Truetalent vs Oracle team, what do you think?
I think this represents how powerful it is to face a team of 4 survivors.And as only spirits AND nurses They are the only killers that can stand up to swf Because the other killers don't have enough skill
https://youtu.be/x6p4OtdwOy0
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But every other multiplayer game balances around those top level players even if most people aren't going to reach that level of skill. There is a reason you do that for EVERY multiplayer game.
Dowsey also played against them and had similar results.
If only 2 killers are viable at top level play, and the other 22 are not. Then you make base mechanics changes that buff all killers, then go nerf the 2 killers. You don't make changes in a vacuum and then just ignore everything else.
I think the point is that BHVR can do SOMETHING, even if it's not a redesign. Right now they are making changes that actively hurt the game and make it worse.
I have seen several videos with him complaining about strong swf when he makes a ton of mistakes ... then he blames swf strength or builds... its very prevalent. No one can play perfectly all the time... and 4 people have a better chance to help cover mistakes than 1 person does.
The room for error as a killer is smaller, no doubt. Resorting to blaming "swf" when you have no idea if they are swf... and he has been wrong several times... is not good either. It gives a bad look to the community who doesnt pay as much attention.
I used to watch him a lot, but the whining overtook the value of seeing the gameplay to me. Just my opinion, but unless you play near perfect, then introspection is probably the best course of action.
The game is killer sided.
Not at the highest level play.
Ight. if the game is killer sided. Go bring the Meta perks rn, go Face Oracle rn, As both Nurse / spirit,
Go ahead. i'll wait for your response,
I said the exact thing earlier in the thread and it got completely overlooked, as it seems your comment has been. This is what needs to happen before anything; you need to bridge the gap between SWF and Solo.
Comms need to be implemented for Solo, including non-verbal stuff like a ping system. I think making builds/items visible to other Survivors in the lobby would help, as well.
Once the gap is bridged, then we can talk about balance.
Then the game will die earlier than it would otherwise, especially if they commit to MMR but don't make drastic changes. No one is going to get good and want to alternate between ok survivor teams and god squads if the cap to killer's ability remains in place. At a certain point, the gameplay won't be satisfying.
Honestly, games can make drastic changes. The issue is if BHVR will do so or not. While this wouldn't fix competitive alone, A. Fixing spawns including making survivors spawn closer to the killer B. Reworking hooks to something that spawns to a killer's location after pickup would be things that speed up killers to deal with the objective time disparity while not making the survivor objective longer and more miserable. When you really think about it, Pop only partially refunds you the time you took to hook a survivor in most circumstances.
The game is killer sided unless the killer is bad.
Yes, I think I will. But I would feel bad for them because they would stand no chance against me.
Make sure to stream it.
Of course.
Yes, I know he would've lost either way but with a more competitively viable build he could've done much better. The game should be balanced for good players, but there is a MASSIVE difference between balancing between good players and a 4 man comp SWF team that have been playing the game for years trying their hardest to win. Balancing for the 1 percent of the game would destroy the game, it would require so many changes that it would just change the game into something unrecognizable. Watch ScottJund's video on why you can't balance around the 1 percent in DBD.
I watched the video and I explained earlier, Wraith was easily one of the worst options he could've picked. Wraith heavily relies on a hit and run playstyle which works just fine in regular games but in a competitive scene it falls apart. There is no point in having ruin or any perk for that matter if you aren't able to apply pressure to survivors. Hell, even if he picked Trickster he could've probably done better, Trickster is a great camper and he would've been able to secure 1, maybe even 2 kills.
I watched it. I have also been a competitive gamer for years. Balancing around top players doesn’t affect the playerbase in any other game.
Like I said with the other guy, big difference between balancing for good players and a 4 man comp team that are trying their hardest to win. You can't balance around pro players in asymmetrical games because asymmetrical games are impossible to balance and forcing it to be a competitive game will kill it extremely fast. Most players in DBD are casual players and forcing the game to be put in a competitive scene will force them to leave the game, leaving the extremely small percent of people who play the game seriously, and guess what? Those players will leave too because the game has now become so unrecognizable that they're completely off put by it. Plus most pro players spend their time on games like Valorant, CSGO, etc because those games are actually somewhat balanced, all asymmetrical games are unbalanced meaning you can lose just because you had bad RNG. It's for that reason any asymmetrical game that has tried to be competitive (like deathgarden) die early on.
You can watch Scott's video on why you can't balance around the top 1 percent in DBD for more examples.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIOQ0G7LcGYGo ahead, explain to me how would BHVR be able to "fix" the top 1 percent players without killing their game, I'll wait. I've already brought up examples in my earlier replies to different people so I won't repeat it but any attempt to balance the game around the top 1 percent, especially in an asymmetrical game will cause the game to die extremely quickly.
Because those game aren't asymmetrical are they? Look at any example of an asymmetrical game trying to be competitive and you'll see a pattern real damn quick. Look at deathgarden, BHVR's attempt at making a competitive asymmetrical game. Explain to me how that game is doing right now. Like I sad earlier, most players in this game are casual players and as such forcing the game into a competitive scene will put those players off the game which will kill most of the playerbase. Then the remaining few players will be put off by the extremely long queue times and the fact that in order to win a game of DBD now you'll have to play extremely competitively.
Scott has made a video's explaining how balancing around the top percent of DBD will kill the game fast. Watch it.
Aren't they like one of the absolute best survivor teams in the world? Facing a guy using Wraith and never plays comp himself? Why wouldn't he get annihilated?
Most of the playerbase in competitive games is casual. Again, they don’t leave. This idea that balancing for top level will kill the game is baseless.
One of the devs explained in his stream that in-game chat was something they talked about in the beginning days of dbd, and they decided it was not the direction they wanted to go.
Kinda funny how you just refused to acknowledge the part where I explained that those competitive games aren't asymmetrical huh? Go ahead, show me one competitive ASYMMETRICAL game that hasn't died out and is in fact bustling with players. I've already explained why it won't work but your not listening.
My survivor que at red rank doesn't suck. We get games in about 3 minutes max
Pretty much what I expected. Just think it's kinda funny to see people acting as if vsing Oracle-tier teams is a real thing you should fear willl happen to you with any frequency at all and therefore is something the game should be balanced around. It's a Wraith, no kidding he's gonna do terrible against the best team in the world.
Well, if they fix the top 1 percent and MMR is functioning and on, bad survivors won't match up with the good killers as often until they get better. The DBD community is the only community I know that's like "Oh god, you can't possibly balance around players that know how to play the game!!!!!" What makes you think that killers only killing survivors because they are outright bad at the game won't eventually kill the game? It's boring to have your limits determined mainly by the skill of the other side (and killer is more stressful, so that makes it worse). It can make you feel like your a passive actor rather than an active one. Now, there are the top tier killers where this is not the case. However, this is 4 killers in the roster at best, 2 at the worst, making it boring in another sense. Why do you think survivor queues are bad?
As for the video you posted, Scott's logic is incredibly flawed. The path forward is so obvious, and he somehow didn't process it. It's not a monumental task to balance the game. Balance the game around the general level of mid/high-tier killers, buff the low-tier killers, and nerf the high-tiers down to that level. I don't think anyone in their right mind has ever been saying that Nurse and Spirit should remain unchanged if survivors got nerfed. The reason why they're ok at all is because survivors are just so overpowered against the other killers. So the game could be in a far more healthy state in about 4 chapters.
You are assuming balancing around that single match would punish the other 999 games. That's a pretty big assumption to make. Watch other competitive games. Take Dota 2 for example. Dota's complexity is beyond what dbd could ever aspire and yet it is a balanced game. Take a guess. Yes, they balanced around top percent. Casual and average people still enjoy and still play the game.
Stop trying to predict the future. "It wont work" you say. You don't know that. It works in other games far way more complex than dbd. Why would not work in dbd?
I am listening just fine. Neither you nor anyone else in the community has provided evidence that asymmetrical would be different. It's just a talking point that people think justifies itself, and so it gets spammed.
So survivor has been hooked twice theyre invincible? Killers would just slug them. Good killers get rid of the weakest chasers first because any moron can hold m1 and it generates pressure on the rest of the team. If i cant remove them from the game their getting slugged so that they cant do gens and so it creates pressure on the rest of the team. Instead of ending that poor persons game you want them to spend 10 minutes staring at dirt and somehow thats better?
I will personally laugh when you get gen rushed to high heaven and back then my guy,
Yes, MMR would fix a decent amount of the issues, but like I stated a million times, there is a difference between balancing for good players and balancing around the top 1 percent. And you are heavily underestimating how much work it would take to balance Killers around a high level, perhaps if BHVR weren't so slow it would take less time.
Lets assume BHVR took on the monumental task of making every Killer at the bare minimum an A-tier killer, this would require so much work to do it isn't even funny. Some Killers like trickster are fundamentally flawed meaning they need a full on rework and other Killers would need a lot of buffs including addon reworks and other things. This means that assuming BHVR doesn't mess up on a single Killer rework it would take well over a year to make every Killer strong, and this isn't even touching upon how they may add new Killers during that time and that they were all strong and didn't come out weak. Also not assuming all the map reworks that would need to happen due to some (like haddonfield or disturbed ward) being too strong for survivor, also not including the amount of perk reworks that would need to be done in order to bring the game into a more balanced state. Combine all of that and it'll take BHVR minimum one and a half years (once again assuming they don't mess up) and I haven't even talked about to sheer amount of bugs that would need to be taken care of resulting in even more time coding.
Gotta be honest: The devs could atleast try and balance out the issues at both low- and highranks.
There is a difference between, lets say, 2016 dbd and todays dbd. Or between dota 1 and dota 2. Just calling them impossible to balance doesnt cut it. Its an excuse. It should be a path where both sides get closer and closer by experimenting with new mechanics.
Just leaving bad mechanics as they are, just cause the game is asymmetrical, is lazy and uncreative. We're all pretty happy that instamoris, instagens, omeganurses and instaDS are gone. Just take it a step further and work on the main objective issue. Potatoes dont work on gens, while vets rush gens. Potatoes fall for camping, while vets rush gens. Maybe work out a way to make personal time on gens less relevant. Im sure you can make things better than not caring about it.
I just brought up Deathgarden, a competitive asymmetrical game that you apparently choose to either not read about or accidently skip over. Oh yeah, what about that other infamous game Evolve? The asymmetrical game that tried to be competitive but also failed?
Also the difference between those competitive games with casual players and DBD is that DBD started out and still is a casual game, those games started out as competitive games so players knew what they were getting themselves into. Turning DBD into a competitive experience would require so much work and effort that by the time everything was done (hypothetically) most players would be turned off by how much the game would have changed and how it is STILL imbalanced. I've told you this multiple times but it is impossible to balance asymmetrical games, you can't ever do it. The only way you would ever make DBD into a competitive game is if you removed every map except for coal tower, removed all the RNG from that map and made it static, kept only Nurse, Spirit, Blight, and Hag, and made it so they can only have the most competitive build, and the same thing for survivors too. Does that sound like a fun game to you? Do you think that people would still play DBD if it turned into that?
that video you posted is like one of the worst videos ever. The reason that is the case is because survivors aren't tested on their looping skill because they never needed to loop well with how fast the objective goes. With how safe pallets are, they are barely ever tested on making any reads. Its almost like... the game is balanced around casual play..... Its almost as if they want new players to be able to escapes good killers such that when the bad survivors become good, they break the game. wow... who would guessed that one. Your suppose to run out of pallets if you play like that but the game badly balanced in regards to objective time which in my opinion is the reason why killers use slowdown perks. It is because they can't impact the loops with most of the killers, so their only real way to impact the match is to kill survivor's resources until none exists because they can't really challenge the loops.
Its a bit funny how DBD evolved because it used to be that in early stages of DBD, windows used to be.... well broken. now a days its pallets that are broken because it turns out that you don't need reusable loops to win. just enough safe pallets to win.
I disagree, most killers only need a few tweeks to be A tier.
Trickster: lacerations no longer decay in their own, instead survivors have to spend 1 second per knife that landed to pull them out, and hes now a 115 killer. Boom. A tier.
Trapper: Traps are in a locker, he can carry 3 at base, 10 traps total can be on the map, trap setting time is cut in half. Boom. A tier.
Legion: The first 2 survivors stabbed by feral frenzy recieve deep wounds only, 3rd recieves deep wounds and is mangeled until healed, 4th recieves deep wounds, mangeled and is broken for 30 seconds, 5th survivor and beyond can be downed by feral frenzy stabs. All status effects are only applied to survivors not effected by deep wounds and only during the same iteration of FF. Mending now takes 10 seconds to remove by the survivor. Pools of blood show up bright while in FF (like Victor). Boom. A tier.
I cant think of any killer that needs a full rework to be in A tier or even S.
Yeah, which I get, but the reality is that players are using comms regardless and it's creating massive balance issues. It doesn't matter what they do or who they balance for, someone is going to get screwed over until they bridge the gap between SWF and Solo; and probably the most significant reason for said gap is comms. Coordination is part of it, but that applies to any game; teams will almost always perform better than randoms. Give Solo the same tools and it will at least bring them up to similar capabilities, then balance will be easier to work on.
The Devs need to adapt and stop holding on to the pieces of their vision that are clearly unhealthy for the game, especially when those pieces are already being subverted and they aren't doing anything to prevent it. It's just silly.
This is why I only play nurse.
And every single one of those games is not asymmetrical. People REALLY underestimate how much that changes things.
Oh you can laugh all you want, when you get the opportunity to do that. I personally know I will be shitting on them because you know… best player ever here. Btw there is no such thing as gen rush.
But nobody could compete with what we saw. It doesn't matter if it's him or someone different.
No.
Smash bros is a party game too, yet they still balance that.
I work with game designers. just because it is asymmetrical does not mean it can't be done. All sorts of games have some level of asymmetry. Hell even CS:GO is hella Asymmetrical. Both sides have entirely different objectives to win, and have different weapon sets. Yet somehow that game is balanced. Sure, they both shoot things, but that's really the only thing that is the same for both sides, shooting and movement. the actually gameplay and strategy for both sides is vastly different.
Ight. now you're just a survivor main.
Not gunna argue a point with you because your entitlement is getting in the way,
Should leave it by the door,
And you are a killer main. I’m still arguing with you though.
Just do what f13 did and make it that you can't use private chat lol
I play both sides.
This game is 100% Survivor Favored. by a Long Shot,
A video would really be great. Its easier to learn for me that way.
I'm not underestimating the asymmetrical aspect. I'm taking it into consideration and stating that even that is not enough to match dota's complexity. There is a reason why you can win millions of dollars playing dota and not the other way around. And dota 2 works just fine. So just saying that it is impossible, unachievable or tedious because of the complexity that the asymmetrical aspect provides is vague and unfounded since there are more complex games out there already doing it