New Ruin is better than Old Ruin
Hot Take: Ruin wasn’t nerfed it’s better now.
Before the Survivors would all go on a totem hunt and cleanse it early in the match because it was so powerful that it rarely stayed in play long enough to get more value than a perk like Corrupt Intervention. Good luck with your Ruin lasting longer than two minutes at red ranks.
Now, sometimes Survivors think they can just power through Ruin and don’t look for it, which can cost them multiple generators worth of progress in regression and effectively make them need to complete 7-8 generators instead of just 5.
Basically, old Ruin was so oppressive that Survivors pretty much insta-cleansed it and it was a #1 priority. New Ruin isn’t seen as such an immediate threat so it can do some serious damage and lasts much longer usually.
Comments
no
Amazing argument!
old ruin only worked against purple ranks and below, get real. New ruin works no matter how skilled the survivor is. And with upcoming undying hex ruin will just see more value at red ranks. Calling it now undying ruin will be meta.
By definition that means its weaker.
If a perk is causing the Survivor to change their actions in a way that makes the perk irrelevant then you just got max value out of the perk.
Like here's what I mean. Imagine you are a Survivor and new ruin is in play. Lets also say you are right and because of the insta-cleanse old ruin ends up being less impactful.
Here's the line of reasoning:
3 follows because the only reason to not prioritize totem cleansing is if premise 1 is false, and if premise 1 is false then by not prioritizing a totem hunt you are able to do better than not, which according to this post wasn't the case before.
Same reasoning applies to the Pig's ruleset number 1 btw. If it really did make RBT's weaker by making Survivors prioritize gens, then a Survivor could just pretend they were under ruleset number 1's effects and act accordingly, even though they aren't.
Even if some Survivors make the wrong choice for the wrong reasons, we don't evaluate perks with the premise of the Survivors we are facing being bad, because bad Survivors don't need good perks to be beaten in the first place.
Do keep in mind that this counterargument only applies to this specific type of argument, if you have an argument about why new ruins actual effect is stronger than old ruins then feel free to bring that up to discuss, but that's different than saying Survivor's willingness to counterplay the perk makes the perk stronger/weaker.
It sounds like your argument is that bad Survivors will be screwed over by New Ruin.
nope
Well, if good Survivors don't care about New Ruin, then it doesn't matter to me that bad Survivors are impacted by it.
i think it is weaker but the rework did a lot for the health for the game and it did need to be changed, a slowdown perk that works that effectively shouldnt be passive
Old ruin: you are guaranteed to get value of this perk because if everyone is on the totem Hunt no one is doing Gens.
New ruin: 3 people do Gens and 1 person goes to a gen and finds a totem next to it. So Basically you arent guaranteed value out of this perk
New ruin is better when it stays up compared to old ruin. But looking at the totemspots i doubt that Will happen a lot of the time
I agree, new Ruin is much more oppressive. Being able to push survivors off gens (either directly or by indirect pressure) and have the gen regress more quickly and without the need for kicking is a really strong effect and can absolutely be the difference between a win and a loss.
I think if new Ruin were as ubiquitous as old Ruin, survivors would go hunting the totem at the start of the match like they used to. The fact that it’s underrated contributes to its strength because since it isn’t run all the time, people don’t run around and look for it and the totem tends to last a little longer and have a greater effect as a result.
no: old ruin granted a passive slowdown no matter what you were doing, while new ruin grants an active slowdown, you need to take survivors off the gens (plus it kinda helps tracking, like not seeing sparks means someone is working on that gen); but old ruin was better by definition.
also, you're argument is that survivors play badly against new ruin, which doesn't necessarily mean new ruin is better.
Nah. That's just bad Survivors being impacted by New Ruin. :P
Old ruin was massively overrated at high ranks, bordering on useless placebo. New ruin is overall more rewarding and you can potentially get more value out of it, the only problem with it is that its not good on every killer and well, its a Hex.
New Ruin being seen as less of a threat by some people doesn't make it better or worse than Old Ruin.
It just means the people who don't try to find the totem suffer the effect of it. If people do look for it and break it early it's every bit as useless as Old Ruin.
You can't hinge an argument on something being better or worse than something else by assuming people AREN'T going to counter the first something.
-
As for the title, no, New Ruin is not better than Old Ruin.
New Ruin activates when Survivors are pushed off generators.
Old Ruin is constantly active and forces Survivors to hit Great Skillchecks in order to not regress their generator and pause it's progression for a moment.
They are both Hex totems and rely on totem spawns to be effective.
If a Killer cannot pressure Survivors, they will get no benefit from New Ruin. People will slam generators as fast as if they were running Thrill of the Hunt instead.
If a Killer cannot pressure Survivors, they get benefit from Old Ruin. Even if you're chasing just one guy, you're slowing down the three other people by limiting the progression they get from constant Great Skillchecks (IIRC without Ruin Great Skillchecks gave 1-2 seconds of free progression) or by regressing their generator when they only get a Good Skillcheck or fail the Skillcheck completely.
If a Killer can pressure Survivors, they get great benefit from New Ruin. Generators regress automatically and at double speed. Provided the Killer can keep Survivors from working on the generator, it will quickly lose a lot of progression.
If a Killer can pressure Survivors, they get no benefit from Old Ruin. However, pressured Survivors are already making no progress towards their objective, so the Killer is already benefiting; just not additionally from using Ruin.
-
In conclusion, New Ruin helps mobile, strong-in-chase, or instadown Killers that can reliably down and actually threaten Healthy Survivors maintain pressure that they are building anyway. Old Ruin helped every Killer get free pressure just by using the perk; either from slowing down generator progression or from making people look for the totem instead of doing a generator.
I don't know about you, but I don't think a perk becoming less beneficial (not useless, obviously - any Killer can generate pressure) to a number of the Killer cast doesn't constitute becoming 'better'.
You can make an argument for 'as good', but you cannot say a change that makes something less versatile makes it 'better'.
no
I tend to agree. As someone who mostly plays killer I was very afraid when they announced the Ruin change, because I thought I needed Ruin to slow down gens enough to win. I was pleasantly surprised to discover that this was not the case, and that I could now create builds with 4 perks rather than 3 perks and Ruin. Sometimes it's nice to be proven wrong.
When I do use new Ruin (and when it's not destroyed in 10 seconds) it doesn't just slow gens, it regresses them even more effectively than Pop if you're playing well and generating map pressure.
Interestingly, I've seen a lot of weaker survivors recently who are afraid to let go of M1 and lose their gen progress, so they will basically let their teammates die while they complete their OBJ. All I can say to this is: Jesus I hope we get a working MMR soon.