PGTW vs DS Bias - Discussion.
The DS vs PGTW situation hasn't been around too long, however since the announcement of the mid patch there's been a lot of talk and discussions and I want to summarise my reasons for the clear and blatant bias toward survivors.
- Ds is far more broken and unfair than pop - yet pop receives a nerf and we hear nothing regarding ds - a popular comment from "Almo" recently stating that they nerfed pop due to "having it up too long able to do other things" which is the exact reasoning which can be applied to DS.
- The main issue people have, including me, isn't more that PGTW has been nerfed, it's the reasoning behind it yet not applying it to other things like DS - on top of the fact the devs have said NOTHING about the DS situation and remain silent I find very insulting.
- DS's power compared to PGTW is disgusting - You can on average pull of 5-7 PGTW's before the game is over - let's be honest you're not going to hit 11-12 pops every single game, maybe 1 in a good good few as the game will be over. The timing lost on pop is quite huge to walk over to a gen, kick it etc - even sometimes not getting use out of it. --- The devs seem to forget every survivor in the match can use DS - if a survivor is competent that's 4 MINUTES of immunity - most survivors jump in a locker or work on a gen in front of your face (The argument for take the stun is ridiculous as the time a survivor will gain from a DS is disgusting - 20 seconds distance if the hold W - more if they find a loop)
- Pyramid hid vs DS and unbreakable- The reason behind Pyramid head's changes was because the devs believed that the executioner had to much power in the department of placing his sword down - putting the survivor in a LOSE/LOSE situation and thought this was unfair- yet can't we apply this exact reason to DS/Unbreakable? - if you down the survivor working on a gen right in front of you you either pick him up and get stunned or leave him so he can just get himself back up and work on gens - leaving the killer in a LOSE/LOSE situation - yet the devs remain silent, hmm.
- Survivors complain about Hex Undying/ Ruin - the funny thing is now because survivors have complained about PGTW and obviously the devs listen to that rather than ds/UB they've nerfed the only competition Rui/Undying had - now I can assure you despite the change being small a lot of killers will be using hex rui/undying a lot more due to this change.
At the end of the day the bias - despite me not wanting to say it - is just obviously there, the devs don't hide the bias as seen in the perk changes - the survivor perk changes are a lot better than the killer ones, the only decent change being Trails of Torment, the rest are useless let's be honest it's not game changing/ won't change the meta. The devs cannot make changes to killers and their perks with little reason and little complaints yet when ds has been complained about for years - refuse to change it even when the reasoning for PGTW's change is the EXACT SAME if not more reason to change DS.
Devs - please stop remaining silent regarding this UB/DS combo - it is abused beyond belief- even if you change it so the moment a survivor interacts with a gen/heal/locker etc - so they're not being "tunnelled" it deactivates - the devs have stated on stream before and times in the past it's an anti-tunnelling perk, anti momentum should NOT exist - punishing the killer for doing well is not fair.
The change I have stated would be needed to stop situations where you've chased, downed,hooked someone else - kicked a gen - found a survivor - you down him - pick him up - he still has DS. If he still has DS and the killer is baffled since he hasn't tunnelled etc - it's beyond abused and this one perk is the MOST controversial in DBD without a doubt.
Comments
yet here we have an actual scoring event to do just that with protection hits...... sorry the gameplay suggest other wise that it is intended for survivors to do just that.
Sure, but protection hits need to have a consequence. Perks that make you invincible force the killer into lose lose situations.
Just because two perks are strong does not mean they are similar. Not at all.
First of all your comparisons of Pop goes the Weasel and DS are not fair. A killer can always use Pop to their free will after they hook a survivor within the time limit, DS only activates if they get downed and picked up within one minute after being hooked. Yes, they do have immunity, and with Unbreakeable it's particularly strong, but those are also two perks, not one. I'm not saying a nerf to DS would be bad, but I play killer at rank 1 constantly and I just don't see how the perk is that terrible, and I have at least the comprehension abilties to understand why they nerfed Pop in this patch but not DS.
The fact that people still claim that the devs are so survivor biased is just baffling to me though. And you know, because BHVR is so survivor biased, they made a huge patch with many map changes that pretty much all were in favor of the killer, and slightly increased repair time for survivors if they team up on a gen. Because they are biased they also made many other good changes for killers in the past, like the removal of pallet vaccuum, the decrease in pallets on a map, the increase of healing time from 12 to 16 seconds, and big buffs to Doctor, Leatherface and particularly Freddy. Yes some killers and perks have received nerfs in the past, and a few survivor aspects have been buffed as well, but how on earth does one come to the conclusion that the devs are survivor biased?
Also, I don't quite see how the survivor perk buffs are better than the killer buffs. If they do it right, Thana could actually end up being a good slowdown perk, and the buff to Trails of Torment also looks pretty damn good.
One more thing, Almo replied to a thread as to why Pop was nerfed, and gave an understandable reasoning for it. At least it's understandable to those with actual brains. Yet then someone had to draw direct comparisons to DS and people started talking about how Almo got burned and how their reply was stupid and shows their survivor bias, which is honestly just so stupid and cringe at this point. And now you are wondering why the devs aren't communicating more and explaining why DS wasn't nerfed? To a community that has way too many immature man childs?
Just because one perk gets nerfed doesn't mean other perks that could be nerfed for similar reasons need to be nerfed in the same patch. You don't know why DS wasn't nerfed. Maybe they are still uncertain as to how to nerf the perk properly. In the end it's the only reliable perk to help against tunneling that you can use on yourself.
He didn't screw up. Immature minds like you just think he did something terrible because they get offended by anything. He explained the thought process of why Pop was nerfed, you can disagree, but that reasoning is there and it's at least understandable. The fact that they didn't nerf DS in the same patch for the same reasons is not the end of the world, and doesn't mean the devs only care about survivors.
Just look at how so many immature people are going crazy over his response, how are you people surprised that he hasn't replied anymore regarding this topic?
DS is a pain in the ass, but hopefully they change object too. That ######### kills matches.
How many times do you get 11 PGTW in a game? By the time you get 8-9 PGTW's, you've already won the game.
DS buys you more time than Pop does.
LITERALLY only been a year since it got reworked
"My god 5 second stun is so bad" Most of y'all grow a pair because life ain't fair sorry you're trying to squash matches or trying to tunnel ds only buy you 5 sec if you can knock survivor down you can do it again. Most of you need to grow up pgtw and ds are completely different perks. Stop this we vs them debate because it's sickening
Yes, cause DS only happens when you tunnel. Play both sides, then you're allowed to have a valid opinion.
The perks are not similar in usability, but the reason that they nerfed Pop can also be applied to Decisive Strike.
I do I don't mind ds if you don't like ds then stop playing the game if you can't deal with a 5 sec stun once in a match.
I do and I don't mind ds that much. 5 sec isn't bad. I mean if you don't like the perk and want to make a we vs them debate the I suggest don't play the game. And my opinion is valid as yours.
It actually applies more to DS. At least the killer had to earn Pop's usage.
This we vs them debate sucks ass don't like it don't play the ######### game my god there is 20 for us uploads of that :/
@SloppyKnockout
When you consider that the reason DS was made to activate upon unhook, it makes it very clear that Camping and Tunneling off hook are more common than you think. Two actions which get sidelined and are BUILT-IN mechanics (which means you didn't do anything to "earn" them) they simply exist within the game and are available through the entirety of the match. So while DS doesn't really require an action to happen, it also doesn't guarantee that you will get to use it. Unlike PGTW and after every hook.
This is why the comparison of the two is flawed. You can't dissect parts of it you think are the same when the rest pretty much have no indication that they are similar.
I mean it's your opinion and it's invalid to me because you want be a dick because I said my opinion so take your attitude somewhere else.
I 100% agree do you know how many times I get tunnel off of hook especially with an ebony
No, we will debate this because they both influence how long the match will last directly, pgtw slows gens by getting downs and DS gives the survivors the option to do plays that normally would be a lot more risky as well as waste a lot of the killers time when it gets used.
Both perks affect how long the match will last by a very considerable amount so comparing them is very reasonable. If you can't grasp that than maybe don't argue about it especially when those 5 seconds actually get 20+ seconds to the survivor and sometimes the killer has to completely let that survivor go if they make it to a good area. this isn't just if the survivor gets tunneled, that is abusable because of its long timer and if you have played in high ranks you see it abused constantly.
You reasoning is good but it doesn't acknowledge how a match usually plays out and the most important aspect of the game time. for the purpose to simplify my reasoning we will use how matches go in high level play and because most perks should be balanced around it anyway.
pgtw is very simple you get rewarded for hooking someone and you can regress gens by 25%. This slows the game by a lot when you use it every time and its always possible for it to become activated.
DS however is complex because of how it be used and it also depends on if the killer activates it. The reason it can be compared to pgtw is because of the amount of time it wastes and the progress on gens it can allow. A survivor who gets unhooked can simply go to a gen and work on it until the timer expires and if they also run unbreakable their is no way for the killer to punish and benefit significantly by going after them or downing them other than the stop the gen progress, getting a good survivor who just used DS can take anywhere from 20 seconds to over a minute depending on the area they go to and their skill. You also have to acknowledge that the survivor role is team based and the amount of progress being made on gens by other survivors from this interaction. While it is true that DS doesn't always get used the way you can use it to basically ignore the threat of being hooked for a minute.
TLDR: they both influence the match greatly be affecting how long it lasts AND both affect gen progress. pgtw directly and DS indirectly.
I would argue that Trail is worse than the version now is. 16 seconds can be more than enough time to find someone. Survivors being in control of your perk is not fun.
Thank you for stating what needs to be said.
Sadly they don't realize that this "pleasing the masses" mentality is killing their own game. The look at cold numbers and respond accordingly. Those numbers are the player base. More players main survivors than killers. However, every time they make a change based on number of people they please they are widening the gap. More concessions to survivors, more killers quit. Eventually the game will need killer bots to keep survivors from complaining about long lobby times.
Fun fact: I CANNOT disable crossplay for whatever reason. I'm stuck dealing with this crap until the day the game dies.
Have you tried turning it off in the main menu? Because when in a mode you can't but in the menu you can
also, note the fact that killers desperately NEED to multi task, whereas survivors already start with 4 people. so if anything, DS should have its timer reduced, while Pop should stay as is.
You do know how bhvr works right?
Don’t count on ds being nerfed anytime soon 😉
Unfortunately the devs are very survivor biased instead of staying neutral, and they don't even hide it which I personally find it even worse.
Maybe in the far future they will change but I have a feeling that that will never happen
Agree with this point - as I say I hate being judgemental and saying it but the way the devs do things some times it really does lean toward the survivor side and it is very obvious sometimes.
As someone who plays both sides it is PAINFUL how clear and obvious Devs Bias towards DS is when factoring in their decision to Nerf Pop, and it becomes increasingly so much harder to sympathize with survivors who actively ignore or straight up refuse to acknowledge this and the subsequent problems that Decisive Strike creates.
Decisive Strike has never ONCE been balanced in four years, it is egregious how long this perk has existed as one of the oldest perks in all of DBD and yet always has remained a point of high contention and controversy for basically it's entire lifetime. Never once has the perk ever been properly balanced by the dev team and despite that the knowledge of why it is broken is now widespread common knowledge even to younger players who only freshly and recently joined, action is still not being taken.
Or if it is being taken, it is not being properly communicated about which I would argue is equally bad. The community is livid and rightly so about the combined mismanagement and inaction of four years in regards to this one perk. When the tables were reversed, the idea of reworking Hex: Ruin received nowhere near this much pushback from killers that the idea of reworking Decisive has from Survivors. Killers took their medicine for their broken, un-fun, meta perk a long time ago and now it's time for survivors to do the same. That is called balance.
And guess what? Ruin was tamed from previous incarnation and was fine after it's rework, it's still a quality and powerful perk that we see people use all the time. In all likelihood the same can be said for Decisive, only difference is it'll actually be used for the anti-tunnel purpose it was intended for, and nothing else- nothing more but equally nothing less.
Same here, I really hate to say things like this.
It makes me sound killer biased even though I try to stay as neutral as possible.
But the way they use their wordings and what they said during a Q&A makes it very obvious.
And sure I can understand that they try to please the majority of the playerbase, but they forget if the keep on nerfing/changing killers and perks they push to many people away from one side.
Which creates a more unbalance between the playerbase of killers and survivors.
Also this - it seems to be survivors become very defensive of this perk, they know how broken it is and want to continue to abuse it and don’t want it changed.
Exactly, they have a security of an easy escape when they are off the hook and so they throw themselves at the killer or immediately start working on a gen with the killer close to them.
Seen it happen many times over where I unhook a survivor and instead of wanted to get healed, they run towards the killer just so they can use ds.
And if the killer won't pick them up, they have unbreakable for it.
I personally would love to see it happen where if they get fully healed, work on a gen, unhook another survivor, etc, ds would just deactivate.
It was made so they won't get tunnelled of the hook and if you can do objectives, you sure aren't tunnelled.
And sure I use the perk too, but only for anti tunnel.
And even if I get tunnelled, I rarely get to use it because by the time I downed the chase lasted way longer than my ds timer.
But it's funny how they don't mind when killer perks getting nerfed, but god forbid when a survivor perk gets nerfed. 😂
+1 agree
@Peanits Any ideas or anything behind the scenes regarding DS since everyone's so silent.
my suggested changes to DS:
When DS is active the following happens:
1) Unbreakable and no mither will not let you get up (unbreakable's speedy recovery still works)
2) after the 30 second mark if a player is working on a gen, totem, chest or healing another (already or starts) the perk deactivates
3) if you get in a locker and IS is not healing you DS deactivates (so yes DS still active while IS is healing you)
4) if you are after 30 seconds and 2 or 3 have not deactivated the perk, the perk deactivates at the correct time specified for the perk ie tier 3 is 1 minute.
YES you can still weaponize it but not as badly. It also does not address the fact that the killer can be punished still for being efficient and EGC is not addressed. This is still fair, and limits what can be done to cause issues to the killer yet STILL afford the ESCAPE needed for the survivor.
Though I understand your frustration and apologize for being late to the conversation, isn't your reasoning also the response you seek to your question?
"We play both sides and if you don't you have zero right of speaking."
Well with that in mind, why does it bother you that people suggest if one Killer tool gets nerfed, then a Survivor tool should be given similar judgment as well?
"Let's talk pop." "Wait what about DS?"
"Let's talk mori's." "Wait what about keys?"
I don't think those suggestions are irrelevant, a Killer's Mori can be a shortcut to a victory just as well as a Survivor's key. Furthermore, I would be willing to bet that if say Sloppy Butcher were to receive a nerf, people would rightfully ask well what about Desperate Measures?
These do not sound like irrelevant topics to evade or change the subject at hand, this sounds like looking at the game from both sides. Killers and Survivors each have tools that counter the other, so logically if one gets nerfed then we would ask well why this change here but not the accomplice or counter over there?
It would be like removing scissors from rock paper scissors, or in this case nerfing it. I believe it is right to ask, specifically due to Almo's reasoning, that if Pop Goes the Weasel is loosing its availability by 15 seconds because it granted too much value from its 60 second timer, then why not address the other Survivor perk that also produces a similar effect for 60 seconds?
Its a team game if you feel that oppressed to run ds unbreakable (not to mention you dont need unbreakable lockers) try kindred or be mad at your team fpr not running by and the killer supposed to be the power role your not supppsed to survive if they want you dead theres a reason the perk is called borrowed time it's supposed to buy time for others to do gens so they escape. velawa killer got 4 hooks 1 kill they de pip 3 escape dose that sound lile a loss even though you died?
This - people need to learn it’s a game where both sides matter, not survivors vs killers in balance, it should be equal for both sides in power but also take into consideration it is a 4 v 1, there’s one pop vs 4 DS. That’s 4 mins blanket immunity.
I played the game since mid 2016 and DS was never built in for 15 seconds. Not sure where you got this fact
DS can be used 4 times per game. and since they keep nerfing killers and their perks it makes a us vs them.
Mori's are going to be reworked only after being nerf'd alrdy and the devs cant even fix the balance.
Mori's should only be looked @ when they balance survivors, its a 4 v 1 soooo logically killers should be stronger then a single survivor but they arent in this game.
It’s funny, the “too much time” comment made by Almo doesn’t apply to DS, it’s far more complicated than that.
Lower the timer? This punishes players who can put up a chase against the killer & makes camping the slug a more viable strategy.
Lower timer + timer don’t go down while in chase? Chasing mechanics are still buggy, moonwalking still removes chase & stealth killers like Wraith can just cloak & follow you.
There’s several ideas going round, perhaps make it that when the killer hooks someone else DS is no longer active as you’re no longer being tunelled.
No, DS can be used one time per player. And you only get to use DS if you're getting tunneled or if you're playing ballsy. So the truth is, even if all 4 survivors bring DS, the killer can play in a way so that DS is never used in the match.
And we were not talking about moris at all. Why bring them up? If you think they are fair because "mUH bALancE" then you are just an entitled killer main who wants to win every single match. It's not what multiplayer games are about. Cheers.
Not really since it’s a full minute. You can easily chase another survivor - get them hooked go kick a gen and pick up a survivor and that survivor can still have DS
"the killer can play in a way so that ds is never used in the match" Like you mean letting them get ballsy saves and slugging so that they can use it in the endgame? Like if a survivor saves another survivor and they both have ds what do you do? let them go? Seems pretty dumb ngl. Thats the issue most killers have, not the fact they can't tunnel, but the fact is punishes killers for not tunneling because if they use it endgame thats a free escape. Also 6-8 pops can't actually compare to even 2 ds, let alone 4. And the fact that there's an obession or not makes you change your playstyle should tell you about the perk.
Then I'm all for making DS a true anti-tunneling perk. Remove the timer and add different conditions, like deactivation on interactions and hooking another survivors while not slugged.
How do you get ds'd two times during the endgame collapse? Before the unhooked survivor has time to run away from the hook and heal so that he can even attempt saving another hooked survivor, the DS timer will go down in no time. IF the survivor has DS in the first place.
And the fact that an obsession is in the game or not should not change your "playstyle" in any way. You're just admitting that if there is no obsession killers will mostly tunnel without any worries. Truly makes you wonder why survivors equip the perk so much.
There have been a lot of times recently that I haven't gotten to use pop more than 1 or 2 times per match. As soon as I'm carrying to the hook 1 gen gets done then another while running to it. Even at 60 seconds a gen needs to have progression to regress it. Idk if it's a strategy with SWF or just bad luck. Sorry to quote you as this is mostly unrelated... I didn't notice til near the end.
"How many times do you get ds'd 2 times in EGC" Only one is needed get a comfirmed escape. Let me give you an example, you hook survivor 1 but they insta save, you hook the unhooker (survivor 2). Then then he goes for the unhook with bt and then you have 2 people with DS. If the door is open they both get out scot free if they are near a door. And some killers will tunnel if there's no obession, just like how survivors will do the gens over friends tactic to get most of the gens done under 4 minutes because the killer didn't run gen slowdown. Both sides take advantage over the other's weaknesses. But the difference is the survivors who take advantage do it everygame regardless of the circumstances, while killers have to respect ds even if there an obsession. For example i watched an otz video post the final ds rework and he had to respect ds on all the survivor due to an OoO, turns out no one had ds and it was the OoO that made the obession status, forcing a killer to play in a way that is detrimental to themselves, hell even when i don't tunnel i have to worry about that 50 sec ds and leave them on the ground because i pick them up i get cucked and lose most of my momentum if the hooked survivor gets saved. So really ds should be a true anti tunnel perk and not a perk where you can make ballsy plays that would get you killed without ds.
clearly u have 2 much bias in ur answer.