Why BBQ is superior to its Survivor counterpart We Are Gonna Live Forever - and how to change that
I won't drop a wall of text here. Everyone clicking the title knows the two perks, so I will give short summaries:
BBQ:
- Has a very decent side effect that gives the killer a ton of information
- Scales off of something that, on average, will definitely happen each game. Getting stacks is almost a guaranteed natural thing.
WGLF:
- Has no other effect than points
- Stacks off of situations that aren't that easy to reach. Stacks are not "guaranteed" as only one out of 4 survivors will be allowed to unhook a person and depending on the game, this might never happen. The other option is Protection. Either take a hit for a mate directly, or eat one when he's being carried around. This makes it a rather situational perk.
- It once was a lot better (and capped at 200%, meaning 50% per stack so even 2 stacks could give you a 100% more points)
The problem: The 200% increased points caused people to farm others off the hook. You know how that goes, unhook, killer will eventually down him again, unhook him once more. Easy points, horrible game for the other person.
A suggestion:
- Remove Stacks from Unhooks. Add Stacks for Healing one state and for the person wiggling free (everyone who had the protection event in the last 30 seconds gets granted a stack). This would encourage people to help carried survivors and make sure they're actually fine after saving them.
EDIT: Self Care is excluded from this action. Stacks will only be granted on healing others.
Bring back it's old form and/or add a positive side effect, such as a little boost for healing others (Not on the level of We'll Make it but enough to be a nice side effect). There also could be an effect that works contrary to the killers perk, while he can see you from a certain distance with BBQ - the survivor (rescuer and unhooked one) could be allowed to see the killer if X meters away, which would allow the perk to give valuable information similar to BBQ.
Positive meta side effect of such changes: "Savior" perk layouts would be more rewarding to play.
F* it, I lied. It is a wall of text now. I hope some of you made it through. Feel free to give your own ideas.
Comments
Must the survivor's point generator be as good as the killers?
I thought it was an asymmetrical game with killers having the power role.
Power role in terms of gameplay, sure thing. They also already generate points more easily, so why not at least balance out the 100% perk to be more of a thing for Survivors.
Bloodpoints are bloodpoints. It doesn't matter where they are earned. If you want to completely max out all perks on survivors, it actually takes more bloodpoints than it does on killers since survivors have more perks. I'm not suggesting that survivors should inherently earn more bloodpoints. But the myth that survivors don't deserve as many bloodpoints should end. It's my time that deserves compensation if I play equally well.
Which is wrong. Having more bloodpoints at your disposal means you have more access to high quality items and add ons that you can bring into a match to make you … gasp … "stronger".
Or, very freak idea right here, you could play a ton of killer because it earns bloodpoints easier to then spend them on the Survivor gasp
Because killer need more bloodpoints.
They lose their stuff every match, while survivor can refill their items for free ingame.
And they can keep their stuff and use it multiple matches.
And survivor aren't even dependable on items, while a lot of killer really need their add ons to perform decent.
And don't twist what I said, please.
I did not mention any nerfs to BBQ, but also a buff to WGLF is not needed and would recreate the problems that we faced when WGLF was introduced.
Enjoy the long waiting times.
My main issue with We're gonna farm forever is when a killer sucks donkey ass, and can barely get people downed, so I can get 1 stack at most, and then have to leave the game.
You can't have a good game as a survivor and still get stacks, while as a killer hooking the survivors is part of your objective, and not that hard. When I play as killer, I get 3 stacks at least. As a survivor I am lucky if I get 2 stacks. Which is why I prefer playing killer, because BBQ helps me find people, and it is easy to get stacks. We're gonna farm forever... rarely gives me a stack, and a lot of times is a wasted perk slot.
Even if WGLF gets buffed, killers would still get more points? A survivor gets 15k the same match a killer gets 25-30k.
That's exactly the reason why I started this thread to begin with: BBQ is part of your objective anyways, if you have a normal game you will have stacks, no matter what. If the game goes really well, you will have maximum stacks.
If a Survivors game goes normal, or even perfect, he will probably have 0 stacks. Because someone being hooked and you getting the safe is going out of your way a lot.
Make it easier for survivors to gain BP and the only advantage to play killer is gone.
Now guess how that would affect the queues (btw, this was the reason why BBQ was introduced back in the days, to get more killers again )
Superior in power - maybe.
But the point gain on WGLF is just atrociously bad. No reason to take that perk. That was what I was refering to. The token gain is just incredibly unbalanced - for one side it is something very natural. For the other side, it is going out of their way. Not really that cool.
Now that comment is one of the most ridiculous things I have read on this forum so far. You will still gain a shitton more points than Survivors. I was just refering to making the tokens easier to obtain, as it is pretty stupid to only get the full tokens in what? 1 out of 4 or 5 games without going WAY out of your way?
BBQ was NEVER introduced to "fix queues" (unless you can provide solid proof for this claim). The mechanic of it was to follow an anti-tunnel playstyle (hook different survivors instead of only 1) to be then rewarded for it (25% for each unique hook).
You already get to keep your addons. In theory you could easily get a 10k match without escaping and IF you escape you get to keep your items which would amount to up to 12k bloodpoints. If you pack in a farmbuild with WGLF, finding chests and the perk from ace that lets you get rare addons then you get similar BP to what a killer makes if he hooks every survivor at least once.
Now if they manage to get the full totems most of the time, you will gain the same bp as you do right now as a killer. However as survivor you don't depend on items and even if you bring some, you keep them after a win.
Do you remember die times when wglf was strong as he'll? Everybody played survivor and there were 45 mim queue times.
It doesn't matter whether you tunnel or not, you only need to hook everyone once and fact is, once you tune led the first game you slowed down the game hard enough in order to play with the other 3 survivors
Killer should earn more because he has the harder job.
That's a funny comment, especially after mid-chapter.
@DeadByFlashlight
The queue times never were that bad. I was one of the people who ran that perk and took a good look at how the BP generation for Survivors was. Never had an issue during the time. The reason for the nerf was that people would just farm others off the hook way too often. There were discussions about changing the token system back then but they went with the obvious band-aid.
And tunneling? Sorry, but I am the type of killer who tries to enjoy the game without playing that scummy. I will never tunnel, camp or whatever. Call it a handycap but I actually enjoy the game a lot more this way (and I'm getting a lot more points out of games this way).
Why is it funny?^^ Even after the survivor nerfs it's still absolutely true.
Btw I am quite certain that BBQ was introduced as anti-camping tool, but having more people play killer because it yields more bloodpoints is definitely a side effect that came with it.
And for WGLF: have you tried playing without perks at all? Just for fun? If you are good, you won't really have a problem doing so - most games won't go that differently. And that's exactly the difference between killer and survivor: if a killer goes without perks, he/she will have a noticeably worse time than with perks. That's why it's ok that killers get some extra benefits with their perks because they need it.
I think it's reasonable to let the survivor sacrifice a perk slot for a little more bloodpoints, and I also believe it's fine to have the bp reward discrepancy between k and s.
Where I feel your pain though is when it comes to grinding in DbD, which I guess is probably why you are frustrated about the less reward for survivors. In that point I'd agree, it takes way too long to actually upgrade your characters, it's ridiculous. I've had the game for almost a year now, have played unspeakable amounts of hours (as I find) and have on average all characters only on prestige 1.5 or so.
So increasing the overall points earned or reducing bloodweb costs would be nice while keeping the differences.
There is nothing wrong with playing casually. If you wanna take a relaxed game and dont focus on killing, then this is your choice and not scummy at all.
You do realized you inadvertently pointed out proof as to why the people asking for more survivor points are right.... right?
All the killer’s complaining about lobby times if WGLF is buffed are insane! 1) were asking for easier tokens, not more. 2) killers are currently having absolute ass queue times EVERY SINGLE FREAKIN EVENT, there IS NOT ENOUGH SURVIVORS. 3) WGLF gives 1/4 the survivor team more points, bbq is the whole team. The stupid 1/4 philosophy can’t be twisted and turned any way one of us wants. Quit using it, it’s bullshit. It’s only applicable to actual math where it effects everyone. WGLF gives points to ONE SURVIVOR. DS GIVES TIME TO EVERY SURVIVOR FOR EACH USE
lol
There is not enough survivor"? Are you kidding me? It's the matchmaking that is broken/bugged.
There is a frickin lot of survivor, but killer do not get lobbies anyway.
It's a technical issue.
And there ist no "killer complaining about lobbies". We just point out that survivor will start complaining about lobbies (again) if WGLF gets buffed.
But yea, enjoy shooting yourself in the knee.^^
WGLF got nerfed to solve a SURVIVOR ISSUE.
But you choose to ignore that.
Your logic is just.... hmmm... I'm trying really hard to think of a word that isn't too insulting. Wrong. Let's go with wrong. I've run tests before on how much bloodpoints I get on a killer with BBQ vs a survivor with WGLF and the results are disgusting.
Anyone that wants to claim that there is any semblance of balance in bloodpoints gained between survivors and killers, I would ask to take the following challenge. Play 20 games as a killer running BBQ. Then play 20 games as a survivor running WGLF. Record the lobby wait times, game times, and total bloodpoints earned for all games. Offerings should have same impact on both sides. No sandbagging. Post the results.
"No sandbagging". There, if you don't want to farm it's your deal. on my survivors I will do unsafe unhooks on purpose, after max BP i leave the game, the BP/hour ratio is basically the same if you cheese
You’re absolutely delusional if you think making WGLF tokens easier to get (so you actually reach 100%) will hurt lobby’s.
Didn't read this thread but We're gonna live forever used to be much more powerful and was made into the near useless state that it is now on purpose. The reason for this being that survivors don't need encouragement to farm their team mates. While BBQ actively encourages not camping a hook.
Lol entitled survivor mains always wanting buffs.. Newsflash.. Your already OP
It's not about what I think, it's about what happend when WGLF was better.
It already happend before and that was the reason WGLF got nerfed to it's current state.
It's not "believing", it's just experience.
“Help! This survivor is making equal pay! They sky is falling!”
You think he’ll accept that idea? He rejected making the 100% more consistent, he’s insane. 150% could actually cause issues.
More consistent 100% is not a buff back to 200%. You’re being ridiculous
WGLF isn’t gonna give tokens for farming. That’s no excuse anymore for the perks problems
And you get that stats from … where exactly?
Personal experience?
May you are just bad and that why you see so many 4ks.
Sorry, but your claim is pretty bold and not backed up by anything.
I don’t think he even needs any when the original claim was trying to insinuate making more ways to get WGLF tokens would be OP. That’s just pure logic needed to dismantle it
OR
2) every unhook or protection could give 37,5% BP bonus, within a maximum of 150% BP bonus.
And where is that proof?
I am III-50 myself, I have prestiged all my killer and all survivor at lvl 50, because survivor are not worth to prestige them.
I have almost 2400 hours in this game, right now I am rank3 killer, and my experience says you are wrong.
So there is your claim versus mine, does that prove anything?
Your talking about ad hominem but use strawmen arguments. rolleyes
My proposal about WGLF buff is oriented to increase its effectiveness:
1) healing a mate hurt or in dying state, unhooking or protecting others could all be stackable;
OR
2) every unhook or protection could give 37,5% BP bonus, within a maximum of 150% BP bonus.
I just requote your false statement:
This claim is simply wrong. The Devs didn't show any newer stats, but not a single killer was anywhere near a 3k killrati back when the Devs still showed stats.
And those stats included DCs as kills.
Most killer are close to 2k per match.
And those stats had been global across all ranks.
So in low rank matches you get more kills and in high rank matches you get less kills.
This is not about balance, but about skill.
And calling it "the vast majority" is close to a lie.
I did not ignore any argument, I didn't see one.
Just some biased personal attack about me hating survivor. shrug