Twins = slugging
Let me start with prefacing I had enjoyed the twins in the PTB, the idea was cool and refreshing.
That said, after versing them quite often since release, I am really starting to hate them.
Pretty much 95% of the competent killers at red ranks go for a slug fest. There are so many games where you end up with 2-3 and even 4 people slugged.
This is NOT fun at all from a survivor perspective. It is even worse than being camped as it completely ruins a players experience.
Tofu and Scott also made videos to discuss this.
I think something needs to be done, I don't care about winning in DBD but I care about having fun and being slugged is the antithesis of fun.
Please help us Devs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snNWS3q-grM&ab_channel=OhTofu
Comments
@keygun
So for some reason you seem to think balance is bad?
I don’t even wanna know. Peace out.
Then why ask?
I'm all for balance, but survivor mains want ds and ub built into base kit.
Get over yourself.
@keygun
Maybe refrain from putting words into peoples mouth and they might take you serious.
You don’t even know what I want nor what is being discussed in this discussion considering your response.
see your way out.
Lmao, have you seen almo play? He's the last person you would be making this request to if you had.
Lol.
Seriously, you did the same thing assuming I don't want balance.
I never said balance was bad, I'm just pointing out that 1 killer needs enough power to face 4 survivors.
Also, it's in the title of the game.
Quit being disrespectful.
@keygun
You respond to my response to someone else while calling me a “survivor main crying” simply because I state how excessive slugging is not balanced, but I am the disrespectful one.... 🤔
All while I am not a survivor main as I actually play both sides with prestiged characters and at red ranks to prove it. But go ahead and pop off about how much of a “crying survivor main I am”
Disrespectful comments like "see your way out" as if you actually made a point or added anything to the argument.
Your opinion is that slugging isn't balanced?
That's your opinion.
But as a killer, you have full free reign over how you decide to kill.
It's not even an issue of balance tho, you just don't like being slugged.
What are you doing to change that?
Are you bringing ub or other anti slug perks that I can't remember the names of?
Or are you just calling something "unbalanced" because it doesn't fit your personal play style?
I'm trying to add to the convo, you're just being angry.
@keygun
Just because you disagree doesn’t mean it is balanced.
And killers have a billions of ways to slow gens down and they still complain about "genrushing". Different sides of the same coin.
As well as this, they are very good at camping and tunneling, so there's two problematic playstyles in one.
Also the fact that the killer isn't punished for messing up and getting Victor crushed; and it's not hard to spread the pain with him, either.
Unbreakable meta confirmed? Yeah, it's annoying, it's like 80%+ of my games against Twins, slug contest.
Exactly. I’ve literally been saying that I hate versing the twins now. At first it was fine, then everybody who uses the twins started just slugging, camping, and tunneling. Now i hate versing the twins. It’s not fun at all. If you kick victor it should take him like 40 or 50 seconds to become available again, not 8 seconds or whatever it is. It’s like it literally doesn’t even matter if somebody kicks him because you get him back seconds later.
If anything, kicking victor just helps the killer since it brings him closer to Charlotte.
Yess, this also.
Oh, i forgot to add: almost instantly.
The twins get punished if Victor gets smashed, you have to start back at the beginning.
Imagine blinking twice as nurse, but bc you miss you get teleported back to original blink location.
It completely breaks chase if Victor is crushed while away, and it breaks my heart every time that little guy dies.
See, thing is, you're still not engaging with what I'm saying. Your counterargument to what I'm saying about balance issues is "well, I have fun and think it's fine, so there!" That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but don't claim that you're making "counterarguments" or advancing the discourse, because you're really not. I'm not trying to be flippant, and I'm not trying to insult anyone; you're the one who replied to me with a wall of text and basically said (whatever you claim) that I should "leave the game if I'm so bored" which you'll note is something I never said. It's like you're arguing with some alternate reality version of me that's saying all these things that I haven't said (strawman, anyone?)
You don't need to spend a paragraph rehashing what I said about the pointlessness of arguing with someone who has a completely opposing and entrenched viewpoint in the absence of any hard evidence (actually, even in presence of hard evidence people with opposing viewpoints aren't really much better at convincing the other one to change their views).
Have a good day.
so you're quitting the discussion, you have the right to but that just shows you can't even discuss what was there. you claimed "I have fun and think it's fine so there... well that's not what I said in the slightest, so you feel that you can make things up and not have a proper discussion, please have a great day and enjoy yourself while others continue the discussion.
I was the one saying slugging takes more time to kill than a hook, and it IS, you wanting or not, a downside.
And NO, it is not "FREE", it is a trade of, you don't hook, that is the way the game gives killer points and emblem, in trade of not losing the time it takes to grab a survivor, take him to the hook, and the hook animation.
What you don't understand is that the killer doesn't want to slug, he needs to. No one killer is going to a match thinking "Oh, it will be so fun just leave survivors on the ground", the killers want their points and emblems too, but if they always keep being inefficient they will just lose.
You think that the solution is nerfing slugging, what is in itself *NERFING THE KILLERS*, AGAIN!
The better solution would be BUFF the killers in general. there are a lot of ways of doing it, pick one: Nerfing gen speed, Speeding killers pick up time animation and hooking animation, buffing killers mov speed while carrying a survivor.
Make something more viable than slugging, instead to nerf the only viable option.
Its kinda sad tbh cause even high profile twitch streamers who have NEVER played dirty before this point (a specific one I'm thinking of) have turned to camping with this new killer, on the reasoning that that was what this killer was designed to do. And honestly.. they're right. This killer excels at the camping game.
My solution to this problem is a bit more comprehensive than what most people are suggesting.
I think that there should be a total rehaul on survivor perks. Right now there are too many perks for too many nuanced effects. A lot of perk effects should be compiled so that you can will rarely ever have a perk without some use. For example: Botany knowledge should allow you to also stifle bleeding on yourself/friendly targets (with a cooldown). Borrowed time should also have Babysitter blended in. Leader and Prove Thyself should be one perk. Fixated should allow you to walk without triggering traps/alerting victor. Etc
How does this tie into the Twins? Well, if there were more utility from common perks, you could potentially run a healer set that can help with bleeding - which would help with victor. Using borrowed time wouldn't just save you from a hit, but also help you from being tracked by the killer at least for a few seconds. Iron will could be combined with Lucky Break. I dunno if you're feeling what I'm saying but - using other perks rather than the meta perks should be optional and fun and if they have helpful effects for more than just 1 killer, that would be awesome.
Look at Sole Survivor for example. This perk would kill for slugging killers with Deerstalker or wallhack myers. But why would anyone pick those perks now, if it only works for a single scenario? Having compiled perks would make the game more fun and exciting and help with tons of new situations that we haven't experienced yet. Presently I try to run BT and babysitter to counter the twins and sometimes I use Lucky Break myself, but it sucks when i pick babysitter and luckybreak but then the killer isn't the twins - and I just wasted 2 perks.
The idea of buffing underperforming perks is good. But you are going in the completly wrong direction, you want to buff survivors even further, while the game is already heavily survivor sided.
Killer slug to save time, since they DON'T have the time to hook survivors and defend gens.
The solution would be Buffing Killers, so they wouldn't NEED to slug, and they wouldn't feel like they need to camp/tunnel. Or nerfing survivors, a gen speed nerf would take a lot of presure on the killer side.
If you keep Buffing survivors the Killers will feel like the only way they can win is using the most broken killers, addons and tatics that they can find. The weaker Killers will be seen less and less, since they will not just be destroyed, but they will be humiliated by toxic survivors.
I know that you meant to nerf the twins by changing something else, the idea is the right one, but what to change is the wrong thing.
The problem is, in my experience, it's not just the twins anymore. I've seen other killers who are good at sluggin, like Wraith, start to do it more often. I don't know if it's killer frustration or killers have been reminded how effective slugging is. All I know is I don't care about escaping. Just having fun...and bloodpoints. I get neither from lying on the ground for 2 mins. I've started to run Unbreakable, Soulguared, DS, Deadhard with some success. Will see if it continues. Only other option I can think of is give survivors bloodpoints for sniffing the ground.
Billions? really? Killers have only 2 realiable perks, pop and ruin/undying, if they had more it wouldn't be the choice almost every match.
Gen rushing is not a thing, that is the only thing survivors HAVE to do.
Gen speeds are the thing that is causing all the unfun things that survivors complain. If the Killers had more time to do stuff they wouldn't need to tunnel and slugg. They have to be efficient if they want to win.
Soul guard works if there is a hex totem up.
How will faster crawling help against slugging ? You said there are other perks that let you get up too...
You think killers are that stupid and leave no mither guy on the ground ? ######### :'D Yes, maybe it works on you as a killer
And here we are again, unbreakable is the only perk against slugging that you can use once, after that you're ######### unless someone else has it.
Slugging with the Twins is so easy. I've given up on playing nicely as surv and as killer. Twins is my new fav killers to get survivors dc. No perks, no addons, ez slugfest, ez 4k.
POP, Undying, Ruin, Corrupt, Dying Light, Thrilling, Discordance, Surveillance, Tinkerer.
well i only talked about things that are out there i did not say it was a perfect solution, but right now with pop/undying soul guard works quite well and crawling faster (AND recovering) will let you move away from where you were slugged while recovering, possibly to another survivor that could finish getting you up. or crawling to the hatch to escape. still slugging is a valid tactic and it is not forbidden by the rules of the game. but thing is you're going to complain about everything no matter what is said unless it directly benefits the survivor. this argument happened when the oni came out, and it'll happen again... you'll notice that oni didn't get much of a change and was bugged when he first game out too. only survivor mains can talk, killer mains that bring up their grievances here are told to get better, when they HAVE to play on their A GAME to get pips and get advanced if that's their goal!!!! but now it's oh woe is me, this killer is a slugger only! this killer needs a nerf!!!!!! EVERY DAMN chapter it's that way, and the nerfs hapen and you are NEVER happy as it keeps happening every match. killers who need to be fixed are ignored, freddy is getting modified ONCE AGAIN (second time since his re-work) and nurse hasn't been fixed since her rework showed how broken she can be. billy gets changed when there was no need for it.
what would your game be like if everyone that played killer STOPPED playing killer? what would the survivors do then? play killer? ok what happens when the next chapter comes out the survivors will cry nerf and the cycle continues!
Perks that you say that actually regress the gen: POP,Ruin,
Perks that you say that doesn't regress the gen: Undying, Corrupt, D. L., Thrilling, Discordance (REALLY?), Surveillance (again, REALLY?), Tinkerer.
Killers need more perks that actually regress the gens. As strong as Ruin and POP.
I didn't play the PTB but did jump on the 1st day they were out and had a lot of fun learning about victor and playing with people who had just gotten this killer. I liked the concept and the whole story is nice and creepy. So it was a real disappointment when people started to get real toxic with is and just slugged everyone right away. Within 3 days I was dreading getting this killer because everyone in the game was depipping with under 10k bp and the killer was only getting like 14k bp (maybe) off a 4k. They probably pipped but really we were all losing. I can't imagine this outcome was not seen when they put the killers abilities on paper, but maybe they thought it wouldn't be this bad. IDK, but it has become a real bummer.
Not all perks need to regress gens to help you with gens. You should know that.
Slugging is Part of the Game.
As many pointed out in the PTB, switching back and forth between characters and moving two characters doesn't work in the context of a trial. For a simple example, you land an M1 hit:
With Blight, you perform a rush attack for a quick follow up and down them, then hook them.
With the Twins, you deploy Victor (because Charlotte does nothing of note), regain the distance you lost, hopefully down them on the first pounce, switch back to Charlotte, wait 3 seconds for her to wind up, then walk over to the downed survivor to pick them up and hook them. That's such a ridiculously inefficient process to do the same exact thing as any other killer.
So what's the workaround for the Twins? Proxy hooks with Victor, slug off the hook, latch onto the healthy survivor, and create a snowball. The only way to even approach baseline efficiency with this killer is to employ a super unfun playstyle. Again, experienced killers were shouting this from the rooftops during the PTB. It was obvious from the outset.
They put so many restrictions on what the killer can do that they essentially pigeonholed them into a playstyle. I can't summon Charlotte to downed survivors, so the most efficient thing is often to get multiple slugs going or risk losing my pressure entirely. I can't recall Victor on demand, so I need to leave him around places I know for a fact survivors will go, like hooks. I can't save Victor for loops all that well, because Charlotte takes a year to activate.
Approved, extremly booring to play aginst them when slugging
It's not what I'm saying at all, we need a variety of perks to choose, and viable regression perks are lacking, we need more or else every match will have or pop or ruin/undying when the killers can afford the perks, some killers will take both.
The thing is, we have a lot of perks that slow the game down, but they do it in different ways than actually regressing the gens, and the ones that actually regress gens are meta for a reason, we need more of those.
Unbreakable is meta since,at least, 2018 mate.
No one will want to play survivor if the killer brings 4 perks that regress gens. Why do you think people complained about forever freddy?
Killers are different, forever freddy had slow down IN his power.
If the killer brings 4 regress gen perks, normally they have no synergy, like pop and ruin, and their build will lack other areas, like perks for chase or info.
And yeah, you must think that the killer find it amazing and really fun when survivors take 4 second chances perks, better yet, 4 survivors with 4 second chance perks, must be a hoot.
Btw, they just got another one with the new survivor.
Its not like we have 5 other killers who slug, oh right, we do
Be thinking killers have a lot of gen defense perks means I find it amazing and fun that survivors take 4 second chance perks. Yes. and 1+1=3
just comparing something that YOU said is unfun for survs but was taken out, and something that is unfun for the killers and still here.
Mate, you you want to be petty it won't go anywhere, you have no argument, and are trying to be banal. I'm done.
Ask anyone how fun it would be to go against 4 slowdown perks. Anyone who isn't bias would say it would be unfun. If you need 4 slowdown perks it means you arent pressuring gens and just need to get better.
You need to improve your interpretation, I'm been saying that we need more options, and you keep making excuses.
Don't talk about bias, you are being hypocritical.
Having more slow down perks doesn't mean they will all be used together. Is like assuming survivors will build a 4 healing perks build. It doesn't even mean that they will have synergy, like most survivors healing perks already don't have, and both the regress gen perk already doesn't have.
When I said that there is unfun things that killer has to face, you just shrugged off, there will always be unfun things to play against.
Actually read this time, please.
I did interpret everything just fine.
Why do you think it is ok for you to assume they wont be used together but it is not ok for me to assume they will?
This thread is not about things that are unfun to face that survivors use, if you read the title, it's about the twins being good at slugging.
So why did you start talking about unfun things that survivor had to face.
You keep changing the subject, then just says that doesn't matter. You clearly don't know what you are talking about or even how to make an argument, you just keep throwing things without context and when it gets nowhere you just says that it isn't relevant.
Mate, just stop.
You mean unfun things like slugging? Yea, that is what the thread was about.
Slugging is a bloody common 'tactic' on red ranks, to the point that I think these people are in some saw-style trap that'll drive spikes into their throats or something if they don'T get a 4k in under 5 min or something.
Red Ranks.... say banana if you're life *is* in danger should you play non-scummy...
Like forever freddy. Slugging is necessary not only on twins, is not killer specific, they are just more efficient on doing so.
This thread is about twins slugging. it's in the title. Please read.
I know it is about them, I was talking with someone and you jump in, saying things that were not even right. And YOU talked about forever freddy, and YOU talked about unfun things. I'm just making a point here.
What a toxic and selfish answer. This game has two sides that are equally important to this game. You are clearly part of the toxicity problem that dbd has.