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why not make more s tier characters

Beefmur Beefmur
in General Discussions

so nurse spirit are s tier. Why not buff other killers to their power if mmr is going to be a thing so you can play more than just 2 to 3 killers at the top 0.1%

Comments

  • onemind onemind

    @Pulsar said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2034189#Comment_2034189

    Legion main here.

    There is only pain that awaits you if you choose this path.

    I know used to main legion but blight is faster

  • Phasmamain Phasmamain

    @Dizzy1096 said:

    Because survivors complain lol they HATE Nurse and Spirit so much. The only reason the Nurse complaints have subsided is because you barely see Nurses anymore. Wait till MMR is on and the complaints will skyrocket.

    Survivors wanted Pyramidhead and Freddy nerfed, deathslinger too when none of these are viable at the highest level. They have the devs wrapped around their fingers since they're paying the bills which is why we end up with non top-tier killers nerfed even harder.

    "but but teh killrates!!"

    The game is balanced around bad survivors or survivors that just want to goof around. All the killers seem quite competitive, tryhard sweatlords but the amount of survivors I see doing nothing or goofing off is ridiculous. Wait till you get those games where everyone wants to do the objective and you see how unbalanced the game is. The one benefit of MMR would be if it put all the good survivors together so the game could be rebalanced but we have seen twice now that the MMR does not do that and is incapable of that. 2 red ranks, a green rank and a rank 19 vs a rank 1 tryhard killer. Killer gets the kills and devs just see the endgame stats and leave the balance as it is.

    Nurse and spirit are the only problematic killers at the moment because you can’t Balance them like the rest of the cast

    If we want every killer balanced how do we make trapper as good as nurse?

  • onemind onemind

    @dezzmont said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2033490#Comment_2033490

    No literally the opposite.

    MMR will create a system where the top tier players are only playing nurse all day. They quit, then the next tier of player plays vs nurse. So on, so on.

    The severe gap in killer power level is an existential problem for DBD's survival if they want to do skill based matchmaking. Good players won't want to play endlessly against the same killers.

    Good someone gets it was wondering how many people would think what I said glad to see people agree with you

  • supersonic853 supersonic853

    @Phasmamain said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2034071#Comment_2034071

    Nurse and spirit are the only problematic killers at the moment because you can’t Balance them like the rest of the cast

    If we want every killer balanced how do we make trapper as good as nurse?

    By nerfing survivors? Inb4 people are like:why you nerfing survivors! Because of reasons that have been noted multiple times. Then just rebalance spirit and nurse after the fact. People say killers like tru3 just defend spirit because shes bs. Nah its really just shes the only answer beside nurse we have.

  • Phasmamain Phasmamain

    @supersonic853 said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2035385#Comment_2035385

    By nerfing survivors? Inb4 people are like:why you nerfing survivors! Because of reasons that have been noted multiple times. Then just rebalance spirit and nurse after the fact. People say killers like tru3 just defend spirit because shes bs. Nah its really just shes the only answer beside nurse we have.

    Yeah that’s what I’m saying. We need to rework or nerf nurse and spirit then we can move to survivors to make it more balanced overall

    Every time they nerf survivor because most killers are struggling nurse and spirit only get stronger

  • supersonic853 supersonic853

    @Phasmamain said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2035401#Comment_2035401

    Yeah that’s what I’m saying. We need to rework or nerf nurse and spirit then we can move to survivors to make it more balanced overall

    Every time they nerf survivor because most killers are struggling nurse and spirit only get stronger

    It sucks because i always thought billy showed how balanced a killer can be then they dumstered him. He had high mobility a oneshot that punished survivors mistakes. Had a good skill floor. And just generally felt fun to face all he needed was a addon pass. Guess we can't have nice things.

  • BadMrFrosty BadMrFrosty

    @Withered8 said:

    Blight is debatable stronger than spirit, so no we are not lacking in s tier killers. We are lacking in skillful killers.

    There is no actual debate to be had here. Blight, while good in the hands of a capable player, pales drastically in comparison to spirit in similar circumstance. Let's reel in the optimism just a bit :P

  • Phasmamain Phasmamain

    @supersonic853 said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2035403#Comment_2035403

    It sucks because i always thought billy showed how balanced a killer can be then they dumstered him. He had high mobility a oneshot that punished survivors mistakes. Had a good skill floor. And just generally felt fun to face all he needed was a addon pass. Guess we can't have nice things.

    But besides a negligible overheat nothing changed. He’s still very strong and balanced

  • supersonic853 supersonic853

    @Phasmamain said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2035413#Comment_2035413

    But besides a negligible overheat nothing changed. He’s still very strong and balanced

    Depends on the loops his chainsaw overheat becomes a big deterimant. Also the ######### scream and his animations god help me.

  • Dizzy1096 Dizzy1096

    @Phasmamain said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2034071#Comment_2034071

    Nurse and spirit are the only problematic killers at the moment because you can’t Balance them like the rest of the cast

    If we want every killer balanced how do we make trapper as good as nurse?

    You can't. Therefore you buff killers in general, Nurse needs a full rework, and when killers in general are in a much better spot you can then do things with Spirits phasing.

    On the survivor side you would do something like scotts idea because the imbalance has always been a lack of communication.

    Of course all this requires time and effort and I can't see any major overhauls to DBD at this point in its life.

  • Phasmamain Phasmamain

    @supersonic853 said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2035419#Comment_2035419

    Depends on the loops his chainsaw overheat becomes a big deterimant. Also the ######### scream and his animations god help me.

    The scream is fine and fitting to me but his animations are a bit weird

  • Phasmamain Phasmamain

    @Dizzy1096 said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2035385#Comment_2035385

    You can't. Therefore you buff killers in general, Nurse needs a full rework, and when killers in general are in a much better spot you can then do things with Spirits phasing.

    On the survivor side you would do something like scotts idea because the imbalance has always been a lack of communication.

    Of course all this requires time and effort and I can't see any major overhauls to DBD at this point in its life.

    Yeah that’s why I want nurse changed so we can actually balance the roster.

    Solos do need more communication and a ping system would be perfect

    Overhauling the game could happen but probably not

  • Dizzy1096 Dizzy1096

    @dezzmont said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2034867#Comment_2034867

    >In a fighting game for example you both immediately and throughout the match have the chance to do damage to each other at any point.

    You actually don't, and I think this is one of the key problems.

    In fighting games advantage vs disadvantage states are a huge thing. In a fighting game it doesn't matter how well you play, if your in mid combo or are going up against a 50/50 how good you are doesn't matter, you got put in a position before that has you at your opponent's mercy and your just trying to mitigate damage at this point.

    In DBD, such a absurdly huge goal of the game is to ensure the survivors never feel powerless. So you never get a situation where the survivor can't try something to get out of a bad situation, up until you lose the entire interaction anyway. Sometimes it takes a LOT of skill to pull this off, so at the mid game level DBD functions, but at high end the game breaks down because one side NEVER loses agency, and this is a critical game design flaw, because it means survivors never lose control over the game.

    But that is just one part of this whole issue. The other core issue is that survivor base kit is just way stronger than killer base kit, and its stronger in ways you... sorta want but its not good once exploited. Case in point is "W meta." It sounds stupid because at the mid level it would be INSANE for survivors not to be able to get distance to start a chase with, but the issue is the math of gen time means once your really coordinated you can just... make it so killers literally can't win in a majority of maps and killer cases. The ones that ignore this tend to be so strong mobility wise chases don't even resemble anything like the base game.

    In a fighting example here, imagine if 95% of the cast can't use throws or overheads, so if you crouchblock they never can open you up ever and the game is just inevitably going to go to timeout against them and as long as you jab them a tiny bit you always win. And then for that 5% of the cast they get to not only throw, but have a full screen projectile you can't jump over that requires you to perfect parry at a random point during the animation and which pierces blocks.

    Loops might be a little too strong right now, but at least you can mindgame them. In the context of a loop and this 'blocking in a fighting game' example, most of the cast are what we would call 'honest' characters: They CAN open you up, its just hard and so they struggle but can still do absolutely fine at the top end. Its problematic in how it compounds with the killer basekit weakness overall, and how killers aren't rewarded enough for winning chases and how W is just so strong, but loops themselves are actually in a pretty ok spot.

    The big issues I see facing DBD and general killer viability are:

    Dropping chases/stealth isn't even a goal ever anymore, its just maximum time wasting using non-interactive systems.

    Killers aren't rewarded for winning chases enough: Unhooks are too 'powerful' not in the sense they are too easy, but killer gets jack all if there is an unhook and they don't snowball, leading to a campy/sluggy meta.

    Gen times can't get longer without the game getting VERY boring but killers just can't... spend time on anything without gens popping too fast. A killer winning a chase extremely fast at 45 seconds still probably loses because winning that chase doesn't stop 3 gens from popping.

    The fixes here that would allow you to lower the power level of S tiers and make gameplay more diverse in general would be weird and controversial. Something like 'reverse bloodlust' where your faster OUT of chases so that you can still loop the killer and mindgame with em fine but if you just run over open ground they catch up to you absurdly fast, basekit 'Mini-pop', some way to block gens if your defending them, something that rewards the killer for hooks that don't result in kills or further downs, and something that slows the game down globally if the killer is playing well even if some gen jockey is just slamming gens would allow a lot of power to be moved OUT of killer in ways players often find annoying.

    Like, if landing a hook is REALLY GOOD intrinsically, like say... permanently slowing that survivor's repair speed, suddenly you CAN do things like make the hook timer slow down if the killer is near and not in a chase, because the killer no longer NEEDS to either secure that kill or get a second down off that first hook, they already meaningfully got a tempo advantage off the hook. You now can meaningfully punish camping more than it already is. But in the current space the game is at you can't, and in fact all these anti-camping tools like BT actually force you to camp more because you need to be like 2 inches away from the hook to block a BT rescue or get something like a down out of it and you can't get NOTHING out of a hook because you gave up 3 gens for it.

    Ultimately the killer needs more room to breath and 'slack' so that more killers are viable and super sweaty killer play not only isn't required, but no longer as rewarded. But in a reality where the survivors always have control and the killer only is rewarded with keeping people off gens now and forever, with no intermediate goals in the game, there is no room to do anything but sweat every chase, every down, every hook, every unhook.

    And I get it, this all sounds crazy if your playing outside of a sweat squad and your a survivor main and never have seen one in action. I get it, the killer doesn't feel weak cuz when they win they REALLY WIN. This is a lot of abstract math nonsense as opposed to the in game experience where sometimes you do just get out played and blown out.

    But that mathy nonsense matters a lot an affects the game a lot. For example, its BONKERS how much better slugging is tempo wise than hooks. Tempo wise your goal with hooking or slugging is to get survivors off hooks, but slugging is so insanely better at it: The time it takes to unhook a survivor is just the travel time to the hook, which means 2 survivors are 'incapacitated' and not doing gens for just that amount of time. Meanwhile it takes you time to not only go to the hook with the survivor, but pick em up and place them, so you lose time as a killer doing this to pressure others. If you slug, you don't lose any time, and it takes the survivor 30 seconds to get to the point they can instantly be picked up. So if you slug, you can pressure another survivor right away, one survivor isn't on gens for 30 seconds plus the time it takes for the third to reach them, and the third is off gens in the time it takes to reach them.

    That is asinine, slugging should be a short term choice to instantly start another chase, but the fact its not just better but ridiculously superior to slug unless you think you can use the hook to gain tempo via camping/patrolling/whatever by sometimes over *two minutes* of survivor gen repair time is absurd. That is the kinda deep at the bedrock issue no one really thinks about that causes a lot of negativity for the killer and a lot of unfun killer strategies trying to mitigate this weakness of the hook for survivors.

    Good post, this part stuck out for me

    "In DBD, such a absurdly huge goal of the game is to ensure the survivors never feel powerless. So you never get a situation where the survivor can't try something to get out of a bad situation, up until you lose the entire interaction anyway. Sometimes it takes a LOT of skill to pull this off, so at the mid game level DBD functions, but at high end the game breaks down because one side NEVER loses agency, and this is a critical game design flaw, because it means survivors never lose control over the game."

    It goes back to the argument about 360's with the last update.

    Lets ignore whether they work or not for a moment, the fact is that survivors wanted another chance to evade the killer. They're caught out of position, they're in a dead zone, and they still want a way to fight back. The devs caved in and gave them it.

    It's that kind of mentality which holds the game back and a development team terrified of its audience. It's not just about 360's, its that same mentality that invades every part of the game. Just the other day there was a thread about the twins and there was suggestions that it should be easier to kick the twins once they miss. So the idea being that if the killer misses the one attack it should be easy for the survivors to run up and completely negate the killers power for a while.

    Tru3ta1ent has made a similar point about Deathslinger. People complain there's no counterplay and I completely understand and don't deny that Deathslinger isn't the most fun killer, but imagine you went against a killer with an aimbot who could never miss a shot, survivors want some kind of dodge mechanic, something where even if the killer was on point every time they still had a chance to evade.

    I get it you want that agency all of the time when you play survivor but when you take a step back and look at the game as a whole and the 4 vs 1 mechanic, you realize that dead zones and caught out of position, no thats it. You're meant to be hit and you should be hit, there should be no second chance.

    I think devs should stop the "every survivor for himself" attitude. It made sense kind of with the old hatch because it was always to play for but now there's no point because if you don't work as a team and do the gens then you're all likely to die anyway. Make the survivors feel like more of a team, reward dead survivors for the team escaping so that people don't feel as crappy when they're tunneled/camped.

  • Yamaoka Yamaoka

    @CornHub said:

    Any killer can be S tier if you put your mind to it.

    Surely you can't be serious.

  • CornHub CornHub

    @Yamaoka said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2034155#Comment_2034155

    Surely you can't be serious.

    Yeah, I'm trying to be positive :(

  • Yamaoka Yamaoka

    @CornHub said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2035594#Comment_2035594

    Yeah, I'm trying to be positive :(

    Positivity in the DBD forums?!

    Untitled Image


  • Zephinism Zephinism

    @OBX said:

    Just watch Dowsey’s vod on twitch where he had to sit in Q for 2 hours on twins due to his absurd 800+ kills with 1 escape MMR rating to then get promptly dumpstered by comp players.

    Even the top 1% players in the game can’t win with non-nurse/spirit games verses that.

    buffing all killers will even out because people who are good with any killer will always go up in MMR so the rest of us mediocre players will be left with mediocre competition. That’s how MMR works. If bhvr goes through with the MMR, they have got to bring more killers up to par

    True I think they should buff all the killers so they can stomp the 1% of best survivors. Would make for a balanced game.

  • Withered8 Withered8

    @BadMrFrosty said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2034829#Comment_2034829

    There is no actual debate to be had here. Blight, while good in the hands of a capable player, pales drastically in comparison to spirit in similar circumstance. Let's reel in the optimism just a bit :P

    @Dizzy1096 said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2034829#Comment_2034829

    Stop drinking the kool aid. Blight is junk and to compare him to Spirit is ridiculous

    I don't think you guys have actually seen a good blight then. What does spirit actually have over blight? The ability to occasionally down survivors faster than blight? Even then if the survivor plays well the spirit with have to phase at LEAST twice to down them which with a 15 second recovery + phasing time and over time wasters can stack up tremendously. Blight downs survivors way faster in a lot to circumstances, gets a lot more free hits, has 1000 times better mobility and map pressure.

    There's a reason at comp level a lot of ppl swap out spirit for blight.

  • dezzmont dezzmont

    @Withered8 said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2035414#Comment_2035414

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2034850#Comment_2034850

    I don't think you guys have actually seen a good blight then. What does spirit actually have over blight? The ability to occasionally down survivors faster than blight? Even then if the survivor plays well the spirit with have to phase at LEAST twice to down them which with a 15 second recovery + phasing time and over time wasters can stack up tremendously. Blight downs survivors way faster in a lot to circumstances, gets a lot more free hits, has 1000 times better mobility and map pressure.

    There's a reason at comp level a lot of ppl swap out spirit for blight.

    Blight still has to respect most loops. For example they do literally nothing vs a L T wall.

    Spirit dumpsters L T walls, which are common ruins that most maps have and which take an extreme amount of time to loop through due to being essentially unmindgameable if the survivor plays it correctly.

    Blight gets rid of the W meta problem, he is stronger than spirit over open ground. But spirit is still strong over open ground, and is strong in loops too. Clear no contest between the two, even if Spirit had counterplay and was merely really good inside loops she would be better simply because she has more tools overall. But in her current state, Spirit isn't just stronger, she is MUCH stronger.

  • Beefmur Beefmur

    you dont need to use your power at a LT wall in general just mindgame duhhhh

  • Dizzy1096 Dizzy1096

    @Withered8 said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2035414#Comment_2035414

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2034850#Comment_2034850

    I don't think you guys have actually seen a good blight then. What does spirit actually have over blight? The ability to occasionally down survivors faster than blight? Even then if the survivor plays well the spirit with have to phase at LEAST twice to down them which with a 15 second recovery + phasing time and over time wasters can stack up tremendously. Blight downs survivors way faster in a lot to circumstances, gets a lot more free hits, has 1000 times better mobility and map pressure.

    There's a reason at comp level a lot of ppl swap out spirit for blight.

    Blight gets looped, Spirit doesn't. I've only seen one comp person play Blight, that was fingerguns and he seemed to be missing a lot of swings due to Blight's poor turning.

  • BubbaMain64 BubbaMain64

    Because long term the game is hoping to achieve actual balance. So, having too many S tier killers would mean that the power paradigm would shift from survivor to killer. While, yes killers should be oppressive and stronger, they shouldn't be so overwhelming to the point where you cannot do much against them.

  • Withered8 Withered8

    @dezzmont said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2036397#Comment_2036397

    Blight still has to respect most loops. For example they do literally nothing vs a L T wall.

    Spirit dumpsters L T walls, which are common ruins that most maps have and which take an extreme amount of time to loop through due to being essentially unmindgameable if the survivor plays it correctly.

    Blight gets rid of the W meta problem, he is stronger than spirit over open ground. But spirit is still strong over open ground, and is strong in loops too. Clear no contest between the two, even if Spirit had counterplay and was merely really good inside loops she would be better simply because she has more tools overall. But in her current state, Spirit isn't just stronger, she is MUCH stronger.

    If you're getting looped at a T L as blight then your not playing him right. There is absolutely no loop in this game he can't play exept for the occasional small loop on an indoor map, but that's just indoor maps so.

    Spirit doesn't have as many tools as blight. She's also alot weaker without addons.

  • Mr_K Mr_K

    These supposive S tier killers are the ones I see the less of.

  • ukenicky ukenicky

    I'd throw Hag and Blight in the S tier as well to be honest.

    My main issue with Spirit and Nurse is how much easier Spirit is to use and you get pretty much equal results to if you play a good Nurse. Nurse requires so much more time to master, you're rarely going to see a god Nurse lol

    I wouldn't mind if they added another killer like Nurse where, with a lot of time and dedication you could potentially be truly unbeatable but that's such a game breaking thing to go for. When you play against nurse you aren't really playing dead by daylight normally, it's a completely different game in terms of attempting to loop her. I think asking for a killer like THAT is scary and to think twice before asking for such things lol

  • glitchboi glitchboi

    @Beefmur said:

    blights only s tier with alchemists ring or compound 21

    I'd say he's A-tier at best even with Alchemist's Ring/Compound 21. Now if we're talking Blight w/ j-flick, he's definitely S-tier barely above Hag.

  • glitchboi glitchboi

    @CornHub said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2035594#Comment_2035594

    Yeah, I'm trying to be positive :(

    I feel you man D:

  • ShamelessPigMain ShamelessPigMain

    I think that BHVR feared the reputation strong things got. This community, in all of its toxicity, gets so incredibly worked up and so incredibly self-righteous whenever they go against things that are typically seen as good and then complain about how they are OP uncounterable ez baby killer/survivor etc. etc. etc. Just look at Spirit; she gets so much hate when only half of it is deserved.

    I also think that they're trying to change the game's power creep. In games like Pokemon, the new things are always the new metas; old things fall into obscurity and the new things become the metas. BHVR doesn't want that; they're trying to make perks more equal. Not only have they nerfed DS (which I think was unnecessary), they are buffing perks like second wind. Not only have they nerfed ... well Killer nerfs are on the way, they rebuffing killers like wraith.

  • Dizzy1096 Dizzy1096

    Because survivors complain if they do. Killers arent designed to be strong. They’re designed to be easy to beat

  • Beefmur Beefmur

    i talked to the balance designer on his twitch and he said "i dont think you realise how strong clown really is" and to that response i said he gets countered by just running away from loops. Then he said"every killer is supposed to have a counter" my responce was nurse spirit then i left his twitch because im actually just done talking to himn baout balance. I also asked him who he watches at a competitve level and he said"I dont have time for that"

  • Friendly_Blendette Friendly_Blendette

    @onemind said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/235813/why-not-make-more-s-tier-characters

    If mmr works very well we won't need that

    MMR is gonna make this problem even worse. As killer it will be impossible to get past a certain MMR with some killers and as survivor you will just go against spirit and nurse and maybe a blight somewhere in the mix.

  • MrDardon MrDardon

    Only Nurse is S Tier. That's why she is limping everywhere and stumbling as a 3.8 m/s Killer. She is viable against top Survivors even without Add-ons.

    Spirit definitely can't compete against top Survivors without Add-ons. She needs duration/move speed/activation against those Survivors. So at base she is probably high A Tier. Spirit has a similar issue like old Nurse did, where Add-Ons make her stupid. At base, Spirit is okay but not good enough for top Survivors.

    Give her a bit more duration and move speed at base and nerf/change her Add-ons then we can call her S Tier.

  • Toblerone007 Toblerone007

    @dezzmont said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2034867#Comment_2034867

    >In a fighting game for example you both immediately and throughout the match have the chance to do damage to each other at any point.

    You actually don't, and I think this is one of the key problems.

    In fighting games advantage vs disadvantage states are a huge thing. In a fighting game it doesn't matter how well you play, if your in mid combo or are going up against a 50/50 how good you are doesn't matter, you got put in a position before that has you at your opponent's mercy and your just trying to mitigate damage at this point.

    In DBD, such a absurdly huge goal of the game is to ensure the survivors never feel powerless. So you never get a situation where the survivor can't try something to get out of a bad situation, up until you lose the entire interaction anyway. Sometimes it takes a LOT of skill to pull this off, so at the mid game level DBD functions, but at high end the game breaks down because one side NEVER loses agency, and this is a critical game design flaw, because it means survivors never lose control over the game.

    But that is just one part of this whole issue. The other core issue is that survivor base kit is just way stronger than killer base kit, and its stronger in ways you... sorta want but its not good once exploited. Case in point is "W meta." It sounds stupid because at the mid level it would be INSANE for survivors not to be able to get distance to start a chase with, but the issue is the math of gen time means once your really coordinated you can just... make it so killers literally can't win in a majority of maps and killer cases. The ones that ignore this tend to be so strong mobility wise chases don't even resemble anything like the base game.

    In a fighting example here, imagine if 95% of the cast can't use throws or overheads, so if you crouchblock they never can open you up ever and the game is just inevitably going to go to timeout against them and as long as you jab them a tiny bit you always win. And then for that 5% of the cast they get to not only throw, but have a full screen projectile you can't jump over that requires you to perfect parry at a random point during the animation and which pierces blocks.

    Loops might be a little too strong right now, but at least you can mindgame them. In the context of a loop and this 'blocking in a fighting game' example, most of the cast are what we would call 'honest' characters: They CAN open you up, its just hard and so they struggle but can still do absolutely fine at the top end. Its problematic in how it compounds with the killer basekit weakness overall, and how killers aren't rewarded enough for winning chases and how W is just so strong, but loops themselves are actually in a pretty ok spot.

    The big issues I see facing DBD and general killer viability are:

    Dropping chases/stealth isn't even a goal ever anymore, its just maximum time wasting using non-interactive systems.

    Killers aren't rewarded for winning chases enough: Unhooks are too 'powerful' not in the sense they are too easy, but killer gets jack all if there is an unhook and they don't snowball, leading to a campy/sluggy meta.

    Gen times can't get longer without the game getting VERY boring but killers just can't... spend time on anything without gens popping too fast. A killer winning a chase extremely fast at 45 seconds still probably loses because winning that chase doesn't stop 3 gens from popping.

    The fixes here that would allow you to lower the power level of S tiers and make gameplay more diverse in general would be weird and controversial. Something like 'reverse bloodlust' where your faster OUT of chases so that you can still loop the killer and mindgame with em fine but if you just run over open ground they catch up to you absurdly fast, basekit 'Mini-pop', some way to block gens if your defending them, something that rewards the killer for hooks that don't result in kills or further downs, and something that slows the game down globally if the killer is playing well even if some gen jockey is just slamming gens would allow a lot of power to be moved OUT of killer in ways players often find annoying.

    Like, if landing a hook is REALLY GOOD intrinsically, like say... permanently slowing that survivor's repair speed, suddenly you CAN do things like make the hook timer slow down if the killer is near and not in a chase, because the killer no longer NEEDS to either secure that kill or get a second down off that first hook, they already meaningfully got a tempo advantage off the hook. You now can meaningfully punish camping more than it already is. But in the current space the game is at you can't, and in fact all these anti-camping tools like BT actually force you to camp more because you need to be like 2 inches away from the hook to block a BT rescue or get something like a down out of it and you can't get NOTHING out of a hook because you gave up 3 gens for it.

    Ultimately the killer needs more room to breath and 'slack' so that more killers are viable and super sweaty killer play not only isn't required, but no longer as rewarded. But in a reality where the survivors always have control and the killer only is rewarded with keeping people off gens now and forever, with no intermediate goals in the game, there is no room to do anything but sweat every chase, every down, every hook, every unhook.

    And I get it, this all sounds crazy if your playing outside of a sweat squad and your a survivor main and never have seen one in action. I get it, the killer doesn't feel weak cuz when they win they REALLY WIN. This is a lot of abstract math nonsense as opposed to the in game experience where sometimes you do just get out played and blown out.

    But that mathy nonsense matters a lot an affects the game a lot. For example, its BONKERS how much better slugging is tempo wise than hooks. Tempo wise your goal with hooking or slugging is to get survivors off hooks, but slugging is so insanely better at it: The time it takes to unhook a survivor is just the travel time to the hook, which means 2 survivors are 'incapacitated' and not doing gens for just that amount of time. Meanwhile it takes you time to not only go to the hook with the survivor, but pick em up and place them, so you lose time as a killer doing this to pressure others. If you slug, you don't lose any time, and it takes the survivor 30 seconds to get to the point they can instantly be picked up. So if you slug, you can pressure another survivor right away, one survivor isn't on gens for 30 seconds plus the time it takes for the third to reach them, and the third is off gens in the time it takes to reach them.

    That is asinine, slugging should be a short term choice to instantly start another chase, but the fact its not just better but ridiculously superior to slug unless you think you can use the hook to gain tempo via camping/patrolling/whatever by sometimes over *two minutes* of survivor gen repair time is absurd. That is the kinda deep at the bedrock issue no one really thinks about that causes a lot of negativity for the killer and a lot of unfun killer strategies trying to mitigate this weakness of the hook for survivors.

    Nice post. Thoroughly read through and it hits the nail on the head. You've done the research.

    Some others here should follow suit. This is how it is.

  • DontNerf DontNerf

    @Profezia said:

    Blight, Spirit, Nurse.

    No more needed.

    Blight is not S tier the only killer that js S tier is nurse and possibly spirit. Blight has far too much counter play and weaknesses to be S tier. He is hella strong tho.

  • Northener1907 Northener1907

    @Beefmur said:

    who cares about them complaining

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2033182#Comment_2033182

    people are going to complain no matter what

    Devs cares? 4 Survs more money. So in that case noone cares about your complaining actually. That is why my Freddy boi will get nerf because survivors were not enough smart againts him.

  • Dizzy1096 Dizzy1096

    @ukenicky said:

    I'd throw Hag and Blight in the S tier as well to be honest.

    My main issue with Spirit and Nurse is how much easier Spirit is to use and you get pretty much equal results to if you play a good Nurse. Nurse requires so much more time to master, you're rarely going to see a god Nurse lol

    I wouldn't mind if they added another killer like Nurse where, with a lot of time and dedication you could potentially be truly unbeatable but that's such a game breaking thing to go for. When you play against nurse you aren't really playing dead by daylight normally, it's a completely different game in terms of attempting to loop her. I think asking for a killer like THAT is scary and to think twice before asking for such things lol

    You dont get similar results to playing Nurse well. Even Zubat and tournament players say Spirit has nothing on Nurse.

    People vastly overrate Spirit its ridiculous.

  • Dizzy1096 Dizzy1096

    @BubbaMain64 said:

    Because long term the game is hoping to achieve actual balance. So, having too many S tier killers would mean that the power paradigm would shift from survivor to killer. While, yes killers should be oppressive and stronger, they shouldn't be so overwhelming to the point where you cannot do much against them.

    Where did you hear this?

    I disagree massively. They are not looking to achieve actual balance long term. They seem like they’re trying to keep the balance they have now.

    Last year they fixed all of the broken windows. Now if you saw the other thread about groaning storehouse you can see they brought the window back. A lot of the maps have stronger windows. Then you have meat plant and its thousand god pallets.

    The fact that they reverted the map balance so hard shows it was an intentional decision to greatly increase the safety of maps for survivors.

    Now they want to nerf freddy who isnt even that strong, ave clown an update that barely increased his strength, want to take away huntress exhaustion hatchets. Nerfed pyramids chase massively even though again he couldnt compete against a good swf

    Whatever happened last year they obviously decided it was too much. This is the level of balance they’re trying to keep. They do not want actual balance.

    I’ve been facing a lot of swf with toolboxes and bnps recently. I went against one yesterday who was streaming. They spoke a different language so i couldnt understand what was being said but I was playing Twins and it was interesting to watch back because someone here nailed it the other day. There was 4 people chilling and laughing and joking all hitting gens, meanwhile im having to work my butt off just to try and stay afloat. The game really is designed to be casual and chill for the majority of players and sadly that means swf. Killer has to suffer so the rest can have a good time. Thats how the game ks balanced. Except its stupid because I only won by camping, tunneling and slugging (I was twins) and played off their altruism. So in the end I dont think anybody had a good time. The game is not balanced around 4 survivors all doing the objective. Its designed with plenty of spare time so that survivors can chill, raid chests, chase the killer around for 2 mins with a flashlight, go moonwalking etc when all 4 are together in a swf and have the combined focus of wanting to do the objective the game breaks.

  • ukenicky ukenicky

    @Dizzy1096 said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2041427#Comment_2041427

    You dont get similar results to playing Nurse well. Even Zubat and tournament players say Spirit has nothing on Nurse.

    People vastly overrate Spirit its ridiculous.

    Spirit is still a ridiculously strong S tier killer for the amount of effort required to get good with her unlike Nurse.

    At the end of the day Nurse and Spirit are most used by killer mains wanting to win consistently in red ranks due to how powerful they are.

    Yeah Spirit doesn't compare to a master Nurse but she can still end chases extremely fast and put insane pressure on survivors with her mobility. It's not exaggerating anything it's just the truth lol

  • Beefmur Beefmur

    instead oc fomplaining about nurse and spirit why not suggest reworks for other killers to make them as good as them for more variety

  • BubbaMain64 BubbaMain64

    @Dizzy1096 said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2036491#Comment_2036491

    Where did you hear this?

    I disagree massively. They are not looking to achieve actual balance long term. They seem like they’re trying to keep the balance they have now.

    Last year they fixed all of the broken windows. Now if you saw the other thread about groaning storehouse you can see they brought the window back. A lot of the maps have stronger windows. Then you have meat plant and its thousand god pallets.

    The fact that they reverted the map balance so hard shows it was an intentional decision to greatly increase the safety of maps for survivors.

    Now they want to nerf freddy who isnt even that strong, ave clown an update that barely increased his strength, want to take away huntress exhaustion hatchets. Nerfed pyramids chase massively even though again he couldnt compete against a good swf

    Whatever happened last year they obviously decided it was too much. This is the level of balance they’re trying to keep. They do not want actual balance.

    I’ve been facing a lot of swf with toolboxes and bnps recently. I went against one yesterday who was streaming. They spoke a different language so i couldnt understand what was being said but I was playing Twins and it was interesting to watch back because someone here nailed it the other day. There was 4 people chilling and laughing and joking all hitting gens, meanwhile im having to work my butt off just to try and stay afloat. The game really is designed to be casual and chill for the majority of players and sadly that means swf. Killer has to suffer so the rest can have a good time. Thats how the game ks balanced. Except its stupid because I only won by camping, tunneling and slugging (I was twins) and played off their altruism. So in the end I dont think anybody had a good time. The game is not balanced around 4 survivors all doing the objective. Its designed with plenty of spare time so that survivors can chill, raid chests, chase the killer around for 2 mins with a flashlight, go moonwalking etc when all 4 are together in a swf and have the combined focus of wanting to do the objective the game breaks.

    If you can't keep up with them then stop playing. Also good advice for this game is to not give a ######### because this game sucks.

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