You could have a reasonable discussion about something without acting like a 12 year old
Also, im a killer main, but if youre purposefully letting an entire team bleed out you probably shoukd catch a suspension, thats f'd up
That’s why I’m farming as killer :)
I am playing Siege right now. I have been paying since Mira was added.
I remember the Clash bit specifically. She was disabled MULTIPLE times. Nearly every time that exploit came up. My friends used to joke about maining her while she was disabled. That said, while it happened multiple times, it was still fixed. Ubi was also pretty open about fixing it. Mira had the same thing where she could hold up a mirror and a gun at the same time.
The difference here, however, isn't random bugs or exploits happening in DbD. It's the CORE GAMEPLAY LOOP. To compare to Siege, it would be like if that game allowed Defenders to run out during the drone phase and shoot the attacking operators. In fact, in its early days, I think that was ACTUALLY possible, so they made it so Attackers didn't physically spawn in until the drone phase was complete. It's also why every level was given multiple LoS blocks to the attacker spawns. Even minor updates see assets added to block run outs and spawn peaks at the start of a match on certain maps with notorious issues. Most recently was Chalet, and before that Border.
DbD does none of that. To make another point of this, Siege has roughly 200-250 devs working on it. DbD has 500-600. Siege radically altered the core gameplay to improve it when the launch was a mess, and pulled that game up from the ashes into a VERY good, albeit punishing, game. BHVR DID improve the game from its early versions, but many core gameplay issues remain despite how long they've been a problem. BHVR seems perfectly fine letting problematic core gameplay design issues just sit there, creating problems. In Siege, the devs understood that having problematic run outs and spawn peaks wasn't fair to the players, so they fixed it. They also understood that leaving those problems in the game would mean that players would use them. In DbD, we still have camping and tunneling, and they've scarcely been addressed. What's worse, when the devs come up with an idea on how to fix it, they make the fix an optional perk instead of a core gameplay adjustment. Imagine if, in Siege, to avoid a run-out or spawn peak that got you killed upon your character model being spawned in, you had to swap your rifle for a shield. Rather than fix the issue, they just gave you the OPTION to sacrifice your gameplay to avoid the issue. That's what DbD does. It's wrong.
DbD has 500-600.
This is false. Behaviour Interactive as a whole has about 600 employees. That includes non-developers (PR, for instance), as well as developers who are working on different projects. Furthermore, of those who are actually working on DbD, not all of them are programmers. You wouldn't want artists or lore writers working on the game's code, would you?
I remember for sure that Clash was not disabled on the first occurances of the glitch. That said, BHVR is largely known for applying the so called band-aids, instead of true fixes. Hence why they didn't even stop for a moment to consider that having the event play out during the mess they made on frames and other things was going to be idiotic. Still, here we are. I am not entirely sure about Rainbow, anyway. It's enjoyable, most of the time, but many of the modifications they made were because they cater towards the "Pro" league. The recent Zofia withstand bs, for instance. And Ash still doesn't have a proper hitbox. But yeah, overall they manage things more aptly than what we have seen on this game, this far. Wonder if it is ever going to change.
The 200-250 for Siege also includes their writers, artists, etc. They have stated several times that by Ubi standards, they are a small team.
From the devs' perspective, all these issues are tolerable and don't stop people from playing the game, since everyone who experiences them keeps playing the game.
You know what I did when I found the matchmaking an issue because I kept getting survivors who were much stronger than me? I stopped playing killer altogether (instead of playing occasionally). I didn't play killer, reach high ranks, complain about the matchmaker, and then continued playing, because that just means I don't really mind the problem.
Probably not until they get competition that has staying power and, as well, addresses the issues commonly found in DbD. If an Asymmetrical came out with definitive win/loss states, and gave players the feeling they can fully play out a match without being instantly removed, it would highlight the shortcomings of DbD and perhaps motivate BHVR to do something.
That's not relevant. The 500-600 number you quoted is all Behaviour Interactive employees, not just DbD developers. That's the only thing I said.
If it were that easy, someone would've made another game by now. Fact is, asymmetrical games often fail because people can't accept that each individual on one side has to be stronger than each individual on the other side. They demand buffs for the weaker side because they perceive the game as a 1v1 (their perspective as individual players) and refuse to see the game as a whole (4v1, 5v2, etc.).
By the way, someone always has to die first. That's the purpose of the killer role, to kill, and it's how it works in every slasher film. If you'd make it so killers had to constantly switch targets, you'd have to make survivors so pathetically weak, they'd go down in a chase inside of 15 seconds.
And we can all see the impact you had. Thanks for getting that fixed.
I play a game as long as it's fun. I take a break or leave when it's not. It's not any grand statement and you're not really impacting anything acting like you stopped to teach the devs a lesson. You didn't.
Do you take this tack with everything in your life? Something goes bad at work, quit! Kid acts up? Get rid of him! Car trouble? Sell it?
Weird.
Sure, if a game becomes unbearable I won't play it. But to think that stopping playing sends some grand message, well. Maybe I was in the WoW trenches too long.
Best I could do is not buy Cyberpunk. I am a huge fan of the genre. I have read Cyberpunk since the actual 80s. I've played Shadowrun on and off for years, bought many games. I was a kickstarter supporter of Shadowrun Returns. I could NOT wait for Cyberpunk to come out. Regretfully, I can't buy it. It's reportedly terrible and the KIND of terrible that it reportedly is is the kind of terrible I dislike. I don't, however, think I am making a discernible message to the developers. I just know I would be disappointed if I play it.
So it is griefing in some situations, which means my comment wasnt inaccurate. Letting 1 person bleed out because you cant get them to a hook or cant find them is a FAR CRY from letting an entire team bleed out.
Youre being condescending because you thought you were right when youre very clearly wrong and just admitted so. Next time, maybe try less attitude and being wrong wont make you looks so silly.
100% of the time if all 4 survivors bleed out its because the killer chose for that to happen. If youve got 4 slugs and you down the last person theres 0 reason not to hook them. You can wait out ds and/or kobe. Your bbq will tell you roughly where the others are. Ive got 3k hours in this game, ive had 4 slugs an uncountable number of times, ive never had 4 bleed outs. 2 tops